2-A Pokemon Upgrade Revival: The Time Has Come

ProfessorKukui4Life · Mar 5, 2021

M2B3 said:
No, lol. You literally said you agreed. I did tell you to refresh your memory

No, I agreed with the saying "the argument is non-existent" isn't an argument in itself. I never agreed with you. So you can kindly stop giving misinformation.

M2B3 said:
What you've done here is the very definition of taking something out of context. No it isn't. Stitching sentences together

No, its gathering scans together. Which is allowed and obviously very basic form of evidence gathering.

M2B3 said:
to misrepresent the original meanings is completely and utterly unacceptable and palpable if I might add.

And nothing is misrepresented when they all mean the same thing. Thats why context is your best friend.

M2B3 said:
No I mean fake feats. Feats that do not exist.

Except they very much do and the scans provide that.

M2B3 said:
Prove it.

"The Creator of Parallel Universes"

"Space is ever-expanding dimensions"

I did.

M2B3 said:
There is no evidence. A completely unrelated conversation about parallel universes cannot be taken as evidence about the meaning of the words "infinite space" on an inscription halfway across the world.

It absolutely can because anything can mean more than one thing. Common Sense. And this "halfway across the world" claim for something from the same region and gen? Nice.

M2B3 said:
Why do you think that I've been asking you to give me a single source where these two phrases have ever been used together?

They don't need to be used together when both are referring to the same thing. Space.

M2B3 said:
Unrelated trite. The point was that you made the illogical argument that sounded as if the existence of the multiverse depended on whether or not it had been described on a rock. I was merely correcting that statement.

That isn't what I said, or meant, obviously.

M2B3 said:
So what? So the existence of the multiverse doesn't depend on whether or not "infinite space" refers to an infinite multiverse or not, thereby invalidating that line of reasoning.

Not a point. The point is that it still alludes to what the Multiverse is. "Dependence" is irrelevant and has nothing to do with this.

M2B3 said:
It really really does. We can follow your line of reasoning and jump to any number of faulty conclusions.

It really really really doesn't.

M2B3 said:
You are yet to prove that it does. You have attempted to do so through your "the multiverse would not exist if the rock isn't referring to parallel universes" interpretation and I have utterly debunked that.

And that's not what my point was about so I don't care. My point was that the expansion of space clearly and most definitely needs to be referring to the number of universes, as that's the only way a Multiverse comes about in the first place. Pokemon isn't a large scale universe, so space being expanded in the beginning means its the creation of the Multiverse's universes.

Therefore, its referring to the number of universes. As is supported by Palkia being the creator of parallel universes and space being considered ever-expanding dimensions.

M2B3 said:
Either the statements support a given interpretation or they don't. Anything else is speculative at best.

Nope. Several meanings for one thing very much exist at once.

M2B3 said:
I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean.

It should be clear. It means you don't dictate what counts as evidence and what doesn't.

ProfessorKukui4Life · Mar 5, 2021

SomebodyData said:
Professor

Ignore my reasoning instead of tackling them, it shows the validity of the claims.

Because I don't need to tackle something that's irrelevant and has nothing to do with the actual point.

SomebodyData said:
This is a CRT...

For a completely different topic.

SomebodyData said:
Dialga and Palkia are very obviously not the masters of all substance, Giratina isn't subservient to them and isn't an entire part of its mythology that its in opposition most of the time?

We never said they were the absolute total masters of it when they obviously aren't with Arceus being a thing. The point is that they are masters of it in general.

Or you know, simply "rulers" as the quote itself uses too.

SomebodyData said:
Which conviently, is everyone but those who agree with you. Nvm the fact that most were FRAs anyways.

Ah yes because seeing an entire blog with layered evidence and explanation and agreeing with said in-depth explanation is a bad thing.

Unlike someone giving a 2 second "I don't think so" remark and then, for some reason, getting that FRA'd instead of giving an actual reason for the "I don't think so".

Greenshifter · Mar 5, 2021

SomebodyData said:
Anti-matter doesn't rely on Palkia, heck when matter and anti-matter touch they annihilate each other so I'm not sure where this comes from. Not to mention, Giratina exists in a realm without time and space already (Although this might have gotten rejected, I don't remember honestly) so the dependency argument is proven wrong in-verse as well.

Matter and anti-matter spontaneously come into existence in space via energy. It wouldn’t be able to exist without space. Is Giratina only living there or are there anti-matter particles themselves in the distortion world as well? Are you sure it’s outside of space and time and not just time?

Executor_N0 · Mar 5, 2021

As I would have expected, lots of information that isn't being understood correctly (That is why I'm making my Pokémon blogs after all).

About the whole "substance" thing, there's a lot of context that is missing.

The idea is that when Masuda is talking about "substance" or even "matter" (As it's in the games), it's not only talking about the matter as we understand now, but also all of "physical". Remember that time and space are also physical aspects. What Dialga and Palkia are, are physical aspects.

Giratina is "Anti-matter"/"Anti-substance", and although the people at grame freak talks all the time about how they studied about time, space and anti-matter to make the game, what they decided to go with, is something that is by no means "anti-matter" as we know here (In fact, even the persons who worked in the game said that they still didn't understood what "anti-matter" is in the real world).

The "anti-matter" that is referring to Giratina is about a virtual/imaginary/non-existing place that is the opposite of the real world, that at the same time exists and don't exist. Is in the same interview.

“Did you have the ideas for Pokemon Platinum in mind while working on Pokemon Diamond & Pokemon Pearl, or did they come about later?”

Masuda: “While developing Diamond & Pearl, Giratina originally embodied the idea of an ‘antiworld,’ which is a paradox of Time and Space. It exists in relation to Dialga and Palkia. That’s what I had in mind when I was developing Diamond & Pearl.”

