Tensura - Some more Speed stuff

[Astral_Trinity439]

Tensura is just a huge bundle of references its pure chaos

Buddhism, hinduism, quantum mechanics, tachyon stuff, a LOT of other physics related stuff, a hint of Christianity stuff, Magic, pure chivalry worlds (velgrynd side story) and marital arts, both Mecha/cyborn, interstellar and pure fantasy (WN side stories, soon in ln gaiden as well) fixed all in one verse

 

[Ultimuru]

Just a moment, I'll help them.
I will write a novel of my own making
Haha, there isn't one.

Can you please stop joking?
everyone

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

Tensura is the best

It's my second version, not me.

 

[Ultimuru]

Buddhism, hinduism, quantum mechanics, tachyon stuff, a LOT of other physics related stuff, a hint of Christianity stuff, Magic, pure chivalry worlds (velgrynd side story) and marital arts, both Mecha/cyborn, interstellar and pure fantasy (WN side stories, soon in ln gaiden as well) fixed all in one verse

Let's not forget in WN we have direct reference to Frieza and his death beam

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Let's not forget in WN we have direct reference to Frieza and his death beam

Vegeta was mentioned in Volume 1 or 2 btw (chapter 25/26 in WN)

 

[Explosion-Proximity]

Buddhism, hinduism, quantum mechanics, tachyon stuff, a LOT of other physics related stuff, a hint of Christianity stuff, Magic, pure chivalry worlds (velgrynd side story) and marital arts, both Mecha/cyborn, interstellar and pure fantasy (WN side stories, soon in ln gaiden as well) fixed all in one verse

Lets also not forget about lovecraftian and mythological references

 

[BattlerUsh]

Fuse will be doing anything in the verse

 

[SomebodyData]

It's stated here that Information Particles need to gather information from the surroundings, not from other Information Particles. This implies information and Information Particles can exist separately,

I already agreed that the transmission of information ignores time and space.


Summaries:

Spoiler: Tatsumi's

Speed of Information Particle vs Speed of Information Transfer

• As information particles and information itself aren't the same thing, the speed at which the the former transmits the latter isn't a justification for it's supposed speed.
  
• While information is transferred with zero time lag, there is a delay in the physical movement of information particles out of the body to observe data. This contradicts the notion of speed being constant and proves that the speed of the two do not correlate. Because Ciel is a part of Rimuru, their communication is instantaneous however, to obtain information from outside, the particle has to move out and grasp the information of the surroundings resulting in a delay
  

Beyond Dimensional Existence + Inapplicable Speed Formula

• The reason why information can be transferred regardless of time period, with zero time delay is because information particles aren't dependent on/are unbound by time and space. The transmitted information requires no third party besides the particle it's transmitting to, requires no medium to facilitate the transfer of information hence, no distance covered hence, instantaneous transfer. Information particles aren't bound by time hence, the information can be transferred to any point in time as long as the target of transfer is within the observable space of the sender.
• One of, if not the most credible source in the story clearly states that the movement speed of information particles may appear to exceed the speed of light but are in fact not faster than light. This more than anything disproves this being immeasurable, a detail conveniently left out in the cropped scans.
  

Spoiler: Eldemade

Well, here's my summary for the thread. I'm busy with other things right now, so I might not comment any further. If this still gets accepted as a speed rating, I'll make a staff thread in the future to tackle the issue as some of arguments and scans were still left out and generally speed isn't treated as how supporters making it sound. Just giving everyone a heads-up, as I'm not free enough to continue this discussion any further in this thread.

Spoiler: Compilation

• Let me start with what I repeated. The OP scans never talk about any speed. Staff should check that out. Since this is a summary, I'm not going to go deep into it.
  • The first scan talks about the transmission of information even in a stopped world. Hence, that thing is definitely not related to speed. The second scan talks about the synchronization of information, again, which has nothing to do with speed. The instantaneous statement is talking about all information being synchronized in real time and connected to each other using parallel bodies. That's all. The third scan is basically just resistance to time stop, again, nothing to do with speed. The fourth scan talks about how Information Particles can be used to perceive the expansion of spacetime. Nothing there talks about any speed. It's talking about how you can interfere with space and time. That's all. None of the scans talk about any speed. They are just showing the resistance and abilities that Information Particles give them.

There is also a problem with the OP's scan translation. The particular word に can mean either "at" or "to" depending on the context. This was also confirmed by the same guy who translated the scan.
So, like I mentioned, the context is talking about the movement of information at any time, in other words, at any moment, even where time is stopped, it can move. This has nothing to do with speed, and saying it is done by speed is incorrect.

• The second problem is that even the supporters admit, and the series constantly states, that Information Particles have a constant speed. So, saying they can go to any point in time completely removes that constant speed if you take the statement literally instead of looking at the context.

• I have highlighted the later lines with additional content. You can check them out. It is clearly just talking about how Information Particles can move in a time-stopped world, nothing to do with any speed that lets them move to any point in time.

