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Would Skibidi Toilet be allowed to have pages on Vs Wiki
- Thread starter Tllmbrg
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I already have a draft in my sandbox, I will be the destroyer of worlds
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@Promestein @Wokistan @Agnaa @DarkGrath @Armorchompy @LordGriffin1000 just so we can have some staff opinion
Agnaa
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From what I know, it'd come down to the licensing of the GMod assets they use.
If they're actually copyrighted assets that they're technically not allowed to use in that way, it shouldn't be allowed due to that making it fanfiction.
If they're assets that were made royalty free or whatever, then the original story and general notability would allow it to get pages.
This sort of thing is why I think most SFM stuff wouldn't be allowed to have profiles.
EDIT: Having looked into it more and thought about it more, I think its widespread use of copyrighted music (while it is a mashup, it's still of two songs they don't own the rights to), and Facepunch's fan content policy give me little confidence that this is all open source. So I think it belongs on fc/oc.
If they're actually copyrighted assets that they're technically not allowed to use in that way, it shouldn't be allowed due to that making it fanfiction.
If they're assets that were made royalty free or whatever, then the original story and general notability would allow it to get pages.
This sort of thing is why I think most SFM stuff wouldn't be allowed to have profiles.
EDIT: Having looked into it more and thought about it more, I think its widespread use of copyrighted music (while it is a mashup, it's still of two songs they don't own the rights to), and Facepunch's fan content policy give me little confidence that this is all open source. So I think it belongs on fc/oc.
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No, we don't.
As for the question itself, besides using two (I think) copyrighted songs, there's also the fact that a lot of recurring characters in the series are just Half-Life characters who are stuck in a toilet.
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This is a rather specific case that I don't believe our editing rules give a great deal of insight on. I share some of the same concerns as Agnaa, in the sense that it reuses assets from another verse, but I believe the setting itself is otherwise wholly original. at least, to the staggeringly little extent I'm willing to actually research this. I don't believe an original work can be passed as fanfiction on the basis of reused assets. Because of this, I don't believe anything in our rules would objectively disallow Skibidi Toilet profiles. But for the sake of argument, I would like to draw attention to this editing rule in particular:
"Preferably avoid adding character profiles that may be inappropriate or perceived to be in poor taste. This may include characters, weapons, etcetera, that are ill-suited for a statistics-indexing wiki, due to having no reliable feats, or ones from media which may be too controversial or otherwise unnecessary to be featured. This includes pages that would strictly be written as a joke, and as such more suitably belong in the Joke Battles wiki."
What this rule suggests is that, even if a profile may be of a legitimate source, it can be considered inappropriate for the main wiki if we deem it to be a joke page. Ultimately, I am not the arbiter of what would and would not be considered a "joke page". However, in this instance, I'm forced to ask what possible value we believe Skibidi Toilet would actually have as a verse on the wiki - if it wasn't for the fact that it's intentionally obscenely 'humorous' and called Skibidi Toilet, would we even give a passing thought to adding this verse to the wiki?
It's my honest opinion that the only perceived value this verse would have is in the fact that it would be funny to have it. If we are only making a page because it would be funny to have it, I'd firmly consider that to be a "joke page". As such, even if it is technically a legitimate verse, a profile which exists only because we'd find it funny (or for the 'meme value' of it) is, as the rules suggest, better suited to the Joke Battles Wiki by design.
"Preferably avoid adding character profiles that may be inappropriate or perceived to be in poor taste. This may include characters, weapons, etcetera, that are ill-suited for a statistics-indexing wiki, due to having no reliable feats, or ones from media which may be too controversial or otherwise unnecessary to be featured. This includes pages that would strictly be written as a joke, and as such more suitably belong in the Joke Battles wiki."
What this rule suggests is that, even if a profile may be of a legitimate source, it can be considered inappropriate for the main wiki if we deem it to be a joke page. Ultimately, I am not the arbiter of what would and would not be considered a "joke page". However, in this instance, I'm forced to ask what possible value we believe Skibidi Toilet would actually have as a verse on the wiki - if it wasn't for the fact that it's intentionally obscenely 'humorous' and called Skibidi Toilet, would we even give a passing thought to adding this verse to the wiki?