Kawachimaru: “I was not aware of any of that during the Diamond & Pearl’s development. Masuda told me about it when we started developing Platinum. So it was after Diamond & Pearl for me (laughs). I normally receive key terms from Masuda in the first stage of development, but there were many random terms like ‘antimatter’ and ‘e=mc2,’ ‘Reversed Mt. Fuji’ (‘Sakasa Fuji’) and so on. He explained that ‘Sakasa Fuji’ is the reflection of Mt Fuji on the lake, and it’s the antimatter world. It was challenging to put that concept into the game, so we did extensive research. I didn’t know what exactly ‘antimatter’ was either. I personally think I comprehend it well, but I wonder….

Masuda: “Yes. It exists but it actually doesn’t. It doesn’t exist but it does. That sort of thing. The mountain exists on the lake through human eyes, but it’s only a reflection and doesn’t exist. It’s a diverse world. You see it only because you are looking at it with your eyes. I’m impressed [with Kawachimaru] for being able to take ingredients that were not substantial and incorporate them into Platinum.”

In fact even in another interview that they talked about the subject, the way that they thought that anti-matter was, already isn't how it's in the real world.

G4: Pokemon Platinum's concept is based on some heady things like Einstein's theory of relativity, matter, and antimatter. Would you kindly expand on that for the G4 audience?

Takeshi Kawachimaru: I was the one that set the direction for Platinum. Mr. Masuda came to me and explained the original concept for the Pokemon Giratina. He mentioned anti-matter as something -- it's there, but it's something you can't see. Mr. Masuda gave me a lot of key concepts to design around -- matter, antimatter, Einstein's theory of relativity. I was the one that had to make those concepts a realization in a Pokemon game -- both visually and implementing certain tricks into the gameplay to give the player a sense of bipolarity. There's a concept in particle, in physics called CP violation. It helps explain the relationship between matter and antimatter. The relationship is bipolar. The reality is that anti-matter is something that's very, very fragile. This concept weighs heavily in how we came up with Pokemon Platinum's Distortion World.

Although that they did tried to fit the Sinnoh games with theories about space-time, matter and anti-matter, the concept behind it, is very different from Real World physics. And that is why the mentions about Giratina and its world, other than having the "anti-matter" as its title, has nothing to do with real world anti-matter. It's "the opposite of the world" or "a force that balances with time and space" or "a concept that is different from the concepts of time and space", or "the result of the destructive clash between time and space" an so on.

Our world is of matter, time, space. Giratina is the "antiworld", so it's the "anti-matter" world, but isn't really how it works here in the real world (Of course, the Distortion World never worked with the whole "it collapses any matter that enters this world").

Still, nothing really to do with the main topic. So more of a big explanation to why Giratina really doesn't fit with all of this argument (Still, I'm going to give a more deep explanation in the blog)

ProfessorKukui4Life · Mar 5, 2021

Iamunanimousinthat said:
Space =/= parallel universes. It is absurd to argue that every time someone uses the word space in reference to pokemon, they mean parallel universes.

We have scans directly proving it means parallel universes. So no, its not absurd.

And obviously we're talking about Space in the context of the god tiers, not in general for anything unrelated to them anyway.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
The statements in which you provided that mention space, make no sense when you replace space with parallel universes.

"decided that ‘ultimate’ was the theme in the beginning. I set myself a task to pursue what was the ‘ultimate’ for Pokemon games, and started to act on this theme when making the games. When I asked myself what is ‘ultimate,’ I immediately knew I wanted to improve the level of communication, which is a core element of Pokemon games. In the games, players receive the Pokedex and start collecting Pokemon, which you need to do in order to trade with others. At the time of Ruby & Sapphire, people could trade their Pokemon with someone close by, but not with anyone overseas. I really wanted to do something about this. And that’s why I came up with the Global Trade Station (GTS). That’s what my goal was in the beginning — to create a user network. I want users to be able to connect to the world. That’s the ultimate style of trading for Pokemon. That was the goal. The key element was to create the storyline around the Pokemon in Sinnoh mythology. The relationship between all these Pokemon is the key element. I wanted to express the importance of the balance between substance — Dialga, the ruler of Time, and Palkia, the ruler of Parallel Universes — and spirit — Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf. If the substance becomes too large, the balance of the spirit collapses. I wanted Dialga and Palkia to become counterparts for a sense of balance. Infinite time and infinite Parallel Universes— that to me is the ‘ultimate.'"

"...Ah, hello. You’re here to read, too? Books are wonderful things. The thoughts of people written in books stretch beyond time and parallel universes. I was just reading a collection of letters written by an artist long ago. More precisely, they were written to the artist's younger brother. 'The stars above tantalize from across infinite parallel universes. Feeling their gaze from so far away, I am charmed again by life.' The artist must have come to a conclusion seeing the night sky... It's an affirmation of life. It's very moving. I imagine we'll see each other again at the Pokémon League. Take care."

"Prepare to blast through the atmosphere! When you play with an Infinite Parallel universes theme deck, the fantastic powers of the cosmos are at your command! Palkia's Transback attack knocks an opponent's forces off the battlefield—making it almost impossible to put together an offensive against you! And, once you've silenced your opposition, Exploud will rip parallel universes apart with its Ambient Noise attack that blasts them out into nothingness!"

Is Exploud going to get a 2-A rating too? Or is space in that sentence means parallel universe but space in the next one just means regular space.

See above. This is a hilariously huge and desperate false equivalence when comparing someone who is a ruler of space and literally is space to a random mon that has nothing to do with either.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
I can't argue a negative. This is the equivalent of saying the franchise doesn't say the reflection cave doesn't not have a infinite chain of universes. It also doesn't not say that the refelction cave universes are closed finite loop.