• The Volume 23 statement completely disagrees with the immeasurable speed interpretation since Rimuru was surprised by an FTL movement, even questioning whether such a phenomenon was possible.
  • He was basically wondering how something that seemed impossible had become possible. If, like the supporters and the OP claim, Information Particles indeed had immeasurable speed, and characters who are DLF could move to any point in time through speed and already qualified for immeasurable speed, then FTL speed would not have been a surprise to him.
  • He also mentioned that Information Particles have a constant speed, which further indicates that this supposed constant speed is either SOL or below, since FTL speed was something he had never seen before and considered surprising.
• Now, talking about the counter that supporters tried to bring up: "SOL is not constant."
  • I don't know what they were trying to say because, again, I posted the scan where the narrative already gave the exact value for SOL. Yes, its speed varies depending on the medium it travels through, but that doesn't mean anything here.
  • Saying it is "not constant" does not mean it travels at infinite or immeasurable speed without the narrative explicitly pointing that out. If moving at SOL or FTL allowed characters to go to different time periods, that still would not qualify as immeasurable speed in the first place. You can take Fire Force as an example. But I hope the OP was not trying to argue that.
  • Anyway, Rimuru clearly clarifies that he was measuring the speed using real-life standards, specifically the laws of physics. Yes, he clearly mentioned that. Since those laws were removed, he questioned whether it was now possible to move at FTL speed. That is exactly how he was questioning that speed. He was not using any other measurement system that does not exist.

TD;LR

• The OP scans never talked about speed as in how our wiki works.
• The series consistently states that Information Particles have a constant speed & it was stated the constant speed of Information Particles is below FTL.
• The argument that "SOL is not constant" does not mean it is immeasurable or infinite speed without further context. Besides, the series clearly gives us a value for SOL, and it is nowhere near what they are claiming. The speed of light varies depending on the medium it travels through, but that does not make it infinite or immeasurable.
• Rimuru measured the speed of Information Particles using real-life physics. He explicitly refers to the laws of physics when discussing their speed. So, the argument that "SOL is not constant, therefore the movement of Information Particles should be immeasurable speed" should not exist in the first place, because their speed is being measured based on the value the series itself provides.

Spoiler: Astral

Summary
Premise: Premise includes assuming the idea of "Information Particles have Speed (not Teleportation) an At least infinite speed" as mutually agreed upon, as part 1 of the thread deals with exactly these assumptions. Also small clarification, Information Particles = Data Particles (alt translations by Slimereader and Yenpress respectively). I'll use indent points to separate where the argument was brought up and addressed from the idea behind the argument and counter itself. Now, moving on to the actual summary of why it should be immeasurable speed:

1. The most clear-cut statement is from Ciel herself saying "It has been determined that Information Particles are unaffected by time or space and are able to transmit information to any point in time". Other similar repeated statements include:
   • Transcending both Time and Space
   • Are not bound by Time
   • Instantaneously synchronized across Time and Space
2. Information Particle's nature of BDE1 does not hinder their rating of Immeasurable Speed; Because the prior is about not tracing a path for your movement in space-time, while the latter is simply movement in Time.
   • An argument was brought up against this starting from here and later in circular reasoning throughout the thread, and has been addressed in details here and explained by a staff member here.
3. Information Particles are what have the "Speed", not Information itself. Information is transmitted through their container (Information Particle) by moving the Information Particles themselves.
   • An argument was brought up against this here, here and elaborated upon here, and has been addressed here, here and here, after which the opposition did not respond further.
4. It was brought up that Information Particles are not Immeasurable because "they do not surpass the speed of Light" here, so they are "below or at best equal to the speed of light". This was addressed using the idea that the Speed of Light isn't constant (and not in the "vacuum/non-vacuum" sense).
   
   • It was brought up here, then elaborated upon here and here. It was addressed here. For more details;
5. It was brought up that the nature of Information Particles is not due to their speed. This is mostly semantics
   • It was brought up here and here but was addressed here and here.
6. It was brought up that the Speed of Infons isn't constant, reason being because apparently the Info transfer with Chloe and Rimuru had a time lag while between him and Ciel there was no lag. It was addressed using the idea that the lag wasn't caused by data particles themselves but due to Rimuru at the time not having enough processing speed to not cause lag (as their speed is repeatedly stated to be constant even in the last volume).
   • It was brought up here and here. It was addressed here and here.
7. It was initially thought by the opposition that "can transmit info to any point in time" was a mistranslation from Slimereader. This was countered by the fact that said translation was from our TL helper @RaikiKurohane99 and they also came to clarify it themselves. It was then later argued by opposition that the context suggests an alternative translation against our Translation Staff's TL but was also accordingly addressed here. There's also the fact that the opposition's interpretation was simply incorrect and based on insufficient knowledge in Japanese.
   • The argument was brought up here and here, and was addressed here, here and here.
8. It was brought up that "transmit to any point in time" is about "Leaping" and not casual "movement", in the sense that it is time travel and not speed. But this was countered by the fact that Information Particles always have a constant speed, so any and all movement in time = movement in space. This is mostly about semantics though.
   • This was brought up here and here and was addressed here, here and here.
9. It was brought up that the "Zero-Time Delay" (Movement with no time difference) was false because it just meant being able to move in time stop. That is however false, because as seen in the scan in this and this post, it is repeatedly being called instantaneous in context to its own speed of movement.
   • This was brought up here but was unfortunately skipped by by me due to the walls of text that followed before and after.
10. Another point that was made here (not countered thus far), that a verse can still describe some finite spatial movement as immeasurable speed because the movement across time is not the same as movement in space, thus something that is spatially hypersonic can still travel through time due to its nature and thus be classified as Immeasurable speed, although these situations are judged case by case. This however is the kind of last-resort counter assuming some of the opposition's argument to be true, when they are completely false to begin with.

Spoiler: Ciel

Summary
There were some arguments in the thread that Information Particles do not have a "Speed" to begin with. Despite the fact that these issues were already addressed in the first thread, the supporters decided to make a short summary on why they have Speed, and why it's Infinite.