It's my honest opinion that the only perceived value this verse would have is in the fact that it would be funny to have it. If we are only making a page because it would be funny to have it, I'd firmly consider that to be a "joke page". As such, even if it is technically a legitimate verse, a profile which exists only because we'd find it funny (or for the 'meme value' of it) is, as the rules suggest, better suited to the Joke Battles Wiki by design.
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We allow Perppa Pig and Barney & Friends on site, who would index that stuff if not purely for the sake of it being funny to rate baby cartoon characters
Agnaa
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I don't believe an original work can be passed as fanfiction on the basis of reused assets.
I do; I think it's the only coherent way to actually define and disqualify fanfiction. When intellectual property is used for new works.
I do; I think it's the only coherent way to actually define and disqualify fanfiction. When intellectual property is used for new works.
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You've obviously already seen what I said on Discord, but just to publicly reiterate it - I've never been involved in the Peppa Pig and Barney discussions, but I imagine this interpretation of the rules would apply the same way to them.
I would argue there is a difference between our typical definition of a fanfiction and what Skibidi Toilet does. A fanfiction is a fictional work that is set in a pre-existing verse. Skibidi Toilet cuts up models contained within GMod for its own purposes, many of which are from Half-Life - this much is true. But it's not set in Half-Life. It's an original setting. I would not call it a Half-Life fanfiction by any stretch.
You could perhaps argue separately that we shouldn't allow verses that rely on reused assets, but I wouldn't consider that to make it a fanfiction.
Agnaa
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You can't define fanfiction just by its setting. Otherwise fanfictions which take characters from multiple verses to an original setting wouldn't count.
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If we want to talk in highly specific terms about what does and doesn't qualify, then, we can use the Wikipedia definition of it.
"Fan fiction or fanfiction (also abbreviated to fan fic, fanfic, fic or FF) is fictional writing written in an amateur capacity by fans, unauthorized by, but based on an existing work of fiction."
The important qualifying element here is that it is "based on an existing work of fiction". Skibidi Toilet is not based on Half-Life, or anything else for that matter. The existence of reused assets is, as far as I can tell, purely a convenience measure due to the series being made with GMod, and the fictional story would remain the same as it is now even if other models were used in their place.
If we assert that the Half-Life models are indeed protected by copyright (something which needs to be checked, to be clear), then a related term that does actually describe Skibidi Toilet is a "derivative work":
"In copyright law, a derivative work is an expressive creation that includes major copyrightable elements of a first, previously created original work (the underlying work). The derivative work becomes a second, separate work independent in form from the first."
Derivative works and fanfictions are not exactly the same as one another, but they are meaningfully similar and often overlap. I wouldn't mind extending our rules regarding fanfiction to derivative works.
Agnaa
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I think you run into some pretty iffy territory with stuff like Tails Gets Trolled. Has a bunch of original characters, an original setting, and the non-original characters act notably differently from their originals (Wily E. Coyote becomes a necromancer). But copyrighted characters were used for comedy/recognizability.
Even "based on" seems like a hard call in cases like that.
But ig changing it to "derivative works" could be appropriate phrasing.
Even "based on" seems like a hard call in cases like that.
But ig changing it to "derivative works" could be appropriate phrasing.
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I can see the concern. It may be worth trying to formally operationalise the term "fanfiction" for wiki usage, as to avoid any potential doubts around what does or does not fit the criteria. That should preferably be left for a different thread, however.
Right now, there's a couple of outstanding concerns; for one, whether the models used in Skibidi Toilet would fall under copyright, and two, the interpretation of the "joke profiles" rule. Tllm mentioned that the latter has implications for other verses currently on the wiki, so if we settle on an interpretation there, whatever we settle on would set an important precedent.
In regard to the former, the little information I can find about it would seem to imply that video game models can indeed be copyrighted and considered the property of the creators of the game, though the rather liberal usage of models from Valve games in other media makes it seem as though Valve doesn't firmly enforce this. I am curious in passing if Wok knows enough about U.S. copyright law to provide input here.
Right now, there's a couple of outstanding concerns; for one, whether the models used in Skibidi Toilet would fall under copyright, and two, the interpretation of the "joke profiles" rule. Tllm mentioned that the latter has implications for other verses currently on the wiki, so if we settle on an interpretation there, whatever we settle on would set an important precedent.
