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Tier 1 GOH

Fixxed said:
Where the prove about "less real" in here?
Click to expand...
Less real in this case is that everyone that exists in the lower world only exists as contents of the tablets to mori. They can never ever interact with mori except they attain nirvana too and mori has complete power over said world too
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
Man.. I was expecting a direct statement of viewing universes as a flat tablet not some shoddy visual evidence.
Click to expand...
There might not be a direct statement but it is heavily implied that the lower wold space-time is the tablets
And author's implications is more or less equal to a direct statement
 
You have extrapolated so much out of so little in the final chapters of the series but this is taking it too far.

Just to remind everyone, nowhere within the series were the tablets ever given spoken word context. Anything we've said about them was gathered through implication and assumption. Occam's Razor has been ignored up until this point but I'm enforcing it as of now.

We do not know shit about the tablets or how they fuction beyond one scene where Mori projected himself into the past via looking through one. Assuming anything else is an egregious exaggeration of what we can actually see from the scene. I hope this is enough to warrant my disapproval of the proposal and subsequent advice to stop bringing this subject up lest I get it topic banned.
 
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Godlike said:
Less real in this case is that everyone that exists in the lower world only exists as contents of the tablets to mori. They can never ever interact with mori except they attain nirvana too and mori has complete power over said world too
Click to expand...
Not a kind of less real
 
Sir Ovens and azontr make the most sense to me. Disagree.

To put the standards in perspective, Athena from God of War outright says she "ascended to a higher plane of existence" that "grants her power beyond everyone and everything" as per the developers. She's still 2-C. Tier 1 requires a lot more evidence for it, especially more evidence than just visual extrapolation with zero statements.
 
I'm sorry for being a bit off topic here, but considering PowerToScale's Cosmology blog, is it possible to upgrade Mori to 2C or 2B in a separate CRT? (By the way, the Cosmology blog has its thread and everything, but at one point it simply died out, so I don't know if it was ultimately accepted or not)

I can see Godlike's view on low1C Mori, but if there's nothing to go off of aside from the tablets thing, it is understandable that it's not enough proof.
 
Disagree based off Ovens reasons

It was explicitly discussed and agreed in an earlier GOH crt that tier 1 based off these reason do. not. hold and we should refrain from that

You were part of that crt
 
karma said:
I'm sorry for being a bit off topic here, but considering PowerToScale's Cosmology blog, is it possible to upgrade Mori to 2C or 2B in a separate CRT? (By the way, the Cosmology blog has its thread and everything, but at one point it simply died out, so I don't know if it was ultimately accepted or not)

I can see Godlike's view on low1C Mori, but if there's nothing to go off of aside from the tablets thing, it is understandable that it's not enough proof.
Click to expand...
2-C possibly, but a 2-B is a no go. 2-B requires 1001 to any finite number higher, which GoH doesn't have.
 
Robo said:
i need to correct this

viewing a 2-A multiverse as a flat tablet is qualitative superiority, that's enough proof but GOH doesn't have a 2-A cosmology so uh
Click to expand...
Yes. However, it's also in the criteria that you need to see a L2C - 2A structure as such to qualify. GOH meets the criteria.
 
Sir_Ovens said:
Just to remind everyone, nowhere within the series were the tablets ever given spoken word context. Anything we've said about them was gathered through implication and assumption. Occam's Razor has been ignored up until this point but I'm enforcing it as of now.
Click to expand...
I am sorry Ovens but I disagree with your use of Occams razor here. If the implications are solid, I don't see a reason as to why they shouldn't suffice. You are making your argument on Just lack of statements while ignoring the the implications of the visual representation. If the tablets were just a means as to which Mori can travel to the past, then there is no reason for grabbing them resulting in the trembling of the very space which he is holding.
 
Thing is that tier 1 as a whole isn't a tier that can be obtained only with visual representation, especially with its quite high standards compared to other tiers, even stuff like Bugs Bunny being portrayed as an author isn't used as tier 1 evidence, for example, out of beign far too vague on his proper relation to the "normal" setting in this situation to begin with.

Implications can be used as an argument, sure, but if you rely too much on implications it's starting to be less "common sense" at best, but more like straight up assumptive headcanon.
 
Sir_Ovens said:
You have extrapolated so much out of so little in the final chapters of the series but this is taking it too far.

