Alien X (Reboot) should be weaker than Way Big (Reboot)

TheQuestioner · Jun 20, 2021

In the profile of Alien X (Reboot), why does it say that he "should be far superior to Way Big"?

Alien X was only strong because of the extra Omnitrices he had already absorbed, after he lost them he lost the advantage he had and lost to Four Arms. While everyone did work together to beat him, it was clear that Four Arms landed the finishing blow and did a lot of damage.

On the other hand, Alien V scales above Anti Vilgax, who beat Omni-Kix Four Arms is superior to normal Four Arms. Way Big beat Alien V at the end of Ben 10 vs. The Universe, so the scaling should be:

Way Big (Reboot) > Alien V > Anti Vilgax > Alien X (Reboot)

It's a pretty big stretch to say that Alien X "is far superior to Way Big" all things considered.

Agree: 2
Disagree: 3

DemonicDude · Jun 20, 2021

Alien V is stated to takeover the Universe at full Power due to being part Celestialsapien wouldn't a full Celestialsapien such as Alien X scale above this. I don't think Omnitrices amplified him.

Greenshifter · Jun 20, 2021

1) the crossover is filled with PIS and 2) I don’t think it’s ever stated that the other Omnitrices amp him, he even said that 1 Omnitrix is more than enough to beat all of them. 3) He absolutely destroyed Vilgax with just 1 Omnitrix in the flashback. So if the solution to the entire movie would be to just go Four Arms or heck Omni-Kix Four Arms to oneshot Alien X, then we wouldn’t have had a movie.

Gohanblanco217 · Jun 20, 2021

Greenshifter said:
1) the crossover is filled with PIS and 2) I don’t think it’s ever stated that the other Omnitrices amp him, he even said that 1 Omnitrix is more than enough to beat all of them. 3) He absolutely destroyed Vilgax with just 1 Omnitrix in the flashback. So if the solution to the entire movie would be to just go Four Arms or heck Omni-Kix Four Arms to oneshot Alien X, then we wouldn’t have had a movie.

Not only to mention that Alien x by himself already one shot Four arms twice at the beginning of the series so him losing to the same four arms was clearly a Pis

TheQuestioner · Jun 21, 2021

Greenshifter said:
1) the crossover is filled with PIS and 2) I don’t think it’s ever stated that the other Omnitrices amp him, he even said that 1 Omnitrix is more than enough to beat all of them. 3) He absolutely destroyed Vilgax with just 1 Omnitrix in the flashback. So if the solution to the entire movie would be to just go Four Arms or heck Omni-Kix Four Arms to oneshot Alien X, then we wouldn’t have had a movie.

1. I don't see how the feat is PIS, explain. All it means is that Alien X (Reboot) doesn't scale to Alien X from the original continuity, just like how the other aliens do not either.
2. Wrong. As you just said, he did say that even 1 Omnitrix is enough to beat all of them. The fact that he said even implies that he does gain a boost from absorbing more Omnitrices. This is consistent with the special, before he lost his Omnitrices he could at the very least keep the rest at bay somewhat. After he lost them he was losing even worse.
3) Alien X wasn't shown destroying Vilgax in the flashback as far as we know, Vilgax was not seen after the explosion so we can assume that he died from the explosion. Even if he did, that wouldn't matter. AntiVilgax is superior to Vilgax and Alien V is even more superior. Ben did use Four Arms against Alien X but lost to him due to his abilities and the strength he had. Four Arms can't just one-shot him either, it took the entire team to take him down. The point is, Four Arms can deal a significant amount of damage to Alien X without the Omnitrices while a superior Four Arms got destroyed by AntiVilgax, who is far below Way Big because he scales below Alien V significantly.

TheQuestioner · Jun 21, 2021

Gohanblanco217 said:
Not only to mention that Alien x by himself already one shot Four arms twice at the beginning of the series so him losing to the same four arms was clearly a Pis

Four Arms was never really one-shotted twice in the beginning of the special. The two versions of Four Arms that lost to Alien X in the special lost to his invisible forcefield ability, every time Four Arms landed a hit, he seemed to do damage.

TheQuestioner · Jun 21, 2021

DemonicDude said:
Alien V is stated to takeover the Universe at full Power due to being part Celestialsapien wouldn't a full Celestialsapien such as Alien X scale above this. I don't think Omnitrices amplified him.

Not really relevant to the scaling. Duncan did say that the team wanted to make Alien V take over the universe, but that never really happened and that does not affect the feats that were shown in the specials. The Omnitrices also definitely amplified him because he said that even with only 1 Omnitrix, he could still handle the Bens, implying that they gave a boost.

