Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[ChaoticSapphire]

Finally, I'm a little more free from uni.

Let's see what we got here.

Super Sonic VS Son Goku

Chaos Energy going "Don't you dare touch my Controller" - mode. Let's add the fact that hedgehog's Speed Amps are all in the blitzing range by nature.

Sonic VS Mario (both get everything)

If Super Sonic is restricted, it could be 55/45 for Blue. Danger Sense + insane Reaction Speed + "being the God of Acrobatics and Skills" would grant Sonic a better chance to use his hax.

Sonic VS The Flash (Barry)

My knowledge regarding this match is so pitiful. Idk.

Kirby VS Sonic

Doesn't Kirby only have AP adv vs Base Sonic? Hax involved, this seems a bit one-sided.

Sonic VS Mahoraga

A lightspeed quill vs an unstable atom .

Shadow VS Mewtwo

Feels like CE and Speed Amps carry.

 

[ChaoticSapphire]

Moreover, are there any ability/resistance that can possibly gain "layers" in the Game verse? (I'm kind of aware of the fact EggTech has smth against hacking).

 

[AyOgUyS]

Moreover, are there any ability/resistance that can possibly gain "layers" in the Game verse? (I'm kind of aware of the fact EggTech has smth against hacking).

I think we already have some kind of layered CM1.

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

If the arguments seems to take their most extremes, sorry about that. Another core for 1-A is that this higher planes are evolution towards the Chaos Force, which I do argue as being a ultimate reality.

To address your comment, well, higher plane in this case is different than most fiction you are talking about. Because in this case, I noted that the lower fundamental beings can compherend those who see themselves as fiction (because they are said to be authors of them), whereas this autho beings said to be from "world beyond world", while they can't even sense those of higher planes while they can do it with higher dimensional ones, meaning that higher planes of existence in this case is nothing same with higher dimensionality. About being beyond time-space, well, this case only applies to Knuckles, and context of it is that Knuckles is that he is outside of causality (hence why Aurora was saying he can't take actions, it would cease his natural position), and so he is outside of time as he is now covered with the very fabric of eternity, just to exist kinda like "is", nothing more (In my opinion, hence Knuckles lost his name and become just "Entity", this would be the case). About space in this case is, well, Knuckles became an "Entity", where all is him and he is all, so space becomes meaningless when there is no distinction, so there is no A to B at all. Those shouldn't be even seem extreme if this is aligns with the stuff IMO. This will be core argument.

For BoG case, well, I kinda argued that they are immaterial beings whose temporal omnipresent in short, so they are unbound by time and space, it is not about they are transcendent to time space or residing in higher dimensions, but just they are not limited to time and space.

But well, since I still didn't add evidences and this is just a draft of arguments, still I thank you for replying this! I think someones may think like you so I think I have to also explain this "quitside of space" etc stuffs and context of the statements to show that they aren't extreme.

Well, fair about the layered hax. But just saying, I may attempt this in future.

I still don't exactly buy the first argument. Being outside or unbound by conventional spacetimes doesn't immediately give Outer anymore from what I know. This seems like a reach argument, imo.

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Doesn't Kirby only have AP adv vs Base Sonic? Hax involved, this seems a bit one-sided.

And even then, Base Sonic can close gaps very easily due to his AD.

Feels like CE and Speed Amps carry.

Shadow kinda takes it in raw stats, hax aside. He has AD, multiple power and speed amps, can break out of TK with Chaos Boost (as seen in the Vs Silver fight in 06), has mindhax resistance, and a few other things I prolly didn't mention.

 

[AyOgUyS]

And even then, Base Sonic can close gaps very easily due to his AD.

Kirby scales to 15-16 universes. Sonic's AD seems to be really good at jumping up from a finite tier up to higher finite levels or to Tier 2, but I do not recall even a single instance where a Tier 2 Sonic is being overwhelmed by a stronger Tier 2 opponent and then grows to match said opponent mid-fight.

 

[SuperNunnas]

I still don't exactly buy the first argument. Being outside or unbound by conventional spacetimes doesn't immediately give Outer anymore from what I know. This seems like a reach argument, imo.

