The Quintessential 1-A Upgrade + Other Stuff(Re:Creators)

[TheGreatJedi13]

The argument for 1-A Humans doesn't equally match the scans provided for it, even if we assume the Hounds of Tindalos. Even in vswiki, we do not consider them as transcending space and time, as what you are trying to imply to qualify for low 1-A and 1-A

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Hounds_of_Tindalos

And if ever you want to include the entirety of CM. That would literally posit that the real world exists beyond Azathoth and Yog Sothoth, which again would dive heavily into crossverse scaling rules, especially when none satisfy the needed requirements for 1-A

 

[Vesxpura]

I'd have to agree with Arceus0x here, if the premise implies everyone and their mother becoming tier 1 by being above R>Fs, that just makes the lower realities tier 11 on grounds of the reality in question being the baseline reality, rather than just recontextualizing the "baseline" setting to 1-A or above, a site-wide CRT would be required otherwise as to allow this sort of recontextualization.

The argument isnt because of R>F though, its because of the fact that the real world has a higher nature to it, and that higher nature is the source of their superiority over the storyworlds which are conventional spacetimes. There is no mention of r>f anywhere, im just verbatim proving what 1-A is. Also there are only like 5 - 7 established characters that are getting this. And assuming that to be "baseline" i would disagree with.

The argument for 1-A Humans doesn't equally match the scans provided for it,

i mean if you agree with the scans i already provided, yes it does.
have i proved the real world has a nature fundamentally different to the storyworlds? yes
have i proved that the real world has superiority over the storyworlds? yes
have i proved the superiority is grounded in their nature? yes i have, these 3 checkboxes are the requirements for 1-A. or if you have a contention to one of these ideas.

Even in vswiki, we do not consider them as transcending space and time, as what you are trying to imply to qualify for low 1-A and 1-A

i dont know what you mean by this since the scans i provided for them transcending space time and dimensions is from the re:creators secret archive and guidebook and not from the original mythos stories. So if you agree to that, then it should qualify for low 1-A because statements of "above dimensions" that entail valid superiority over dimensions is grounds for Low 1-A

And if ever you want to include the entirety of CM

i dont need to since frankly they scale below the verse im scaling rn

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

i dont know what you mean by this since the scans i provided for them transcending space time and dimensions is from the re:creators secret archive and guidebook and not from the original mythos stories. So if you agree to that, then it should qualify for low 1-A because statements of "above dimensions" that entail valid superiority over dimensions is grounds for Low 1-A

A vague transcend time, and dimension doesn't mean anything scaling-wise

The argument isnt because of R>F though, its because of the fact that the real world has a higher nature to it, and that higher nature is the source of their superiority over the storyworlds which are conventional spacetimes. There is no mention of r>f anywhere, im just verbatim proving what 1-A is. Also there are only like 5 - 7 established characters that are getting this. And assuming that to be "baseline" i would disagree with.

If you are arguing that it has a higher nature. Then explain why this higher nature somehow entails being qualitatively superior. Because from the scans alone, almost nothing suggests this except the funny, vague Hounds of Tindalos.

 

[Vesxpura]

Then explain why this higher nature somehow entails being qualitatively superior.

i already did.
its literally why i defined QS in the first place
from what i understood you agree the higher nature is the source of their superiority over the storyworlds so what seems to be the problem.

This inaccessibility possessed by qualitatively superior characters and realms can also be expressed in terms of sheer ontology, generally speaking. That is to say: They are fundamentally different from the nature of the lower reality, and this different nature is precisely the source of their superiority over it. Since their "otherness" is identical to their transcendence, no expansion or extension of the lower reality and anything in it can possibly attain to them, as long as it maintains its particular nature. Put it simply: They are as powerful as they are alien.

A vague transcend time, and dimension doesn't mean anything scaling-wise

since you say its vague, can you give me an valid interpretation that differs from mine.

 

[Vesxpura]

donno why i have to say this but if anyone decides to make a statement in the future, do not talk about r>f or you will be ignored, it has no relevance to the argument here since the OP never talks about r>f and its not the only way to get 1-A.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

A vague transcend time, and dimension doesn't mean anything scaling-wise

If you are arguing that it has a higher nature. Then explain why this higher nature somehow entails being qualitatively superior. Because from the scans alone, almost nothing suggests this except the funny, vague Hounds of Tindalos.

The counterargument stems from the realities being 11-C and "not complete spaces". Sure, 11-C realities that can be crossed over with a dimensional gate, amirite?