Just to remind everyone, nowhere within the series were the tablets ever given spoken word context. Anything we've said about them was gathered through implication and assumption. Occam's Razor has been ignored up until this point but I'm enforcing it as of now.
Click to expand...
Sir_Ovens said:
We do not know shit about the tablets or how they fuction beyond one scene where Mori projected himself into the past via looking through one. Assuming anything else is an egregious exaggeration of what we can actually see from the scene. I hope this is enough to warrant my disapproval of the proposal and subsequent advice to stop bringing this subject up lest I get it topic banned.
Click to expand...
It's not an "assumption" it's an obvious display of mori's superiority. He became an HDE being, saw the past through a tablet,was stated to oversee the whole of creation and sees the future too.
The only thing which I used implications to back up is the space-time being within the tablets which is within reason and not "reaching" as to everything i said aligns and tallys with ive shown everything else has their own scan attached to them
Implications are only considered headcanon when they are too excessive and do not Tally with what a person's says.
As I've said before a direct statement is great but a solid and obvious implication is just as good
And since thus is possibly the last time anyone would make anything tier goh or tablet based
If you'd agree we can debate it on discord or I can try to convince you on there and if you prefer here it's fine too
 
Bobsican said:
Thing is that tier 1 as a whole isn't a tier that can be obtained only with visual representation, especially with its quite high standards compared to other tiers, even stuff like Bugs Bunny being portrayed as an author isn't used as tier 1 evidence, for example, out of beign far too vague on his proper relation to the "normal" setting in this situation to begin with.

Implications can be used as an argument, sure, but if you rely too much on implications it's starting to be less "common sense" at best, but more like straight up assumptive headcanon.
Click to expand...
I get where you're coming from and I haven't seen the bugs bunny stuff you talked about
Like I told ovens I'm not relying on implications only. They only implication I made was via the tablets being the space-time which is within reason with what has been portrayed and the intention of the author.
And I can assure you there's no headcanon in my argument in any way
 
Sniper670 said:
Disagree based off Ovens reasons

It was explicitly discussed and agreed in an earlier GOH crt that tier 1 based off these reason do. not. hold and we should refrain from that

You were part of that crt
Click to expand...
I can't remember being part of such crt
 
Planck69 said:
Sir Ovens and azontr make the most sense to me. Disagree.

To put the standards in perspective, Athena from God of War outright says she "ascended to a higher plane of existence" that "grants her power beyond everyone and everything" as per the developers. She's still 2-C. Tier 1 requires a lot more evidence for it, especially more evidence than just visual extrapolation with zero statements.
Click to expand...
The example you made here is just a simple case of HDE which would grant you tier L2C at most going of this statement alone but I'm guessing she got 2C based of her cosmology.
But what I'm proposing here is r>f transcendence and not just HDE
 
And everyone I'd urge you to read the entire proposal before dropping an input here because from what I'm getting some of you only read a part and based it as the entirety of my argument
 
And everyone I'd urge you to read the entire proposal before dropping an input here because from what I'm getting some of you only read a part and based it as the entirety of my argument
 
Godlike said:
It's not an "assumption" it's an obvious display of mori's superiority. He became an HDE being, saw the past through a tablet,was stated to oversee the whole of creation and sees the future too.
The only thing which I used implications to back up is the space-time being within the tablets which is within reason and not "reaching" as to everything i said aligns and tallys with ive shown everything else has their own scan attached to them
Implications are only considered headcanon when they are too excessive and do not Tally with what a person's says.
As I've said before a direct statement is great but a solid and obvious implication is just as good
And since thus is possibly the last time anyone would make anything tier goh or tablet based
If you'd agree we can debate it on discord or I can try to convince you on there and if you prefer here it's fine too
Click to expand...
I'm going to be very clear with you.

He IS a higher dimensional being. This part was never in question. However, he's NOT 5D. You can have HDE and be 4D. You can see past, present, and future, AND STILL BE 4D.

Tell me what makes the tablets "snapshots" using actual evidence from the story and not using a bunch of unrelated moments to string a theory that the tablets might be whole 4D space times. Even saying it out loud sounds absurd, like why would Xanzang have multiple timelines of the exact same events that are happening in the single timeline we're reading about? At the very best assumption, each tablet is a moment in the past and Mori grabbing one projected himself like Xanzang did during his fight against Satan.

You want to know why Satan said Mori was a higher dimensional being? Because he was being protected by one. Otherwise Mujin would've been a higher dimensional being the moment he became Supreme God.

Do I have to tear this argument apart further or can we start thinking rationally?
 
Sir_Ovens said:
I'm going to be very clear with you.