That was not the core reasoning for 1-A, man. The main ground is about their ontology and how is it defined within the verse; being more fundamental to existence. Second is that even if material beings can interreact with authors that views then as fictional (Having False R>F), they cannot even comprehend higher planes let alone interreacting naturally (massive supportive evidence for R>F)

If I remember correctly, the Pre-Genesis' space-time (,I was not intending to release some stuffs I will use in my cosmo blog but I think I have to so there you are, ) is not just conventional model since the worlds beyond world is said to be still within space and time, an realm of authors where they see Sonic and his gang as fictional. One of the authors literally said that they do create best of all possible worlds for Sonic's narrative and its setting (Evidence may seem a bit wanked or out of context but we accept Off Panels as an realm where all authors co-exist as characters, so I think this statement must be acceptable for scaling).

Unbound by this type of space-time and having ontologically superior to material world in the context I spoke above is a good context for R>F.

Also, can you give me your opinion about other stuffs in blog? Expectly about SOA and CF?

 

[SuperNunnas]

Kirby scales to 15-16 universes. Sonic's AD seems to be really good at jumping up from a finite tier up to higher finite levels or to Tier 2, but I do not recall even a single instance where a Tier 2 Sonic is being overwhelmed by a stronger Tier 2 opponent and then grows to match said opponent mid-fight.

Man, I really want to upgrade base classic Sonic with six emeralds to 8-D (with immeasurable speed of at least three higher temporal dimensions) because of the hella crazy stuff in Martin Adams STH novels so he can one shot Mario, Kirby etc. but sadly, permissions for the game verse CRTs are full.

Well, if anybody here is interested on this, I can publish an cosmology blog about Martin Adam's STH worldview!

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

Man, I really want to upgrade base classic Sonic with six emeralds to 8-D (with immeasurable speed of at least three higher temporal dimensions) because of the hella crazy stuff in Martin Adams STH novels so he can one shot Mario, Kirby etc. but sadly, permissions for the game verse CRTs are full.

Well, if anybody here is interested on this, I can publish a cosmology blog about Martin Adam's STH worldview!

I don’t think Marin Adam’s novels are canon. They’re probably a separate continuity

 

[SuperNunnas]

I don’t think Marin Adam’s novels are canon. They’re probably a separate continuity

Well, they said to be canon as it takes between Sonic 1 and 2 (IIRC). It is very old, like it is published in 1994's, and so it lacks retconnected things. However, I think it can be considered at least an secondary canon due it is being edited for that time's STH consinstency and said to be checked by SEGA for ensuring consinstency about character's personalities etc of that time's STH. And it doesn't match for today's consinstency should be understood as it being old as dirt.

 

[Executor_N0]

Well, they said to be canon as it takes between Sonic 1 and 2 (IIRC). It is very old, like it is published in 1994's, and so it lacks retconnected things. However, I think it can be considered at least an secondary canon due it is being edited for that time's STH consinstency and said to be checked by SEGA for ensuring consinstency about character's personalities etc of that time's STH. And it doesn't match for today's consinstency should be understood as it being old as dirt.

It was consistent with the early Western Sonic Canon which existed back then, which has since been retconned. There's no Doctor Kintobor, there's no treadmill, there's no ROCC.

If we ever made a page for the early Western Sonic Canon which used the novels, Stay Sonic, the early bible, etc, then these novels could be used.

 

[SuperNunnas]

It was consistent with the early Western Sonic Canon which existed back then, which has since been retconned. There's no Doctor Kintobor, there's no treadmill, there's no ROCC.

If we ever made a page for the early Western Sonic Canon which used the novels, Stay Sonic, the early bible, etc, then these novels could be used.

Well, I think STH Comic can be used too, no? Since it is also falls into same category as a whole.

 

[Executor_N0]

You mean the one used to promote the first Sonic, or you mean the one published by Fleetway? If so, no. They used the early Western Canon as the basis for the book (I remember interviews mentioning they used Stay Sonic as a reference), but they developed their own continuity.

The early Western Canon baseline were the games and materials set on it (As indicated by the Western manuals mentioning such elements) and from it other materials used it as the basis. Not just the STH comic, but the Adventures of Sonic The Hedgehog cartoon and other media.

