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Yu-Gi-Oh! General Discussion

Horakhty wasn't just anime she was also in the manga
Nah, I mean the the DSOD guide book.
The movie was canon to the manga, but not to the anime.
Horakhty was indeed canon to both the anime and manga, but the movie and the guidebook themselves belong in the manga continuity
I know there are multiple creators but what you said didn't confirm your claim. Kazuki Takahashi is the creator of yugioh and as such owned it. It wasn't until later when different studios and writers were a thing and even then he's the ultimate authority even though he didn't decide literally everything
Indeed he has the final say in the original manga continuity (which was the movie), but that doesnt mean the same applied to anything else extended beyond. Especially the card lores, where the stories are disconnected and standalone by themselves, all have no relation to Horakhty nor the manga continuity.
The only one who has been confirmed to have influence over every other cards is Ten Thousand Dragon, which drawn all the cards through the Hatching ability (the back of the cards are the string of the Ten Thousand Dragon itself)

Wouldn't numeron dragon be complex multiversal as he made the spirit worlds which could be 5d?
It has been years since I last watched Zexal, but I remember Numeron Dragon made 3 worlds? The Barian world, the Astra World and the human world
 
All of that for ended up being non-meta or straight up awful to play with (said by Solfachord player who is thirsty to summon both Z-ARC and Accesscode Talker on the same turn)
Most of the powerful characters in the lore have hillariously underpowered cards in the gameplay.
Except Visas lore.
I havent read Visas lore yet (due to my personal hatred for Kashtira and Tearlament), but from what I heard, Visas lore characters seem to be multiversal, and at the highest ceiling of YGO card lore power scailing. And they are also the strongests in the gameplay (Kashtira, Tearlament, ect).
But I dont care, I play stun deck, they all fear me
 
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仰テン!?① デザインの秘密は「超ひも理論」!!
Astonishing!? 1: The secret of the design is "Superstring Theory"!!

威厳のある堂々とした黄金のドラゴンと、その周りを覆う宇宙。豪快に描かれた神秘的な「万物創世龍」のイラストは、「万物は全て同じひもで出来ている」という考えに基づいた「超ひも理論」をベースにデザインされているのだ。「ひも」を現したドラゴンが、多数の線によって表現された宇宙を吐き出しているそのイラストには、「万物」を線で描き、「創世」するという想いが込められている。「超ひも理論」が持つ壮大な理論を取り入れた「万物創世龍」は、これからの「OCG」の世界を創る最高のシンボルとなるだろう。
A majestic, dignified golden dragon and the universe that envelops it. The boldly drawn, mysterious illustration of "Ten Thousand Dragon" is designed based on "Superstring Theory," which stems from the idea that "all things are made of the same strings." In this illustration, where a dragon representing a "string" spews out a universe expressed by numerous lines, the concept of drawing "all things" (banbutsu) with lines and "creating the world" (sousei) is embedded. "Ten Thousand Dragon," which incorporates the grand scale of "Superstring Theory," will likely become the supreme symbol that creates the future world of the "OCG."
In that excerpt you posted, the translation says "will likely become the supreme symbol that creates the future world of the "OCG."".

Given that Ten Thousand Dragon was made to commemorate there being 10,000 real & distinct cards being made, isn't it possible their wording is about it making the "future world" (AKA, the "world" or stories of the cards, whatever cosmologies that may entail, no pun intended.) which would mean it's making the "world" cards after the 10,000th card are featured in?
Or in simpler terms, if it's making the "future world of the 'OCG'", could that mean it's only creating the worlds of the OCG cards made after the 10,000th card?
 
In that excerpt you posted, the translation says "will likely become the supreme symbol that creates the future world of the "OCG."".