TheQuestioner · Jun 22, 2021

TheQuestioner · Jun 22, 2021

AKM sama · Jun 23, 2021

I remember @Zamasu_Chan talking about planning a revision, so I'd ping him in case he wants to input here.

Zamasu_Chan · Jun 23, 2021

Reboot is large gay. The whole idea of the events being PIS is due to cross scaling the reboot with the canon series.

Greenshifter · Jun 23, 2021

Well the movie is even inconsistent with itself, since AX easily haxed Max into pieces at the beginning of the movie. So if he’d just done that a few more times then the movie would have been over in a few minutes, so it’s per definition PIS.

TheQuestioner · Jun 23, 2021

Zamasu_Chan said:
Reboot is large gay. The whole idea of the events being PIS is due to cross scaling the reboot with the canon series.

I don't agree with the idea of using cross scaling here, we should use the feats given in the Reboot and use that just for the Reboot. The Reboot is a completely different universe and has vastly different writing, it really doesn't make sense to just assume that the alien scale to their original continuity selves.

TheQuestioner · Jun 23, 2021

Greenshifter said:
Well the movie is even inconsistent with itself, since AX easily haxed Max into pieces at the beginning of the movie. So if he’d just done that a few more times then the movie would have been over in a few minutes, so it’s per definition PIS.

Why does Alien X using hax on Max to split him into pieces matter here? We don't know the limits and the details of the hax so we cannot just assume he could have done it all along, it's also a completely different feat compared to the ones I'm talking about and is irrelevant to the AP of AX. Villains not doing what is optimal to win is pretty normal in fiction, their intelligence and incompetence doesn't relate to their actual power.

Greenshifter · Jun 24, 2021

TheQuestioner said:
I don't agree with the idea of using cross scaling here, we should use the feats given in the Reboot and use that just for the Reboot. The Reboot is a completely different universe and has vastly different writing, it really doesn't make sense to just assume that the alien scale to their original continuity selves.

The cosmology got retconned but a lot of stuff from Classic reappeared in the Reboot, so I wouldn't go as far as to say they're completely different universes. Aside from Charmcaster and Hex, I don't think there's much that can't be explained by being an alternate timeline. Could you give an example of the different writing? I mean it has more gag moments but OV had some of those as well so... I don't see a noticeable difference when things get/are serious. We don't assume so we use WoG and the movie to back that up, but still disregard the movie itself as being PIS due to it contradicting previous movies.

TheQuestioner said:
Why does Alien X using hax on Max to split him into pieces matter here? We don't know the limits and the details of the hax so we cannot just assume he could have done it all along, it's also a completely different feat compared to the ones I'm talking about and is irrelevant to the AP of AX. Villains not doing what is optimal to win is pretty normal in fiction, their intelligence and incompetence doesn't relate to their actual power.

Unless you want to give all of Ben's aliens a resistance to getting spliced in pieces or to deconstruction, we do assume that it would work. It's relevant considering that he could have ended the movie very quickly, thus him losing makes no sense and thus the way he lost would also make no sense. Villains not being optimal is indeed a pretty common trope in fiction... but considering how he already haxed Max at the beginning, it clearly wasn't OoC for him and thus makes no sense for him not to do it again considering how much he used to love Max and he cares less about anyone else to the point of killing several Bens.

Greenshifter · Jun 24, 2021

TheQuestioner said:
2. Wrong. As you just said, he did say that even 1 Omnitrix is enough to beat all of them. The fact that he said even implies that he does gain a boost from absorbing more Omnitrices. This is consistent with the special, before he lost his Omnitrices he could at the very least keep the rest at bay somewhat. After he lost them he was losing even worse.

Actually them overwhelmed him by working together instead 1-on-1'ing him, the reason they went for the Omnitrix is to get Reboot Ben's watch back. After that they probably realized that if they could get all the watches off then he'd probably detransform. Not once did they say that the plan was to get the watches off to depower him and when Alien X said that "this watch is more than enough" he could also be referencing that he still had 1 watch left and thus was still able to keep his transformation into Alien X.

TheQuestioner said:
Not really relevant to the scaling. Duncan did say that the team wanted to make Alien V take over the universe, but that never really happened and that does not affect the feats that were shown in the specials. The Omnitrices also definitely amplified him because he said that even with only 1 Omnitrix, he could still handle the Bens, implying that they gave a boost.

I mean the relevant WoGs are that Alien V wasn't allowed to get to his full power (aka Alien X's power) and that fusions are diluted and thus Alien V would be weaker than Alien X.

