Mashle revision (Invariable Railgun)

LIFE_OF_KING · Mar 3, 2022

Okay, in summary the goal is to get this feat accepted:

Mashle - Invariable Railgun

vsbattles.fandom.com

The argument for this not being accepted is for the fact that "Nothing suggests that the projectiles would pulverize an area that large, or that the shockwaves it produces have a range of hundreds of kilometers". However, that is an ignorant thing to say. In the scan used in the statement Lévis is explaining how his spell works, elaborating on how the projectile is cast through magnetism, then states specifically about the speed and then describes the potency of his magic. It is an explicit line of reasoning that the author has created

Explains the physics of the spell -> Elaborates on the speed of the projectile -> Describes the power of the attack

The argument of "the destruction was not even 50 meters" is not valid, since magic in Mashle follows the logic of the inverse square law (Somewhat, at least). Where the smaller the concentrated area of magic, the greater the potency distributed on your opponent. Therefore, the attack having a small area when is used against a human target is not a solid argument

That's all.

EDIT: The raws are more specific

いっこくこの力は一国を滅ぼすこともたやすい...

This power could easily destroy a country...

AnAverageUsername · Mar 3, 2022

Following

~~Maybe this will incline people to read Mashle~~

KingTempest · Mar 3, 2022

following, not too sure about context, i don't seem like the best person for this

AnAverageUsername · Mar 4, 2022

KingTempest said:
following, not too sure about context, i don't seem like the best person for this

If you want more context, Levis was flexing about his Railgun, going on a monologue about how his spell can "match the Divine Visionaries" as well as how powerful and fast it is. Like seriously he was obsessed with how fast it was.
~~Kind of a recurring thing in Mashle~~

KingTempest · Mar 4, 2022

KobsterHope07 · Mar 4, 2022

KingTempest said:
following, not too sure about context, i don't seem like the best person for this

If you want to see the chapter for yourself, it is on Chapter 90 of Mashle

KingTempest · Mar 4, 2022

KobsterHope07 said:
If you want to see the chapter for yourself, it is on Chapter 90 of Mashle

thanks

JnSteHar002 · Mar 4, 2022

Following; good points but still not sure

Confluctor · Mar 4, 2022

A question, would the calc scale to his physicals or just this specific attack?

Also do you want me to tag Damage and executioner?

LIFE_OF_KING · Mar 4, 2022

Confluctor said:
A question, would the calc scale to his physicals or just this specific attack?

I mean, both?

Confluctor said:
Also do you want me to tag Damage and executioner?

I already called them

Confluctor · Mar 4, 2022

Sorry the scan is too small for my eyes, can you please give me a tl Dr of it?

AnAverageUsername · Mar 4, 2022

Confluctor said:
A question, would the calc scale to his physicals or just this specific attack?

Also do you want me to tag Damage and executioner?

If you're talking about Levis, then for him this would scale to his secondths only. For his god summon phase, the magnetic armor or whatever it was called, Adamas, it would scale to his physicals and probably durability.

AnAverageUsername · Mar 4, 2022

Oh, and probably most of the Divine Visionaries since Levis stated it would be an attack to match the Divine Visionaries. And of course, probably Wahlberg, definitely in his prime, Innocent Zero's children, and Innocent Zero himself.

Confluctor · Mar 4, 2022

AnAverageUsername said:
If you're talking about Levis, then for him this would scale to his secondths only. For his god summon phase, the magnetic armor or whatever it was called, Adamas, it would scale to his physicals and probably durability.

I see, that makes sense

WrongIdea21 · Mar 5, 2022

The author's explanation is quite structured and doesn't seem like an exaggerated sentence in my opinion, but we have to see some input from others.

AnAverageUsername · Mar 6, 2022

Should more people be messaged?

LIFE_OF_KING · Mar 6, 2022

I think so. I'll call Ant

AnAverageUsername · Mar 6, 2022

Bump?

