Shadow Slave: Type 1 concepts and 1A absolute laws

[S33rz]

This CRT will be revising concepts within shadow slave.

Saints, Sovereigns and the world.​

To begin, we Will have to understand the nature of one's Source element, Spirit essence and the world.

Shadow Slave chapter 1581

His soul was filled with a cold ocean of essence, and that essence… it had already grown more potent after he had acquired Soul Weave. But now, it had become qualitatively different, possessing such depths and density as to appear inexhaustible. The intensity of power contained within it was frightening.

That was not the most shocking change, however.

The most shocking change… was that he could vaguely feel a different kind of energy all around him, cool and flowing, that was similar, but also different from the essence he was familiar with. That ambient essence seemed to belong to the world itself.

Or rather, to the shadows that surrounded him.

And since he was currently in total darkness, it was everywhere.

What really amazed him, though, was that the spirit essence flowed freely through him, wisps of it replenishing the missing shadow essence in his six cores. It was as if he was able to replenish his reserves of essence by borrowing the power of the world itself, as long as he was in his element.

'A stronger body, a qualitative change of essence, and an entirely new relationship between myself and the world…'

Sunny flinched.

As early as Transcendence, a Saint gains a qualitative change in their relationship between themselves and the world. This is further explained by Sunless mentioning how a person's soul begin's to come into contact with the world at this stage.

Shadow Slave chapter 1618

Saints did not exist in and of themselves, as sovereign beings. Their souls were vaster than their bodies, coming into contact with the world and the underlying laws governing it. Some parts of the world welcomed them, while others repelled them. That was why Transcendent beings were able to absorb the spirit essence of the world, as long as they were in their element.

For Sunny, that element was shadow. For someone like Saint Tyris, it was the sky, or perhaps storm clouds. For someone like Nephis… he couldn't guess. It might have been light, or flame, or something more esoteric, like inspiring longing in the souls of other beings.

Therefore… he guessed that what came after the body, the mind, and the souls was the world. Incorporating the world itself into one's battle art would probably make it a supreme battle art. That said, Sunny was not sure if it could even be called a battle art, at that point, let alone how to actually achieve something like that.

In any case, he was voraciously curious to witness and experience the battle styles of other Transcendent warriors. To learn from them, and maybe even gain more understanding about the path to supremacy.

These fit the definition of Type 2 concepts, especially when their nature is infused into the spirit of the Sovereign.

Shadow Slave chapter 3105

And those were not the only boons Shadow Weave granted him, either.

The power granted to those his seven shadows augmented was enhanced, while the seven shadows themselves became more tenacious and difficult to destroy. The range and intricacy of his Shadow Step was increased. The innate affinity of his Will deepened, making it stronger as far as visiting death upon living beings went. Sunny was the Sovereign of Death, after all, and Death had been created by Shadow. So when he accepted Shadow Weave, the Death aspect of his spirit was greatly enhanced.

Shadow Slave 2719

Sunny himself, however, felt a bit different.

The Spirit Weave had augmented his Will, making the world feel much more malleable. It altered the inherent nature of his Will, as well, granting it a second innate affinity — or at least greatly enhancing what had already been there.

Before, the main trait of Sunny's will was Death. Now, however, he also felt a strong connection to Fate. He did not know what to do with that affinity, and honestly, it was quite paradoxical for his Will to possess it — after all, he was a fateless being.

Shadow Slave 2248

At that moment, Nephis felt a profound change happen to her.

It was as if a brilliant spark of a beautiful golden hue had ignited in the blinding radiance of her fiery soul, making the immolating white flames seem dim in comparison.

That spark was a catalyst.

But it was not a catalyst for her soul becoming Supreme — instead, it was a catalyst that ignited her nascent Domain, making it swell with heat, with light… with life.

The fragile, ethereal connections she had established to countless people who had been inspired by her suddenly shone with a breathtaking radiance, and the radiance spread through the vast web of them, chasing away the encroaching darkness.

Her source element underwent a change, as well… no, not quite. It remained the same — however, it was as if the floodgates that prevented Nephis from experiencing it fully had been opened, and the shallow trickle of essence she had been receiving before turned full and powerful like a freely flowing river.

The dam had been broken.

Each of the countless people whose souls had been ignited by the flames of longing was a source of this radiant spirit essence, and as the spirit essence flowed into Nephis, her own essence was galvanized by it, undergoing a qualitative transformation.

Making her Supreme.

Therefore the spirit of Sovereigns should include concept Type 2 and Saints should possess Limited Concept type 2 interaction with their souls.

Spirits and Type 1 concepts.​

Leaving that behind lets talk about Spirits and their concepts.

According to Asterion, the concepts which are held by Spirits encompass an entire realm and fuse with the laws that govern it, we however also know that these concepts themselves existed before time and are independent of the things they govern. An example would be the Concept of destruction, which not only exists before time but can erase all of existence requiring it to be independent of said existence for it's continuation and has a counterpart in the Concept of creation itself, Spirits should thus have Type 1 concepts as a result.

In addition, this concept of destruction is capable of affecting the very foundation of the world, which is a plane of existence that houses these Type 1 concepts, the metaphysical residence of these concepts as they are Type 1 concepts should be at least Low1A as a result.

Shadow Slave chapter 3100

It was just that when the merciless radiance of Godgrave collided with the boundless sea of elemental darkness, something that no one could define, let alone fathom, was unleashed. A dreadful cataclysm shook the very foundation of the world, happening on higher planes of existence than what mortals could perceive.

The universal laws of existence themselves were shaken by the unimaginable calamity, groaning and twisting around the ancient city. That upheaval echoed in the material world, causing untold devastation and making the colossal stalagmite quake. The mountain-sized stalactites above swayed, as well, and enormous slabs of stone fell from the distant ceiling of the great cavern.

Absolute laws.​

Finally, we shall discuss Absolute Laws. For ease of information, you may refer to this blog.

