Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[TMaakkonen]

Controversially, Eggman getting Sage to be real support is a good change. As long as redemption is off table, him getting true ally is a refreshing change of pace even if dad vibes are bit ripping off Bowser and Jr but oh well

 

[AyOgUyS]

It's time... Sonic Question Time!

Do you think Sonic would work better as a character who develops greatly over time, or as a static character who generally remains the same?

I've seen lots of varying opinions regarding this, so I figured I would ask here to you all. I personally don't mind Sonic being a static character, it's almost like a commentary on his stubbornness. What do you all think?

I think Sonic should stay mostly the same (though still with some character development here and there). Though it really depends on how SEGA decides to handle the franchise going forward, there's a lot they could do where some development for Sonic (and also his friends, SEGA PLEASE GIVE MY BOIS KNUX AND TAILS SOME DEVELOPMENT OR AT LEAST FOLLOW UP ON WHAT YOU SET UP IN FRONTIERS) would be appreciated :]

 

[MysticMania]

It's time... Sonic Question Time!

Do you think Sonic would work better as a character who develops greatly over time, or as a static character who generally remains the same?

I've seen lots of varying opinions regarding this, so I figured I would ask here to you all. I personally don't mind Sonic being a static character, it's almost like a commentary on his stubbornness. What do you all think?

I'd like for him to develop, partially because he can be one of the more boring characters when he's always the same in every circumstance in my opinion. I like how he impacts people around him, but those people having no impact on him does start to feel uninteresting pretty quickly. I guess I would say he can feel shallow in a way other characters don't, even if those characters don't really go through massive arcs or anything.

 

[SuperNunnas]

It's time... Sonic Question Time!

Do you think Sonic would work better as a character who develops greatly over time, or as a static character who generally remains the same?

I've seen lots of varying opinions regarding this, so I figured I would ask here to you all. I personally don't mind Sonic being a static character, it's almost like a commentary on his stubbornness. What do you all think?

We saw what kind of breed Sonic can be in the Black Knights game. Sonic would be better if he was a static character with sometimes acting like perfectly mature, while rest of the times he is same.

 

[TheStinkeer]

It's time... Sonic Question Time!

Do you think Sonic would work better as a character who develops greatly over time, or as a static character who generally remains the same?

I've seen lots of varying opinions regarding this, so I figured I would ask here to you all. I personally don't mind Sonic being a static character, it's almost like a commentary on his stubbornness. What do you all think?

Static character 10 times out of 10

 

[AyOgUyS]

I just realized.

Knuckles is said to be as strong as Sonic is fast.

Assuming Sonic is like MFTL+, is there any way for us to calc an AP value for Knuckles?

 

[TheStinkeer]

I just realized.

Knuckles is said to be as strong as Sonic is fast.

Assuming Sonic is like MFTL+, is there any way for us to calc an AP value for Knuckles?

Sadly no. I guess you could try to calculate the kinetic energy Sonic would get with his speed and have that be an AP value for Knuckles, but that's moreso a fun hypothetical

 

[TMaakkonen]

Asking again, what are some examples of Super forms having Invulnerability Negation? Wiki lists enemies that while they use Emeralds, they dont seem to be true Super forms and thus I dunno if theyd have Invulnerability by default.

 

[Tyranno223]

Asking again, what are some examples of Super forms having Invulnerability Negation? Wiki lists enemies that while they use Emeralds, they dont seem to be true Super forms and thus I dunno if theyd have Invulnerability by default.

Sonic Speed Simulator where Super Neo Metal and Super Sonic go toe to toe come to mind.

Does the Meteor Metal count as a Super form like the Superstar ones or the Mania Metal one? Cause Metal can harm Super Sonic there.

But there's probably better examples, I just can't think of many right now.

 

[TMaakkonen]

Doesnt Speed Simulator fight have him create shields that Super Sonic cant damage?

Meteor form from recent IDW Story might match in strength, but there is no Invulnerable statements for it iirc.

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

Doesnt Speed Simulator fight have him create shields that Super Sonic cant damage?

Meteor form from recent IDW Story might match in strength, but there is no Invulnerable statements for it iirc.