Given that Ten Thousand Dragon was made to commemorate there being 10,000 real & distinct cards being made, isn't it possible their wording is about it making the "future world" (AKA, the "world" or stories of the cards, whatever cosmologies that may entail, no pun intended.) which would mean it's making the "world" cards after the 10,000th card are featured in?
Or in simpler terms, if it's making the "future world of the 'OCG'", could that mean it's only creating the worlds of the OCG cards made after the 10,000th card?
You could interpret it like that, I dont think it would change the tier of the Ten Thousand Dragon (Low 1-C) tbh.
The "Endless multiverse" (2-B) of the OCG Stories manga was made after Ten Thousand Dragon release, so it's author-like transcendance would still make it Low 1-C
 
Most of the powerful characters in the lore have hillariously underpowered cards in the gameplay.
Except Visas lore.
I havent read Visas lore yet (due to my personal hatred for Kashtira and Tearlament), but from what I heard, Visas lore characters seem to be multiversal, and at the highest ceiling of YGO card lore power scailing. And they are also the strongests in the gameplay (Kashtira, Tearlament, ect).
But I dont care, I play stun deck, they all fear me
Strongest
Mannadium and Scareclaw:
images
 
Nah, I mean the the DSOD guide book.
The movie was canon to the manga, but not to the anime.
Horakhty was indeed canon to both the anime and manga, but the movie and the guidebook themselves belong in the manga continuity

Indeed he has the final say in the original manga continuity (which was the movie), but that doesnt mean the same applied to anything else extended beyond. Especially the card lores, where the stories are disconnected and standalone by themselves, all have no relation to Horakhty nor the manga continuity.
The only one who has been confirmed to have influence over every other cards is Ten Thousand Dragon, which drawn all the cards through the Hatching ability (the back of the cards are the string of the Ten Thousand Dragon itself)


It has been years since I last watched Zexal, but I remember Numeron Dragon made 3 worlds? The Barian world, the Astra World and the human world
Ok,thanks for the clarification

You didn't discredit anything that's online

Yes he made the spirit worlds which are likely 5d
 
"When the world first began, there existed 'the black waters of the primal Tehom'. They took shape and grew, and what was born were eight pillar deities with fluid forms that serve as the foundation of creation. And from there, they created all that exists with their power.[9]"

Depends on what the "black waters of the primal Tehom" is.
The 8 pillars with "fluid form that serve as the foundation of creation" may possibly be covered under Stabilization Feats.

Creating all that exists is also a bit ambiguous depending on the nature of Tehom. IIRC, creating a universe, ala a Big Bang is High 3-A because usually a universe can be assumed to be infinite like ours & so be High 3-A.
But if a spece-time continuum was made, that'd be Low 2-C, I think.



The Sun of the Beginning

In the beginning, there was no light nor even time in the 'primal Tehom' filled with the 'black water'. Then, the eight pillar deities were born, and then the Sun was created.

Creation of a timeline, Low 2-C.
Making the sun is probably the same as making our regular sun, which is somewhere in Tier 4, IIRC.

The Gods that Manifested from 'the Black Waters of the Primal Tehom'


Yugipedia claims in Ogdoadic Origin's Trivia section says:
Trivia for that says:
  • This monster is based on Naunet, one of the eight Egyptian Ogdoad.
We can't do much on that ALONE, but it could be useful for inferences of thematics/tones/motifs, etc.. I think.

The Constantly-Changing Existences in the Primal Tehom[edit]

OgdoadicSerpentStrike-MADU-EN-VG-artwork.pngOgdoadicCalling-MADU-EN-VG-artwork.png
"Ogdoadic Serpent Strike""Ogdoadic Calling"
The deities, who are themselves 'black water', also create lifeforms from 'black water'.

Ogdoadic Serpent Strike's Trivia:
Ogdoadic Calling's Trivia:

The Other Gods​

The Gods of Time and Space

"Flogos, the Ogdoadic Boundless""Zohah, the Ogdoadic Boundless"
The Gods of Light and Darkness

"Keurse, the Ogdoadic Light""Aleirtt, the Ogdoadic Dark"

Unsure what to make of all this. I feel like understanding Tehom might be important, & there might be something to make of studying the Ogdoad to see what insights into this can be gleamed, but beyond that, IDK what to make of this.
I don't always deal with higher tier stuff.