Some trivia: Information Particles and Data Particles are alternative translations. DLF (Digital Lifeforms) are beings that are composed entirely of Data Particles, as much as how we are made of tissues, molecules, atoms, and so on, except they are made entirely of these particles on all levels rather than something like "made of molecules, which are made of atoms, which are...".

1. Information Particles are said to have a "Movement Speed", multiple times, and this Speed is said to be constant. Additionally, while all DLFs can move in Suspended World normally, using "Teleportation" in Suspended World is still considered something special/strange/shock-worthy.
   • The idea here is that the verse itself classifies it as Speed rather than Teleportation, whereas Teleportation itself is distinguished.
2. Information Particles can reflect off/bounce off/strike obstacles during their travel, and using this, they gather information from the surroundings, insofar as that they are not "skipping distance". And the thing moving is the particle itself, not the Information. Information is simply exchanged when two data particles hit each other.
   • The idea is that non DLFs cannot perceive the Suspended World normally. So what they do is that they send out information particles in all directions, and these particles hit and bounce/reflect off things back to the sender. During this process, they obtain surrounding information, and thus allow the person to perceive the suspended world and other digital lifeforms (Although moving themselves still requires transforming oneself into a DLF first). Here is a fan-made diagram to show this mechanic.
3. The speed of information particles is such that they can travel to any point in perceivable space in 0 time/without any time difference. The current thread adds that they can also travel to any point in Time as well. Additionally, if they are standing still, when they move, they reach this speed instantly.
   • The additional idea is that because their Speed is constant, their combat, reaction, travel, flight and perception speed would always be equal.

I'm staying neutral atm, slightly leaning towards disagreeing with Immeasurable speed but not enough to count it as a vote. It'll depend on the below:

@Tatsumi504 @EldemadeDityjon

If there are any scans of information being transmitted without the direct interaction of Information Particles against one another, you should post them; otherwise, I'm going to agree with Immeasurable Speed.

Agreed- if such a scan exists I'll vote against Immeasurable Speed.

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

Agreed- if such a scan exists I'll vote against Immeasurable Speed.

If not, then do you agree with the topic?

 

[ReasonedZebra834]

Concordo - se tal escaneamento existir, votarei contra a Velocidade Incomensurável.

I didn't understand

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@Tatsumi504 @EldemadeDityjon

If there are any scans of information being transmitted without the direct interaction of Information Particles against one another, you should post them; otherwise, I'm going to agree with Immeasurable Speed.

Agreed- if such a scan exists I'll vote against Immeasurable Speed.

They can share information through the Soul Corridor if connected, which doesn't require direct contact with information particles alone. Also, having a connection doesn't mean Rimuru can instantly move to any location he's connected to via Information Particles instantly. He can only move within his visible range. It's not as though he can move to the past or future when he can't even perceive them. Idk how using information particles to share information means they gets immeasurable speed according to you. Can you elaborate on this? When they are capped at SOL.

Slime reader TL

Spoiler

During Time Stop, ‘Spatial Transportation’ was basically impossible because it required flying information particles to understand the surrounding information. Although it was possible to move them within a visible range, it was meaningless because it would be faster to move normally. This was because, regardless of the distance, the coordinates of the destination had to be read by interfering with the information particles. If the information particles had to be moved back and forth, it would be faster for me to just move. In this case, even if I went to the rescue right now, Dagruel would have finished his complete control of the area before I could reach Lubelius.

The result would be the same whether I went there or asked Veldora to do so. And since I was currently dealing with Milim, Veldora was the only one I could ask…

‹Veldora, even if you can’t reach them in time, will you go to their rescue right now?›

‹I’ve been waiting for you to say that!›

In truth, I had hoped that Veldora would be in charge of the final defense of the labyrinth. However, now was not the time to say such things. Right now we had to find a means of transportation, I had to keep my spirits up.

‹Rimuru-sama, Ultima and her thoughts are connected. We can send the coordinates to Veldora-sama.›

Oh?!

It was Diablo who interrupted the conversation at that point.

«’Spatial Transportation’ is possible even in a Suspended World as long as the coordinate information is known even at a long distance. Since Ultima is on site, I shared her senses and perceptions to acquire information.»

I-is that so? So, in other words, it’s possible because they’re connected to me through the Soul Corridor?

«That’s correct.»

OTL

Spoiler

There were two problems here. One, if I didn’t help Shion, Luminus, and the rest, they might all be wiped out. Two—the trickier one—how was I gonna get there? Spatial Transport involved sending data particles over to perceive the other side, so you couldn’t use it while time was suspended. You could probably transport yourself to another point within visible range, but it’d be faster to just move like normal. No matter how far (or close) your destination was, you needed to use data particles to read the situation in your destination first, and if that was the case, I might as well just walk instead.

Given this situation, Daggrull would probably wipe out his opponents before I could reach Lubelius to rescue them. Whether I went there or asked Veldora to help out, the results would be the same. And if I was dealing with Milim, Veldora was about all I could turn to…

(Veldora, whether you make it in time or not, can you go and try to bail them out right now?)

(That’s what I was waiting to hear!)

I really wanted Veldora to remain our final line of defense in the labyrinth, but I couldn’t be picky. We just had to work out a transport. Could he maybe tough it out for me?

(Sir Rimuru, I have connected my thoughts to Ultima. I will send her coordinates over to Sir Veldora immediately.)