Yeah, when his shielded state is down Super Sonic can attack his unshielded body which should still be invulnerable because it’s a Super Form using all 7 emeralds

 

[Spinoirr]

 

[Alexander]

Why did we put that Sonic fought Erazor Djinn in a void without time and space, when he can still use the time break?actually where was it said that it is a void without time and space?

 

[ShakeResounding]

Asking again, what are some examples of Super forms having Invulnerability Negation? Wiki lists enemies that while they use Emeralds, they dont seem to be true Super forms and thus I dunno if theyd have Invulnerability by default.

As Lule said, Super Neo vs Super Sonic is the primary example of a Super v Super instance.

They moreso inherited the ability beforehand because of villains who use the Chaos Emeralds and then gain the ability to harm a Super Form henceforth.

• Solaris (Chaos Emeralds)
• Egg Salamander (Sol Emeralds)
• The 4 Titans (Chaos Emeralds, they even have a statement of being powered by "Chaos Emerald energy")
• Dark Gaia (strong connection to the Chaos Emeralds)

So they should logically have it as well, which Speed Simulator had just showcased and gave us a direct feat for (thank you Speed Sim).

 

[TMaakkonen]

Unsure if those bosses were intended to be invulnerable, but Ig. Thinking about potential arguments against Emeralds auto-giving Invulnerability to non-Super forms, there is Perfect Chaos but it only used negative energy so it might sneakily not count.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Unsure if those bosses were intended to be invulnerable, but Ig.

Not what I'm saying. It isn't that those bosses are invulnerable, it's that those are bosses that can harm/kill a Super Form after they used the Chaos/Sol Emeralds as their power source.

 

[TMaakkonen]

Not what I'm saying. It isn't that those bosses are invulnerable, it's that those are bosses that can harm/kill a Super Form after they used the Chaos/Sol Emeralds as their power source.

Ah I see. But then I can see arguments that that doesnt guarantee Inv Neg being shared ability between nonSuper and Super.

At least based Metal helps day again.

 

[ShakeResounding]

At least based Metal helps day again.

The TRUE hero...

 

[TMaakkonen]

The TRUE hero...

The True HUEro

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Ever since Frontiers essentially confirmed that Damage Transferral rings are canon, I've thought about the implications. This would mean Super Forms have essentially no durability feats, they've all been able to beat the boss by having the rings take the damage instead.

The only direct durability feats I recall are involving the eclipse cannon like in Shadow 05 where Super Shadow visibly took the energy from it at the end.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Ever since Frontiers essentially confirmed that Damage Transferral rings are canon, I've thought about the implications. This would mean Super Forms have essentially no durability feats, they've all been able to beat the boss by having the rings take the damage instead.

Super Sonic blocking The End's Kamehameha:
Super Neo Metal and Super Sonic dueling it out:

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Super Sonic blocking The End's Kamehameha:
Super Neo Metal and Super Sonic dueling it out:

1. Well to be fair that isn't like a direct durability feat he was using his own power to hold it back

2. I forgot that Roblox game was (sort of) canon

 

[TheStinkeer]

The only direct durability feats I recall are involving the eclipse cannon like in Shadow 05 where Super Shadow visibly took the energy from it at the end.

Wait, he did? I don't remember that. Didn't he teleport the Black Comet to space, teleport himself to the ARK, use the Chaos Emeralds to power the Eclipse Cannon and use it to destroy Black Comet and fulfil Gerald's wishes and the Cannon's purpose?

This would mean Super Forms have essentially no durability feats, they've all been able to beat the boss by having the rings take the damage instead.

I would have to disagree on this. Plus, I'm pretty sure in some games it's a mechanic that the higher defense/durability you have in comparison to the damage something deals, the less rings you lose

 

[Alexander]

Ever since Frontiers essentially confirmed that Damage Transferral rings are canon, I've thought about the implications. This would mean Super Forms have essentially no durability feats, they've all been able to beat the boss by having the rings take the damage instead.

The only direct durability feats I recall are involving the eclipse cannon like in Shadow 05 where Super Shadow visibly took the energy from it at the end.

YOU ARE BACK.
Also how many freaking times did Sonic get hit by something and didn't drop rings?yes they exists, but how MANY times did he got hit and didn't drop any?