Bro, Selesia's universe literally has multiple timelines because Light Novel version and Anime version are DIVERSE, and our Selesia was from the Anime timeline where she had no idea regarding the events happening in the LN version, which is explicitly stated to be the "future" for her, implying the existence of entire timelines.

There's also this, as well as the implementation of Multiverse Theory at the last episode.

Also there was a WOG about the storyworlds being parallel to the human world instead of being lower, if anything, here goes.

 

[Tarcaver]

I remember reading Altair's article on this wiki a while back and being confused on why the low complex justification wasn't just straight up outer with the way it was argued, about time someone rectified this. Anyways, can someone tag the staff to review the proposal?

 

[Vesxpura]

I remember reading Altair's article on this wiki a while back and being confused on why the low complex justification wasn't just straight up outer

cuz the OP was scared smth terrible would happen. which is fair tbh. this thread was designed in a way that terrible thing wouldnt happen. so yuh

Anyways, can someone tag the staff to review the proposal?

already did, problem is, its too uncontroversial n self evident. so like guys kinda ignoring it for a bit.

 

[Vesxpura]

The counterargument stems from the realities being 11-C

not really. pretty sure it just comes from somehow thinking about r>f and i think they gave up on arguing that too.

Also there was a WOG about the storyworlds being parallel to the human world instead of being lower, if anything, here goes.

WoG isnt allowed for the verse afaik. and also thats talking about their relation to imagination.

 

[ForgotWhy.exe]

Option 2 seems to make the most sense to me.

 

[Vesxpura]

Best to get back onto topic from here though, okay?

would appreciate it alot if you could ping some mods, and/or you would like to evaluate it urself out of pity

 

[Random-Helper323]

would appreciate it alot if you could ping some mods, and/or you would like to evaluate it urself out of pity

Sorry, High 1-A isn't my most familiar area, and I know nothing about Re:Creators at all.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

not really. pretty sure it just comes from somehow thinking about r>f and i think they gave up on arguing that too.


WoG isnt allowed for the verse afaik. and also thats talking about their relation to imagination.

The question's answer is about fictional worlds being parallel to the real world, which was to counter previous guys mentioning of 11-C type shit bruv, calm down.

 

[Hecky2222]

Bro why I didn't unfollow thread yet

 

[Vesxpura]

The question's answer is about fictional worlds being parallel to the real world, which was to counter previous guys mentioning of 11-C type shit bruv, calm down.

you responded to the wrong guy.

Bro why I didn't unfollow thread yet

cz its peak

 

[AyOgUyS]

As we can see, the ability of a creator is to create worlds.

Furthermore, this ability is irreducible to the worlds it creates as lower beings like meteora and selesia are unable to identify these new qualities they experience and hence call them unique.

I'm not sure that alone is enough to qualify for 1-A.

Given that information is both language and reality and also extends to ALL worlds this shows ontological irreducibility as it is fundamental to all material composites and cannot be expressed using them and also falls short of expressing anything in the real world causing a failure in reduction leading to irreducibility

Could you elaborate?

"even though we are not supposed to even be able to recognize its existence" - Episode 2

"in this world I can really sense smells, that's the biggest difference from my world - Episode 3

"all have an unique smell" - Episode 18

So this world has smells while lower realms lack smells? Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I don't see how this is 1-A.

So, since we established that the real world exerts influence over all material composites and is not reducible to them, it qualifies for what ultima deemed as "superiority to dimensionality":

So we have our definition of "superiority to dimensionality": Power which influences all material composites, but is itself not divisible or reducible to any of them.

All you really established is that these higher realms have smells while lower ones don't though?

Now for the jump to outerversal, the series clearly establishes how this superiority is grounded in the essence of the world, and that the Real World has a unique nature relative to the material realm.

"Yes, that's right. This world is like, how should I say it? Yes! From food to drinks, everything here is so deep! As expected, this place has the potential to create other worlds.” - Chapter 18 page 1

"Yes, it is. The scent of the tide and the scent of wood. The scent of this steam is the same, and so is the light of the sun."

"I think everything is rich due to the multi-layered nature of this world." - Chapter 16 page 9

"Of course, my world should have had enough information to build an entire world. However, all the information in this world is multi-layered. Even a trivial piece of information has a complexity that cannot be expressed in a single number."

If we look at the amount of information, the world in which Meteora exists can be compared akin to that of a scenery on a canvas.
Flower shops, department stores, shopping malls, game arcades... I see, Selesia and Meteora are curious wherever they go.
"I think it's quite possible that the vast amount of information in this world can give birth to other worlds as condensation of 'possibilities'."
Hearing this, Selesia, who had been absorbed in a crane game, scoffs and replies back.
"What? Are you saying that what these people think of as fantasies can actually influence my world? Ridiculous." - Chapter 2 page 6,7

Just being described as "deep" and "multi-layered" doesn't indicate a 1-A level of existence. These statements seem to moreso indicate the world having a bunch of new things and experiences for Selesia and Meteora rather than literally being ontologically transcendent to physical reality.