I however did argue that the reflection cave is finite in size and therefore cannot hold an infinite amount of portals. There's no evidence to suggest this finite object can hold infinite objects. Especially since the characters have travelled through them, passing countless portals on their way through it.

And its a good thing our argument for Reflection Cave isn't that each individual cave with mirrors is infinite.

ProfessorKukui4Life · Mar 5, 2021

Executor_N0 said:
Snip

Is this referring to the whole Giratina stuff from here?

Greenshifter · Mar 5, 2021

Yeah I mean Executor seems to have summed it up extremely well. So yeah Palkia and Dialga being masters of substance isn’t contradicted since Giratina is the master of anti-substance. This means that the WoG isn’t using flowery language and that there is no real counter argument to 2-A anymore.

Executor_N0 · Mar 5, 2021

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Is this referring to the whole Giratina stuff from here?

Yes, is the quickest thing that I can talk about since is stuff from the same interview that the whole "infinite space and infinite time" is from.

ProfessorKukui4Life · Mar 5, 2021

Executor_N0 said:
Yes, is the quickest thing that I can talk about since is stuff from the same interview that the whole "infinite space and infinite time" is from.

Ahh okie then. Wanted 2 ask for clarity.

SomebodyData · Mar 5, 2021

I see, well while you're here, Execut0r, any opinion on the statement regarding "Infinite time and infinite space — that to me is the ‘ultimate."?

Iamunanimousinthat · Mar 5, 2021

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
We have scans directly proving it means parallel universes. So no, its not absurd.

And obviously we're talking about Space in the context of the god tiers, not in general for anything unrelated to them anyway.

That is not true at all. The quote from Lucian is about an artist talking about the night sky. He's not talking about any of the god tiers. You bolded that quote and are claiming it to be a proof that space is infinite and that since space is a reference to parallel universes that there must be infinite parallel universes. Your argument falls apart if space doesn't mean parallel universe, and it doesn't.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
See above. This is a hilariously huge and desperate false equivalence when comparing someone who is a ruler of space and literally is space to a random mon that has nothing to do with either.

I'm just applying your own logic and arguments to the statement. You said that space = parallel universes. The game says Exploud can tear space apart. Why is it a false equivalence to use your own logic to say that Exploud can tear parallel universes apart. Why is space in one sentence mean parallel universe but then doesn't in the following sentence?

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
And its a good thing our argument for Reflection Cave isn't that each individual cave with mirrors is infinite.

You would then have to prove that every universe that the caves link to is unique and no other cave links to it and that this goes on indefinitely. You have no evidence to suggest that and nothing in the episodes suggest that.

ProfessorKukui4Life · Mar 5, 2021

Iamunanimousinthat said:
That is not true at all. The quote from Lucian is about an artist talking about the night sky. He's not talking about any of the god tiers.

From a book in Canalave Library that holds Sinnoh Lore within it.

And even then, Lucian isn't the only evidence used for it. Or did you not see the scan of Palkia being the creator of parallel universes?

Iamunanimousinthat said:
You bolded that quote and are claiming it to be a proof that space is infinite and that since space is a reference to parallel universes that there must be infinite parallel universes. Your argument falls apart if space doesn't mean parallel universe, and it doesn't.

It does. The scans were provided for that.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
I'm just applying your own logic and arguments to the statement. You said that space = parallel universes. The game says Exploud can tear space apart. Why is it a false equivalence to use your own logic to say that Exploud can tear parallel universes apart. Why is space in one sentence mean parallel universe but then doesn't in the following sentence?

Because one is quite obviously speaking about Palkia's role in the cosmology and how space works under it's dominion. Space being Palkia's literal main bread and butter.

The other is speaking about something Exploud doesn't do in any way, shape or form and isn't known to do that in any way, shape or form.

Thus, its a false equivalence.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
You would then have to prove that every universe that the caves link to is unique

The blog literally proves this...............

Ash & Company visiting a mirror world with versions of them that have opposite different personalities, which alludes to the universes in the caves being different and not the same.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
and no other cave links to it and that this goes on indefinitely.

Ash's universe and the mirror universe that linked to his world were linked through specifically one mirror. And in order to go back to his world, Ash needed to go through that exact specific mirror he entered.

Which wouldn't have been a requirement if any other mirror aside from that one could do the same thing.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
You have no evidence to suggest that and nothing in the episodes suggest that.

See above. It does.

And gives more implication and evidence then your magical point on being conservative.

Executor_N0 · Mar 5, 2021

SomebodyData said:
I see, well while you're here, Execut0r, any opinion on the statement regarding "Infinite time and infinite space — that to me is the ‘ultimate."?

I think it could refer to to. Diamond/Pearl/Platinum were the ultimate games because of all the gameplay elements, and also because it dealt with the ultimate concepts of the franchise, about time, space, matter, antimatter, spirit, etc. Thinking in this way, "infinite time and infinite space" could be referring to what Dialga and Palkia are, so they could be the "Infinite time" and "infinite space". And since Palkia is "Infinite space" talking about spatial dimensions and parallel universes, it could be used to say that there are "infinite dimensions".

Of course, it "could". Because in the end what is said can have multiple interpretations and the conclusion of "infinite space" for them might not be "infinite universes", because they aren't connecting the same dots that we could.

I think that unless there's a more direct "there are infinite universes" statement, I could at least think of a "possibility" for 2-A (Still, using the Pokémon Masters "infinite universe" statement from the English version with the "the Pokémon translation are made with direct supervision from the Japanese team with direct access to the deeper setting of the world so they can be sure to make the most correct translation that trully reflects the world of Pokémon is made" would be far easier to be accepted than an "infinite space and infinite time" statement that needs so many dots to be connected to proof the 2-A ranting)

ProfessorKukui4Life · Mar 5, 2021

The problem im having with this opposing argument is that the meaning of "infinite space" should be precisely and blatantly clear when we use context as to what space in Pokemon, in the context of the god tier trio, is referring to.