 

[AyOgUyS]

1. Well to be fair that isn't like a direct durability feat he was using his own power to hold it back

Wouldn't Newton's Third Law just make all AP feats for Super Forms dura feats as well? Chaos energy is a UES as well.

 

[AyOgUyS]

YOU ARE BACK.
Also how many freaking times did Sonic get hit by something and didn't drop rings?yes they exists, but how MANY times did he got hit and didn't drop any?

Well here's some feats that didn't involve any rings:
1. Sonic survives an attack from the Time Eater
2. Sonic survives being thrown into a mountain by Giganto

 

[AyOgUyS]

I would have to disagree on this. Plus, I'm pretty sure in some games it's a mechanic that the higher defense/durability you have in comparison to the damage something deals, the less rings you lose

I think there are a few attacks from Solaris and the Time Eater that Super Sonic can just bulldoze through without losing rings. Also I'm pretty sure Super Sonic's Parry and Perfect Parry deflecting attacks from the Titans and The End would count as durability.

 

[TheStinkeer]

I see some people make a counterargument against Erazor absorbing the Arabian Nights as a valid feat because of "manipulating text" but honestly I don't get this since the text is the very source of existence for everything in the Arabian Nights. If you absorb the source of existence for let's say, a planet, and it empowers you, you'd probably be planetary.
I saw no other place to bring it up and I felt like yapping so yk srry about that

I think there are a few attacks from Solaris and the Time Eater that Super Sonic can just bulldoze through without losing rings. Also I'm pretty sure Super Sonic's Parry and Perfect Parry deflecting attacks from the Titans and The End would count as durability.

Super Sonic can't bulldoze through Solaris' attacks, rather his durability would scale from withstanding his attacks and losing abt 10 rings from them and charging into Solaris. BUT Time Eater is true, if you charge up Modern or Classic Super Sonic's attack they can bulldoze through any objects/attacks in the way. And parrying would 100% count for durability.

 

[Clockluckdoo]

It's time... Sonic Question Time!

Do you think Sonic would work better as a character who develops greatly over time, or as a static character who generally remains the same?

I've seen lots of varying opinions regarding this, so I figured I would ask here to you all. I personally don't mind Sonic being a static character, it's almost like a commentary on his stubbornness. What do you all think?

I wanted to see some changes to his rules of freedom(if surge or new character done something new no foe did), and see how it affects other he would offer to help in the next storylines.

 

[Clockluckdoo]

I see some people make a counterargument against Erazor absorbing the Arabian Nights as a valid feat because of "manipulating text" but honestly I don't get this since the text is the very source of existence for everything in the Arabian Nights. If you absorb the source of existence for let's say, a planet, and it empowers you, you'd probably be planetary.
I saw no other place to bring it up and I felt like yapping so yk srry about that

Are theirs argument genuine just "text aren't physical/doesn't affect World therefore it's hax's"?, because DAlf Layla wa-Layla use text as attack against Darkspin sonic.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Wait, he did? I don't remember that. Didn't he teleport the Black Comet to space, teleport himself to the ARK, use the Chaos Emeralds to power the Eclipse Cannon and use it to destroy Black Comet and fulfil Gerald's wishes and the Cannon's purpose?

He teleported it and the eclipse cannon fired while he was still there with the comet

I would have to disagree on this. Plus, I'm pretty sure in some games it's a mechanic that the higher defense/durability you have in comparison to the damage something deals, the less rings you lose

In most game guidebooks the rings have always been noted to have effects on characters. I think on site we even give healing hax through rings. That's from a SA2 manual. It's also present in dialogue mid game of the importance of rings in Super Form combat. We've historically considered it just a gameplay mechanic, but Frontiers shows that it has legitimate lore standing.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Well here's some feats that didn't involve any rings:
1. Sonic survives an attack from the Time Eater
2. Sonic survives being thrown into a mountain by Giganto

I wasn't listing off that he doesn't have any period, just that a lot of was ring clutches.

Oh yeah, now that you mentioned it ... Ever notice how the Time Eater spills out rings once it takes a fatal blow from the Super Sonics? It seems even it went to using up rings for itself, when it died through piercing it had no rings left spewing

 

[TheStinkeer]

Are theirs argument genuine just "text aren't physical/doesn't affect World therefore it's hax's"?, because DAlf Layla wa-Layla use text as attack against Darkspin sonic.