He IS a higher dimensional being. This part was never in question. However, he's NOT 5D. You can have HDE and be 4D. You can see past, present, and future, AND STILL BE 4D.
Click to expand...
No one is arguing this with you
You are correct a character can be 4D and still see the past present and future fine
But mori isn't just seeing he is seeing the past,present and future as something less real to him in other words r>f and this automatically grants L1C.
Sir_Ovens said:
Tell me what makes the tablets "snapshots" using actual evidence from the story and not using a bunch of unrelated moments to string a theory that the tablets might be whole 4D space times. Even saying it out loud sounds absurd, like why would Xanzang have multiple timelines of the exact same events that are happening in the single timeline we're reading about? At the very best assumption, each tablet is a moment in the past and Mori grabbing one projected himself like Xanzang did during his fight against Satan.
Click to expand...
What????
When did I say xuangzang has has multiple space-times of one event in the story
Each tablet is a moment in the past is completely wrong because mori was stated to over see all of creation and the only way we've been shown for residents of paradise to interact with the lower world is through the tablets any other way is an assumption which equates to mori seeing the present too through the tablets
And if mori has been shown and stated to see the past and present through the tablets it wouldn't be an illogical assumption to say he also see's the future through it and I'm not even assuming here.
You keep saying my argument is filled with assumptions whereas yours has them too because when was xuangzang stated to go the past to see mori during his fight with satan?
If it wasn't stated or implied then its simply as it is xuangzang in the past which was the present gor them visited mori through the same medium which he did later on.

Also mori being 4D would mean hed still be within the 3D +1D space-time he'd possess just an extra spatial axis that gives him an advantage over the 3D beings but that's not the case for mori as he's completely transcendent over the lower world
An instance to back that up would be him (his avatar) travelling to the past while still being in the same spot he was and overseeing all of creation from paradise
Another instance would be him making everyone in the past event he was watching rumble and collapse just by moving the tablet from its original spot
Another one his him being able to fix all the dimensional cracks when he's in paradise
These are clear feats of superiority any one would understand
Sir_Ovens said:
You want to know why Satan said Mori was a higher dimensional being? Because he was being protected by one. Otherwise Mujin would've been a higher dimensional being the moment he became Supreme God.
Click to expand...
Iirc I never made reference to the scene you're referring to to prove mori's HDE I only used it to show xuangzang also possess the ability to visit the lower world via an avatar
Sir_Ovens said:
Do I have to tear this argument apart further or can we start thinking rationally?
Click to expand...
You can try
And once again the purpose of this thread is to prove r>f transcendence via mori viewing everyone in the lower world and their time as just contents of the tablets not anything else
And I advise you to read the entire argument and not just a part of it
 
Godlike said:
r>f and this automatically grants L1C.
Click to expand...
Ayo this is wrong, bro
They have to show transcendence of reality, such as creation or destruction. I think DT has already mentioned this, that R>F doesn't put you in 5D Coordinate Space.
 
As the guy who made the thread on tier 2, I can say. Unless the tablets contain entire timelines, viewing it as fiction does not get you 5D. And from what I have gathered, it does not contain timelines just records of events/time. So even if he views the tablets as fiction, that is not 5D.
Also you can be 5D without getting the low 1-C AP, we have an entire section in the FAQ explaining this, unless you have feats on that level you are not low 1-C.

TDLR; the tablets do not contain timelines so a R>F difference will not get you 5D. So I disagree
 
Just to clarify, @Sir_Ovens you employed Occams razor here on the Logicality of the Tablets being certain points in time. Following that Logicality, the entirety of the tablets together would represent the entire timeline, as Mori can see the future, present and past from these, right?
 
Lewis said:
Ayo this is wrong, bro
They have to show transcendence of reality, such as creation or destruction. I think DT has already mentioned this, that R>F doesn't put you in 5D Coordinate Space.
Click to expand...
I checked all FAQ on it and the page on r>f before I made this thread
Destruction or creation isn't needed when r>f is implemented over an L2C-2A cosmology
The character automatically moves to L1C
What you're talking about is HDE and HD AP
HDE≠ automatic HD ap
 
Godlike said:
I checked all FAQ on it and the page on r>f before I made this thread
Destruction or creation isn't needed when r>f is implemented over an L2C-2A cosmology
The character automatically moves to L1C
What you're talking about is HDE and HD AP
HDE≠ automatic HD ap
Click to expand...
I think you should read pein is explanation because he had explained it in detail.
 
Godlike said:
I checked all FAQ on it and the page on r>f before I made this thread
Destruction or creation isn't needed when r>f is implemented over an L2C-2A cosmology
The character automatically moves to L1C
What you're talking about is HDE and HD AP
HDE≠ automatic HD ap
Click to expand...
I think the problem that you must clear in here is

WHERE IS THE R>F DIFFERENCE ON THIS VERSE
 
Fixxed said:
I think the problem that you must clear in here is

WHERE IS THE R>F DIFFERENCE ON THIS VERSE
Click to expand...
Literally the people of the lower world existing only as content of the tablets to mori
And him watching them akin to someone watching a movie
Both of which portray those of the lower world as less real
It's as simple as that
 
Mori said:
Just to clarify, @Sir_Ovens you employed Occams razor here on the Logicality of the Tablets being certain points in time. Following that Logicality, the entirety of the tablets together would represent the entire timeline, as Mori can see the future, present and past from these, right?
Click to expand...
The problem with the tablets are that we are never told what they are or what they do. Based purely on what we're shown, they only offer a view into the past when Mori picked one up. Is the projection Ahan saw in the past due to Mori looking at her via the tablet? Is it the passive effect of him transcending time and he's projecting himself via his own power and the tablet is literally just a view into the past? Either or can be true but we just don't know. As such, trying to derive literal reality fiction transcendence when we can't even prove what Mori is doing in that scene is asinine.
 