Which is why my blog uses the additional statements of what space is to give evidence that its speaking about the broader multiverse by referring to parallel universes. And if said space is infinite, using this quote, that brings us infinite universes right there. Thats literally the closest thing to getting infinite universes without the words stamped onto of it.

And that's not even counting the rest of what I used in the blog, such as the Many Worlds Interpretation and the countless Ultra Wormholes (which becomes infinite in this context with this quote).

Greenshifter · Mar 5, 2021

Executor_N0 said:
Of course, it "could". Because in the end what is said can have multiple interpretations and the conclusion of "infinite space" for them might not be "infinite universes", because they aren't connecting the same dots that we could

Wouldn’t the other option be an infinite-sized universe? Which at the time might not have meant infinite universes, but due to the retroactive addition of MWI it would mean infinite universes now.

ProfessorKukui4Life · Mar 5, 2021

Greenshifter said:
Wouldn’t the other option be an infinite-sized universe? Which at the time might not have meant infinite universes, but due to the retroactive addition of MWI it would mean infinite universes now.

Considering the fact that even before the point of the XY/ORAS games, which brought us to the 2-B status the verse has now, D/P and even Gen 5 alluded to the existence of a Multiverse (the space = parallel universes point all come from Gen 4 material and the Entralink in Gen 5 right afterwards blatantly treats the different game units as parallel worlds)

This option doesn't fit with the given context.

Executor_N0 · Mar 5, 2021

Greenshifter said:
Wouldn’t the other option be an infinite-sized universe? Which at the time might not have meant infinite universes, but due to the retroactive addition of MWI it would mean infinite universes now.

It definitely could be another option, as I said the "infinite space" being used to refer to "infinite universes" needs to connect that Palkia is "Master of Space and Dimensions" and exists in the "space between dimensions" and so on. If you remove this line of thought and only think about Palkia being related to one universe and not "parallel universes" as well, you could get a single "infinite universe". There are lots of possibilities here.

Planck69 · Mar 5, 2021

Honestly, after all this I'm still not seeing how that statement is really flowery. It seems to take far mor assumptions than necessary to say that he wasn't literal in his meaning, at least in some form.

Iamunanimousinthat · Mar 5, 2021

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
From a book in Canalave Library that holds Sinnoh Lore within it.

And even then, Lucian isn't the only evidence used for it. Or did you not see the scan of Palkia being the creator of parallel universes?

I didn't argue that Palkia didn't create Parallel unvierses. I am arguing is that there is no evidence that he created infinite parallel universes.

Lucian isn't evidence at all. The space he's talking about is starry sky. That's not evidence of infinite parallel universes. You cannot say that the use of infinite space in that context means parallel universes.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Because one is quite obviously speaking about Palkia's role in the cosmology and how space works under it's dominion. Space being Palkia's literal main bread and butter.

The other is speaking about something Exploud doesn't do in any way, shape or form and isn't known to do that in any way, shape or form.

Thus, its a false equivalence.

It is not a false equivalence. The TCG is literally describing Palki and Exploud working together.

Palkia's Transback attack knocks an opponent's forces off the battlefield—making it almost impossible to put together an offensive against you! And, once you've silenced your opposition, Exploud will rip space apart with its Ambient Noise attack that blasts them out into nothingness!"

This is literally describing Palkia setting up a move and then Exploud finishing it up. They're working in tandem.

You cannot argue that within this same paragraph, space when in reference to Palkia means parallel universes, but then the same space in reference to Exploud doesn't mean parallel universes even though exploud and Palkia are working together to achieve the same goal of winning the battle and are effecting the same space???

Either TCG Exploud is 2-A outlier OR the space that TCG is talking about isn't synonymous to parallel universes. Which is more likely?

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
The blog literally proves this...............

Ash & Company visiting a mirror world with versions of them that have opposite different personalities, which alludes to the universes in the caves being different and not the same.
Ash's universe and the mirror universe that linked to his world were linked through specifically one mirror. And in order to go back to his world, Ash needed to go through that exact specific mirror he entered.

Which wouldn't have been a requirement if any other mirror aside from that one could do the same thing.
See above. It does.

And gives more implication and evidence then your magical point on being conservative.

I meant unique, as in each universe links to a unique set of universes that no other universe links to.

A links to B and B links to C but A doesn't Link to C. And no other universe links to both A and C other than B. (also C could link to D and D can link to A; which would create a finite chain where all universes have a unique connections to each other making a unique chain of universes that isn't infinite.)

There's also nothing to suggest that A can't link to B, C, D while B is also linking to A, C, D and so on and so on.

Like I said, It could be a A to B to C chain (which can be infinite or finite) or it can be one big elaborate loop where all the universes link to each other (which can only be finite).

The anime doesn't specify which and you can't use this as proof that it is infinite as there is just as much chance for it being finite.

Greenshifter · Mar 5, 2021

Yeah I’m aware the infinite universe option isn’t likely. My point was more that you end up with 2-A regardless of which interpretation you pick. (And I was essentially saying that if Masuda didn’t have the multiverse on his mind during the interview but just the universe then that only temporarily impacts the verse till the introduction of Gen 6)

Although @Executor_N0 if you take the statement at face value I only see 2 options really, what other possibilities do you see?

StrymULTRA · Mar 5, 2021

Here it depends if what's going to be accepted just the physical universe or the whole of the universes, which would get just the same levels of 2-A regardless of what's choosen.

Only ones who'd get affected from this are basically the 4-Bs due of how much light would Necrozma absorb.

StrymULTRA · Mar 5, 2021

Iamunanimousinthat said:
I meant unique, as in each universe links to a unique set of universes that no other universe links to.