In regard to the former, the little information I can find about it would seem to imply that video game models can indeed be copyrighted and considered the property of the creators of the game, though the rather liberal usage of models from Valve games in other media makes it seem as though Valve doesn't firmly enforce this. I am curious in passing if Wok knows enough about U.S. copyright law to provide input here.
Ayewale
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Using two copyrighted songs doesn't count for much. Although the half-life characters may be an issue, I don't really see why it wouldn't pass considering we have entire machinima verses.
Also we did have a Logan Paul profile up for quite some time, and the reason why it was deleted is because it was deemed too controversial. What was important is that just because we don't like something (a bias that I suspect is gonna play into this skibidi toilet discourse) doesn't mean it can't be here.
This is a perfect representation of the "we don't like this thing" bias.
What on earth does it mean for a page to even have a 'perceived value' on the wiki? We have never created pages based off how much value it adds to the wiki: our indexing process is only concerned with whether the work is derivative, whether it even counts as a character/story/verse and whether it is collaborative.
The bolded line referring to pages written as a joke means exactly that: pages written as a joke. As in, the point of the article isn't to properly index a verse, but for ***** and giggles. The JBW has no respect towards actual lore, accuracy, research or validity because those are secondary to being funny. That is what makes a joke page. A Skibidy Toilet verse wouldn't be written as a joke by virtue of the fact that it can be properly indexed. So long as the page is factual and the verse/character legitimate, who cares?
The last sentence is particularly bad:
Ignoring how this is entirely subjective and hence ill-suited to any type of wiki policy, by this logic we would delete virtually every Toon Force character of the site. People are invested in Spongebob vsbattling because it's funny as **** to have him be a universal reality-warper. People are invested in the Looney Tunes because Bugs Bunny blowing up suns is pretty funny. Even moving beyond cartoons, you would end up nuking Kirby as well: Kirby powerscaling is so funny it's become a somewhat common meme in a gaming community as a whole.
In general I find the idea of deleting a profile because of intent rather than content really bad: very few people are here because we're scientifically obsessed with the true power of kids' show characters. If it is a 'technically legitimate verse', then it should be on the site without exception.
We really shouldn't clog up this thread with debates on whether a page is a joke or not because we think it adds no value oof
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go to joke battles wiki
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No.
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Again, no we do not have entire Machinima verses. Red vs Blue is its own can of worms that I'm not too familiar with.
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We allow RvB, presumably for reasons of notability. I do think Skibidi Toilet is also probably fine, but RvB does have physical releases. I think this is a silly benchmark to compare a youtube shorts series to, but I guess you can make that that argument.
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Rooster Teeth has made deals with Microsoft with regards to what they can do with the series. The series goes far and away past what Microsoft currently lists as acceptable in their Game Content Usage Rules.
They allow RvB to exist as it does because of those business deals.
This belongs on FC/OC.
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Ayewale
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The first 10 shorts of Skibidi Toiilet alone have over one billion views; if this is not notable I am not sure what else is. It is by far more popular than a lot of the media already being indexed. Using physical releases as a barometer is incredibly arbitrary.
This is an actual good reason to not allow it into the wiki so I can stand by it.
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How is it fanfiction? I never knew it is based on an original fiction, and it is simply a self-created joking plot.
Also, is it really indexable? (I only saw one short video and I already got disgusted by it)
Also, is it really indexable? (I only saw one short video and I already got disgusted by it)
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It is very much indexable, there are legitimate feats and abilities and if you have been keeping up with thye series it has been getting rather crazy.
In terms of licensing of VALVE Models and usage of them... SFM and GMod content have existed for ages on the internet and VALVe has shown no issues with people using their assets to make monetizable content. May be better to actually look into the licensing but I don't believe it counts under fanfiction since it is its own plot just using GMod Assets
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If it just used stuff like royalty free assets like default assets found in RPGMaker or random site you can buy assets off of I would find it to be fine but if these assets aren't royalty free and have certain legalities to them then nah.
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Well, it seems that our understanding of fanfiction might vary, but in my view, this plot lacks an original fiction for it to be considered a fanfiction.
