Should We Scale Heat Resistance Feats to Durability?

[IDK3465]

Permission from @Antvasima here

A little while ago, in this PvZ downgrade thread, there was some discussion on how we treat feats of characters resisting extremely hot environments, and how that impacts durability. Although we have common calcs for the durability to tank both the core of the sun and lava, as well as several profiles using heat resistance and surviving heat-based attacks as justification for durability, there have also been a lot of staff who said that you can't assume heat resistance universally protects from other forms of attacks, like blunt force trauma.

I think it's pretty clear from the inconsistencies on the site that we need a concrete standard for how to treat these sorts of feats, and given that we somehow never had a thread on this in over 6 years, I feel it's pretty important to clarify our stance now so that we can adjust our profiles accordingly.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still basically stand on the posts I have been mentioning; such as this one and numerous throughout this thread. And I don't need to repeat myself regarding the 9-B scaling via durability to withstand nasty bodily fluids.

 

[IDK3465]

I still basically stand on the posts I have been mentioning; such as this one and numerous throughout this thread. And I don't need to repeat myself regarding the 9-B scaling via durability to withstand nasty bodily fluids.

Ok, so do you think we should just remove the common calcs entirely, or do you think we should still include them but separate the general durability characters have from their durability against heat-based attacks, or do you think there's potentially another way to calculate the durability in some of these cases (like surviving the sun's core)?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Ok, so do you think we should just remove the common calcs entirely, or do you think we should still include them but separate the general durability characters have from their durability against heat-based attacks, or do you think there's potentially another way to calculate the durability in some of these cases (like surviving the sun's core)?

I mean, heat feats are still AP for much of the same reason(s) environmental destruction feats are still AP. But we note that it's not fully considered durability to simply absorb or contact with X Joules of pure thermal energy.

 

[IDK3465]

I mean, heat feats are still AP for much of the same reason(s) environmental destruction feats are still AP. But we note that it's not fully considered durability to simply absorb or contact with X Joules of pure thermal energy.

I'm not talking about AP feats right now, of course, they're still valid, what I really want to talk about here is characters resisting heat-based things, cause like, isn't it still something that should be noted on the profile? I mean, if I can survive in a room that instantly vaporizes metal upon contact, then that has to affect my durability at least somewhat, even if it isn't literally equivalent to the heat energy applied to my skin.

You yourself even said that there's probably still something important for the durability of the character at the sun’s core, beyond just the heat, so shouldn't we try to calculate that and replace our current calc?

 

[KLOL506]

My thoughts basically remain the same as it did in those threads: Heat feats qualify for both AP and dura, whether they scale to striking strength will have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. And those threads were pretty much heading in that same direction, most of the staff who opposed it were outvoted, those in favor of keeping heat feats as scalable to both AP and dura were me, DontTalkDT, Bambu, Migue, DemonGodMitch and several other CGMs (Who have since retired).

 

[KLOL506]

I'm not talking about AP feats right now, of course, they're still valid, what I really want to talk about here is characters resisting heat-based things, cause like, isn't it still something that should be noted on the profile? I mean, if I can survive in a room that instantly vaporizes metal upon contact, then that has to affect my durability at least somewhat, even if it isn't literally equivalent to the heat energy applied to my skin.

You yourself even said that there's probably still something important for the sun's durability at its core, beyond just the heat, so shouldn't we try to calculate that and replace our current calc?

Also about this: The other factor to consider surviving in the sun's core is the extreme pressure. It would merely be added to the value required to tank the heat which we can already scale to durability via emissivity (Though tanking beams that can instantly vaporize people would just have you scale to the full value outright, as IRL you would require a lot more energy than what we have calculated to vaporize someone instantly). Good luck calculating the pressure and gravity value tho.

Also, the fact that our very description of AP is basically the energy value in joules would automatically qualify most heat feats as AP and (Most of the time usually) durability. Hell, consider that even our physical punches and kicks emit a massive amount of heat. Imagine what kind of heat a universe-busting punch would pull off.