It's no different from how Archie Comics used Sonic SatAM as the basis for the setting, but those are not the same continuity.

 

[SuperNunnas]

You mean the one used to promote the first Sonic, or you mean the one published by Fleetway? If so, no. They used the early Western Canon as the basis for the book (I remember interviews mentioning they used Stay Sonic as a reference), but they developed their own continuity.

The early Western Canon baseline were the games and materials set on it (As indicated by the Western manuals mentioning such elements) and from it other materials used it as the basis. Not just the STH comic, but the Adventures of Sonic The Hedgehog cartoon and other media.

It's no different from how Archie Comics used Sonic SatAM as the basis for the setting, but those are not the same continuity.

Alright, man. Thank you for the information.

Well, if I make a blog cosmology for the Martin Adams, would you check it?

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Kirby scales to 15-16 universes. Sonic's AD seems to be really good at jumping up from a finite tier up to higher finite levels or to Tier 2, but I do not recall even a single instance where a Tier 2 Sonic is being overwhelmed by a stronger Tier 2 opponent and then grows to match said opponent mid-fight.

Classic Sonic can jump infinities due to his comparability to Modern Sonic, who is 2-C at the time of Generations. This should apply to Modern Sonic's key since they are the same instance.

 

[Executor_N0]

Alright, man. Thank you for the information.

Well, if I make a blog cosmology for the Martin Adams, would you check it?

I could read, yes

 

[AyOgUyS]

Classic Sonic can jump infinities due to his comparability to Modern Sonic, who is 2-C at the time of Generations. This should apply to Modern Sonic's key since they are the same instance.

Just because a character achieved a certain level of AD one time doesn’t mean they can do it again whenever. If Modern Tier 2 Sonic can jump infinities why hasn’t he ever done that?

 

[TheStinkeer]

Couple fun things I noticed about the light-speed circuits. While Shadow reacting and controlling himself is the main thing talked about, Rouge can also do so. Plus there may be some kind of comparability of his speed on and off the circuits though that could be looking too deep into it. Then again I said the same thing about radio waves so shrug

 

[SuperNunnas]

I could read, yes

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:SuperNunnas/Some_old_stuff_Sonic_Martin_Adams

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Just because a character achieved a certain level of AD one time doesn’t mean they can do it again whenever. If Modern Tier 2 Sonic can jump infinities why hasn’t he ever done that?

It's a power he has showed and said to have many times. The AD can jump infinities, but it isn't INFINITE in that kind of way. But it definitely can seem to go up within a similar tier or dimensionality. Such as with Ultimate Emerl. With Sonic, who has many confirmed statements of AD, we can assume it happens all the time. It doesn't seem to make him STRONGER than the foe he's up against, just at a comparable level within reason.

 

[Fireld]

Then again I said the same thing about radio waves so shrug

Boohoo, those & other feats got pitched for calc requests & ignored before you joined.

 

[AyOgUyS]

It's a power he has showed and said to have many times. The AD can jump infinities, but it isn't INFINITE in that kind of way. But it definitely can seem to go up within a similar tier or dimensionality.

We cannot assume that a character will always be able to replicate an AD jump whenever, especially when the character's AD in question is not a one tap level 24/7 passive growth like Saitama. It's common in fiction for a character's AD to significantly slow down after they reach a certain level of power and that seems to be the case here as well. While Classic Sonic can jump up to Tier 2, it seems that jumping beyond that is a wall Sonic simply hasn't overcome yet.

Such as with Ultimate Emerl.

Yes, finite to higher finite. Give me an example of Sonic going from Tier 2 to stronger Tier 2.

 

[TheStinkeer]

Boohoo, those & other feats got pitched for calc requests & ignored before you joined.

I really don't know what I did that called for this response, but sorry for talking about Sonic powerscaling on the powerscaling website, I guess? I wasn't even asking for a calc. The reason I did the whole "i did the same for the radio waves" was just me acknowledging that my logic towards two near identical feats was a little silly

 

[AyOgUyS]

To be honest Metal Sonic provides some of the best feats for powerscaling in the verse.