Hope this helps!
I found a calc that could theoretically place it much higher.
OgdoadicDaybreak-MADU-EN-VG-artwork.png

The Creation Myth that inspired it and the lore has the sun emerging from the black waters of Tehom (and being the source that created the universe or "everything that exists")
If you recall, there's a Lanturn Calc that uses the fact it outputs a visible light through 5km of seawater and the exponential requirements for light to pierce through water due to how good it is at absorbing light to get around 10^105 Watts per second utilizing the Beer-Lambert Law.
I(d) = I(0) * e^(-d*a)
I(d) = Light at Depth/Power Output at X distance (W)
I(0) = Light at Source/Power Input (W)
d = Depth (Meters)
a = Light Absorption of Water.
Now, we have a pretty similar case here, only instead of 5 km or the 5 mW at 5 km, it's the sun.
a = 0.05 (Water Absorption of Yellow Light)
d = 695,700 km or 695,700,000 m (Radius of Sun, since half of the sun is submerged in the waters)
I(d) = 63,000,000 Watts (Surface Light of Sun)
63,000,000 = I(0) * e^(-695,700,000 * 0.05)
63,000,000 = I(0) * e^(-34,785,000)
63,000,000 = I(0) * 1 / e^34,785,000
63,000,000 / (1 / e^34,785,000) = I(0)
63,000,000 * e^34,785,000 = I(0)
2.25 * 10^15106941 W = I(0)
Or 2.25 * 10^15106871 x universal.
Obviously a rough estimate for a very obviously absurd highball using formulas/calcs you would never use for such a thing (as seen with the Lanturn calc), but it is interesting Yugioh has a larger scale version of the Lanturn calc, and it is technically supported by supplementary data about the archetype.
 
Anyways, on a more serious note, has there been any work on making an Upgrade Thread? We could compile a list of known information and general arguments.

For Starters
Yugioh has made multiple mentions of containing an infinite multiverse, as collaborated by
DSOD Guidebook Statements "The scene around the beginning of the movie is an image of the multiverse theory, which says that there is an infinite number of universes other than the one we are in, and that there is another you in another universe, and that both these universes and you exist in an infinite number.”"
5Ds Manga Chapter 33 "To Duel is to catch limitless possibilities. In every single instant, a universe is created."
Zexal Manga Chapter 44 "The Astral World and our world float in an ocean of otherworlds."
Go Rush Episode 135, 139, 150 all discuss parallel universes and 150 has Otei absorb parallel universe counterparts of himself.
Similarly, there's also the Duel Spirit World, which is stated by the OCG Stories Manga "Sky Striker" and "Magistus" to contain "infinite" and "endless" worlds. These worlds also have multiple timelines, as seen by the different continuities both Striker, and Magistus and multiple other lore series have. This Duel Spirit World is also treated as the "backside" of the card compared to the Human World's front side.
There's also the argument to be made of multiple sets of infinite multiverses, such as why the Duel Spirit World has different iterations depending on the anime/manga, or why something like Zexal has an entirely different cosmology to DM-GX-5Ds. Duel Links also describes the connection of many multiverses.
So as a benchmark, both the Yugioh Human World and and Duel Spirit World would both be at minimum, 2-A.