TheQuestioner · Jun 25, 2021

Greenshifter said:
Actually them overwhelmed him by working together instead 1-on-1'ing him, the reason they went for the Omnitrix is to get Reboot Ben's watch back. After that they probably realized that if they could get all the watches off then he'd probably detransform. Not once did they say that the plan was to get the watches off to depower him and when Alien X said that "this watch is more than enough" he could also be referencing that he still had 1 watch left and thus was still able to keep his transformation into Alien X.

I mean the relevant WoGs are that Alien V wasn't allowed to get to his full power (aka Alien X's power) and that fusions are diluted and thus Alien V would be weaker than Alien X.

They did overwhelm him by working together, but AX did worse after losing the Omnitrices. The reasons of the Bens are irrelevant here. The fact that AX said "even" implies that the other Omnitrices do provide additional support since that would mean that they were significant enough for him to say that "even without them" he can defeat them.

I don't think I should have to say that what is actually shown in the source material is above WoG. Just because Duncan and the team intended to do something does not negate what actually happened.

Greenshifter said:
The cosmology got retconned but a lot of stuff from Classic reappeared in the Reboot, so I wouldn't go as far as to say they're completely different universes. Aside from Charmcaster and Hex, I don't think there's much that can't be explained by being an alternate timeline. Could you give an example of the different writing? I mean it has more gag moments but OV had some of those as well so... I don't see a noticeable difference when things get/are serious. We don't assume so we use WoG and the movie to back that up, but still disregard the movie itself as being PIS due to it contradicting previous movies.

Unless you want to give all of Ben's aliens a resistance to getting spliced in pieces or to deconstruction, we do assume that it would work. It's relevant considering that he could have ended the movie very quickly, thus him losing makes no sense and thus the way he lost would also make no sense. Villains not being optimal is indeed a pretty common trope in fiction... but considering how he already haxed Max at the beginning, it clearly wasn't OoC for him and thus makes no sense for him not to do it again considering how much he used to love Max and he cares less about anyone else to the point of killing several Bens.

Ignoring the changes you already stated, why would there need to be an example of different writing? They're different universes with similarities. Even if the aliens are shared unless there's solid evidence to suggest that the aliens generally cross-scale (such as feats and statements) you should not make that assumption that their powers will be 1:1.

Also, how do you say all those feats from the Reboot special are PIS with just WoG? I don't want to give all of Ben's aliens that resistance, all I said that we don't know how it works and its limits so we shouldn't assume anything about it without evidence. That's how burden of proof works, without evidence you don't assume that something is true. And yes, the plot happened because AX was incompetent and did not use his powers adequately. But why would that mean that the strength feats are suddenly PIS now? The logic doesn't connect.

Gohanblanco217 · Jun 25, 2021

TheQuestioner said:
all I said that we don't know how it works and its limits so we shouldn't assume anything about it without evidence.

We do assume that hax doesn't have a limit (except of the dimensionality difference) unless specifically shown just because AX used deconstruction a single time in the show doesn't mean his hax has limits unless specifically demonstrated or stated or shown and saying otherwise is the definition of headcanon

Greenshifter · Jun 25, 2021

TheQuestioner said:
The fact that AX said "even" implies that the other Omnitrices do provide additional support since that would mean that they were significant enough for him to say that "even without them" he can defeat them.

I don't think he said "even".

TheQuestioner said:
but AX did worse after losing the Omnitrices

Yeah cause they all attacked him at the same time and I don't think it's that noticeable.

TheQuestioner said:
I don't think I should have to say that what is actually shown in the source material is above WoG. Just because Duncan and the team intended to do something does not negate what actually happened.

True but the source material (the last movie) is full off PIS in this case and the logic would be that Vilgax got amped by the celestialsapien DNA, else why even activate it if he already has AntiVilgax? So clearly if Celestialsapien DNA is what is amping him, why would Alien X who is a full Celestialsapien be way weaker than Alien V? In each case since the latest movie contradicts itself and another movie, the only thing we really have here is WoG.

TheQuestioner said:
Ignoring the changes you already stated, why would there need to be an example of different writing? They're different universes with similarities. Even if the aliens are shared unless there's solid evidence to suggest that the aliens generally cross-scale (such as feats and statements) you should not make that assumption that their powers will be 1:1.

Oh well I'm arguing they're alternate timelines, which means by Ben 10's branching cosmology that at one point they were one and the same (pre-branch) and power levels don't change by the branching. It's similar to Way Big scaling to Cosmic Destruction Evil Way Big. Them being alternate timelines has enough backing in the movie (Alien Force Ben referencing Max supposedly dying) and WoG. Also if they have unique abilities such as Humungousaur's tail having vibration manipulation then we can just write down those unique abilities on their page(s).