• Absolute laws govern all of existence, with Divine beings and their "Essence" which encompass all of existence being woven into the universal laws that rule it, becoming the very essence of these laws individually present within the metaphysical foundation of all realms.

It might be easier to understand if you limit the scope of the comparison. What differentiates Spirits from Sovereigns? A Transcendent's soul expands beyond the confines of their mortal shell. A Supreme's soul draws on their source element and grows to encompass a Domain. A Spirit, meanwhile... a Spirit is an embodiment of their source element. They are beings whose souls encompass an entire realm, fusing with the laws that govern it. A Divine being, meanwhile — a true god — is someone whose essence encompasses all of existence, woven into the universal laws that rule it.

• Absolute concepts, exist prior and above concepts such as Destruction and Creation, being created even before all of existence and are already accepted as Type 1 concepts, thus they should fulfill this criteria.

Far above, Nephis was drifting in the harrowing white abyss of the godless sky.

There was no wind here, no hope, and no salvation. Only silence and blinding radiance that went beyond fire, beyond light, beyond heat. That radiance was destruction incarnate… it was destruction itself, a force from before time existed that was capable of erasing entire worlds from existence. Of erasing existence itself.

Nephis was burning.

Her body was made of flame, but even that flame was being destroyed.

Her soul was turning to ash, and the ashes of her soul were turning into nothingness.

There, in that merciless white abyss…

• These concepts exist one and the same with the God's, who do not possess seperate souls, bodies and soul sea's instead they are all the same thus lacking internal complexity in their identity. It is even stated that everything that Shadow swallowed died, and everything that died was swallowed by Shadow. Essentially saying the distinction between Death and Shadow does not exist, and that something is only participating in Death when participating in Shadow. Such that without Shadow's, Death itself is impossible. The Subject (Death) and the Predicate (Dying/Dies) are all treated as one and thesame, Shadow God. This would thus scale the God's to 1A as well.

Shadow slave chapter 1302

Description: [When Shadow made death, he has become death. Everything that Shadow swallowed died, and everything that died was swallowed by Shadow. Death was an absolute law, and thus, that which was everchanging was everchanging no more. Time was an absolute law, and thus, that which was everlasting was everlasting no more.

Space was an absolute law, and thus, that which was endless was endless no more. Wielding time, space, and death, the gods defeated and bound their enemies.

However, there were those who defied even absolute laws. One of these beings broke free of the Shadow Realm after being swallowed by it, and in doing so, splintered several small fragments of it. This is one of the fragments.]

As per these statements by Ultima, as shadow God is Deathness itself, requiring one to participate with his own nature to participate in the absolute law of death, he would at least scale to these concepts and the plane that houses these Concepts should scale to 1A.


Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Seraphor12]

Essentially saying the distinction between Seath and Shadow does not exist, and that something is only participating in Death when participating in Shadow.

Ig this should be death

 

[Floxy178]

This would thus scale the God's to 1A as well.

Is this only for "perfect" Gods?

 

[Seraphor12]

Is this only for "perfect" Gods?

Basically those 7 gods(bums), like shadow god, storm god, sun god etc.

 

[Floxy178]

Basically those 7 gods(bums), like shadow god, storm god, sun god etc.

? I'm asking if that'd also apply to post imperfection law versions as well or not.

 

[Seraphor12]

? I'm asking if that'd also apply to post imperfection law versions as well or not.

I think yes, because that law didn't really affected their ontology.

 

[S33rz]

Is this only for "perfect" Gods?

? I'm asking if that'd also apply to post imperfection law versions as well or not.

I think they should scale to it, the major reason why Daemon's can be the Flaws of the God's has to do with the nature of their Flame/Connection to the Forgotten One. This shouldn't affect their scaling.

Also, would you be so kind as to tag some mods. It would be better if we could get this show on the road.

 

[Floxy178]

Also, would you be so kind as to tag some mods. It would be better if we could get this show on the road

The thread just got created, if it doesn't get attention in a day or two I may tag them. (no need to bother them immediately when they're already mostly overloaded)

 

[S33rz]

The thread just got created, if it doesn't get attention in a day or two I may tag them. (no need to bother them immediately when they're already mostly overloaded)

Very well, thank you.

 

[karo_senpaii]

This CRT will be revising concepts within shadow slave.

Saints, Sovereigns and the world.​

To begin, we Will have to understand the nature of one's Source element, Spirit essence and the world.

Shadow Slave chapter 1581


As early as Transcendence, a Saint gains a qualitative change in their relationship between themselves and the world. This is further explained by Sunless mentioning how a person's soul begin's to come into contact with the world at this stage.

Shadow Slave chapter 1618


These fit the definition of Type 2 concepts, especially when their nature is infused into the spirit of the Sovereign.

Shadow Slave chapter 3105


Shadow Slave 2719


Shadow Slave 2248


Therefore the spirit of Sovereigns should include concept Type 2 and Saints should possess Limited Concept type 2 interaction with their souls.

Spirits and Type 1 concepts.​

Leaving that behind lets talk about Spirits and their concepts.

According to Asterion, the concepts which are held by Spirits encompass an entire realm and fuse with the laws that govern it, we however also know that these concepts themselves existed before time and are independent of the things they govern. An example would be the Concept of destruction, which not only exists before time but can erase all of existence requiring it to be independent of said existence for it's continuation and has a counterpart in the Concept of creation itself, Spirits should thus have Type 1 concepts as a result.

In addition, this concept of destruction is capable of affecting the very foundation of the world, which is a plane of existence that houses these Type 1 concepts, the metaphysical residence of these concepts as they are Type 1 concepts should be at least Low1A as a result.

Shadow Slave chapter 3100

I disagree with this being for spirits. This should specifically be for divine rank. Even in the scan you're using, asterion makes a distinction that seems to denote that only at divine rank do you embody a concept that governs all of existence.

Also we've been familiar with sacred/cursed. They seem to embody type 3/2 concepts most of the time. For example "condemnation" , "adjudication" , "abundance".