Higher Dimensional Arguments
Duel Links
: Well this is literally just stated to connect the infinite multiverses and timelines of Yugioh, and is a literal bulkspace, so...
Prana/Afterlife: Both of these are treated as transcendant of Duel Links, with there being an infinite realm of darkness prior to Kaiba ascending into the Afterlife, which is explicitly stated to be "ascending to a higher-level of dimension".
World of Speed: The DB Q&A stated that the World of Speed was stated to transcend space and time and contain its infinite possibilities. I couldn't find citations for this, but this is just a rough draft.
Astral/Barian Realms: The Zexal Manga states that when the "human world connects to the Astral World, they'll reach a higher plane without suffering", a "higher dimension than the world we live in", "the souls of the people there exist on a higher plane than ours", and the Zexal anime, only those with a "Ranked-Up" soul can reach the Astral World. Similarly, the Barian Realm, the cast out form of the Astral World, is stated to be a "meta-energy world" alongside the Astral World in Duel Links and "worlds of high energy" in the anime "with no metaphysics". Rank-Ups also kinda make it blatant that they're treated as a direct superiority and Eliphas's whole shtick is about ascending to a higher plane of existence by "Ranking-Up".
The Barian Realm being the a cast-out version of the Astral Realm, that souls can potentially go to either the Barian Realm, or the Astral Realm if ascended, and the Barian Rank Ups only rank up by 1 rank while the Astral Rank Up ranks up by 2 does suggest a superiority to the Astral Realm compared to the Barian Realm which is superior to the Human World. Although admittedly, Zexal does also imply an equal nature between the Astral and Barian Worlds.
There is an argument that there are instances in which the Human World is implied to be treated as Parallel to the Astral/Barian Realms. We'd need a transcript to determine if the "parallel" is even accurate, but one could see that as either claiming the Astral World/Barian World are parallel to one another, or that the more science-oriented characters were mistaken, especially since initially, Dr. Faker was unable to find a way to access the Barian/Astral Realm prior to sacrificing his friends, and it is only through the usage of energies from the Astral or Barian Realm they're able to travel to said dimensions. Additionally, the Human Realm is treated as inferior, such as when the waves from the Barian/Astral Realm were able to stop time, and the war entirely focused around the Astral/Barian Worlds, while the only instance of the Human World damaging one of these realms was with Hart's powers which explicitly use Chaos. In addition, the part in which the Barian, Astral, Human Worlds were shown as parallel in Episode 142/II Episode 69, it was also explicitly stated the Barian and Human Worlds were still merged, and you can see that it is merged in that duel. Also, only the Astral/Barian Realms were merged at the Zexal finale, the Human World went unmerged and is still treated as generally inaccessible to humans compared to the other way around.

Duel Spirit World
Incidental Random Transcendental Planes
:
Mistva is stated be a transcendent entity of whom forces Emva, Hakva and Kaiva to clash to determine who will be his successor, with the winner becoming Mistva and the losers becoming Anva, who would be erased from existence. Mistva even exists in the Extra Deck as reference to existing, in a transcendental zone. The limiting factor here is that Mistva's showings are planetary. But you know, Anva is shattering reality in Ryu-Ge End.
The Lightsworn's Realm of Light is stated to be beyond space and time, have laws separate from the rest of time and space, and that if they ever fall their immortal souls will return to the Realm of Light.
Banishment/Different Dimension: I'm surprised I've literally never seen anyone making the case for this but, you could argue that the Banishment is in fact a bulkspace for the entirety of the Duel Spirit World. We can see that it connects multiple instances of timelines, such as Dai Grepher's two paths on the Paths of Destiny in Different Dimension Encounter, and universes, like how Trance Archfiend (Trans Archfiend in the OCG as reference to literally being transdimensional) intercepting Genex Ally Birdman who went through a Dimensional Fissure. There's also multiple instances of the Different Dimension having multiple swirling portals (some similar to the Yugioh backing) to different universes, other instances of the Banishment suggesting it contains the Duel Spirit Universes such as Chaos Zone or that the Master Guide 2 lore for Aliens directly states the Otherworld that the Aliens breed their cosmic entities in is "not considered part of the Duel World" and looks strikingly like the banishment.
You might be able to make a similar case for the general GY realms and even the hand (by really stretching Hecahands) as transcendental realms given how the ED is treated and the Banishment but ehhhhhhh.
REMEMBER THAT ONE TIME YUBEL SAID 12 DIMENSIONAL UNIVERSES: Only mentioning it, but probably not. You could make the case that they were referred to as "12 Dimensional Universes" which implies the possibility of 12 universes that comprise of 12 Spatial Dimensions, and how Yubel had to summon a monster of each level to conduct her Super Polymerization ritual, and how Zexal treats Rank Ups as ascensions (and Levels just being the non-Xyz equivalent to Ranks) but yeah no. Unless one of the anniversary GX sets changes things there's really no reason to buy this.
Ten Thousand Dragon: You can literally see the cardback spiral he's coming out from, the same spiral that the OCG Stories Anniversary animation had DM and DMG coming into to show the entirety of the OCG Stories world. He's stated to have created the OCG world, and exists in his own higher dimension from it. If you the banishment being a bulkspace for infinite multiverses which themselves can contain higher dimensions within them (not that high of a stretch given that something like Metaphys Executor, Regenesis Birth, Missing Barrows contain multiple universes within themselves), he'd be 7-D. He's also stated to just be a card, so I guess anyone that scales above it could be considered 8-D?
 