A links to B and B links to C but A doesn't Link to C. And no other universe links to both A and C other than B. (also C could link to D and D can link to A; which would create a finite chain where all universes have a unique connections to each other making a unique chain of universes that isn't infinite.)

There's also nothing to suggest that A can't link to B, C, D while B is also linking to A, C, D and so on and so on.

Like I said, It could be a A to B to C chain (which can be infinite or finite) or it can be one big elaborate loop where all the universes link to each other (which can only be finite).

The anime doesn't specify which and you can't use this as proof that it is infinite as there is just as much chance for it being finite.

That would much likely be a further point for the "possibly 2-A" as is pretty vague in itself, is basically a 50/50.

ProfessorKukui4Life · Mar 5, 2021

Iamunanimousinthat said:
I didn't argue that Palkia didn't create Parallel unvierses. I am arguing is that there is no evidence that he created infinite parallel universes.

And that bit isn't relevant to this discussion. The point is that Palkia being the creator of parallel universes gives context to what Space means in Pokemon's totality with Palkia, that it's beyond the scope of the universe and means parallel universes. That = multiverse.

Space being infinite and parallel universes brings us to Infinite Parallel universes using said context. Which is why context is important.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
Lucian isn't evidence at all. The space he's talking about is starry sky. That's not evidence of infinite parallel universes. You cannot say that the use of infinite space in that context means parallel universes.

I can when this is lore involving the same Gen as it comes from a place explicitly dedicated to doing that. And its obviously referring to more than starry skies, especially when this said quote speaks about stretching beyond time and space. The latter in which is obviously referring to the broader world in Pokemon.

So yes he's absolutely evidence, and your idea that it isn't is blatantly ridiculous.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
It is not a false equivalence. The TCG is literally describing Palki and Exploud working together.

It is, since Exploud isn't a being considered to have dominion over space at all.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
Palkia's Transback attack knocks an opponent's forces off the battlefield—making it almost impossible to put together an offensive against you! And, once you've silenced your opposition, Exploud will rip space apart with its Ambient Noise attack that blasts them out into nothingness!"

This is literally describing Palkia setting up a move and then Exploud finishing it up. They're working in tandem.

See above. "Ripping space apart" for Exploud is far more likely just referring to its ability to make loud noises, which the species is commonly known to do.

And even then, even if that was literal for him, ripping apart apart is far inferior to what Palkia does, what it's known to do, and what it represents.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
You cannot argue that within this same paragraph, space when in reference to Palkia means parallel universes, but then the same space in reference to Exploud doesn't mean parallel universes even though exploud and Palkia are working together to achieve the same goal of winning the battle and are effecting the same space???

I absolutely can when one is the representation and ruler of space in the cosmology of their world and the other isn't anything of the sort. The comparison is nonsense. And you can see above for this point too.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
Either TCG Exploud is 2-A outlier OR the space that TCG is talking about isn't synonymous to parallel universes. Which is more likely?

You kinda just answered and debunked your own question. Or simply put that ripping space apart, even if literal for Exploud, simply means ripping space and not the totality of literally everything?

Either way you slice this, my argument still holds.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
I meant unique, as in each universe links to a unique set of universes that no other universe links to.

A links to B and B links to C but A doesn't Link to C. And no other universe links to both A and C other than B. (also C could link to D and D can link to A; which would create a finite chain where all universes have a unique connections to each other making a unique chain of universes that isn't infinite.)

And my example gives proof that alludes to that with each universe only being linked via a specific mirror that connects them.

Asking for more to get specific spoon-feeding is stonewalling.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
There's also nothing to suggest that A can't link to B, C, D while B is also linking to A, C, D and so on and so on.

See above. This is speculation from you that has absolutely no basis, and we don't accept scenarios that are baseless and don't have anything in the slightest.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
Like I said, It could be a A to B to C chain (which can be infinite or finite) or it can be one big elaborate loop where all the universes link to each other (which can only be finite).

It could /= it does.

Again, you need a basis for your scenario. Which you don't have.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
The anime doesn't specify which and you can't use this as proof that it is infinite as there is just as much chance for it being finite.

Which at the absolute worst only makes Reflection Cave a "possibly" and nothing solid from either or.

Iamunanimousinthat · Mar 5, 2021

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
And that bit isn't relevant to this discussion. The point is that Palkia being the creator of parallel universes gives context to what Space means in Pokemon's totality with Palkia, that it's beyond the scope of the universe and means parallel universes. That = multiverse.

Space being infinite and parallel universes brings us to Infinite Parallel universes using said context. Which is why context is important.

Again, at best you can argue that multiversal space is infinite. That there being infinite universes in this space is pure speculation and nothing out right says this.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
I can when this is lore involving the same Gen as it comes from a place explicitly dedicated to doing that. And its obviously referring to more than starry skies, especially when this said quote speaks about stretching beyond time and space. The latter in which is obviously referring to the broader world in Pokemon.

So yes he's absolutely evidence, and your idea that it isn't is blatantly ridiculous.

It's not lore. It's Lucian quoting a letter by an artist to his brother about the stars in the sky. There's nothing about palkia, or parallel worlds or even

This is the full quote:

"...Ah, hello. You’re here to read, too? Books are wonderful things. The thoughts of people written in books stretch beyond time and space. I was just reading a collection of letters written by an artist long ago. More precisely, they were written to the artist's younger brother. 'The stars above tantalize from across infinite space. Feeling their gaze from so far away, I am charmed again by life.' The artist must have come to a conclusion seeing the night sky... It's an affirmation of life. It's very moving. I imagine we'll see each other again at the Pokémon League. Take care."

There is nothing here about stretching beyond time and space.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
It is, since Exploud isn't a being considered to have dominion over space at all.
See above. "Ripping space apart" for Exploud is far more likely just referring to its ability to make loud noises, which the species is commonly known to do.