Whoa! Diablo, of all people, had just interrupted us.

No matter the distance, Spatial Transport is possible even in suspended space if you have the right coordinate data. Since Ultima is in the area, I shared in her senses and had her acquire the needed data.

Um, okay? So, like, that was possible because of our soul corridor connections?

Yes, exactly.

Also why you are not tackling SOL cap rather just going with vague statement "it feels like Zero time lag?"

Then why, one might ask, do 'information particles' appear to exceed the speed of light? Well, it's not that their speed is faster. It feels like 'information particles,' which should exist in separate coordinates, are transferring "information" to one another with zero time delay. Regardless of the distance between them, as long as the 'information particles' exist within a perceptible space, the transfer happens instantaneously. In other words, 'information particles' transcend spacetime.

 

[ReasonedZebra834]

They can share information through the Soul Corridor if connected, which doesn't require direct contact with information particles alone. Also, having a connection doesn't mean Rimuru can instantly move to any location he's connected to via Information Particles. He can only move within his visible range. It's not as though he can move to the past or future when he can't even perceive them. Idk how using information particles to share information means they gets immeasurable speed according to you. Can you elaborate on this? When they are capped at SOL.

Slime reader TL

Spoiler

During Time Stop, ‘Spatial Transportation’ was basically impossible because it required flying information particles to understand the surrounding information. Although it was possible to move them within a visible range, it was meaningless because it would be faster to move normally. This was because, regardless of the distance, the coordinates of the destination had to be read by interfering with the information particles. If the information particles had to be moved back and forth, it would be faster for me to just move. In this case, even if I went to the rescue right now, Dagruel would have finished his complete control of the area before I could reach Lubelius.

The result would be the same whether I went there or asked Veldora to do so. And since I was currently dealing with Milim, Veldora was the only one I could ask…

‹Veldora, even if you can’t reach them in time, will you go to their rescue right now?›

‹I’ve been waiting for you to say that!›

In truth, I had hoped that Veldora would be in charge of the final defense of the labyrinth. However, now was not the time to say such things. Right now we had to find a means of transportation, I had to keep my spirits up.

‹Rimuru-sama, Ultima and her thoughts are connected. We can send the coordinates to Veldora-sama.›

Oh?!

It was Diablo who interrupted the conversation at that point.

«’Spatial Transportation’ is possible even in a Suspended World as long as the coordinate information is known even at a long distance. Since Ultima is on site, I shared her senses and perceptions to acquire information.»

I-is that so? So, in other words, it’s possible because they’re connected to me through the Soul Corridor?

«That’s correct.»

OTL

Spoiler

There were two problems here. One, if I didn’t help Shion, Luminus, and the rest, they might all be wiped out. Two—the trickier one—how was I gonna get there? Spatial Transport involved sending data particles over to perceive the other side, so you couldn’t use it while time was suspended. You could probably transport yourself to another point within visible range, but it’d be faster to just move like normal. No matter how far (or close) your destination was, you needed to use data particles to read the situation in your destination first, and if that was the case, I might as well just walk instead.

Nessa situação, Daggrull provavelmente aniquilaria seus oponentes antes que eu pudesse chegar a Lubelius para resgatá-los. Quer eu fosse até lá ou pedisse ajuda a Veldora, o resultado seria o mesmo. E se eu estivesse lidando com Milim, Veldora era praticamente a única pessoa a quem eu poderia recorrer…

(Veldora, independentemente de você chegar a tempo ou não, pode ir tentar resgatá-los agora mesmo?)

(Era isso que eu estava esperando ouvir!)

Eu realmente queria que Veldora continuasse sendo nossa última linha de defesa no labirinto, mas não podia ser exigente. Precisávamos dar um jeito no transporte. Será que ele aguentaria firme por mim?

(Senhor Rimuru, conectei meus pensamentos a Ultima. Enviarei suas coordenadas ao Senhor Veldora imediatamente.)

Opa! Diablo, de todas as pessoas, acabou de nos interromper.

Independentemente da distância, o Transporte Espacial é possível mesmo no espaço suspenso, desde que se tenha os dados de coordenadas corretos. Como Ultima estava na área, compartilhei seus sentidos com ela e pedi que obtivesse os dados necessários.

Hum, ok? Então, tipo, isso foi possível por causa das nossas conexões no corredor da alma ?

Sim, exatamente.

Além disso, por que você não está abordando o limite de SOL em vez de simplesmente afirmar vagamente "parece que não há atraso de tempo?"

What do you think, ADM?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

What do you think, ADM?

??

 

[Bahaha]

Isnt there the scan that even if information instantaneously synchronizes information through time, because void erased the information in the information particle, the information being sent is void/information is erased before transfer?

That would be good evidence that information particles transmit information at immeasurable speed because the particle is transferring information through time even tho the information is voided. Or maybe void immeasurable speed lol

 

[ReasonedZebra834]

??

No, you

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

They can share information through the Soul Corridor if connected, which doesn't require direct contact with information particles alone. Also, having a connection doesn't mean Rimuru can instantly move to any location he's connected to via Information Particles. He can only move within his visible range. It's not as though he can move to the past or future when he can't even perceive them. Idk how using information particles to share information means they gets immeasurable speed according to you. Can you elaborate on this? When they are capped at SOL.

If Information Particles have to 'touch' one another to transfer information, then that means Information Particles would need to be able to move through time to 'touch' Information Particles in another time.