TheQuestioner said:
Also, how do you say all those feats from the Reboot special are PIS with just WoG

Well I don't... the Alien X not using his hax thing comes from the movie and the Alien V thing from another movie, WoG is really just to support what I said above about Alien V.

TheQuestioner said:
I don't want to give all of Ben's aliens that resistance, all I said that we don't know how it works and its limits so we shouldn't assume anything about it without evidence.

We really have 0 reason to assume why it wouldn't work on Ben's aliens, arguing it has limits against aliens so that's why he didn't use it is headcanon. That'd be like randomly assuming Classic Alien X can only mindhax aliens but not humans.

TheQuestioner said:
That's how burden of proof works, without evidence you don't assume that something is true.

In this case burden of proof is on you, since you're claiming it's possible that the haxes didn't work on them or have a limit and hence he didn't use it. Meanwhile I'm saying there is no notable difference between Max and Ben's aliens that would suddenly make his haxes not work anymore.

TheQuestioner said:
And yes, the plot happened because AX was incompetent and did not use his powers adequately. But why would that mean that the strength feats are suddenly PIS now? The logic doesn't connect.

The fact that he didn't use his powers adequately while fighting those Bens, yet killing hundreds of them prior indicated that he was not performing nearly as well as he is supposed to. You can obviously extend that logic to his AP and durability. Also considering my disagreement with the Omnitrices amping him, him oneshotting Cannonbolt at the beginning of the special yet getting defeated by Four Arms is already enough of a contradiction for it to be PIS.

Greenshifter · Jun 25, 2021

Gohanblanco217 said:
We do assume that hax doesn't have a limit

Within the same dimensionality that is, we don't wanna go into NLF territory.

Gohanblanco217 · Jun 25, 2021

TheQuestioner said:
at's how burden of proof works, without evidence you don't assume that something is true.

And that literally applies to you and at this point you are making a burden of proof fallacy argument

Leotamer · Jun 25, 2021

I have stepped back from this forum and returned to lurking, but I would like to remind people that there is no burden of proof fallacy.

A fallacy is a fault in reasoning. The burden of proof is a debate standard that states positive claims require evidence. It is also possible for both parties to have the burden of proof.

In addition, fallacy and argument are both nouns. You don't have a fallacy argument. You have a fallacious argument.

Gohanblanco217 · Jun 25, 2021

Leotamer said:
I have stepped back from this forum and returned to lurking, but I would like to remind people that there is no burden of proof fallacy.

A fallacy is a fault in reasoning. The burden of proof is a debate standard that states positive claims require evidence. It is also possible for both parties to have the burden of proof.

In addition, fallacy and argument are both nouns. You don't have a fallacy argument. You have a fallacious argument.

I really can't tell what are you trying to say tbh

Greenshifter · Jun 25, 2021

He’s nitpicking your terminology. He’s basically saying that there is no “burden of proof fallacy” so you gotta describe it instead of using a short name for it.

TheQuestioner · Jun 26, 2021

Gohanblanco217 said:
We do assume that hax doesn't have a limit (except of the dimensionality difference) unless specifically shown just because AX used deconstruction a single time in the show doesn't mean his hax has limits unless specifically demonstrated or stated or shown and saying otherwise is the definition of headcanon

There seems to be misunderstanding here. I'm not saying that there is a limit, I'm saying that we do not know about the details and that you're inserting headcanon by assuming that it would automatically work on everything (that isn't dimensionally superior) when he only used it in a limited way once with a human of all people. But either way, this is not relevant to my main point.

Greenshifter said:
I don't think he said "even".

That was my mistake, my bad for that. However, the point is, he still thought that "this watch is more than enough" to beat the Bens. The phrasing still seems to imply that the other watches did have significance since he said it immediately after losing them.

Greenshifter said:
Yeah cause they all attacked him at the same time and I don't think it's that noticeable.

He was doing better when he had the Omnitrices when they were tag teaming him before, I already linked the clip. Either way, the statement does suggest a significant amp and that is consistent.

Greenshifter said:
True but the source material (the last movie) is full off PIS in this case and the logic would be that Vilgax got amped by the celestialsapien DNA, else why even activate it if he already has AntiVilgax? So clearly if Celestialsapien DNA is what is amping him, why would Alien X who is a full Celestialsapien be way weaker than Alien V? In each case since the latest movie contradicts itself and another movie, the only thing we really have here is WoG.