 

[IDK3465]

My thoughts basically remain the same as it did in those threads: Heat feats qualify for both AP and dura, whether they scale to striking strength will have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. And those threads were pretty much heading in that same direction, most of the staff who opposed it were outvoted, those in favor of keeping heat feats as scalable to both AP and dura were me, DontTalkDT, Bambu, Migue, DemonGodMitch and several other CGMs (Who have since retired).

Also about this: The other factor to consider surviving in the sun's core is the extreme pressure. It would merely be added to the value required to tank the heat which we can already scale to durability via emissivity (Though tanking beams that can instantly vaporize people would just have you scale to the full value outright, as IRL you would require a lot more energy than what we have calculated to vaporize someone instantly). Good luck calculating the pressure and gravity value tho.

Also, the fact that our very description of AP is basically the energy value in joules would automatically qualify most heat feats as AP and (Most of the time usually) durability. Hell, consider that even our physical punches and kicks emit a massive amount of heat. Imagine what kind of heat a universe-busting punch would pull off.

So, tanking extreme heat is valid for durability? Wouldn’t it be good to note this somewhere since there’s been contention in the past?

 

[DontTalkDT]

I agree with DDM and KLOL.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

So, tanking extreme heat is valid for durability? Wouldn’t it be good to note this somewhere since there’s been contention in the past?

Actually slight wordage. Withstanding heat is still durability to an extent, but simple Joules of thermal energy alone doesn't indicate it being as impressive. When it comes to heat based attacks, specific temperature is what mainly matters most rather than just a calculated energy value. Then there are other smaller details, like Watts mattering more than Joules. And Joules of overpressure do tend to autogenerate joules of heat, but Joules of heat doesn't auto generate joules of overpressure on the same level without external surrounding factors.

 

[IDK3465]

Actually slight wordage. Withstanding heat is still durability to an extent, but simple Joules of thermal energy alone doesn't indicate it being as impressive. When it comes to heat based attacks, specific temperature is what mainly matters most rather than just a calculated energy value. Then there are other smaller details, like Watts mattering more than Joules. And Joules of overpressure do tend to autogenerate joules of heat, but Joules of heat doesn't auto generate joules of overpressure on the same level without external surrounding factors.

Ok, so in that case, how do you think we should handle profiles that use heat-resistance feats to justify durability? Should we remove those ratings, or is there something else you'd prefer?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Obviously, there is resistance to heat in the Powers and Abilities sectioning mentioning what specific temperatures are. And at the same time, the same character(s) could have durability listed as Wall level, up to Small Building level against extreme heat for situations of similar nature.

 

[DontTalkDT]

specific temperature is what mainly matters most rather than just a calculated energy value.

It should be noted that temperature and energy are proportional to each other when talking about equal volume/surface and material.

And Joules of overpressure do tend to autogenerate joules of heat, but Joules of heat doesn't auto generate joules of overpressure on the same level without external surrounding factors.

Surviving overpressure would, however, set a baseline on the strength of molecular bonds and hence still indicate a rough proportionality. (and fiction kinda tends to throw fire magic together with other elements)



Overall, it's definitely a rough practice, but like with cutting I'm of the opinion that generally feats are applicable barring things like attacks being spread out over large areas and specific considerations the fiction makes explicit.

 

[Antvasima]

I am fine with the staff consensus here.

 

[KLOL506]

@Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Migue79 @Dalesean027 @Psychomaster35 Tagging a few more CGMs to get a consensus just in case.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It should be noted that temperature and energy are proportional to each other when talking about equal volume/surface and material.

Surviving overpressure would, however, set a baseline on the strength of molecular bonds and hence still indicate a rough proportionality. (and fiction kinda tends to throw fire magic together with other elements)



Overall, it's definitely a rough practice, but like with cutting I'm of the opinion that generally feats are applicable barring things like attacks being spread out over large areas and specific considerations the fiction makes explicit.