Godlike said:
Literally the people of the lower world existing only as content of the tablets to mori
And him watching them akin to someone watching a movie
Both of which portray those of the lower world as less real
It's as simple as that
Click to expand...
Actually show me scans where any of what you said here is conveyed to us in any meaningful way from the story.

Never never never was it ever stated that there was a "higher" or "lower" world in GoH. You cannot even begin to form a R/F argument if you can't even demonstrate a higher/lower narrative analogy from the story.
 
Godlike said:
Literally the people of the lower world existing only as content of the tablets to mori
And him watching them akin to someone watching a movie
Both of which portray those of the lower world as less real
It's as simple as that
Click to expand...
It not R>F difference
I can watch something but not make me more real than what i wacth. And there are no in your scan prove "akin to someone watching a movie", we not take a just arbitary and ambiguous image that show someone act like he watching a movie as literal, it can just he wacth them. If you cannot prove it then it just hyperbool
 
Sir_Ovens said:
The problem with the tablets are that we are never told what they are or what they do. Based purely on what we're shown, they only offer a view into the past when Mori picked one up. Is the projection Ahan saw in the past due to Mori looking at her via the tablet? Is it the passive effect of him transcending time and he's projecting himself via his own power and the tablet is literally just a view into the past? Either or can be true but we just don't know. As such, trying to derive literal reality fiction transcendence when we can't even prove what Mori is doing in that scene is asinine.
Click to expand...
If am not mistaking, XuanZang defined those to be the point where Space and Time overlap. And she made this statement after Mori had pondered over what he was holding. So it's shown she was talking about the Tablets themselves. On the case of the avatar/ projection, we have only seen this instance from two people, that being XuanZang and Mori and both being Inhabitants of Nirvana. Mori has demonstrated the mode of projection by being interactions with the tablets and there have been no contradictions to this. And as I pointed out before, I see no reason for the author to attribute interaction with these tables affecting the 3D world in two ways (1 Being the trembling, 2 being the avatar projected), if he meant for them to be just a means of viewing the universe. If that was the case, then Mori wouldn't have qualified for HDE as that would be just Precognition, which in this case it's not.
 
Mori said:
If am not mistaking, XuanZang defined those to be the point where Space and Time overlap. And she made this statement after Mori had pondered over what he was holding. So it's shown she was talking about the Tablets themselves. On the case of the avatar/ projection, we have only seen this instance from two people, that being XuanZang and Mori and both being Inhabitants of Nirvana. Mori has demonstrated the mode of projection by being interactions with the tablets and there have been no contradictions to this. And as I pointed out before, I see no reason for the author to attribute interaction with these tables affecting the 3D world in two ways (1 Being the trembling, 2 being the avatar projected), if he meant for them to be just a means of viewing the universe. If that was the case, then Mori wouldn't have qualified for HDE as that would be just Precognition, which in this case it's not.
Click to expand...
I'd like to remind you that Mujin at that point of time was actively causing global destruction. The shaking can be explained away using that logic.

As for the comment about space and time overlapping, it's never outright inferred that she meant the tablets. I initially even thought she was talking about the place they were at, which was Nirvana. In fact, saying the tablets being the thing she was referring to tears down Mori being higher dimensional since our current profiles assume Nirvana is the thing Xanzang was referring to, not the tablets.
 
Sir_Ovens said:
I'd like to remind you that Mujin at that point of time was actively causing global destruction. The shaking can be explained away using that logic.

As for the comment about space and time overlapping, it's never outright inferred that she meant the tablets. I initially even thought she was talking about the place they were at, which was Nirvana. In fact, saying the tablets being the thing she was referring to tears down Mori being higher dimensional since our current profiles assume Nirvana is the thing Xanzang was referring to, not the tablets.
Click to expand...
Not really, it doesn't. I didn't know about the former reasons to why Mori got HDE until I saw Prince of Pains CRT. However, I think it was clear she was referring to the Tablet as where space and time overlap. As I sent above, she never said a word until Mori pondered on what He was holding, hence her telling him that it's a point where space time overlaps. As for the HDE, it doesn't tear it down though, she further explains what Nirvana is which which I believe is the reason for Mori qualification on his Page. Either way you look at it, the tablets where inferred to be points in spacetime with Nirvana being the place Mori attained. If we follow that logically, then its pretty obvious that the collection of those tabs make up the timeline. That would still be a form of R>F for Mori in this case.
 
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