[TL Note: 桁違い also means Incomparable but since the anime mentioned "Several Orders of Magnitude" as the translation, therefore, it is used since the general idea portrayed is the Storyworlds are completely insignificant and Trivial when compared to the Real World.]

Wouldn't this contradict 1-A? If it can be reached through several orders of magnitude, which is a quantifiable amount, that means it's not truly 1-A.

This is further supported by the fact that to exist within the real world it is necessary to undergo a metaphysical transformation if they come from outside of the worl , whereby material entities are transformed into higher-order forms capable of comprehending and thriving in the world's superior ontological framework. This shows how they are fundamentally different. and that as long as the residants of the world maintain their nature, they stay superior always, at all times. which aligns with what a 1-A being is supposed to be like.

Some supporting stuff i wanted to mention is also the fact that, they transcend the hounds of tindalos, which are stated to transcend dimensions and are superior to space and time, which should be enough to warrant Low Outer especially for their physiology. and support the metaphysical gap between the real world and storyworlds,

These two seem like the strongest arguments to me, maybe "possibly Low 1-A/1-A" could work

Lets first establish what that is,

Characters or objects who operate on a different, superior qualitative framework from 1-A entities. That is to say: If there is a hierarchy of 1-A layers, each of which operates within the same framework, with the same "algorithm" dictating the difference between them, a High 1-A character would transcend the framework entirely, and instead operate on a different, higher hierarchy, governed by another, likewise higher algorithm

Creators create worlds via stories. These stories act as necessary conditions for what they create, similar to a generating principle. This is important because at the end of the series, Meteora creates the story we have been following so far. This story would include the qualitative superiority i established here. And because of what we established prior, about how the real world is superior to ALL storyworlds no matter what, The real world is superior to this, and furthermore, since we established stories are the frameworks that determine things, Meteora effectively created the condition for 1-A, this condition is what allows all possible layers of 1-A to be instantiated. Therefore the real world transcending this, they should qualify for High 1-A as they transcend the framework which allows 1-A to occur, with "stories" here being the algorithm of such.

I don't think this is enough for High 1-A but I'll let more knowledgeable peeps decide.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

So this world has smells while lower realms lack smells? Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I don't see how this is 1-A.

It is more about what the plot of their stories include and don't. In example, Kanoya's world is in 2124, but they lack the invention of plastic, and Mamika's world never allowed collateral damage to be done and blood to be spilled, simply due to her show's childish nature... which seeing both happen traumatized her. Here's a better explanition.

 

[Vesxpura]

I'm not sure that alone is enough to qualify for 1-A.

yeh its not. thats js to establish superiority. you gotta look at the bigger picture. its going step by step. would you like it more if i just gave a single scan and based my argument off that?

Could you elaborate?

on what exactly. information corresponds to language thats explicitly shown in the explanation blog. and information is the substance of all worlds. their ability is ontologically irreducible because theres nothing more fundamental to it. and it cannot be identified with composites it governs. and the last part is js how it works donno what else there is to elaborate on.

So this world has smells while lower realms lack smells? Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I don't see how this is 1-A.

u need to look at the bigger picture. ignoring 1-A. can we agree it establishes irreducibility to all storyworlds?

All you really established is that these higher realms have smells while lower ones don't though?

again, bigger picture. i establish that the storyworlds doesnt exhaust the capability of the real world, hence showing superiority as power is greater than that to which it is applied insofar as it cannot be exhausted by it. idk why ur trying to contend the buildup as 1-A. context is required.

Just being described as "deep" and "multi-layered" doesn't indicate a 1-A level of existence. These statements seem to moreso indicate the world having a bunch of new things and experiences for Selesia and Meteora rather than literally being ontologically transcendent to physical reality.

them having new experiences is an aspect of being ontologically transcendent . And yes it does, if you agree to multi layered and deep indicating the nature of the world is fundamentally different then we have no issues. the point of 1-A is that their superiority is grounded in that fundamentally different nature which makes it inaccessible to an extent.

Wouldn't this contradict 1-A? If it can be reached through several orders of magnitude, which is a quantifiable amount, that means it's not truly 1-A.

maybe read the context? its impossible for it be a quantifiable amount, not only does the translator disagree wit it being quantifiable but so does the anime, its legit used as a figure of speech, to guess what(as the translator says) to empahsize the insignificance of storyworlds relative to the land of the gods.