So yeah I think this should apply to divine rank and not sacred

Absolute laws.​

Finally, we shall discuss Absolute Laws. For ease of information, you may refer to this blog.

• Absolute laws govern all of existence, with Divine beings and their "Essence" which encompass all of existence being woven into the universal laws that rule it, becoming the very essence of these laws individually present within the metaphysical foundation of all realms.

• Absolute concepts, exist prior and above concepts such as Destruction and Creation, being created even before all of existence and are already accepted as Type 1 concepts, thus they should fulfill this criteria.

• These concepts exist one and the same with the God's, who do not possess seperate souls, bodies and soul sea's instead they are all the same thus lacking internal complexity in their identity. It is even stated that everything that Shadow swallowed died, and everything that died was swallowed by Shadow. Essentially saying the distinction between Death and Shadow does not exist, and that something is only participating in Death when participating in Shadow. Such that without Shadow's, Death itself is impossible. The Subject (Death) and the Predicate (Dying/Dies) are all treated as one and thesame, Shadow God. This would thus scale the God's to 1A as well.

Shadow slave chapter 1302


As per these statements by Ultima, as shadow God is Deathness itself, requiring one to participate with his own nature to participate in the absolute law of death, he would at least scale to these concepts and the plane that houses these Concepts should scale to 1A.


Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

This I fully agree with

 

[S33rz]

I disagree with this being for spirits. This should specifically be for divine rank. Even in the scan you're using, asterion makes a distinction that seems to denote that only at divine rank do you embody a concept that governs all of existence.

These concepts are sufficiently independent from the particulars they govern, and do not rely on their material existence, i.e affecting them materially will not affect the concepts themselves so they can't be Type 2.

Also we've been familiar with sacred/cursed. They seem to embody type 3/2 concepts most of the time. For example "condemnation" , "adjudication" , "abundance".

Sunny embodies a Type 2 "Death" of which there "is" an Absolute law, Sunny however doesn't have Type 1. And we know Death as a concept is greater than these, heck even things like Fate can be embodied by Supreme's (at least within their spirit).

 

[karo_senpaii]

These concepts are sufficiently independent from the particulars they govern, and do not rely on their material existence, i.e affecting them materially will not affect the concepts themselves so they can't be Type 2.

That's the thing. We've seen the concepts that cursed and sacred wield, is there any evidence that they are independent?

Sunny embodies a Type 2 "Death" of which there "is" an Absolute law, Sunny however doesn't have Type 1. And we know Death as a concept is greater than these, heck even things like Fate can be embodied by Supreme's (at least within their spirit).

I mean you're kinda agreeing with me that you can be fused with a concept but not to the highest level there is. It's exactly how I'm saying even though they fuse with a realm, they don't embody the concepts governing that realm at the level you think. We already have the individual concepts they embody and there is no evidence for it being type 1

 

[S33rz]

That's the thing. We've seen the concepts that cursed and sacred wield, is there any evidence that they are independent?

Of course there is. Modret became Corrupted because the laws you must come in contact with in the Dream Realm is that of Corruption and the laws of the war realm deny the existence of Awakened.

“Mordret failed to achieve natural Apotheosis because that is the fate awaiting all of you, children of the War Realm, if you dare to try. That is because your own realm denies your existence... so, you are left with no choice but to attempt it here, in the Dream Realm. But what do you think will happen to someone who tries to fuse their soul with the laws of the Realm of Corruption?"

Ignoring the fact that if the gods or anyone really could simply rid corruption by destroying every corrupted being it would be long gone (except maybe Sun god who got busy with void beings), the Concept of destruction is similar in nature to Corruption, it exists in the Sun realm (which is now a part of the Dream realm) and is one of the laws there as well.

Far above, Nephis was drifting in the harrowing white abyss of the godless sky.

There was no wind here, no hope, and no salvation. Only silence and blinding radiance that went beyond fire, beyond light, beyond heat. That radiance was destruction incarnate… it was destruction itself, a force from before time existed that was capable of erasing entire worlds from existence. Of erasing existence itself.

Nephis was burning.

Her body was made of flame, but even that flame was being destroyed.

Her soul was turning to ash, and the ashes of her soul were turning into nothingness.

There, in that merciless white abyss…

It would therefore make no sense to say these concepts aren't independent since they don't rely on material existence.

It would also make no sense to say spirits do not fuse with them, as Modret who was becoming a spirit would be required to fuse with these laws by word of Asterion.

I mean you're kinda agreeing with me that you can be fused with a concept but not to the highest level there is. It's exactly how I'm saying even though they fuse with a realm, they don't embody the concepts governing that realm at the level you think. We already have the individual concepts they embody and there is no evidence for it being type 1

Why do you believe that the highest level there is to concepts in any verse must be type 1 by default?

Why wouldn't they, what statements are against my point across the series?

1. Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

Being fused with concepts which do not require material existence to keep functioning, is more than enough for Type 1.

 

[Verezen]

This CRT will be revising concepts within shadow slave.

Saints, Sovereigns and the world.​

To begin, we Will have to understand the nature of one's Source element, Spirit essence and the world.

Shadow Slave chapter 1581


As early as Transcendence, a Saint gains a qualitative change in their relationship between themselves and the world. This is further explained by Sunless mentioning how a person's soul begin's to come into contact with the world at this stage.

Shadow Slave chapter 1618


These fit the definition of Type 2 concepts, especially when their nature is infused into the spirit of the Sovereign.

Shadow Slave chapter 3105


Shadow Slave 2719


Shadow Slave 2248


Therefore the spirit of Sovereigns should include concept Type 2 and Saints should possess Limited Concept type 2 interaction with their souls.

Spirits and Type 1 concepts.​

Leaving that behind lets talk about Spirits and their concepts.

According to Asterion, the concepts which are held by Spirits encompass an entire realm and fuse with the laws that govern it, we however also know that these concepts themselves existed before time and are independent of the things they govern. An example would be the Concept of destruction, which not only exists before time but can erase all of existence requiring it to be independent of said existence for it's continuation and has a counterpart in the Concept of creation itself, Spirits should thus have Type 1 concepts as a result.