I am aware of that, it is of course verses where UES scaling is prevalent that especially treat them interchangeably, or even LES or NPES listed in the UES page still have things like the manipulation of water, ice, and steam just being treated as a general water manipulation power. But I'm talking verses with the absence of all that like military shooters that tend to be more down to earth, have an absence of supernatural things, but use guns and tanks as their primary weapons and vehicles. There are cases where flamethrowers, plasma weapons, and heat based laser beams have significantly higher energy values than rocket launchers and hand grenades; but despite the energy difference, the heat heavy weapons do little to no damage to vehicles or mechanical targets (unlike how they're more effective against the purely biological Hivemind like aliens) where as the latter destroy them with ease.

 

[Psychomaster35]

To be fair, whether heat resistance should scale to someone's durability or not depends on if the verse follows some UES system that allows the heat to be converted to damage in a similar vein to physical attacks. Otherwise, it's assumed to be something that can negate durability as even a Universe level character can still die to regular fire.

 

[KLOL506]

To be fair, whether heat resistance should scale to someone's durability or not depends on if the verse follows some UES system that allows the heat to be converted to damage in a similar vein to physical attacks. Otherwise, it's assumed to be something that can negate durability as even a Universe level character can still die to regular fire.

Even without UES it's a case-by-case basis TBF (Because emissivity is a thing). Since basically any kind of high-level attack would automatically generate an enormous amount of heat no matter where you go (Even your punches and kicks emit a lot of heat), and once you go High 3-A, they'll automatically be assumed to have resistance to infinite heat by default as well barring weird outliers, PIS and anti-feats (Which don't count anyways).

UES is also normally only relevant for scaling the heat attacks to striking strength. Heat feats are still AP by definition since AP's whole schtick revolves around energy values and not how you dish it out. Normally for durability heat feats are just listed separately from blunt-force dura feats (Feats where people are pushed back or sent flying) and even then it's for verses where they are distinguished from each other (Though usually heat feats generally yield very poor results unless the temperatures are extremely high).

 

[KLOL506]

It should be noted that temperature and energy are proportional to each other when talking about equal volume/surface and material.

Surviving overpressure would, however, set a baseline on the strength of molecular bonds and hence still indicate a rough proportionality. (and fiction kinda tends to throw fire magic together with other elements)



Overall, it's definitely a rough practice, but like with cutting I'm of the opinion that generally feats are applicable barring things like attacks being spread out over large areas and specific considerations the fiction makes explicit.

In any case, I am in agreement with this.

 

[IDK3465]

Bump

 

[JPTheGamer]

I have a feeling this might impact our References for Common Feats page regarding calculations dealing with temperature output. Should we address this as well or save it for another thread?

 

[KLOL506]

Tagging CGMs again so we can finish this off.

@Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Dalesean027 @Migue79

 

[Dark-Carioca]

I don't remember what my original stance was (if I had any) but I agree with DDM and KLOL

 

[IDK3465]

Bump

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

I pretty much also agree with DDM and KLOL

 

[KLOL506]

I think we have more than enough agreements to apply this now.

@DontTalkDT Would you be so kind to formulate this thread's conclusions into a note? And would you also be so kind as to state in which one of our pages this would be most suited for?

 

[IDK3465]

Bump

 

[DontTalkDT]

I think we have more than enough agreements to apply this now.

@DontTalkDT Would you be so kind to formulate this thread's conclusions into a note? And would you also be so kind as to state in which one of our pages this would be most suited for?

The page is an interesting question. Is the temperature manipulation page too out of sight?
One could also consider making a temperature feats page, moving the temperature-related stuff from the Calculations page over there.

As for the note... well, not sure how to put it. Also depends on how much agreement there is on the underlying reasons.
Maybe just:

Enduring a kinetic energy based attack is generally considered to provide a not necessarily equal, but comparable, durability against heat-based attacks. The reverse also applies, but to a lesser extent. To scale heat-based attacks, or the endurance of them, to striking strength one would generally need a corresponding energy system.

 

[KLOL506]

The note is fine by me.

As for which page it belongs to, maybe the Fire Manip page? Since most heat feats involve fires, fireballs, vaporization feats and what-have-you.