Now, considering time travel seems to be something they unlock later, I wouldn't say they would gain the ability to 'attack you tomorrow' or anything along those lines if they've never done it before, but attacks relying on Information Particles would still be able to defy linear time.

Put simply, they would have Immeasurable Speed but only in the use cases that are shown in the novel.

Slime reader TL

Spoiler

During Time Stop, ‘Spatial Transportation’ was basically impossible because it required flying information particles to understand the surrounding information. Although it was possible to move them within a visible range, it was meaningless because it would be faster to move normally. This was because, regardless of the distance, the coordinates of the destination had to be read by interfering with the information particles. If the information particles had to be moved back and forth, it would be faster for me to just move. In this case, even if I went to the rescue right now, Dagruel would have finished his complete control of the area before I could reach Lubelius.

The result would be the same whether I went there or asked Veldora to do so. And since I was currently dealing with Milim, Veldora was the only one I could ask…

‹Veldora, even if you can’t reach them in time, will you go to their rescue right now?›

‹I’ve been waiting for you to say that!›

In truth, I had hoped that Veldora would be in charge of the final defense of the labyrinth. However, now was not the time to say such things. Right now we had to find a means of transportation, I had to keep my spirits up.

‹Rimuru-sama, Ultima and her thoughts are connected. We can send the coordinates to Veldora-sama.›

Oh?!

It was Diablo who interrupted the conversation at that point.

«’Spatial Transportation’ is possible even in a Suspended World as long as the coordinate information is known even at a long distance. Since Ultima is on site, I shared her senses and perceptions to acquire information.»

I-is that so? So, in other words, it’s possible because they’re connected to me through the Soul Corridor?

«That’s correct.»

OTL

Spoiler

There were two problems here. One, if I didn’t help Shion, Luminus, and the rest, they might all be wiped out. Two—the trickier one—how was I gonna get there? Spatial Transport involved sending data particles over to perceive the other side, so you couldn’t use it while time was suspended. You could probably transport yourself to another point within visible range, but it’d be faster to just move like normal. No matter how far (or close) your destination was, you needed to use data particles to read the situation in your destination first, and if that was the case, I might as well just walk instead.

Given this situation, Daggrull would probably wipe out his opponents before I could reach Lubelius to rescue them. Whether I went there or asked Veldora to help out, the results would be the same. And if I was dealing with Milim, Veldora was about all I could turn to…

(Veldora, whether you make it in time or not, can you go and try to bail them out right now?)

(That’s what I was waiting to hear!)

I really wanted Veldora to remain our final line of defense in the labyrinth, but I couldn’t be picky. We just had to work out a transport. Could he maybe tough it out for me?

(Sir Rimuru, I have connected my thoughts to Ultima. I will send her coordinates over to Sir Veldora immediately.)

Whoa! Diablo, of all people, had just interrupted us.

No matter the distance, Spatial Transport is possible even in suspended space if you have the right coordinate data. Since Ultima is in the area, I shared in her senses and had her acquire the needed data.

Um, okay? So, like, that was possible because of our soul corridor connections?

Yes, exactly.

Also why you are not tackling SOL cap rather just going with vague statement "it feels like Zero time lag?"

I would just count it as two different things: Information Particles moving at sub-light speeds normally, but capable of moving through time when being used for that specific purpose.

But again, it depends on whether Information Particles need to touch in order to transmit information, and even then I would limit their feats to what they've been shown to do and be used for.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

If Information Particles have to 'touch' one another to transfer information, then that means Information Particles would need to be able to move through time to 'touch' Information Particles in another time.

They are not doing that though. Like I posted the scan Soul corridor above. There are other methods.

Now, considering time travel seems to be something they unlock later, I wouldn't say they would gain the ability to 'attack you tomorrow' or anything along those lines if they've never done it before, but attacks relying on Information Particles would still be able to defy linear time.

Put simply, they would have Immeasurable Speed but only in the use cases that are shown in the novel.

They are not doing that through speed though

Then why, one might ask, do 'information particles' appear to exceed the speed of light? Well, it's not that their speed is faster.

Again, if you think they can defy linear time with only the speed of light or FTL movement, then why would this need to be indexed as Immeasurable Speed when the narrative clearly caps their speed? We already have Fire Force as an example where time travel is possible while the characters are still only rated as FTL. Doesn't our Speed page also clarify this distinction?

Also, isn't what you're saying literally contradicting the very statement? The only scan they have says that it can be transferred to any point in time, yet you're also claiming that it can't attack someone's past or future. Those two claims don't seem to be consistent with each other.

I would just count it as two different things: Information Particles moving at sub-light speeds normally, but capable of moving through time when being used for that specific purpose.

This contradicts what is stated about Information Particles: they have a constant speed. They cannot be slower or faster though.

But again, it depends on whether Information Particles need to touch in order to transmit information, and even then I would limit their feats to what they've been shown to do and be used for.

The narrative explicitly caps their speed.

Information Particles are also stated to have a constant speed.

On the wiki, we don't treat FTL movement that ignores conventional time as automatically qualifying for Immeasurable Speed. Otherwise, many series with FTL time travel would qualify, which they don't.

So I'm failing to understand what argument you're actually agreeing with when you say that interacting with Information Particles might qualify under limited range. If their speed is narratively capped, constant, and not treated as Immeasurable by the wiki's standards, then what is the basis for that conclusion?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Well, they’re clearly not always moving at a constant speed, because apparently everything is made of Information Particles, and not everything is constantly moving. So the statement would mean that when they are moving, they move at a constant speed rather than accelerating or decelerating.