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

We cannot assume that a character will always be able to replicate an AD jump whenever, especially when the character's AD in question is not a one tap level 24/7 passive growth like Saitama. It's common in fiction for a character's AD to significantly slow down after they reach a certain level of power and that seems to be the case here as well. While Classic Sonic can jump up to Tier 2, it seems that jumping beyond that is a wall Sonic simply hasn't overcome yet.

Yes, finite to higher finite. Give me an example of Sonic going from Tier 2 to stronger Tier 2.

Yeah, cuz Sonic has even stronger AD that Saitama LMAO there was a literal post about that matchup.

Also in that same realm, you cannot assume that it doesn't work like that but at least my side of the argument has support for how it can function as opposed to your side of the argument, which is much more theoretical.

There's no examples of that specific thing outside of Classic Sonic going from finite to literally a whole other infinity, but that doesn't mean it can't happen due to what we've literally seen in game as well as many statements giving credence to it. This "wall" is headcanon as opposed to what we've literally seen. I don't think this is an argument.

All we DO know is that Sonic's AD is reactive to whatever he's fighting.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Yeah, cuz Sonic has even stronger AD that Saitama LMAO there was a literal post about that matchup.

Yes, in some situations Sonic has stronger AD than Saitama.

Also in that same realm, you cannot assume that it doesn't work like that

Why? We cannot assume that a character’s AD rate will stay the same forever and always be able to grow at a certain rate in every situation. Especially not Sonic’s powerful…but weird AD. Clearly Sonic’s AD doesn’t always function at the same rate. Sometimes he can get trillions of times stronger by standing still. Other times he’s unable to clear a small gap in stats. It seems to me that Sonic’s AD is like this:
If he is at a finite level then he can jump up to any tier, capping at 2 or 12 universes since that’s the highest he’s shown.
If he’s Tier 2, his AD is significantly lower and not as effective at jumping dimensional tiers (it never works against Tier 1s to any notable degree…)

There's no examples of that specific thing outside of Classic Sonic going from finite to literally a whole other infinity

I do wonder why? Maybe because Tier 2 acts as a limit for the maximum tier Sonic can jump up to? It’d make sense considering Sonic’s AD never kicks in against Tier 1s (Time Eater, Titans), and while it kicked in against the Death Egg Robot, he had help and also likely a ton of passive growth beforehand so that seems more like a “power of friendship” showing to me than a feat of Sonic’s AD. Not that it matters because you can’t stack multipliers to go from 2 space-times to any higher levels within Tier 2.

All we DO know is that Sonic's AD is reactive to whatever he's fighting.

Yep and it seems to be really effective at jumping up to the level of his opponent…but hasn’t ever allowed him to go beyond 2 or 12 universes (depending on how the CRTs go). Saying Sonic would against Kirby jump up to 15 or 16 universes feels like an NLF.

But at this point I don’t think we’re gonna agree so I’m gonna drop this argument.

 

[Executor_N0]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:SuperNunnas/Some_old_stuff_Sonic_Martin_Adams

The statements seem fine
I don't know the current standards on how this often gets accepted, but I could see something like that (Unsure how it would be applied as I think none at the time scaled to the cosmology).

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Yes, in some situations Sonic has stronger AD than Saitama.

And in most threads, his AD is taken into account and is not treated this way where there's some imaginary line where it started and ended (within reason).

Why? We cannot assume that a character’s AD rate will stay the same forever and always be able to grow at a certain rate in every situation. Especially not Sonic’s powerful…but weird AD. Clearly Sonic’s AD doesn’t always function at the same rate. Sometimes he can get trillions of times stronger by standing still. Other times he’s unable to clear a small gap in stats. It seems to me that Sonic’s AD is like this:
If he is at a finite level then he can jump up to any tier, capping at 2 or 12 universes since that’s the highest he’s shown.
If he’s Tier 2, his AD is significantly lower and not as effective at jumping dimensional tiers (it never works against Tier 1s to any notable degree…)

Wrong. We literally see Sonic being one third of the power required to beat back the Death Egg Robot in Forces. The "power of friendship" is not really used in any debate that I know. Unless this "power of friendship" has been shown to give people the ability to ascend dimensionally, then I simply do not believe it. The only thing we've seen that's remotely close to that is in Sonic Heroes against Metal Overlord where Team Super Sonic use their Team Blast to bypass Overlord's invulnerability to normal attacks, but that isn't ascending dimensions.