 

[IDK3465]

Ok, so just to clarify: is there any context outside of an energy system where resisting heat is valid for general durability?

Like, if a character is able to tank something that vaporizes people, would they now have full on 9-A durability against everything, or would it just be 9-A against other heat-based stuff?

 

[KLOL506]

Ok, so just to clarify: is there any context outside of an energy system where resisting heat is valid for general durability?

Like, if a character is able to tank something that vaporizes people, would they now have full on 9-A durability against everything, or would it just be 9-A against other heat-based stuff?

Should be, at least, that's what DT's new note implies.

Besides, our current calculation for vaporizing people is already such a lowball, it doesn't even take timeframe into account which if we could, would jack up the value by magnitudes. Unfortunately, we do not have the lab equipment to pull that off. Crematoriums even with that heat can't fully disintegrate human remains into ash, it has to be crushed afterwards, unlike in fiction where most feats of vaporization or being turned to ash is instantaneous and near-perfect.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Ok, so just to clarify: is there any context outside of an energy system where resisting heat is valid for general durability?

Like, if a character is able to tank something that vaporizes people, would they now have full on 9-A durability against everything, or would it just be 9-A against other heat-based stuff?

Well, we are on the same page regarding energy system examples, like Ki Blasts both blunt force and vaporize. But to answer question. Surviving a flame thrower or plasma rifle blast that vaporizes people still isn't proof they could survive rocket launchers or fragmentation grenades of the same energy value.

Also, our vaporization values are sort of lowballed and highballed at the same time and depends on examples. The 300 Megajoules and 1800 degrees F combination are mere baselines, but a 1800 degree F heat wave would actually take a considerable amount of time to vaporize a target given the watts or Joules/s would be much lower. Likewise, there are plenty of cases where character vaporization is a mere fraction of a second, to which KLOL is correct those feats are heavily lowballed. Even if we assumed 1 second or 300 Megawatts, the specific temperature would be considerably much higher than the 1800F or 982.22C. Which would in turn give us a much higher equilibrium.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ok, so just to clarify: is there any context outside of an energy system where resisting heat is valid for general durability?

Like, if a character is able to tank something that vaporizes people, would they now have full on 9-A durability against everything, or would it just be 9-A against other heat-based stuff?

For close to real life cases (that is low-energy scenarios), one could make a differentiation.
Once things reach "energy of a small nuclear weapon concentrated into the volume of a fist"-level, it should pretty much always be in the same order of magnitude at least.

As for which page it belongs to, maybe the Fire Manip page? Since most heat feats involve fires, fireballs, vaporization feats and what-have-you.

That would have more traffic than temperature manipulation, but technically be less on-topic.

 

[KLOL506]

That would have more traffic than temperature manipulation, but technically be less on-topic.

Hmmmmm. I suppose we'll have to put it in one key page on the wiki which everyone sees. Maybe the Attack Potency and Durability pages on top of the Fire Manip page?

Also I wonder why we give Extreme Heat resistance feats as Resistance to Temperature Manipulation when you're not really able to resist your temperature value being controlled but moreso the side-effects of said temperature. Wouldn't that just normally be categorized as resistance to Fire?

 

[IDK3465]

Bump

 

[IDK3465]

Bump

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

@DontTalkDT Thoughts on this?

Hmmmmm. I suppose we'll have to put it in one key page on the wiki which everyone sees. Maybe the Attack Potency and Durability pages on top of the Fire Manip page?

Also I wonder why we give Extreme Heat resistance feats as Resistance to Temperature Manipulation when you're not really able to resist your temperature value being controlled but moreso the side-effects of said temperature. Wouldn't that just normally be categorized as resistance to Fire?

 

[IDK3465]

Bump

 

[IDK3465]

Bump

 

[Mr._Propeller_Hat]

While mostly that I think we shouldn't scale heat resistance feats to durability, it usually has to depend on a Universal Energy System as to where it allows thermal energy to be converted into physical energy