Secondly, Immeasurable Speed is something our wiki categorizes as speed, but in fictional universes, traveling through time may not necessarily be treated as a matter of speed. There’s no one-size-fits-all rule.

That being said, Immeasurable Speed is more of a modifier of speed than anything else. For example, if I’m capable of “walking” back in time, that could qualify as Immeasurable Travel Speed, but it doesn’t mean the individual movements involved in that “walk” are happening any faster than normal. Do you understand what I’m saying?

Even if you can physically move through time, that movement does not necessarily need to be fast, because speed and movement through time can be separate concepts in some fictional universes. In some settings, even if you can perform actions that violate linear time, essentially time traveling, that doesn’t mean you can cross to the other side of the universe.

So it is possible for something to be “moving” at sub-light speeds while also traveling through time. Because it’s fiction, not every verse has to treat movement through time as the same category of speed as moving at light speed.

But none of this is really the main point. Right now, the only question I have is whether Information Particles need to touch in order to transmit information. If they do, then Information Particles from the future being able to touch Information Particles in the past would imply some form of non-linear interaction through movement.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

They can share information through the Soul Corridor if connected, which doesn't require direct contact with information particles alone. Also, having a connection doesn't mean Rimuru can instantly move to any location he's connected to via Information Particles instantly. He can only move within his visible range. It's not as though he can move to the past or future when he can't even perceive them. Idk how using information particles to share information means they gets immeasurable speed according to you. Can you elaborate on this? When they are capped at SOL.

Slime reader TL

Spoiler

During Time Stop, ‘Spatial Transportation’ was basically impossible because it required flying information particles to understand the surrounding information. Although it was possible to move them within a visible range, it was meaningless because it would be faster to move normally. This was because, regardless of the distance, the coordinates of the destination had to be read by interfering with the information particles. If the information particles had to be moved back and forth, it would be faster for me to just move. In this case, even if I went to the rescue right now, Dagruel would have finished his complete control of the area before I could reach Lubelius.

The result would be the same whether I went there or asked Veldora to do so. And since I was currently dealing with Milim, Veldora was the only one I could ask…

‹Veldora, even if you can’t reach them in time, will you go to their rescue right now?›

‹I’ve been waiting for you to say that!›

In truth, I had hoped that Veldora would be in charge of the final defense of the labyrinth. However, now was not the time to say such things. Right now we had to find a means of transportation, I had to keep my spirits up.

‹Rimuru-sama, Ultima and her thoughts are connected. We can send the coordinates to Veldora-sama.›

Oh?!

It was Diablo who interrupted the conversation at that point.

«’Spatial Transportation’ is possible even in a Suspended World as long as the coordinate information is known even at a long distance. Since Ultima is on site, I shared her senses and perceptions to acquire information.»

I-is that so? So, in other words, it’s possible because they’re connected to me through the Soul Corridor?

«That’s correct.»

OTL

Spoiler

There were two problems here. One, if I didn’t help Shion, Luminus, and the rest, they might all be wiped out. Two—the trickier one—how was I gonna get there? Spatial Transport involved sending data particles over to perceive the other side, so you couldn’t use it while time was suspended. You could probably transport yourself to another point within visible range, but it’d be faster to just move like normal. No matter how far (or close) your destination was, you needed to use data particles to read the situation in your destination first, and if that was the case, I might as well just walk instead.

Given this situation, Daggrull would probably wipe out his opponents before I could reach Lubelius to rescue them. Whether I went there or asked Veldora to help out, the results would be the same. And if I was dealing with Milim, Veldora was about all I could turn to…

(Veldora, whether you make it in time or not, can you go and try to bail them out right now?)

(That’s what I was waiting to hear!)

I really wanted Veldora to remain our final line of defense in the labyrinth, but I couldn’t be picky. We just had to work out a transport. Could he maybe tough it out for me?

(Sir Rimuru, I have connected my thoughts to Ultima. I will send her coordinates over to Sir Veldora immediately.)

Whoa! Diablo, of all people, had just interrupted us.

No matter the distance, Spatial Transport is possible even in suspended space if you have the right coordinate data. Since Ultima is in the area, I shared in her senses and had her acquire the needed data.

Um, okay? So, like, that was possible because of our soul corridor connections?

Yes, exactly.

Also why you are not tackling SOL cap rather just going with vague statement "it feels like Zero time lag?"

Even soul Corridors send out info thorough data particles. Lol. Though I suppose knowing that requires checking the raws to some extent (not that I can't conclude the same using the OTL either but eh, I prefer using raws)

Like let's take Twilight as example. He has a copy of himself inside Velzard that's the actual Manas Twilight, while he created "Separate Bodies" (this is a specific name for bodies made with Parallel Existence) to operate outside. The thing to note is that Separate Bodies have soul corridors between one another (or between it and the original body). And that is EXTREMELY EVIDENT

And we have the exact case of Twilight trying to send information to his main body and receive back stuff. But Testa makes an obstacle. She makes a void prison around the separate body, making it so that it doesn't transfer info. Because Void prison specifically devours information on info particles, so orders carried by that information are not transmitted to the main body and thus "my heart core is not responding" from twilight.

Soooo even soul Corridors transfer stuff via data particles, lol.
In fact, it is even clearly separately said that Parallel Existence (and all its separate bodies) function the way they do precisely because of manipulation of information particles. And given I showed you how the link between Parallel Existences is done via a Soul Corridor, it's clearly clear that even the info transmitted via soul corridor needs the particles to be moved to carry and transfer said info. The fact that Void prion that stops data particles results in soul corridors not being able to exchange information from inside to outside is all so clear.