In addition, this concept of destruction is capable of affecting the very foundation of the world, which is a plane of existence that houses these Type 1 concepts, the metaphysical residence of these concepts as they are Type 1 concepts should be at least Low1A as a result.

Shadow Slave chapter 3100

Absolute laws.​

Finally, we shall discuss Absolute Laws. For ease of information, you may refer to this blog.

• Absolute laws govern all of existence, with Divine beings and their "Essence" which encompass all of existence being woven into the universal laws that rule it, becoming the very essence of these laws individually present within the metaphysical foundation of all realms.

• Absolute concepts, exist prior and above concepts such as Destruction and Creation, being created even before all of existence and are already accepted as Type 1 concepts, thus they should fulfill this criteria.

• These concepts exist one and the same with the God's, who do not possess seperate souls, bodies and soul sea's instead they are all the same thus lacking internal complexity in their identity. It is even stated that everything that Shadow swallowed died, and everything that died was swallowed by Shadow. Essentially saying the distinction between Death and Shadow does not exist, and that something is only participating in Death when participating in Shadow. Such that without Shadow's, Death itself is impossible. The Subject (Death) and the Predicate (Dying/Dies) are all treated as one and thesame, Shadow God. This would thus scale the God's to 1A as well.

Shadow slave chapter 1302


As per these statements by Ultima, as shadow God is Deathness itself, requiring one to participate with his own nature to participate in the absolute law of death, he would at least scale to these concepts and the plane that houses these Concepts should scale to 1A.


Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

Looks good

 

[MrKerf]

@ActuallySpaceMan42 , sorry man, but do your thing.

 

[RaveeCPN]

I disagree.

Along with Absolute Laws, the Void and 7 Gods etc., you need to scale Nothingness to 1-A as well. Since its the only (no)thing that can containt the Void.



There are people/beings that can control Nothingness and its potency litteraly depends on the mastery + how much Nothingness the person contains.



We litteraly see Time Saint (who is definitely not 1-A) being able to use his aspect, even though his powers should be nulled by the Nothingness. Nephis can be augmented by "full power" of her Aspect as well, when Absence (who has much more Nothingness than Saint and can control it better) used Nothingness to suppress their powers.





IDK if I should quote the FAQ but imma do it anyways:

Q: Are there any disqualifiers for qualitative superiority?

A: The potential disqualifiers largely revolve around the aforementioned aspect of inaccessibility: A qualitative superiority is completely irreducible to anything lesser than itself, and conversely, it cannot be reached by any additive process whatsoever.

The first practical effect of this fact is that the power of a 1-A character cannot be dispersed so much that it reaches into a lower tier. Since there is no conceivable extension of any lower tier that can yield equality to a 1-A structure, neither can there be any subdivision (Even an infinite subdivision) of 1-A that reduces down into such tiers.

 

[Seraphor12]

.

This is not a response to your objection(I will try to reply tomorrow about that ig), I just wanted to clarify what is being argued for 1-A here.
Basically, the concept of death, time, space etc are not 1A, and neither are their instances. Instead, the ontological ground on which they're grounded is 1-a. So, characters affecting time or resisting it is not relevant, as it is not 1-a to start with. The essence of them is 1-A and if they can affect essence then they would be 1-A. Absolute law of death was grounded on shadow god's divinity. And also, to clarify what I mean with Absolute law, in verse, they call the absolute law of death not just as concept which erases corruption from souls after death but also shadows being destroyed by shadow god, peoples dying, the concept of death, Shadow god himself, all of that are called as the functions of one absolute law. So, I meant absolute law in that sense. For time, space we don't know which god created them, but we know that gods created them so someone among those 6 bums should be the ground for those absolute laws too. If not them then it must be Flame.

 

[RaveeCPN]

This is not a response to your objection(I will try to reply tomorrow about that ig)

Aight, take your time

 

[S33rz]

Along with Absolute Laws, the Void and 7 Gods etc., you need to scale Nothingness to 1-A as well. Since its the only (no)thing that can containt the Void.

I only need to scale Flame to at least 1-A, I don't think Nothingness itself needs such a thing.

There are people/beings that can control Nothingness and its potency litteraly depends on the mastery + how much Nothingness the person contains.

They control it because their power's come from their Aspect, which as I'll add is derived from the Flame.

I'm sorry but your argument is the same as saying because Sunless has "A" concept of death within his spirit then "No" concept of death can be 1A, which makes no sense.

The entire reason why Nothingness acts this way once it enters the cage of desire is because of the law of imperfection affecting the world. Said Laws are carved upon the Flame.

"Because one can't exist without the other. Imperfection is also an absolute law, just like death… and so, nothing is flawless. Even the world itself is flawed. Even the gods, who were born flawless, are not perfect anymore. And so, we humans are flawed, too."

"It is in the depths of the Flame. Life is war; peace is death… these are the laws carved into existence by the Incarnations of Flame."

Even humans are ontologically reduced by the source Flame such that they must remove the seals placed upon them to further their ascension.

If the Spell had the ability to laugh, it would surely do so after hearing his thoughts. However, it didn't. Instead, it began to speak again:

[The First Seal is broken.]

[Awakening dormant powers…]

Why would Nothingness be any different then?

We litteraly see Time Saint (who is definitely not 1-A) being able to use his aspect, even though his powers should be nulled by the Nothingness. Nephis can be augmented by "full power" of her Aspect as well, when Absence (who has much more Nothingness than Saint and can control it better) used Nothingness to suppress their powers.

Aspects themselves being able to remain unaffected by Nothingness in this case isn't an anti feat. In fact, Nothingness affecting anything and anyone within the cage of desire, which I'll add is even meant to even bind void beings within it (Void beings being sent to shadow realm even temporarily) shouldn't even be brought up as an anti feat.

 

[RaveeCPN]

I only need to scale Flame to at least 1-A, I don't think Nothingness itself needs such a thing.