LordGriffin1000 · Mar 6, 2022

LIFE_OF_KING said:
Okay, in summary the goal is to get this feat accepted:

Mashle - Invariable Railgun

vsbattles.fandom.com

The argument for this not being accepted is for the fact that "Nothing suggests that the projectiles would pulverize an area that large, or that the shockwaves it produces have a range of hundreds of kilometers". However, that is an ignorant thing to say. In the scan used in the statement Lévis is explaining how his spell works, elaborating on how the projectile is cast through magnetism, then states specifically about the speed and then describes the potency of his magic. It is an explicit line of reasoning that the author has created

The argument of "the destruction was not even 50 meters" is not valid, since magic in Mashle follows the logic of the inverse square law (Somewhat, at least). Where the smaller the concentrated area of magic, the greater the potency distributed on your opponent. Therefore, the attack having a small area when is used against a human target is not a solid argument

That's all.

Are there feats on this level from other characters? Because that would make it more believable.

Also, unless all characters can condensed there magic like that, you can't say the character was keeping the attack constrained, if that was the case it would go against the attack itself as it's stated to use a specific method, have a set speed and cause a specific level of destruction.

Damage3245 · Mar 6, 2022

While he does say he could decimate a country with it, that's not exactly the same as saying he would destroy the entire country with a single shot. It doesn't appear like there is enough supporting evidence that these Mach 7 projectiles could completely destroy an area of 667143 sq. km.

Over time, a Railgun weapon like that could believably tear through buildings, destroy infrastructure, cripple defenses, etc.... AKA everything you'd need to do to "decimate a country" without blowing the entire country up at once.

AnAverageUsername · Mar 6, 2022

LordGriffin1000 said:
Are there feats on this level from other characters? Because that would make it more believable.

We you see, this is the Secondth, an advanced form of magic that only a few can use ~~which basically means most enemies Mash fights because Shonen logic~~ , of Levis, who is pretty powerful among magic users due to being the son of the Head of the Bureau. So pretty high up in the pecking order.

AnAverageUsername · Mar 6, 2022

Also if you mean supporting feats, then Poseidon is said to have the power of a "true natural disaster"

LIFE_OF_KING · Mar 6, 2022

LordGriffin1000 said:
Are there feats on this level from other characters? Because that would make it more believable.

Immensely inferior characters are 6-C+ through multipliers, and characters that scale above the 6-B feat are considered living environmental disasters. The difference in level between one arc and the next in Mashle is immense at all times (7-C to 7-B+ in ~5 chapters for exemple), so I don't think it is inconsistent

LordGriffin1000 said:
unless all characters can condensed there magic like that

This is a peculiarity of magic in verse. The character in the feat for example is someone who has studied to become the most experienced in magic all his life to reach the top of the world, to assume that a much more inexperienced character (Lance) can compress the power but for some reason Lévis can't, it's absurd

Also, Dot stated about condensed the attack area as something general and not just Lance's

Damage3245 said:
While he does say he could decimate a country with it, that's not exactly the same as saying he would destroy the entire country with a single shot

The projectiles fly at mach 7. That's around 8,000Km/h. I could decimate an entire country with this [...]

He refers to the projectiles. Lévis is clearly not saying that it will be over time

Damage3245 said:
Over time, a Railgun weapon like that could believably tear through buildings, destroy infrastructure, cripple defenses, etc.... AKA everything you'd need to do to "decimate a country" without blowing the entire country up at once.

It is a weapon that stands still and with each shot there is an interval of seconds, and the projectiles are relatively slow to decimate a country in a short period of time. You would be assuming that Lévis would start shoot in all possible directions until by some miracle he manages to destroy a entire country, which is honestly worse than saying that he could destroy everything with one attack

LordGriffin1000 · Mar 7, 2022

LIFE_OF_KING said:
This is a peculiarity of magic in verse. The character in the feat for example is someone who has studied to become the most experienced in magic all his life to reach the top of the world, to assume that a much more inexperienced character (Lance) can compress the power but for some reason Lévis can't, it's absurd

Also, Dot stated about condensed the attack area as something general and not just Lance's

Which as I pointed out brings the validity of the feat in question. You admit that it functions a specific way when attacking, it has a specific speed, and a specific destruction capability. To say he can alter this makes giving the statement of how much it is suppose to be capable of destroying in one shot invalid.