Well, they’re clearly not always moving at a constant speed, because apparently everything is made of Information Particles, and not everything is constantly moving. So the statement would mean that when they are moving, they move at a constant speed rather than accelerating or decelerating.

Yeah. Information Particles can be at rest, but if they do move, their speed is always constant (shown by how Jahil can reach his speed from rest in an instant inside the Suspended World).

But again, it depends on whether Information Particles need to touch in order to transmit information, and even then I would limit their feats to what they've been shown to do and be used for.

As for how they battle, I'll let this scene from V11 explain itself. Everything is there. Rimuru at that moment cannot perceive time stop and dlf movement, so that's what it looks like to him:

Image Chest

Post with 1 views.

imgchest.com

Note: I included translation of RAWs from Raiki for the parts that were important. With that said, I'm off to sleep!

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

Bump

 

[Ultimuru]

Bump

Too early

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

Too early

I have a high speed.

 

[K'rimuru]

Bump

 

[AlexSamDen]

Bump

12 hours haven't passed

Too early once more

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

12 hours haven't passed

Too early once more

Everyone is gaining immeasurable speed.

 

[K'rimuru]

12 hours haven't passed

Too early once more

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah this is fine

 

[KingTempest]

Through reading through the thread more and some offsite talk, i've been informed about statements of FTL speed caps and such, especially by the statements quoted by @EldemadeDityjon. How many speed cap statements are there and how consistent are they?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Through reading through the thread more and some offsite talk, i've been informed about statements of FTL speed caps and such, especially by the statements quoted by @EldemadeDityjon. How many speed cap statements are there and how consistent are they?

Info particles don't surpass the speed of light in spatial speed (they can still move in time by speed).
But the speed of light isn't constant in the verse either (I attached examples in the summary (mine) that Spaceman posted., where sometimes SoL is 300,000 km/s, sometimes it's scientifically over that number/ignores space-time, and sometimes instantaneous).

If the variable SoL can go from scientific SoL (X) to infinite (Y), Data particles are always at Y (maximum and constant speed). The reason they get immmeasurable is for being capable of temporal movement as well.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Through reading through the thread more and some offsite talk, i've been informed about statements of FTL speed caps and such, especially by the statements quoted by @EldemadeDityjon. How many speed cap statements are there and how consistent are they?

The verse is capped below the Speed of Light normally with some having FTL perception. Some attacks utilize light so that's Speed of Light attack speed for those techniques.

The movement speed of Information Particles is constant meaning it always stays the same not increasing or decreasing and they are clearly said to not surpass the speed of light.

Then why, one might ask, do 'information particles' appear to exceed the speed of light? Well, it's not that their speed is faster. It feels like 'information particles,' which should exist in separate coordinates, are transferring "information" to one another with zero time delay. Regardless of the distance between them, as long as the 'information particles' exist within a perceptible space, the transfer happens instantaneously. In other words, 'information particles' transcend spacetime.

As it seems, information transfer happens when the particles collide and it takes place in zero seconds which is well and good however there is a delay in the movement of the information particles themselves.

Is that so? The conversation between me and Ciel-san was happening instantly. However, the voice I heard from Chloe had a slight time difference. The reason for this remained unknown though, right? If the information particle was unaffected by time and space, then wouldn't it make sense that communication would be instantaneous as well?
«I am part of Master, so I am not affected by time at all. However, if you want to know what's going on outside in the suspended world, an information particle needs to be flown out to grasp the information of the surroundings—»

With their speed being constant, this reveals two things namely:

• Information transfer between information particles is completed in zero seconds.
• The process of moving an Information Particle out at least isn't completed in zero seconds.

The rest is easy to piece together. These particles transcend / are unbound from / aren't hindered by time and space so it can be sent to any point in time. This however isn't achieved as a result of speed, it's the result of an ability. Immeasurable speed requires the speed formula to still be applicable but it isn't in this case as distance and time aren't a factor to information particles. They can move to any time period or any spatial coordinate by bypassing both space and time

This is no different from verses where time travel is achieved through FTL movement, how speedsters can achieve time travel through the speed force by going at or above certain speeds but it still isn't immeasurable. Same for spatial manipulators that link one space to another and bypass the distance between them. It's must not necessarily be teleportation or time travel but it isn't immeasurable speed either especially in this case where their speed is stated to not surpass the speed of light

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

The verse is capped below the Speed of Light normally with some having FTL perception. Some attacks utilize light so that's Speed of Light attack speed for those techniques.

The movement speed of Information Particles is constant meaning it always stays the same not increasing or decreasing and they are clearly said to not surpass the speed of light.

As it seems, information transfer happens when the particles collide and it takes place in zero seconds which is well and good however there is a delay in the movement of the information particles themselves.

With their speed being constant, this reveals two things namely:

• Information transfer between information particles is completed in zero seconds.
• The process of moving an Information Particle out at least isn't completed in zero seconds.