And even then, even if that was literal for him, ripping apart apart is far inferior to what Palkia does, what it's known to do, and what it represents.

?? this makes no sense. Space in reference to Palkia means parallel universes but space in reference to Exploud means making loud noises? This is just picking and choosing what a word means.

Palkia and Exploud are working together and are effecting the same space together. Palkia is setting up for Exploud. You cannot wave away Exploud's connection to space in that paragraph because it contradicts your space = parallel universe statement.

The Lucian and TCG statements of infinite space have nothing to do with parallel universes and cannot be applied as evidence for your 2-A, the only thing you have is the Masuda statement which to be honest is just vague. He talks about physically trading pokemon around the world.

I could see the argument of each game being a parallel universe, and his mention of infinite time and space, could refer to the different games. But we know that the games are in the millions are are definitely not infinite.

Your argument is really dependent on the assumption that space = parallel universe and none of the statements make sense when you substitute space with parallel universe. Especially since not all universes in Pokémon are parallels universes and there are unique universes.

Like I said, infinite multiversal space is the most concrete thing all this evidence is pointing too.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Asking for more to get specific spoon-feeding is stonewalling.
See above. This is speculation from you that has absolutely no basis, and we don't accept scenarios that are baseless and don't have anything in the slightest.
It could /= it does.

Again, you need a basis for your scenario. Which you don't have.
Which at the absolute worst only makes Reflection Cave a "possibly" and nothing solid from either or.

I'm not stonewalling. I am out right saying there is no evidence that suggests that there is infinite parallel universes via the reflection cave and that there being finite parallel universes via the reflection cave is equally just as possible based on the evidence we're giving.

Like you said, It could /= it does. Just cause it could be infinite universes doesn't mean it is. I am simply showing you that there are multiple different explanations that fit.

Like from one single episode you're trying to claim that there are infinite versions of the anime universe when that same episode doesn't even state that as certain. The reflection cave in the games doesn't have any portals or mention of them.

M2B3 · Mar 5, 2021

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
No, I agreed with the saying "the argument is non-existent" isn't an argument in itself. I never agreed with you. So you can kindly stop giving misinformation.

Sigh... I was saying it in jest but you really do need to jog your memory.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
No, its gathering scans together. Which is allowed and obviously very basic form of evidence gathering.

Gathering scans together and stitching sentences together are two entirely different things.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
they all mean the same thing.

Prove it.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Except they very much do and the scans provide that.

They don't.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
"The Creator of Parallel Universes"

"Space is ever-expanding dimensions"

I did.

Delicious ad nauseam. I can do that too. Nothing here is proof that space means parallel universes. Him being the creator of parallel universes is entirely unrelated to whether there is an infinite amount of them. What did I call it again? Oh yeah, Not mutually exclusive.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
It absolutely can because anything can mean more than one thing. Common Sense. And this "halfway across the world" claim for something from the same region and gen? Nice.

As long as we are willing to accept the premise that giving things new meanings on the spot such as giving the word "space" the meaning of "parallel universes", for example, the yeah, sure. Unfortunately, you're not the authority on what words can and cannot mean and as such no one has to take your interpretations of them as law. Either you can conclusively prove that the word space can, and does, mean "parallel universes" by some form of already established consensus or you cannot. There are no inbetweens.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
They don't need to be used together when both are referring to the same thing. Space.

Still haven't proved that.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
That isn't what I said, or meant, obviously.

This is exactly what you said, lmfao. I have you quoted on that on three separate occasions and your original post hasn't been edited at all. Going "w-wuh w-what n-no I didn't" is completely pointless.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Not a point. The point is that it still alludes to what the Multiverse is. "Dependence" is irrelevant and has nothing to do with this.

Very much a point. You're still yet to prove that it alludes to a multiverse instead of a universe, let alone what kind of a multiverse it is. Stop parading your speculation as fact.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
And that's not what my point was about so I don't care. My point was that the expansion of space clearly and most definitely needs to be referring to the number of universes, as that's the only way a Multiverse comes about in the first place. Pokemon isn't a large scale universe, so space being expanded in the beginning means its the creation of the Multiverse's universes.

It most definitely is or you wouldn't have bothered to type it out. Even if that is the only way that a multiverse can come into being, the "space" in the Original One story still doesn't need to be referring to parallel universes because the Original One Story simply doesn't need to be referring to the multiverse at all to begin with. And it isn't. The word "space" just doesn't have a secondary definition that could be interpreted as meaning "multiverse". If they'd meant to say "multiverse", they would have said so. Not to mention that, regardless of your explanation, the actual literal space of each individual universe still needs to come into being and expand anyways. So even if you could interpret "space" as meaning "multiverse", which you most definitely can't, your argumentation still wouldn't conclusively prove that it's meaning that specifically anyways.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Nope. Several meanings for one thing very much exist at once.

Nope. Either the meaning exists or it doesn't. You own fan-fictional meanings that you invented 10 seconds ago are not relevant.

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
It should be clear. It means you don't dictate what counts as evidence and what doesn't.

Neither do you.

ProfessorKukui4Life · Mar 5, 2021

Iamunanimousinthat said:
Again, at best you can argue that multiversal space is infinite. That there being infinite universes in this space is pure speculation and nothing out right says this.

And I don't care, because we don't need anything "outright said" when we have sufficient context to prove that result is the case.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
It's not lore. It's Lucian quoting a letter by an artist to his brother about the stars in the sky. There's nothing about palkia, or parallel worlds or even

Its coming from a library that has a collection of lores in the same Gen and games involving said god tiers. This information is included in the information the games give us. So yes it is and it can be included.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
This is the full quote:

I don't need something I already have in my evidence reiterated to me.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
"...Ah, hello. You’re here to read, too? Books are wonderful things. The thoughts of people written in books stretch beyond time and space. I was just reading a collection of letters written by an artist long ago. More precisely, they were written to the artist's younger brother. 'The stars above tantalize from across infinite space. Feeling their gaze from so far away, I am charmed again by life.' The artist must have come to a conclusion seeing the night sky... It's an affirmation of life. It's very moving. I imagine we'll see each other again at the Pokémon League. Take care."