LIFE_OF_KING said:
He refers to the projectiles. Lévis is clearly not saying that it will be over time

Not he gives no timeframe in general but that doesn't mean he states it's in one shot.

LIFE_OF_KING said:
It is a weapon that stands still and with each shot there is an interval of seconds, and the projectiles are relatively slow to decimate a country in a short period of time. You would be assuming that Lévis would start shoot in all possible directions until by some miracle he manages to destroy a entire country, which is honestly worse than saying that he could destroy everything with one attack

He says with it he can decimate a country, it doesn’t matter if the projectiles are slow (Even though he says they fly at Mach 7). You half to prove he ment in one shot, and nothing he says in that scan implies it's with one shot. If I had a super-powered gun and stated "I could decimate a city with it" we do not assume by default that that super-powered gun can destroy an entire city in one shot because it's not stated to be capable of doing it in one shot. Especially given the railgun in question doesn't seem capable of outputting that level of destruction in one shot.

LIFE_OF_KING · Mar 7, 2022

LordGriffin1000 said:
Which as I pointed out brings the validity of the feat in question. You admit that it functions a specific way when attacking, it has a specific speed, and a specific destruction capability. To say he can alter this makes giving the statement of how much it is suppose to be capable of destroying in one shot invalid.

What? Why does it make the feat invalid? That was never a thing on the site. Verses like Black Clover have a similar logic, where a specific character would destroy a country with one attack, but on every occasion in the series he does not create an explosion the size of tens of kilometers in any second within the entire series. This is simply because throughout the manga there were no circumstances for him to destroy everything, which is not impossible because of how the magic system works (However, unlike BC, there is actually an explanation that the smaller the area the greater the concentration of power)

LordGriffin1000 said:
Not he gives no timeframe in general but that doesn't mean he states it's in one shot.

He is not talking about his Invariable Railgun itself, but about individual projectiles

LordGriffin1000 said:
You half to prove he ment in one shot, and nothing he says in that scan implies it's with one shot. If I had a super-powered gun and stated "I could decimate a city with it" we do not assume by default that that super-powered gun can destroy an entire city in one shot because it's not stated to be capable of doing it in one shot. Especially given the railgun in question doesn't seem capable of outputting that level of destruction in one shot.

Lévis refers to the capacity of the projectiles, not the cannon
Nothing implies that he is referring to a overtime, as opposed to assuming it would be with an attack
The projectile is too slow to be able to destroy a country over time, it would take days if not months
The cannon does not move, it stands still and cannot rotate (If you look at its structure)
If you assume that the attack is only a few meters long you automatically make the situation worse, because it will be too small for something as large as a country

The projectiles fly at mach 7. That's around 8,000Km/h. I could decimate an entire country with this [...]

This clearly refers to only one projectile, not a hundred. With the same interpretation it is like saying that the mach 7 speed is overtime. The author follows a simple logic of reasoning as I have already mentioned in OP. The explanation about the speed and physics of the attack are how a single projectile works, but for some reason in the step about destruction it is something involving multiple shots?

LIFE_OF_KING · Mar 7, 2022

By the way, the raws seem to be more specific

いっこくこの力は一国を滅ぼすこともたやすい...

This power could easily destroy a country...

I'll check it out later

AnAverageUsername · Mar 7, 2022

Why did nobody check raws in the first place?

LIFE_OF_KING · Mar 7, 2022

~~First of all I didn't even imagine that someone would actually disagree~~

WrongIdea21 · Mar 7, 2022

AnAverageUsername said:
Why did nobody check raws in the first place?

I dont even thinking about it till you said it, lol

LIFE_OF_KING · Mar 8, 2022

KingTempest · Mar 8, 2022

Yeah if it says that it can easily destroy a country, this shouldn't even be up for debate

You got my agreeal

Damage3245 · Mar 8, 2022

Yeah if it says that it can easily destroy a country, this shouldn't even be up for debate

A statement by itself is not the end-all of proof. Supporting evidence for it would make it easier to accept, and we have to consider factors like whether or not it is an outlier, if there is hyperbole at play, etc.

The statement is also not as straightforward as just "Destroy a country in a single shot".