 

[Tonygameman]

Sonic-related cause latter. (also, Klonoa needs to be freed from a outdated pile)

https://doridoridoridoridori.blogspot.com/2026/07/klonoa-vs-nights-namco-vs-sega_01000991297.html?m=1

 

[SuperNunnas]

The statements seem fine
I don't know the current standards on how this often gets accepted, but I could see something like that (Unsure how it would be applied as I think none at the time scaled to the cosmology).

Robotnik created the cyberspace and with using chaos emeralds, he can affect the big bang and re-cause it, directly scaling to the Universe.

And so Sonic. Also, since it is between Sonic 2, Sonic would posses super form as 2's events will eventually happen. So this Sonic's Super form would scale to that level too.

We can really use the cosmology, So I think it would be accepted.

Also, thank you for your time, man!

 

[MysticMania]

Sonic-related cause latter. (also, Klonoa needs to be freed from a outdated pile)

https://doridoridoridoridori.blogspot.com/2026/07/klonoa-vs-nights-namco-vs-sega_01000991297.html?m=1

This is fun to read. I like seeing this matchup discussed.

 

[MysticMania]

Though since they did use both Riders and Superstars Tennis, NiGHTS can get the Chaos Emeralds in those games.

 

[ShakeResounding]

It's time... Sonic Question Time!

Do you think Sonic would work better as a character who develops greatly over time, or as a static character who generally remains the same?

I've seen lots of varying opinions regarding this, so I figured I would ask here to you all. I personally don't mind Sonic being a static character, it's almost like a commentary on his stubbornness. What do you all think?

 

[TMaakkonen]

Static character even if answer is influenced by meta.

Sonic is 35 year old verse. It will go on for longer. Creating character development is super risky for sth with no stop in horizon. He works better as static character who influences others.

 

[ChaoticSapphire]

Do you think Sonic would work better as a character who develops greatly over time, or as a static character who generally remains the same?

Why not a compromise? At a superficial level, he might still look static, but the longer the time considered, the more evident the signs of a character growth become (with a chaotic pattern of ups and downs).

From a "child-like innocence" of the Classic Era, through the "ever-energetic and sharp teen" of the Adventure Era (during which he even became smth akin to a "foster father" for a certain gizoid), to a "battle-hardened young adult" of the Modern Era (especially in Frontiers).

 

[Theuser789]

It's time... Sonic Question Time!

Do you think Sonic would work better as a character who develops greatly over time, or as a static character who generally remains the same?

I've seen lots of varying opinions regarding this, so I figured I would ask here to you all. I personally don't mind Sonic being a static character, it's almost like a commentary on his stubbornness. What do you all think?

Static character.

 

[Tyranno223]

Static characters are great, but I am also fond of static characters that still go through changes to their life but not necessarily their character. Kinda like Goku.

 

[Remus1998]

It's time... Sonic Question Time!

Do you think Sonic would work better as a character who develops greatly over time, or as a static character who generally remains the same?

I've seen lots of varying opinions regarding this, so I figured I would ask here to you all. I personally don't mind Sonic being a static character, it's almost like a commentary on his stubbornness. What do you all think?

Static but with
I always saw Sonic as someone who changes and influences others rather than going through major character development himself, though I'd say Chaotic has the idea for Sonic that I most align with

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

It's time... Sonic Question Time!

Do you think Sonic would work better as a character who develops greatly over time, or as a static character who generally remains the same?

I've seen lots of varying opinions regarding this, so I figured I would ask here to you all. I personally don't mind Sonic being a static character, it's almost like a commentary on his stubbornness. What do you all think?

Static, with only ever small “developments”. I like it when he’s sorta the influencer to others


I’ve missed these

 

[SuperNunnas]

Hello everyone, can I have your opinions about this?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:SuperNunnas/Archie_Pre-Genesis_Cosmology_remake#First_State