Uh, if you're scaling the Flame to 1-A then by extention you're scaling the Void, too. Which necessarily scales Nothingness to 1-A.

They control it because their power's come from their Aspect, which as I'll add is derived from the Flame.

Their Aspect allows them to manipulate the Nothingness. It doesn't matter where the ability derived from. The issue is its potency is not 1-A, which is what Nothingness supposed to be.

The entire reason why Nothingness acts this way once it enters the cage of desire is because of the law of imperfection affecting the world. Said Laws are carved upon the Flame.

Thats not what the scan says but aight?

Just because the Law of Imperfection makes things flawed doesn't mean 1-A things now can reduce themselves to non 1-A things.

Gods were also flawed due to that but their main bodies were still 1-A.



Either you'll need to argue that the Law of Imperfection made Nothingness non 1-A as a whole, which is weird since the same Nothingness still holds the Void prisoned. Or you need to admit that you're wrong.

Even humans are ontologically reduced by the source Flame such that they must remove the seals placed upon them to further their ascension.

Uh? Thats not "flame reducing Humans". The humans are "sparks" of the Flame, thus they hold the potential to become a greater one. Not that they're "Gods" once but the Laws reduced them or shi'.



So, they're not reduced. That's just how they came to be.

Aspects themselves being able to remain unaffected by Nothingness in this case isn't an anti feat.

Unjustified.

 

[Verezen]

I disagree.

Along with Absolute Laws, the Void and 7 Gods etc., you need to scale Nothingness to 1-A as well. Since its the only (no)thing that can containt the Void.



There are people/beings that can control Nothingness and its potency litteraly depends on the mastery + how much Nothingness the person contains.



We litteraly see Time Saint (who is definitely not 1-A) being able to use his aspect, even though his powers should be nulled by the Nothingness. Nephis can be augmented by "full power" of her Aspect as well, when Absence (who has much more Nothingness than Saint and can control it better) used Nothingness to suppress their powers.





IDK if I should quote the FAQ but imma do it anyways:

We can handle everything else that scales to and above the Absolute laws after this, that should be a simple enough crt. There is no need to overcomplicate the crt by bringing up other things and asking "well how does this independently scale to 1A", the focus of this crt should be "are the arguements presented in the original post accurate", because obviously if the absolute laws are 1A, their source of power (The flame of desire) would also be, and therefore Nothing, which was utilized as a weapon by said Gods can be implied to be empowerd by said Gods, or at the very least its clearly of the same level. You fully understand this, given your own stances outside this crt.

 

[RaveeCPN]

We can handle everything else that scales to and above the Absolute laws after this, that should be a simple enough crt.

You can't since this is litteraly an anti-feat to the proposal.

Stop trying to dodge the issue with "we can't talk this about later lol, let this pass first”

 

[Verezen]

There are people/beings that can control Nothingness and its potency litteraly depends on the mastery + how much Nothingness the person contains.

I mean this right here is self defeating, the ones wielding Nothing against the Void aren't some randoms, but the supposedly 1A Gods in question.

 

[RaveeCPN]

I mean this right here is self defeating, the ones wielding Nothing against the Void aren't some randoms, but the supposedly 1A Gods in question.

Absence and Saint can wield Nothingness as well, Verezen. And you already know it, if you're not you can take a look to the scans I sent above.

 

[S33rz]

Uh, if you're scaling the Flame to 1-A then by extention you're scaling the Void, too. Which necessarily scales Nothingness to 1-A.

If shadow God is 1A then I guess every instance of death has to be 1A, right?

Again, there's no correlation between this and the proposal.

Just because the Law of Imperfection makes things flawed doesn't mean 1-A things now can reduce themselves to non 1-A things.

Gods were also flawed due to that but their main bodies were still 1-A.

Nothingness isn't necessarily 1A.

God's are literal void beings, why is there any correlation between them and Nothingness.

Uh? Thats not "flame reducing Humans". The humans are "sparks" of the Flame, thus they hold the potential to become a greater one. Not that they're "Gods" once but the Laws reduced them or shi'.

Explain what the heck "seals" mean then. There's a difference between you just hold potential and there's actual seals being broken when you rise higher.

And I never said they were God's once or anything, these laws existed prior to their existence.

So, they're not reduced. That's just how they came to be.

Ignoring the literal creation myth of the laws being prior to them.

Unjustified

How? Why should Nothingness be able to affect things which I say again derive from Flame. Are you saying Nothingness is greater than Flame?

 

[S33rz]

Absence and Saint can wield Nothingness as well, Verezen. And you already know it, if you're not you can take a look to the scans I sent above.

And I'll repeat myself, Should every instance of Death be 1A because Shadow God is 1A. Answer the question and stop being disingenuous.

 

[Verezen]

Uh, if you're scaling the Flame to 1-A then by extention you're scaling the Void, too. Which necessarily scales Nothingness to 1-A.



Their Aspect allows them to manipulate the Nothingness. It doesn't matter where the ability derived from. The issue is its potency is not 1-A, which is what Nothingness supposed to be.


Thats not what the scan says but aight?

Just because the Law of Imperfection makes things flawed doesn't mean 1-A things now can reduce themselves to non 1-A things.

Gods were also flawed due to that but their main bodies were still 1-A.



Either you'll need to argue that the Law of Imperfection made Nothingness non 1-A as a whole, which is weird since the same Nothingness still holds the Void prisoned. Or you need to admit that you're wrong.


Uh? Thats not "flame reducing Humans". The humans are "sparks" of the Flame, thus they hold the potential to become a greater one. Not that they're "Gods" once but the Laws reduced them or shi'.



So, they're not reduced. That's just how they came to be.


Unjustified.

Rave, why are you larping as an opposition. You know full well the context of the verse. Everyone and everything is quite literally sealed. This is awakening is literally referred to as breaking the seals, it is also directly stated that the Void beings were sealed through the absolute laws. There are also numerous instances in the work itself where Transcendent and above level characters claim that the laws of existence were suppressing their power. Propoganda machine is too high

 

[Verezen]

Absence and Saint can wield Nothingness as well, Verezen. And you already know it, if you're not you can take a look to the scans I sent above.