LIFE_OF_KING · Mar 8, 2022

Damage3245 said:
A statement by itself is not the end-all of proof. Supporting evidence for it would make it easier to accept, and we have to consider factors like whether or not it is an outlier, if there is hyperbole at play, etc.

It makes no sense to be a hyperbole, two descriptions of the attack are legitimate (Speed and physics), why would destruction be false? Also, there's no proof of being an outlier since there is no anti feat so far. This attack by the way scales above most of the characters and is considered something above most of the members of the powerful group in the verse (Divine Visionaries), having only some characters who legitimately are above the Invariable Railgun, and by coincidence they are just God-Tiers compared to living environmental disasters and the reincarnation of gods that transcend humanity

Lévis is someone who has studied and trained all his life to become the strongest and has an above average Secondth, it is not absurd that one of his most powerful spells is above most of the verse

Damage3245 said:
The statement is also not as straightforward as just "Destroy a country in a single shot".

Again, the sentence refers to the projectiles

The projectiles fly at mach 7. That's around 8,000Km/h. I could decimate an entire country with this [...]

And now that we know that raw mentions about it being something "easy" it makes no sense to assume that a lot of shots would be used. In fact, it would be a more vague assumption

AnAverageUsername · Mar 8, 2022

On a side note, would this be a new key or something varying? Because if it's the latter, I don't see how that could be, considering that Mash has struggled with opponents that scale to lower feats from previous chapters, right?

LIFE_OF_KING · Mar 8, 2022

New key for whom?

AnAverageUsername · Mar 8, 2022

LIFE_OF_KING said:
New key for whom?

Mash of course.

LIFE_OF_KING · Mar 8, 2022

I think of something like this for now

It's kind of obvious that Mash's Tier varies, since for example, he is hurt by Lévis's normal attacks but can also withstand Adam's attacks, which would be inconsistent if we don't give a "Varies". Also, if you go back in the chapters it will be kind of implied that at some points he regulates the weight of his bracelets

AnAverageUsername · Mar 8, 2022

LIFE_OF_KING said:
I think of something like this for now

It's kind of obvious that Mash's Tier varies, since for example, he is hurt by Lévis's normal attacks but can also withstand Adam's attacks, which would be inconsistent if we don't give a "Varies". Also, if you go back in the chapters it will be kind of implied that at some points he regulates the weight of his bracelets

He never fought Adam though? Only hurt IZ who had Adam's magic, and even then IZ was heavily weakened.

I mean, it's much easier to justify Mash growing stronger through his constant routine of pumping iron. He goes from struggling against Abyss for a bit, then eventually went on to the second to final part of the exam before pushing himself to the max to throw that giant. And now he was casually beating Levis' railgun. Repeating myself, it just makes more sense for Mash to have just grown stronger over the course of the series so far. Also, that one scene isnt that great for evidence, as it's most likely to build up tension for what Mash was about to do next.

LIFE_OF_KING · Mar 9, 2022

AnAverageUsername said:
He never fought Adam though?

Actually, the name is "Adamas". So yeah, I can understand you being confused

AnAverageUsername said:
I mean, it's much easier to justify Mash growing stronger through his constant routine of pumping iron

No, it is not, in fact it is quite inconsistent

We see that a single puppet is physically stronger than Mash. However, a single day later he was able to destroy three puppets with one move
- That is, a difference of a few hours and we currently assume that Mash at this point is 7-B+
Mash a few days later was able to throw a massive giant several kilometers drom the ground. This being currently considered 10 times the strength he had when he defeated the three puppets
After this, he in a few days later confronts 008, a mere slave of the Divine Visionaries, and even then it was capable of damaging Mash (That being because he allowed ofc. But it shows that Mash can increase and decrease his strength and durability at will)
One chapter later, without any training or time skip, he faces Orter. Someone who by objectivity scales massively above Lévis's Third Line and is probably in the top 5 strongest wizards in the world, and by the way 008 calls him invincible
- That is, a difference of thousands of times in less than a minute
A few chapters later, Mash confronts Lévis, someone 7-A+ in his base. And yet Mash is damaged several times
After escaping the sealing and some dura neg shit, Mash goes against Secondth, Lévis's second strongest spell. And he obliterates it quite easily
And later, Mash obliterates Adamas, Lévis's strongest magic
In the beginning of the fight against Domima's Third Line, Mash is shown being physically beaten, but a chapter later he manages to withstand a few attacks