Why is Vilgax being amped by the Celestialsapien DNA contradictory? Although AntiVilgax is stronger he could still gain more power through the DNA, all it is is an additional power boost on top of his existing base. Through feats Alien X should be weaker. The only reason there is to reject that scaling is the WoG where an outside source claims that fusions with less Celestialsapien blood are inherently weaker, which completely contradicts the new source material. I think the issue here is obvious. You also have not provided evidence for this WoG.

Greenshifter said:
Oh well I'm arguing they're alternate timelines, which means by Ben 10's branching cosmology that at one point they were one and the same (pre-branch) and power levels don't change by the branching. It's similar to Way Big scaling to Cosmic Destruction Evil Way Big. Them being alternate timelines has enough backing in the movie (Alien Force Ben referencing Max supposedly dying) and WoG. Also if they have unique abilities such as Humungousaur's tail having vibration manipulation then we can just write down those unique abilities on their page(s).

That's a horrible and irrelevant comparison. The Bens from the game and UA are extremely similar, they have pretty much the same age, history, abilities and so on. This is a different universe with a completely different Ben, a completely different Omnitrix and different cosmologies. It's not like the powers of the aliens remain constant in all timelines, we have seen different Bens with differing attributes in the original series, and we have seen the "main" Ben's aliens change a lot. So why should the aliens have 1:1 cross scaling here? Do you have definitive evidence? If not, are you not the one inserting headcanon?

Greenshifter said:
Well I don't... the Alien X not using his hax thing comes from the movie and the Alien V thing from another movie, WoG is really just to support what I said above about Alien V.

We really have 0 reason to assume why it wouldn't work on Ben's aliens, arguing it has limits against aliens so that's why he didn't use it is headcanon. That'd be like randomly assuming Classic Alien X can only mindhax aliens but not humans.

In this case burden of proof is on you, since you're claiming it's possible that the haxes didn't work on them or have a limit and hence he didn't use it. Meanwhile I'm saying there is no notable difference between Max and Ben's aliens that would suddenly make his haxes not work anymore.

The fact that he didn't use his powers adequately while fighting those Bens, yet killing hundreds of them prior indicated that he was not performing nearly as well as he is supposed to. You can obviously extend that logic to his AP and durability. Also considering my disagreement with the Omnitrices amping him, him oneshotting Cannonbolt at the beginning of the special yet getting defeated by Four Arms is already enough of a contradiction for it to be PIS.

That was my bad again. But the Alien X not using hax thing is simply the character being stupid. It's not enough to justify a PIS for the feats in the entire special. That's a huge claim when you only have small piece of evidence, even then that is also arguable. As I said earlier, there's a misunderstanding here. I'm not saying that there is any reason to assume that it wouldn't, I'm saying that there isn't any reason to assume anything about it. In this case, he used it on a human once, not some super powered alien or anyone else. It might work on an alien, it might not work on an alien. All I'm saying is, we don't know about it, so we shouldn't use it. Mind hax is a different deal compared to normal hax, not to mention even in that case we should only assume Classic AX can only use mind hax to the extent he did in the shows and nothing more.

You seem have to forgotten that the hundreds of Bens before were less impressive according to AX, which was said at the first Four Arms fight. Him also not adequately using his powers does not matter, you're assuming that he did so for all the other Bens when we do not know. This also shows that the aliens don't necessarily scale to each other. I also don't see the issue with Cannonbolt being one shotted when that was a different Ben.

Gohanblanco217 · Jun 26, 2021

TheQuestioner said:
I'm not saying that there is a limit, I'm saying that we do not know about the details and that you're inserting headcanon by assuming that it would automatically work on everything (that isn't dimensionally superior) when he only used it in a limited way once with a human of all people.

It's not headcanon to assume that it would everything its literally the other way around as long as Alien x hax wasn't shown or implied to have any kind of limitation against any species then we assume that it should work on any 3D being

TheQuestioner · Jun 27, 2021

Gohanblanco217 said:
It's not headcanon to assume that it would everything its literally the other way around as long as Alien x hax wasn't shown or implied to have any kind of limitation against any species then we assume that it should work on any 3D being

What? So if a character used telekinesis to hold a normal human in place we would automatically assume that it would work on every 3D being including beings who are literally superior by an infinite amount and that every time they did not use it when they could have is automatically PIS despite there being potential unstated reasons for these events? That does not add up at all. In this case, it is headcanon to assume that it is effective on every 3D being and that him not using it is PIS, despite there being other potential reasons.