There is nothing here about stretching beyond time and space.

"The thoughts of people written in books stretch beyond time and space."

Iamunanimousinthat said:
?? this makes no sense. Space in reference to Palkia means parallel universes but space in reference to Exploud means making loud noises? This is just picking and choosing what a word means.

No, its going off precisely what is known about both Pokemon. Which is extremely simple. The freaking statement even references the Exploud lines noise ability.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
Palkia and Exploud are working together and are effecting the same space together.
Palkia is setting up for Exploud. You cannot wave away Exploud's connection to space in that paragraph because it contradicts your space = parallel universe statement.

I very much can when one Pokemon is very much known to do what the other is not known to do in the slightest. And even with that nonsense being taken, it would simply mean Exploud is ripping apart space. It has nothing to do with space throughout the totality of the cosmology in scale.

It contradicts nothing.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
The Lucian and TCG statements of infinite space have nothing to do with parallel universes and cannot be applied as evidence for your 2-A

They do.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
the only thing you have is the Masuda statement which to be honest is just vague. He talks about physically trading pokemon around the world.

Which is about the game mechanic aspect of the game, not the lore and storyline that he goes into talking about right afterwards. It's not vague at all.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
I could see the argument of each game being a parallel universe, and his mention of infinite time and space, could refer to the different games. But we know that the games are in the millions are are definitely not infinite.

This is a non-argument. The blog already addresses this.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
Your argument is really dependent on the assumption that space = parallel universe and none of the statements make sense when you substitute space with parallel universe.

Its not an assumption because we know for a very known fact that these guys are what they represent in the Multiverse. Palkia is the Multiverse's space, which is obviously referring to parallel universes. And we have the given scans that outright prove this.

And your only points against this is an ad-nasuem of "x isn't proof for y" without any basis behind them.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
Especially since not all universes in Pokémon are parallels universes and there are unique universes.

Thats....still a parallel universe.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
Like I said, infinite multiversal space is the most concrete thing all this evidence is pointing too.

And like I said, its wrong for the reasons I gave in the blog and in this thread. "Multiversal Space" still means parallel universes, just as we've been saying space refers to, and that gets us to 2-A by itself.

It's that simple.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
I'm not stonewalling. I am out right saying there is no evidence that suggests that there is infinite parallel universes via the reflection cave and that there being finite parallel universes via the reflection cave is equally just as possible

Which is stonewalling as you have no basis to your counter argument other than "it can", "it could". Your using speculation on top of speculation to go against a basis for what we have is more likely for infinite universes.

And even then, as Strym said, this would be 50/50 at the absolute worst and doesn't completely make it a non-factor.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
based on the evidence we're giving.

Like you said, It could /= it does. Just cause it could be infinite universes doesn't mean it is. I am simply showing you that there are multiple different explanations that fit.

And we would be going with the explanation that has the most basis to it. Which would be our argument that's its infinite.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
Like from one single episode you're trying to claim that there are infinite versions of the anime universe when that same episode doesn't even state that as certain. The reflection cave in the games doesn't have any portals or mention of them.

We claim infinite versions because each version is supposed to be different from one another, which is proven by the depiction of said mirror universes that allude to the M.W.I. theory.

Thus, it puts this closer to infinite than it does to your claim of finite.

ProfessorKukui4Life · Mar 5, 2021

M2B3 said:
Sigh... I was saying it in jest but you really do need to jog your memory.

No need, because I never agreed with you. Understand that and we can move on.

M2B3 said:
Gathering scans together and stitching sentences together are two entirely different things.

This is the former. Gathering scans together.

M2B3 said:
Prove it.

They're speaking about space. Aka, the same thing. Simple.

M2B3 said:
They don't.

They do.

M2B3 said:
Delicious ad nauseam. I can do that too. Nothing here is proof that space means parallel universes.

It does when "Parallel universes" is outright used in the scan.

M2B3 said:
Him being the creator of parallel universes is entirely unrelated to whether there is an infinite amount of them.

Yes? We know that. But it does equate to infinite when said space, which is parallel universes, is also cited as infinite.

Both evidences support this together.

M2B3 said:
What did I call it again? Oh yeah, Not mutually exclusive.

And they very much are.

M2B3 said:
As long as we are willing to accept the premise that giving things new meanings on the spot such as giving the word "space" the meaning of "parallel universes", for example, the yeah, sure.

Which we are, because evidence is a beautiful thing and it works in this case.

M2B3 said:
Unfortunately, you're not the authority on what words can and cannot mean and as such no one has to take your interpretations of them as law.

And I can say the same for you. I never said my words are law. But what is law is what the provided evidence results in.

And we brought forth evidence that proves our point, which becomes the correct result until you bring something to disprove said result.

M2B3 said:
Either you can conclusively prove that the word space can, and does, mean "parallel universes" by some form of already established consensus or you cannot. There are no inbetweens.

And we did, from scans from the games.

M2B3 said:
Still haven't proved that.

I have.

M2B3 said:
This is exactly what you said, lmfao. I have you quoted on that on three separate occasions and your original post hasn't been edited at all. Going "w-wuh w-what n-no I didn't" is completely pointless.

It isn't. See below for what I actually meant.

M2B3 said:
Very much a point. You're still yet to prove that it alludes to a multiverse instead of a universe, let alone what kind of a multiverse it is. Stop parading your speculation as fact.