If we assume that Mash was not that strong from the beginning it will be very inconsistent, because he would change tier every battle he enters. Hell, Wahlberg even believed that he could give to Divine Visionaries a chance to win against Innocent Zero thanks to his strength, although if we assume that Mash was not that strong from the beginning Wahlberg would be saying that a 7-A+ could help in a fight against 5 characters that are at 6-B; In fact, this would also make Mash's training inconsistent. We would be assuming that Mash training for 15 years only reached tier 7-C (His current first key), but now going from 7-A+ to 6-B+ in minutes, or going 7-C to 7-B+ in hours

AnAverageUsername said:
that one scene isnt that great for evidence

He has also done the same thing against Cell War

In general Mash seems to regulate his strength to be comparable to his opponent, except on occasions that affect his friends

AnAverageUsername · Mar 9, 2022

LIFE_OF_KING said:
Actually, the name is "Adamas". So yeah, I can understand you being confused

Ah yes, the art of confusing names

LIFE_OF_KING said:
No, it is not, in fact it is quite inconsistent

We see that a single puppet is physically stronger than Mash. However, a single day later he was able to destroy three puppets with one move

That is, a difference of a few hours and we currently assume that Mash at this point is 7-B+

Fair

LIFE_OF_KING said:
Mash a few days later was able to throw a massive giant several kilometers drom the ground. This being currently considered 10 times the strength he had when he defeated the three puppets

Yeah but judging by the time frame, that took a few days, didn't it?

LIFE_OF_KING said:
After this, he in a few days later confronts 008, a mere slave of the Divine Visionaries, and even then it was capable of damaging Mash (That being because he allowed ofc. But it shows that Mash can increase and decrease his strength and durability at will)

Again, fair

LIFE_OF_KING said:
One chapter later, without any training or time skip, he faces Orter. Someone who by objectivity scales massively above Lévis's Third Line and is probably in the top 5 strongest wizards in the world, and by the way 008 calls him invincible

That is, a difference of thousands of times in less than a minute

At first however, Orter was quite easily handling Mash, and was even about to kill him until Renatus stepped in. Though Orter did say something about how Mash could have escaped earlier(?), so I can also see this.

LIFE_OF_KING said:
A few chapters later, Mash confronts Lévis, someone 7-A+ in his base. And yet Mash is damaged several times

Fair

LIFE_OF_KING said:
After escaping the sealing and some dura neg shit, Mash goes against Secondth, Lévis's second strongest spell. And he obliterates it quite easily

True

LIFE_OF_KING said:
And later, Mash obliterates Adamas, Lévis's strongest magic

Alright I'm starting to see the point

LIFE_OF_KING said:
In the beginning of the fight against Domima's Third Line, Mash is shown being physically beaten, but a chapter later he manages to withstand a few attacks

Same as before

LIFE_OF_KING said:
If we assume that Mash was not that strong from the beginning it will be very inconsistent, because he would change tier every battle he enters. Hell, Wahlberg even believed that he could give to Divine Visionaries a chance to win against Innocent Zero thanks to his strength, although if we assume that Mash was not that strong from the beginning Wahlberg would be saying that a 7-A+ could help in a fight against 5 characters that are at 6-B; In fact, this would also make Mash's training inconsistent. We would be assuming that Mash training for 15 years only reached tier 7-C (His current first key), but now going from 7-A+ to 6-B+ in minutes, or going 7-C to 7-B+ in hours

To be fair, speed is also fairly inconsistent, but I concede.

LIFE_OF_KING said:
He has also done the same thing against Cell War

In general Mash seems to regulate his strength to be comparable to his opponent, except on occasions that affect his friends

Eh, I would say it was to show tension, but since it was shown twice I'll agree again.

Mashle revision (Invariable Railgun)

Awakened after 1000 years

Awakened after 1000 years

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