Nope, but can you list few? I stopped watching after the first short video.
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Depending on the toilet we have stuff from ripping heads, swallowing people, tanking missiles, destroying aircrafts, and so on
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Giant Kaiju like beings with lasers, mind control and other shit. It's really hard to explain because of the absurdity of the series but yeah it's there
The plot isn't given throughout a narrator of something or through actual dialogue but there is certainly a plot there and it is certainly original and unique (as weird as it is)
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But yeah, my suggestion to see if this can get added to VSwiki? See what VALVes licensing rules and other stuff are because that's the make or break. (I say VALVe not Facepunch because it is my current understanding that this series is made with SFM not GMod)
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One of the reasons.
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Also, some say that "it's ok to use Half Life models" or something like that.
But let's think, what if it was the heads of other characters?
If instead of being heads from half life, they were from dragon ball or mortal kombat? The same series, but with the heads of some of those two verses?
Would they still think they would be readable?
Both half life and DB and MK heads still fall under copyright. Even though the plot and context of everything in this series has nothing to do with the characters
But let's think, what if it was the heads of other characters?
If instead of being heads from half life, they were from dragon ball or mortal kombat? The same series, but with the heads of some of those two verses?
Would they still think they would be readable?
Both half life and DB and MK heads still fall under copyright. Even though the plot and context of everything in this series has nothing to do with the characters
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There are camera heads, sound box heads and television heads.
It usually has more powers involving technology, such as weapons and mind control devices.
The characters with the most hax would be the TV heads. They have mind control, some can burn you with that same eye contact and they can also teleport.
There are the giant versions that have heavy weapons and so on.
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Tllmbrg/SandboxSkibidi
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As I said before, the mobile game would be allowable imo due to it actually using original models as opposed to default GMod models (which I'm pretty sure would either come from Half Life or Team Fortress 2), but not the videos themselves.
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Royalties are irrelevant in the face of general licensing and EULAs.
Companies can just change licensing rules on a whim so lets avoid that as a reason.
Companies can just change licensing rules on a whim so lets avoid that as a reason.
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Mobile game? Aren't there several Skibidi Toilet games because of the popularity?
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I don't think notability is an issue here.
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In my capacity as the member who is responsible for reviewing and revising all the guidelines of inclusion of verses/pages in this fandom, I'd like to point out that this peculiar one incorporates Gary's Mod models. It's important to note that using these models is permissible, as long as they refrain from making any false claims of being the official ones.
As for people who is asking of our definition of "fanfiction".
According to our rules:
Thus, the inclusion of this verse is not eligible.
As for the game itself: If it has plot, is index-able, legitimate (most likely), I suppose it is fine
Obviously, I don't make choices here or decisions, but I want to point out from our standards/guidelines viewpoint.
I won't comment on the “the verse is not a joke or has an actual unique plot” since everyone can perceive the “jokingly manner” in the verse differently, neither the notability, since it is out of question.
I personally find it disgusting and inappropriate to be a part of VS Battles Wiki. However, given that other verses exhibit similar characteristics, this particular one may not be peculiarly controversial.
It is not fan-fiction in the sense of “it's based on an existing verse/plot”, however their materials are not official. Unless I am mistaken, they also don't have rights to music either.
As for people who is asking of our definition of "fanfiction".
Also looking from reliable page; they also use Half-Life 2 and Counter-Strike: Source assets. He also created a game out of it which I am not aware if he still uses the assets on the game.
According to our rules:
The bolded part is essential and relevant here; they have no official permission. They are allowed to as long as it is claimed to be unofficial.
Thus, the inclusion of this verse is not eligible.
As for the game itself: If it has plot, is index-able, legitimate (most likely), I suppose it is fine
Obviously, I don't make choices here or decisions, but I want to point out from our standards/guidelines viewpoint.
I won't comment on the “the verse is not a joke or has an actual unique plot” since everyone can perceive the “jokingly manner” in the verse differently, neither the notability, since it is out of question.
I personally find it disgusting and inappropriate to be a part of VS Battles Wiki. However, given that other verses exhibit similar characteristics, this particular one may not be peculiarly controversial.
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I was making the argument that it should be allowed to be on the wiki. It's super notable, yes.
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