It alludes to a Multiverse because we quite obviously know Pokemon isn't a single universe. Thus it cannot be speaking about a universe but beyond such, which means the Multiverse.

So no, not speculation. And not my problem if you don't want to personally accept that.

M2B3 said:
It most definitely is or you wouldn't have bothered to type it out.

Or more like you misinterpreted what I actually said and thought I meant something else, which I didn't. But go figure.

M2B3 said:
Even if that is the only way that a multiverse can come into being, the "space" in the Original One story still doesn't need to be referring to parallel universes because the Original One Story simply doesn't need to be referring to the multiverse at all to begin with. And it isn't.

It does, since the original story is speaking about the creation of the Multiverse in that context. And we know it is because Pokemon is a multiverse, not a single timeline.

M2B3 said:
The word "space" just doesn't have a secondary definition that could be interpreted as meaning "multiverse". If they'd meant to say "multiverse", they would have said so.

No they wouldn't and it doesn't matter, because context is a thing you like to ignore.

Just like "world" = universe, multiverse, and the totality of the cosmology, which we very much accept and go by on this site, space in this context of the verse's origins is very much the same thing. And why? Because we know Pokemon is now a multiverse in which later material blatantly prove.

So either you argue against these guys creating a multiverse, or concede to space and time in this context referring to the multiverse. Simple as that.

M2B3 said:
Not to mention that, regardless of your explanation, the actual literal space of each individual universe still needs to come into being and expand anyways. So even if you could interpret "space" as meaning "multiverse", which you most definitely can't, your argumentation still wouldn't conclusively prove that it's meaning that specifically anyways.

Irrelevant. It still means an infinite amount of universes would be created. Space expanding in that manner doesn't negate that no matter what.

M2B3 said:
Nope. Either the meaning exists or it doesn't. You own fan-fictional meanings that you invented 10 seconds ago are not relevant.

Not what my point was. My point was that something can be considered multiple things, provided the evidence proves so. And it does.

The meaning exists.

M2B3 said:
Neither do you.

Nope, but the standards on this site and what we do here do. And they side with me.

Also, kindly drop the condescending tone please or I will have report you

InfiniteDay · Mar 5, 2021

I agree.

Gohanblanco217 · Mar 5, 2021

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
No need, because I never agreed with you. Understand that and we can move on.

This is the former. Gathering scans together.

They're speaking about space. Aka, the same thing. Simple.

They do.

It does when "Parallel universes" is outright used in the scan.

Yes? We know that. But it does equate to infinite when said space, which is parallel universes, is also cited as infinite.

Both evidences support this together.

And they very much are.

Which we are, because evidence is a beautiful thing and it works in this case.

And I can say the same for you. I never said my words are law. But what is law is what the provided evidence results in.

And we brought forth evidence that proves our point, which becomes the correct result until you bring something to disprove said result.

And we did, from scans from the games.

I have.

It isn't. See below for what I actually meant.

It alludes to a Multiverse because we quite obviously know Pokemon isn't a single universe. Thus it cannot be speaking about a universe but beyond such, which means the Multiverse.

So no, not speculation. And not my problem if you don't want to personally accept that.

Or more like you misinterpreted what I actually said and thought I meant something else, which I didn't. But go figure.

It does, since the original story is speaking about the creation of the Multiverse in that context. And we know it is because Pokemon is a multiverse, not a single timeline.

No they wouldn't and it doesn't matter, because context is a thing you like to ignore.

Just like "world" = universe, multiverse, and the totality of the cosmology, which we very much accept and go by on this site, space in this context of the verse's origins is very much the same thing. And why? Because we know Pokemon is now a multiverse in which later material blatantly prove.

So either you argue against these guys creating a multiverse, or concede to space and time in this context referring to the multiverse. Simple as that.

Irrelevant. It still means an infinite amount of universes would be created. Space expanding in that manner doesn't negate that no matter what.

Not what my point was. My point was that something can be considered multiple things, provided the evidence proves so. And it does.

The meaning exists.

Nope, but the standards on this site and what we do here do. And they side with me.

Also, kindly drop the condescending tone please or I will have report you

Gohanblanco217 said:
If there are 2 Staff who agree with this then I don't see why the changes can't be applied now

Sadistic_Sleuth · Mar 5, 2021

People are still contesting it wdym

ProfessorKukui4Life · Mar 5, 2021

I think he meant that with an outstanding number of non-staff support and 4 staff members supporting us, he questions why it isn't applied yet.

That said, its obviously still not time yet to do that and we should wait more.

JooCipher · Mar 5, 2021

this thread.....does put a smile on my face
hard agree btw

Shadowbokunohero · Mar 6, 2021

2-A for a sprite that gets rekt by my Piplup?, I think not.

Joking aside I agree with this. (but don't make me read so much again)

ProfessorKukui4Life · Mar 6, 2021

Shadowbokunohero said:
2-A for a sprite that gets rekt by my Piplup?, I think not.

But water seal > baby penguin. OwO

And thank you for your assistance here.

LordTracer · Mar 6, 2021

I disagree for the sole reason that this doesn’t scale to Serperior.

UwU

ProfessorKukui4Life · Mar 6, 2021

LordTracer said:
I disagree for the sole reason that this doesn’t scale to Serperior.

UwU

~~You say this like it is a bad thing u.u~~

LordTracer · Mar 6, 2021

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
~~You say this like it is a bad thing u.u~~

Serperior is the best mon

Ned_the_outer_god · Mar 6, 2021

LordTracer said:
Serperior is the best mon

You mean the "superior" mon

LordTracer · Mar 6, 2021

Ned_the_outer_god said:
You mean the "superior" mon

~~Yes you’re right~~

Axxtentacle · Mar 6, 2021

So, is this... done?

2-A Pokemon Upgrade Revival: The Time Has Come

El SiD

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