Gohanblanco217 · Jun 27, 2021

TheQuestioner said:
What? So if a character used telekinesis to hold a normal human in place we would automatically assume that it would work on every 3D being including beings who are literally superior by an infinite amount and that every time they did not use it when they could have is automatically PIS despite there being potential unstated reasons for these events? That does not add up at all.

What? Yes a 3D telekinesis would work on any 3D character as long as said 3D characters aren't far stronger there is literally no headcanon about this and that's literally a false equivalency here as telekinesis is a hax that can be overpowered by superior AP unlike deconstruction so if your best feat was TK a normal human then clearly you need feats for being able to TK 3D beings that are much stronger than you as for deconstruction it's a hax that ignore conventional durability so we assume that it work on any 3D characters who doesn't have resistance to it simple as that.

>In this case, it is headcanon to assume that it is effective on every 3D being and that him not using it is PIS, despite there being other potential reasons.

No it's not headcanon deconstruction is a hax that ignore durability and considering no one in Ben 10 resisted this kind of hax means that what happened was either a Pis or it's out of character for Alien x to use this kind of hax so saying hax didn't work because it was only shown to be effective on humans is something that need an evidence and not headcanon and assumption since WE DO NOT ASSUME THAT HAX HAS A LIMITATION UNLESS SPECIFICALLY SHOWN

Greenshifter · Jun 27, 2021

TheQuestioner said:
"this watch is more than enough"

That would still hold true in my interpretation of him still having a transformation in the first place.

TheQuestioner said:
Why is Vilgax being amped by the Celestialsapien DNA contradictory?

Because the celestialsapien DNA would have to be stronger than his Antivilgax or heck even his base form for that to work since it’s a massive amp (especially at full size), both of which contradict him getting manhandled by Four Arms.

Greenshifter · Jun 27, 2021

TheQuestioner said:
This is a different universe

So is Cosmic Destruction

TheQuestioner said:
with a completely different Ben, a completely different Omnitrix

How is he completely different? Seems like he has about the same attitude, family, … also doesn’t the Reboot Omnitrix function similarly to the Omniverse one when it comes to DNA storage?

TheQuestioner said:
different cosmologies

Yeah but that I really would consider a retcon and even within the movie itself the cosmology is inconsistent since the movie can’t even decide on the amount of Omnitrices Alien X took.

TheQuestioner said:
It's not like the powers of the aliens remain constant in all timelines, we have seen different Bens with differing attributes in the original series, and we have seen the "main" Ben's aliens change a lot. So why should the aliens have 1:1 cross scaling here?

Huh? When did they have different attributes? You mean the things they wear or their eye color? How does that impact their power? I mean these people were literally the same person at one point in their life so you can literally just scale them to their past self if need-be.

TheQuestioner said:
You also have not provided evidence for this WoG.

You mean the WoG itself or that it can be used?

TheQuestioner said:
It's not enough to justify a PIS for the feats in the entire special. That's a huge claim when you only have small piece of evidence, even then that is also arguable.

The entire special minus the end is Alien X moping the floor with and using haxes against or on people but not using the specific haxes that would make him insta-win.

TheQuestioner said:
Mind hax is a different deal compared to normal hax

How so?

TheQuestioner said:
not to mention even in that case we should only assume Classic AX can only use mind hax to the extent he did in the shows and nothing more.

Yeah it’s potency is 6 people for now… that doesn’t mean it suddenly won’t work on say very intelligent people. As Blanco said we don’t just randomly assume that a certain hax wouldn’t work on someone, not even in a hypothetical to explain why someone may not have done something, unless there is a valid reason for us to do so (for instance not being able to mindhax a mindless person without feats) which you have not provided because “superpowered alien” has nothing to do with a durability negating hax such as deconstruction or slicing someone into pieces.

TheQuestioner said:
You seem have to forgotten that the hundreds of Bens before were less impressive according to AX

We saw an alternate Ben face off against him and he was still comparable to Prime Reboot Ben (same AP-range). Also do you go with branching timelines or not for Reboot cosmology?

TheQuestioner said:
Him also not adequately using his powers does not matter, you're assuming that he did so for all the other Bens when we do not know

I suppose that is fair, however since Alien Force Ben stated that he moves quicker across the Omniverse than anyone he’s ever seen, he’s clearly not playing around most of the time and thus adequately using his hax.

TheQuestioner said:
This also shows that the aliens don't necessarily scale to each other

Being less impressive could just be skill-wise you know.