Yes, and they aren't necessarily wielding them to 1A affects, do you see them taking on Divines or messing with the Void? mind you that too wouldn't be an issue considering their source of power is the flame of Desire, which is necessarily 1A if the Absolute laws in question are 1A (since that is literally what gave rise to them lol)

 

[Verezen]

You can't since this is litteraly an anti-feat to the proposal.

Stop trying to dodge the issue with "we can't talk this about later lol, let this pass first”

Hence why I said its not an anti feat to the proposal, because if the proposal is true then everything else falls in line.

 

[RaveeCPN]

If shadow God is 1A then I guess every instance of death has to be 1A, right?

Huh? Whats that have to do with Nothingness lmao.

Nothingness litteraly cages the Void. It is the only thing that is able to "STOP" the Void.

Thus 1-A. Stop dodging the argument and answer why sealing the Void is not 1-A.

Nothingness isn't necessarily 1A.

God's are literal void beings, why is there any correlation between them and Nothingness.

Gods are Void Beings in a sense that the Flame is born from the Void and Gods are bron from the Flame.

IDK what correlation you're talking about.

The Void is 1-A by this proposal
Nothingness is 1-A due to scaling to it
Nothingness is not irreducable to non 1-A.

This means Nothingness is not 1-A
Non 1-A's (obviously) cannot seal/cage/stop 1-A things.

Which, again, means the Void is not 1-A
By extension, the Flame is not as well.

Explain what the heck "seals" mean then. There's a difference between you just hold potential and there's actual seals being broken when you rise higher.

And I never said they were God's once or anything, these laws existed prior to their existence.

The seals are used to explain how they're "opening/reaching" their potential. Not that Laws are reduced Humans and sealed their potentials because they're Flawed.

Read the scan for gods sake lmao

Ignoring the literal creation myth of the laws being prior to them.

I'm not ignoring it lol, I already posted the scan that explains how Humans came to be.

Read.

Why should Nothingness be able to affect things which I say again derive from Flame. Are you saying Nothingness is greater than Flame?

Scan is not working for me.
Either way IDK what this has to do with anything what I'm saying.

And I'll repeat myself, Should every instance of Death be 1A because Shadow God is 1A. Answer the question and stop being disingenuous.

I still don't see what this has to do with what I'm saying. Feel free to explain.

Rave, why are you larping as an opposition. You know full well the context of the verse. Everyone and everything is quite literally sealed. This is awakening is literally referred to as breaking the seals, it is also directly stated that the Void beings were sealed through the absolute laws. There are also numerous instances in the work itself where Transcendent and above level characters claim that the laws of existence were suppressing their power. Propoganda machine is too high

First, please stop responding 1 by 1. Just post it in a single message.

Second, stop calling everyone who disagrees with you "larper" or wtv bro.

Go and post scans that will mach your interperation instead just sending a scan that says "the seal is broken", when I already explained what that means and posted the scan that litteraly explains that Humans are not "reduced" and them became into existences as "sparks" of the Flame.

Yes, and they aren't necessarily wielding them to 1A affects, do you see them taking on Divines or messing with the Void? mind you that too wouldn't be an issue considering their source of power is the flame of Desire, which is necessarily 1A if the Absolute laws in question are 1A (since that is literally what gave rise to them lol)

Thats the issue, thanks.

Nothingness is quite litteraly divisible. Someone can contain "more" Nothingness than another (i.e Absence having more Nothingness than Saint)

And you can't divide a 1-A thing AND have a non 1-A at your hand. Read the FAQ for gods sake:

Q: Are there any disqualifiers for qualitative superiority?

A: The potential disqualifiers largely revolve around the aforementioned aspect of inaccessibility: A qualitative superiority is completely irreducible to anything lesser than itself, and conversely, it cannot be reached by any additive process whatsoever.

The first practical effect of this fact is that the power of a 1-A character cannot be dispersed so much that it reaches into a lower tier. Since there is no conceivable extension of any lower tier that can yield equality to a 1-A structure, neither can there be any subdivision (Even an infinite subdivision) of 1-A that

 

[Verezen]

Nothingness litteraly cages the Void. It is the only thing that is able to "STOP" the Void.

Thus 1-A. Stop dodging the argument and answer why sealing the Void is not 1-A.


Gods are Void Beings in a sense that the Flame is born from the Void and Gods are bron from the Flame.

Yes, and said Gods are 1A, a 1A being is bringing about 1A effects, don't see the issue here.

IDK what correlation you're talking about.

The Void is 1-A by this proposal
Nothingness is 1-A due to scaling to it
Nothingness is not irreducable to non 1-A.

This means Nothingness is not 1-A
Non 1-A's (obviously) cannot seal/cage/stop 1-A things.

Which, again, means the Void is not 1-A
By extension, the Flame is not as well.

Nothingness is only 1A when it's being used by 1A beings, who possess 1A potency hax, stop being obtuse. Theres no reducibility here, we just have a smurf going on. A 1A entity is empowering something to be capable of affecting another one. You're essentially assuming 1A while also not assuming 1A to make your argument stand; it makes zero sense.

The seals are used to explain how they're "opening/reaching" their potential. Not that Laws are reduced Humans and sealed their potentials because they're Flawed.

Read the scan for gods sake lmao

Lets go with that interpretation for arguements sake, now the "potential" is reaching the same ontological level as the Flame from which they emerged, hence 1A (for this arguements sake), now the seals are them being limited from that state, and as they break the seals they approach this level.

I'm not ignoring it lol, I already posted the scan that explains how Humans came to be.

Read.

Scan is not working for me.
Either way IDK what this has to do with anything what I'm saying.