These two seem like the strongest arguments to me, maybe "possibly Low 1-A/1-A" could work

well they arent. maybe reread the argument, it might help.

 

[AyOgUyS]

yeh its not. thats js to establish superiority.

ok

on what exactly.

I'm not seeing how there is any ontological irreducibility here.

information corresponds to language thats explicitly shown in the explanation blog. and information is the substance of all worlds.

their ability is ontologically irreducible because theres nothing more fundamental to it. and it cannot be identified with composites it governs. and the last part is js how it works donno what else there is to elaborate on.

How is it ontologically irreducible? X being the substance of Y doesn't mean X is ontologically irreducible to Y.

again, bigger picture. i establish that the storyworlds doesnt exhaust the capability of the real world, hence showing superiority as power is greater than that to which it is applied insofar as it cannot be exhausted by it. idk why ur trying to contend the buildup as 1-A. context is required.

I'm sorry but I genuinely can't understand what you mean by this. Could any other Re:Creators supporters help me out?

them having new experiences is an aspect of being ontologically transcendent .

I'm not sure I follow. All I'm seeing is that this realm has smells, foods, drinks, and other mundane things that lower realms lack. How is this an indication of any ontological transcendence?

And yes it does, if you agree to multi layered and deep indicating the nature of the world is fundamentally different then we have no issues.

You mean like fundamentally different in the sense that the higher realm has things the lower realm doesn't have?

the point of 1-A is that their superiority is grounded in that fundamentally different nature which makes it inaccessible to an extent.

Is this like stated? I don't see where this is coming from, the scans in the OP never say anything about inaccessibility or a fundamental superiority.

maybe read the context? its impossible for it be a quantifiable amount, not only does the translator disagree wit it being quantifiable but so does the anime, its legit used as a figure of speech, to guess what(as the translator says) to empahsize the insignificance of storyworlds relative to the land of the gods.

Are you now saying the anime translation should not be used? Then why did you originally state that "since the anime mentioned "Several Orders of Magnitude" as the translation, therefore, it is used"

well they arent. maybe reread the argument, it might help.

Ok ig

 

[AyOgUyS]

It is more about what the plot of their stories include and don't. In example, Kanoya's world is in 2124, but they lack the invention of plastic, and Mamika's world never allowed collateral damage to be done and blood to be spilled, simply due to her show's childish nature... which seeing both happen traumatized her. Here's a better explanition.

So essentially: these worlds have different laws that dictate the course of events?

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

So essentially: these worlds have different laws that dictate the course of events?

Not only that, but every single storyworld is actually under the "yoke" of the Real World, ala the Narrative Causality; which not only dictates the world's information but also keeps some parts of the characters personalities locked. Those characters have begun to become more realistic (in terms of personality and all) once they have broken free of the Narrative Causality's weight (Thanks to Altair) on them too.

 

[Vesxpura]

I'm not seeing how there is any ontological irreducibility here.

How is it ontologically irreducible? X being the substance of Y doesn't mean X is ontologically irreducible to Y.

if the storyworlds are unable to fully reconstruct,identify or replace the land of the gods, then reduction isnt possible, and given were talking about their mode of being, its hence categorically ontological, and so we have ontological irreducibility.

and again please read the whole message. i specifically say without being identified by the composites it governs. which is the irreducible part.

I'm sorry but I genuinely can't understand what you mean by this

storyworlds are unable to capture wholly anything about the land of the gods. hence irreducible. and why they are superior.
the last part is me complaining about you contending the context/build up to the actual 1-A argument being 1-A.

I'm not sure I follow. All I'm seeing is that this realm has smells, foods, drinks, and other mundane things that lower realms lack. How is this an indication of any ontological transcendence?

read the scans, it specifically talks about its information/nature being the ground of this, the differences is caused by the difference in ontology. and hence its ontologically superior.

You mean like fundamentally different in the sense that the higher realm has things the lower realm doesn't have?

in the sense that their "what it is to be" them is fundamentally different. i dont know why ur being so myopic about this.

Is this like stated? I don't see where this is coming from, the scans in the OP never say anything about inaccessibility or a fundamental superiority.

yes, i state this, in the OP. based on the scans given.

Are you now saying the anime translation should not be used? Then why did you originally state that

figure of speech

the anime translation is right. its just not literal. i cant help you any further if you urself dont take the intiative to read what im actually saying.

 

[Vesxpura]

bump

 

[Vesxpura]

bump

 

[NaeveTeller]

Better bump

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