TheQuestioner · Jun 29, 2021

Gohanblanco217 said:
What? Yes a 3D telekinesis would work on any 3D character as long as said 3D characters aren't far stronger there is literally no headcanon about this and that's literally a false equivalency here as telekinesis is a hax that can be overpowered by superior AP unlike deconstruction so if your best feat was TK a normal human then clearly you need feats for being able to TK 3D beings that are much stronger than you as for deconstruction it's a hax that ignore conventional durability so we assume that it work on any 3D characters who doesn't have resistance to it simple as that.

>In this case, it is headcanon to assume that it is effective on every 3D being and that him not using it is PIS, despite there being other potential reasons.

No it's not headcanon deconstruction is a hax that ignore durability and considering no one in Ben 10 resisted this kind of hax means that what happened was either a Pis or it's out of character for Alien x to use this kind of hax so saying hax didn't work because it was only shown to be effective on humans is something that need an evidence and not headcanon and assumption since WE DO NOT ASSUME THAT HAX HAS A LIMITATION UNLESS SPECIFICALLY SHOWN

The telekinesis example was an analogy. You're also claiming that I stated that the hax wouldn't work on aliens when I didn't. All I'm saying is, that could have been one example and you're the one that's asserting headcanon by making a positive claim without definitive evidence and using that claim to say that the entire storyline is PIS. But let's discard that example then since this has derailed too much.

AX also might not have used that move in actual combat because he was arrogant. Him using it on Max doesn't matter, even after losing his Omnitrices and seeing what the others are capable of he still went on about how he only needs his watch to beat everyone. It's fair to say that he was arrogant because of this. This is also just one example, the point is we don't have any reasons, so trying to use that to say him not using it is PIS and all of the strength feats are meaningless because of that is ridiculous.

Greenshifter said:
So is Cosmic Destruction

I already talked about why Cosmic Destruction is a special case, and the treatment of Cosmic Destruction is irrelevant to this debate.

Greenshifter said:
How is he completely different? Seems like he has about the same attitude, family, … also doesn’t the Reboot Omnitrix function similarly to the Omniverse one when it comes to DNA storage?

The Reboot Omnitrix has the Omni-Kix armours. This Ben also underwent a different life compared to the original version.

Greenshifter said:
Yeah but that I really would consider a retcon and even within the movie itself the cosmology is inconsistent since the movie can’t even decide on the amount of Omnitrices Alien X took.

When was the movie inconsistent with the Omnitrices Alien X took?

Greenshifter said:
You mean the WoG itself or that it can be used?

The WoG itself.

Greenshifter said:
The entire special minus the end is Alien X moping the floor with and using haxes against or on people but not using the specific haxes that would make him insta-win.

He never needed to insta-win as far as he knew and I already talked about his flaw in my response to Blanco. It would be like saying the Frieza Saga is PIS because Frieza could have killed everyone if he used his powers properly and played it completely safe.

Greenshifter said:
How so?

Mind hax is not physical.

Greenshifter said:
Yeah it’s potency is 6 people for now… that doesn’t mean it suddenly won’t work on say very intelligent people. As Blanco said we don’t just randomly assume that a certain hax wouldn’t work on someone, not even in a hypothetical to explain why someone may not have done something, unless there is a valid reason for us to do so (for instance not being able to mindhax a mindless person without feats) which you have not provided because “superpowered alien” has nothing to do with a durability negating hax such as deconstruction or slicing someone into pieces.

I never assumed that though. Read what I said to Blanco.

Greenshifter said:
We saw an alternate Ben face off against him and he was still comparable to Prime Reboot Ben (same AP-range). Also do you go with branching timelines or not for Reboot cosmology?

Which Ben specifically are you referring to? As for the branching timelines, I do not know. I have not watched the Reboot series fully, so I won't comment on that unless you have evidence for that.

Greenshifter said:
I suppose that is fair, however since Alien Force Ben stated that he moves quicker across the Omniverse than anyone he’s ever seen, he’s clearly not playing around most of the time and thus adequately using his hax.

Why would AX moving faster across timelines than anything AF Ben seen mean that he has a habit of using his hax adequately in combat when we clearly see him not do that? Just because someone's serious doesn't mean they are competent.

Greenshifter said:
Being less impressive could just be skill-wise you know.

Unlikely, Reboot Ben never showed skill in the battle up to that point (unless you call Rath's combo and Heatblast's tornado move "skill"), it only makes sense for AX to refer to pure stats. He also said "impressive" after grunting from pain when Humungosaur's shockwave tail attack hit him.

Greenshifter said:
That would still hold true in my interpretation of him still having a transformation in the first place.