The rest is easy to piece together. These particles transcend / are unbound from / aren't hindered by time and space so it can be sent to any point in time. This however isn't achieved as a result of speed, it's the result of an ability. Immeasurable speed requires the speed formula to still be applicable but it isn't in this case as distance and time aren't a factor to information particles. They can move to any time period or any spatial coordinate by bypassing both space and time

This is no different from verses where time travel is achieved through FTL movement, how speedsters can achieve time travel through the speed force by going at or above certain speeds but it still isn't immeasurable. Same for spatial manipulators that link one space to another and bypass the distance between them. It's must not necessarily be teleportation or time travel but it isn't immeasurable speed either especially in this case where their speed is stated to not surpass the speed of light

Lolll

Can you please learn to differentiate between Emergency Mode and being a Digital Lifeform? It's literally on Rimuru's profile (which Astral has talked about before).

The scans you use are of when Rimuru was not a digital lifeform. Ciel derived Emergency Mode so he could perceive Infons. She was handling all the Data Particle management, and since she's a Manas (a Digital Nature herself), there was no lag in vision.

But the lag occurred when Rimuru was talking to Chloe. Because Rimuru was not a DLF himself, he needs time to process Information (unless you assume he has infinite processing speed himself at that time, which you'll have to prove), and that processing time takes lag.

Also, if the movement of infon itself does not occur in 0 time, tell me, how is his vision uniform and constant instead of seeing things with accumulated seconds of delay over time?
If the info particle movement doesn't occur in 0 time, the information Rimuru receives from them will be of what happened some seconds into the past.

And how will he process the things that happened in between the time that data particles take to travel in your interpretation?

Please understand the actual point of the plot instead of using a scan out of context.

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

It's quite amusing that some members of the opposition act as if they understand the subject, while their responses clearly show that they don't even grasp the basic point being discussed. In any case, I don't blame them for that.

But none of this is really the main point. Right now, the only question I have is whether Information Particles need to touch in order to transmit information. If they do, then Information Particles from the future being able to touch Information Particles in the past would imply some form of non-linear interaction through movement.

Also, could you please remind the opposition to provide the evidence that was requested? If they have it, they should present it. If they don't, they should simply admit it instead of wasting everyone's time with delays and avoiding the question.

 

[AlexSamDen]

negacion isn't actually made of matter it should be assumed to be equal to real light

I think you clicked the wrong thread...

 

[Soulking22334]

I think you clicked the wrong thread...

your right this happens to me a lot+ sorry

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Well, since there's been no evidence otherwise, I agree with Immeasurable Speed.

Though I will clarify, spatially, as Astral said, I do think Information Particles have a finite speed but can also act non-linearly in the cases where they have been shown to do so.

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

I will add the acceptable items then, and I request that the topic be closed.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

But none of this is really the main point. Right now, the only question I have is whether Information Particles need to touch in order to transmit information. If they do, then Information Particles from the future being able to touch Information Particles in the past would imply some form of non-linear interaction through movement.

You can close this if you think there is no further discussion needs to be done but can you show where this was proven? Or you just making an assumption without anything to back it up?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

You can close this if you think there is no further discussion needs to be done but can you show where this was proven? Or you just making an assumption without anything to back it up?

I literally asked for either you or Tatsumi to provide evidence, even a single scan, that the transmission of information between Information Particles can happen without direct contact between particles.

If you can provide that, please do so; if not, then I have no other explanation for how two Information Particles in different times are able the 'touch' each other.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Well, since there's been no evidence otherwise, I agree with Immeasurable Speed.

Though I will clarify, spatially, as Astral said, I do think Information Particles have a finite speed but can also act non-linearly in the cases where they have been shown to do so.

Wait, did u mean finite or infinite? Is it perhaps a typo? Since you told me on discord the example I gave was of infinite speed.

---

I'll give an example of this. Ciel sent Rimuru information during Volume 21. Shuna was in the present while Ciel was either in the far future or outside time itself (don't know which specific one since it was never clarified exactly when Ciel sent her this info after she was transferred).

Shuna was convinced that it was not Rimuru. However, she thought that it was, without a doubt, Rimuru's power. That Shuna succeeded in Imitation Alteration (Imitation) at this timing was because there had been the involvement of someone. In fact, even if she tried to reproduce this, it was impossible by Shuna's own will. This was probably because, aiming precisely for this timing, information had been delivered across space time, and precisely because of that, even Shuna was able to accomplish it. The one who did that was no. Thinking that pursuing that question would be tactless, Shuna abandoned her line of thought.
Volume 21

The only requirement for this is that you have the coordinates. That's the same for Ciel as well as others like Mai:

<You already have the ability to dominate time and space, Master. With those two skills, transcending time itself is a simple matter.>

Ciel sounded pretty proud. From the start, it must’ve seen exactly what I wanted.
So I guess I really can go back after all?

<That will not be a problem. You have many people connected to you via a soul corridor, so we already know the space-time coordinates for the relevant point.>
OTL V21E

To perform Space Time Leap with Mai's Ultimate Skill Lord of the Stellar World (Terra Mater), the coordinates of the place where one currently is, the coordinates of the destination, and, in addition to these, the energy required for the movement are necessary. If it is on a planet, it is an authority that can be exercised without requiring such a large amount of energy, making it highly convenient.
Volume 22

(Note: Mai is not a DLF, and neither are yuuki and the rest at this time, so they need energy to move as well.

I think it's safe to assume one can transfer it to other points in time IF they have the space-time coordinates of that exact point. It's as much as needing to know the address of your destination before you can give someone the letter.

Explaining this in the speed description itself would make it too large, so we can list this as a Note, much like what we do with our "Infinite perception speed normally"

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I think Infinite Attack Speed & Combat Speed is fine based off of the scans you sent me, but I'm iffy about Movement Speed and the rest.