So you accept that humans came from the flame of desire, and that aspects also come from it, yet have an issue with Nothingness (1A supposedly) being incapable of affecting aspects/having limited effect on aspects that are derived from the Flame (1A supposedly) ??? I think its clear to anyone who reads this that you're just ignoring how smurfs work

Second, stop calling everyone who disagrees with you "larper" or wtv bro.

Not calling you a larp for disagreeing, calling you a larp for understanding and agreeing with the logic on discord/other wiki but suddenly switching tones and pretending to be ignorant on here.

Go and post scans that will mach your interperation instead just sending a scan that says "the seal is broken", when I already explained what that means and posted the scan that litteraly explains that Humans are not "reduced" and them became into existences as "sparks" of the Flame.

Yes, "seal" means that something isn't at its full potential rather than it actually being sealed, a wonderful interpretation. Wheres your evidence for humans being limited by them being "sparks" of the flame rather than literally sealed (the word used in the scan, yk.) But sure, I'll be nice and find some other scans to support power being limited and characters having been sealed and weakened in verse.

Nothingness can quite litteraly divisible. Someone can contain "more" Nothingness than another (i.e Absence having more Nothingness than Saint)

Its the Gods making Nothingness 1A as they use it as a weapon; there is no support for Nothingness being 1A on its own without their influence or without the power of the flame. You are welcome to go against this and show me evidence of Nothing on its own without the gods' influence causing 1A effects.

 

[S33rz]

Huh? Whats that have to do with Nothingness lmao.

Nothingness litteraly cages the Void. It is the only thing that is able to "STOP" the Void.

Are you trolling? It has everything to do with it, do you believe every instance of Death is 1A or not as all instances are Shadow God.

Answer the question.

Thus 1-A. Stop dodging the argument and answer why sealing the Void is not 1-A.

Nothingness itself isn't 1A, God's used Nothingness to seal the Void means Nothing for it because it's the God's.

It's like saying because Shadow God ALSO used Death against Void beings and Sunny ALSO has a concept of Death within his spirit Sunny has to be 1A, it has no correlation to the argument.

In both instances, they are not the same thing, stop trying to make them such.

The Void is 1-A by this proposal
Nothingness is 1-A due to scaling to it
Nothingness is not irreducable to non 1-A.

Void cannot be just 1A, it would at least scale to the Flame. Nothingness does not scale to the Flame, and as such would not scale to Void either.

Absolute Law of Death is not irreducible either, again God's using Death to fight void beings wouldn't make all Death in Shadow Slave 1A, only that used against Void beings. Why are you so dead set on Nothingness being 1A then?

This means Nothingness is not 1-A
Non 1-A's (obviously) cannot seal/cage/stop 1-A things.

Which, again, means the Void is not 1-A
By extension, the Flame is not as well.

What is this take? Try addressing my points first.

The seals are used to explain how they're "opening/reaching" their potential. Not that Laws are reduced Humans and sealed their potentials because they're Flawed.

Read the scan for gods sake lmao

I could say the same to you, 1st seal is broken, 2nd seal is broken, so on and so forth for each time characters rise in rank, characters mentioning how the laws of existence limit them for thousands of chapter's for this kind of take?

I'm not ignoring it lol, I already posted the scan that explains how Humans came to be.

Then you're larping? That has to be the only answer.

One of the seven radiant figures was hopelessly caught among the terrifying shapes of the Void Creatures, unable to retreat. Nevertheless, the net of flames still enveloped the void, creating a cage around it.

And sealing the radiant figure in that cage with the beings of the Void.

Sunny shivered, a terrible understanding dawning on him.

He walked to the next scene and saw it…

Just before the net closed, forever sealing the Void, the radiant figure of the seventh god tore seven pieces of itself and sent them flying away. The radiant sparks — much brighter than the remnant sparks of the golden flame that would later become humans — escaped the cage just before it closed.

The final image was very similar to the one depicted in the drowned temple. It showed the familiar picture of forests, plains, river, and a vast sky… the world as Sunny knew it.

Humans were depicted in that image, as well, wandering the landscape as tiny dots.

Either that or just poorly done ragebait.

Scan is not working for me.
Either way IDK what this has to do with anything what I'm saying.

So you don't even know what you're arguing about?

I still don't see what this has to do with what I'm saying. Feel free to explain.

This has to ragebait, ain't no way.

Well, to make it simple.

If Nothingness=1A for affecting Void beings.
Then everything that affects Void beings=1A.
Death has affected Void beings=1A sunny because he has concept of death.
Do you agree?
If not, please explain why.
Hint: It's because said Death/Nothingness was being used by God's.

Heck, we know that you can use Will into objects to allow them to affect other Sovereigns.
Why should God's not be another case.

 

[RaveeCPN]

Yes, and said Gods are 1A, a 1A being is bringing about 1A effects, don't see the issue here.

Thats not the "whole" issue, yes.

Nothingness is only 1A when it's being used by 1A beings, who possess 1A potency hax, stop being obtuse. Theres no reducibility here, we just have a smurf going on. A 1A entity is empowering something to be capable of affecting another one. You're essentially assuming 1A while also not assuming 1A to make your argument stand; it makes zero sense.

Thats a head-canon.

You can see Nether was afraid of Nothingness and Noboy.

So you accept that humans came from the flame of desire, and that aspects also come from it, yet have an issue with Nothingness (1A supposedly) being incapable of affecting aspects/having limited effect on aspects that are derived from the Flame (1A supposedly) ??? I think its clear to anyone who reads this that you're just ignoring how smurfs work

Just because they're derived from the Flame doesn't mean they're now 1-A.

Both Sunny, Neph, Saint and other Corrupted Jade Saints were not 1-A at that time, when supposedly 1-A Nothingness cannot Power Null non 1-A haxes.

IDK why you're acting like just because they came into existence from a 1-A source, then they're somehow 1-A now.

Not calling you a larp for disagreeing, calling you a larp for understanding and agreeing with the logic on discord/other wiki but suddenly switching tones and pretending to be ignorant on here.

I don't think I agreed anything related to Nothingness anywhere, hell I even said pretty much the same thing about Nothingness to Seraphor few days ago.