Unlikely. I don't want to repeat myself, but saying that his watch is more than enough would imply that having the other watches was significant enough for him to mention that in the first place. It wouldn't make sense for him to suddenly say that if he meant what you said, especially when the others don't know AX's true identity.

Greenshifter said:
Because the celestialsapien DNA would have to be stronger than his Antivilgax or heck even his base form for that to work since it’s a massive amp (especially at full size), both of which contradict him getting manhandled by Four Arms.

I didn't bring up anything about his base form, I don't care if it is weaker either. What you said doesn't actually mean anything. All it means that while AntiVilgax is superior the DNA is still impressive enough to provide a boost. You could think of it as:
AntiVilgax is 6
Celestialsapien DNA is 5
Alien V is 8

This is not a literal scale or example.

Huh? When did they have different attributes? You mean the things they wear or their eye color? How does that impact their power? I mean these people were literally the same person at one point in their life so you can literally just scale them to their past self if need-be.

That was an error on my part. But either way, I don't see why Reboot Alien X would scale to Classic Alien X when the Reboot aliens listed here do not match the scaling of the classic aliens at all. The Reboot Omnitrix is also significantly different so unless there's solid evidence there's no reason to assume that the Reboot universe is an alternate timeline has 1:1 scaling.

Gohanblanco217 · Jun 29, 2021

TheQuestioner said:
The telekinesis example was an analogy.

Which is again a false equivalency

TheQuestioner said:
You're also claiming that I stated that the hax wouldn't work on aliens when I didn't

I never said that read what I said for the **** sake already.

TheQuestioner said:
and you're the one that's asserting headcanon

And I'm not

TheQuestioner said:
by making a positive claim without definitive evidence and using that claim to say that the entire storyline is PIS

I don't think you are still getting the point, Ben aliens has no defense against deconstruction and the fact that Alien x could've used it but didn't do so is already safe to assume that it was Pis even if you think it's headcanon it's literally much better than assuming that Alien x hax has limits and it's only effective against humans, that's how things works in this wiki you have many examples for things like this such us Arceus (Pokémon) who get trapped by humans, normal Pokémons, chains despite the fact that he has to many hax and abilities but still didn't use them against them because what happened was clearly a Pis.

TheQuestioner said:
AX also might not have used that move in actual combat because he was arrogant.

Well I can also agree with that or it could just be that AX deconstruction hax isn't in character move and etc

TheQuestioner · Jul 2, 2021

Gohanblanco217 said:
Well I can also agree with that or it could just be that AX deconstruction hax isn't in character move and etc

Yes. So AX not using his move is explainable and not necessarily PIS. Him using it on Max is irrelevant because he used it in a non-combat situation for minor reasons.

TheQuestioner · Jul 2, 2021

TheQuestioner · Jul 10, 2021

Zamasu_Chan · Jul 10, 2021

Their low 5-B rating are nothing but gorilla tactics.
His AP description reads:
(Corrupted and planned to destroy the Earth. WoG says he could take over the Universe at full power)
Corruption is the ability to "infect" someone or something with one's power, making said person or thing into a different being or state of being than it was before.

This obviously isn’t a striking strength feat, but an ability. It should probably be given to Celestialsapiens.

As for Alien X. It’s clear that AX is stronger than the regular aliens but can still be harmed by them. Alien X has better feats than base Alien V, but when Alien V used his ability to grow, we was talking 0 damage. This still means Alien X is naturally stronger than Alien X.

DemonicDude · Jul 11, 2021

Zamasu_Chan said:
This obviously isn’t a striking strength feat, but an ability. It should probably be given to Celestialsapiens.

Ah, you mean Reboot Celestialsapiens right.

Greenshifter · Jul 11, 2021

Zamasu_Chan said:
Their low 5-B rating are nothing but gorilla tactics

~~That’d imply DD and Lollipop have tactics…~~

Zamasu_Chan said:
This still means Alien X is naturally stronger than Alien X.

Eh?

But I agree that the ratings need to be fixed… and they will soon-ish.
But I still disagree with the notion that Alien V is superior to Alien X.

Zamasu_Chan · Jul 11, 2021

Greenshifter said:
But I still disagree with the notion that Alien V is superior to Alien X.

I was dude the only reason AV has better feats than AX was because he grew to gigantic sizes. I’m pretty sure if Alien X did the same thing he’d be stronger than the giant Alien V that we see.

Greenshifter · Jul 11, 2021

Hmm perhaps you have a point.

What’s your stance on the Omnitrices amp argument?

Alien X (Reboot) should be weaker than Way Big (Reboot)

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