Some have that as an argument, but overall I'm focusing on the "Erazor just absorbs the text, therefore it's only hax and doesn't scale." We do know it definitely physically affects the world cause the game constantly notes Erazor is erasing the world.

He teleported it and the eclipse cannon fired while he was still there with the comet

Do you have proof he was still right there with the comet? It really seemed like he teleported to the ARK especially since the Eclipse Cannon runs off the Chaos Emeralds power

In most game guidebooks the rings have always been noted to have effects on characters. I think on site we even give healing hax through rings. That's from a SA2 manual. It's also present in dialogue mid game of the importance of rings in Super Form combat. We've historically considered it just a gameplay mechanic, but Frontiers shows that it has legitimate lore standing.

I wasn't saying rings didn't actually exist in lore, I was saying that some games portray stronger defenses as reducing the amount of rings you drop. I think 06 itself had a version of it?

 

[Alexander]

In most game guidebooks the rings have always been noted to have effects on characters. I think on site we even give healing hax through rings. That's from a SA2 manual. It's also present in dialogue mid game of the importance of rings in Super Form combat. We've historically considered it just a gameplay mechanic, but Frontiers shows that it has legitimate lore standing.

Yes and it is also consistently shown that they can tank many attacks that could theorically kill them even without the rings.
THE ENTIRE COMIC BOOK RUN OF IDW (Which is canon and has no gameplay restrictions) doesn't show a miserable ring used for protection to their own durability.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Sorry to bother yall again but uh I’m working on a verse wide CRT that will mostly consist of downgrades and have some hax removals.

So if anyone wants to help out contact me via DMs.

 

[TheStinkeer]

Sorry to bother yall again but uh I’m working on a verse wide CRT that will mostly consist of downgrades and have some hax removals.

So if anyone wants to help out contact me via DMs.

And what do the downgrades consist of?

 

[AyOgUyS]

And what do the downgrades consist of?

Well the project’s still in a very early stage so I don’t know exactly what will end up being downgraded. I will say though that Tier 1 will probably be nuked if it’s successful. There are some feats like the Advance 3 (I think?) feat of the Egg Mobile supposedly crossing galactic distances that are being targeted. And of course the cosmology (more specifically stuff like Eggman’s Terrasect and Maginaryworld are getting downgraded).

 

[TheStinkeer]

Well the project’s still in a very early stage so I don’t know exactly what will end up being downgraded. I will say though that Tier 1 will probably be nuked if it’s successful. There are some feats like the Advance 3 (I think?) feat of the Egg Mobile supposedly crossing galactic distances that are being targeted. And of course the cosmology (more specifically stuff like Eggman’s Terrasect and Maginaryworld are getting downgraded).

Advance 3's Egg Mobile feat was already addressed in this thread, I don't see how tier 1 can be nuked asides from the Hypertimeline stuff. Don't have much to say on Eggman's Tesseract but I feel like all the the Maginaryworld size stuff is pretty solid, only thing I can see going against it is it stated to be "fragile" but that seems to refer to one's heart since Maginaryworld & the Precioustone is born from those dreams

 

[AyOgUyS]

Advance 3's Egg Mobile feat was already addressed in this thread

I'll check that out later

 

[ShakeResounding]

Sorry to bother yall again but uh I’m working on a verse wide CRT that will mostly consist of downgrades and have some hax removals.

You can prepare it and whatnot but for the love of God, we already have like 6 threads in the pipeline and people who already want to queue up more, so I would advise to not just drop it at your discretion and instead communicate beforehand.

And of course the cosmology (more specifically stuff like Eggman’s Terrasect and Maginaryworld are getting downgraded).

Tesseract means just about diddly squat in the grand scheme of things, but I'm not sure how you'll be downgrading Maginaryworld.

Not trying to sound arrogant, Tier 1 Maginaryworld has already survived downgrade attempts before and is just about the most blatant Tier 1 structure you can get because it doesn't depend on universes being Low 2-C to be Tier 1. Have you seen the prior downgrade attempt(s), or are you swinging in blind in that regard?