Yes, "seal" means that something isn't at its full potential rather than it actually being sealed, a wonderful interpretation. Wheres your evidence for humans being limited by them being "sparks" of the flame rather than literally sealed (the word used in the scan, yk.) But sure, I'll be nice and find some other scans to support power being limited and characters having been sealed and weakened in verse.

You're shifting the burden on me.

Like, you don't have a scan that says "laws reduced Humans to that level and sealed their potential" as well. And you're somehow asking for me for a scan that litteraly says otherwise.

If we go by your logic, the Absolute Laws need to seal "everything" that they govern, including Gods.
They also have Flaws but you can't see them being "sealed" in the same way that you're arguing for Humans.

Its the Gods making Nothingness 1A as they use it as a weapon; there is no support for Nothingness being 1A on its own without their influence or without the power of the flame. You are welcome to go against this and show me evidence of Nothing on its own without the gods' influence causing 1A effects.

Again this is unsupported as well.

Nether is litteraly afraid of Nothingness, when the said Nothingness is not controlled by Gods.

Edit: Just in case, the whole idea of Nothingness is that it being the only (no)thing that can containt the Void. You can't say "yo it can do that because Gods amped it to 1-A", when by that logic Gods can amp whatever they want to seal it anyways.

This is my last reply btw. I'm not gonna answer @S33rz since the reply will so long + you're already defending the same proposal so I don't think my reply for him is needed. I also asked Shin to give his input when he's free so imma js wait for him

 

[S33rz]

This is my last reply btw. I'm not gonna answer @S33rz since the reply will so long + you're already defending the same proposal so I don't think my reply for him is needed. I also asked Shin to give his input when he's free so imma js wait for him

Yes it's needed, I would prefer if you didn't ignore me mentioning Shadow God using Death on Void beings doesn't mean Sunny has 1A Death as well. But that's fine, I'll add you as Disagree.

 

[Verezen]

Thats not the "whole" issue, yes.


Thats a head-canon.

You can see Nether was afraid of Nothingness and Noboy.


Just because they're derived from the Flame doesn't mean they're now 1-A.

Both Sunny, Neph, Saint and other Corrupted Jade Saints were not 1-A at that time, when supposedly 1-A Nothingness cannot Power Null non 1-A haxes.

IDK why you're acting like just because they came into existence from a 1-A source, then they're somehow 1-A now.


I don't think I agreed anything related to Nothingness anywhere, hell I even said pretty much the same thing about Nothingness to Seraphor few days ago.


You're shifting the burden on me.

Like, you don't have a scan that says "laws reduced Humans to that level and sealed their potential" as well. And you're somehow asking for me for a scan that litteraly says otherwise.

If we go by your logic, the Absolute Laws need to seal "everything" that they govern, including Gods.
They also have Flaws but you can't see them being "sealed" in the same way that you're arguing for Humans.


Again this is unsupported as well.

Nether is litteraly afraid of Nothingness, when the said Nothingness is not controlled by Gods.

Edit: Just in case, the whole idea of Nothingness is that it being the only (no)thing that can containt the Void. You can't say "yo it can do that because Gods amped it to 1-A", when by that logic Gods can amp whatever they want to seal it anyways.

This is my last reply btw. I'm not gonna answer @S33rz since the reply will so long + you're already defending the same proposal so I don't think my reply for him is needed. I also asked Shin to give his input when he's free so imma js wait for him

Since I said I'd be nice and grab scans to support my interpretation, here and here.

Now, I expect you to find scans that "seal" doesn't mean an actual seal but whatever your headcanon is positing it as.

"You can see Nether was afraid of Nothingness and Nobody." Nether was afraid of how it could be used to seal the Void beings. Which as I said, was done so by the Gods who used it as a weapon. No anti feat here.

"Just because they're derived from the Flame doesn't mean they're now 1-A." No, it doesn't. But if Nothing is 1A as you claim, then something with a 1A source resisting nothingness isn't an anti-feat for nothing. Mind you you still cannot prove Nothing on its own is capable of 1A things, thats entirely your headcanon.

"Both Sunny, Neph, Saint and other Corrupted Jade Saints were not 1-A at that time, when supposedly 1-A Nothingness cannot Power Null non 1-A haxes." More headcanon, they possess the will from the Flame, and could use it to go against Absolute laws/clash with beings that went against those laws. So yeah, they did have 1A hax, we will be addressing everyone that scales to these things in a follow up crt once we've delt with the 1A argument itself (as we've said numerous times).

"You're shifting the burden on me.

Like, you don't have a scan that says "laws reduced Humans to that level and sealed their potential" as well. And you're somehow asking for me for a scan that litteraly says otherwise.

If we go by your logic, the Absolute Laws need to seal "everything" that they govern, including Gods.
They also have Flaws but you can't see them being "sealed" in the same way that you're arguing for Humans."

it is clearly shown in verse that some beings can resist these seals, and do break past some of them. That is quite literally what awakening is. And the Gods are explicity stated to have been affected by the laws lmao which does show they too were affected. The burden to prove seal isn;t literal is resting entirely on you, especially now that I showed that the seal being removed literally caused an influx of power (and from within the character, which shows they weren't simply empowered to reach their "potential") and also the scan of even transcendents having to batter their will against the world; hell, it even explicitly discusses how higher ranks get stronger and can thus better exert their will to unleash more power.

"Again this is unsupported as well.

Nether is litteraly afraid of Nothingness, when the said Nothingness is not controlled by Gods." alr adressed this point

"This is my last reply btw. I'm not gonna answer @S33rz since the reply will so long + you're already defending the same proposal so I don't think my reply for him is needed. I also asked Shin to give his input when he's free so imma js wait for him" Shin from what I know hasn't read Shadow Slave and doesn't know anything of the verse but sure. I'll also highlight you haven't addressed Phantom's arguement about the law of death vs instantiations of death. But cool, thanks for your imput ig. important for the crts to face some kind of opposition.