Similarly, there's also the Duel Spirit World, which is stated by the OCG Stories Manga "Sky Striker" and "Magistus" to contain "infinite" and "endless" worlds. These worlds also have multiple timelines, as seen by the different continuities both Striker, and Magistus and multiple other lore series have. This Duel Spirit World is also treated as the "backside" of the card compared to the Human World's front side.
The word that the translated manga used was "endless worlds", which is not 2-A, but 2-B.
Unless the original Japanee word is 無限 (infinite), not 無数 (countless), the multiverse of OCG Stories stay 2-B
 

mLVNIHa.jpeg

The Magistus part says "無限" or infinite. There's also the collaborating argument that the Duel Spirit World is pretty firmly attached to Yugioh's multiverse with both GX anime statements by Nightshroud and the Zexal manga having it be derived from the Astral World, + transcendental dimensional layers, so it would be kinda weird if it was finite, but the Magistus opener does kinda explicitly make it 2-A.
 
Also, since we're on the topic of direct japanese words, would you happen to know what the Japanese terms for "parallel" would be and if the Zexal episodes called them as parallel or if they were simply called "other worlds" and the fan subs only called them parallel? The episodes translated as parallel I could find are Episode 55 and 116
 
Also, since we're on the topic of direct japanese words, would you happen to know what the Japanese terms for "parallel" would be and if the Zexal episodes called them as parallel or if they were simply called "other worlds" and the fan subs only called them parallel? The episodes translated as parallel I could find are Episode 55 and 116
the word for the parallel worlds is "平行世界” (Heikou Sekai)

Also, noice, this mean the OCG multiverse is solidly 2-A
 
https://*********.com.ru/Anime/Yu-Gi-Oh-Zexal.87787/Episode-055?id=25302 10:28
https://*********.com.ru/Anime/Yu-Gi-Oh-Zexal-Second.53329/Episode-043?id=51487 13:28
https://*********.com.ru/Anime/Yu-Gi-Oh-Zexal-Second.53329/Episode-073?id=69414&s=hserver 20:32
From a google search, it seems the Japanese pronounciation for parallel is "heiko" and I can't seem to find the instance of these words being pronounced when talking about the Astral or Barian Realm.
They also seem to be referring it to "isekai" or "different world/dimension", which IIRC is ambigious, but given the claims about the Astral World/Barian World would heavily suggest that these are in fact higher dimensions.
 
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the word for the parallel worlds is "平行世界” (Heikou Sekai)

Also, noice, this mean the OCG multiverse is solidly 2-A
We could probably do better than that and argue for at least 1-C (7-D) Ten Thousand Dragon. The Lightsworn's MD and Master Guide article both refer to the Realm of Light being a "transcendent" realm being beyond space and time, and Mistva is stated to be a transcendent being (and also flat out exists in the Extra Deck in comparison to the Ryu-Ge's functioning in the hand/GY/banishment as a reference to his transcendental nature to the other Ryu-Ges. This, alongside cards like Anotherverse monsters, Metaphys, Regenesis Birth, etc, suggest that the card universes of Yugioh can themselves contain transcendental/higher realms and universes within themselves. From there, we could also argue that the banishment functions as a transdimensional bulkspace from which the timelines and multiverses of the Duel Spirit World connect. And from there, well Ten Thousand Dragon exists in his own realm above the entire Duel Spirit World. I imagine given the MD and Master Guide translations that arguing for the Realm of Light being a transcendental realm beyond "space and time" would be pretty easy, we'd just have to screenshot the japanese MD lore and maybe try and scrounge up the original Japanese Master Guide raws as supplement. We could also add to the banishment argument a little more to help support it being a bulkspace connecting the entire Duel Spirit World.

On that note, I wonder if we should start scaling effects or if we should save that after we buff out the arguments for "2-A/1-C Yugioh".
 
Also... when we are talking about lores, maybe it's best not to try to translating the game mechanic into actual lore powers.

Mostly because it would give too many characters the ability they didnt demonstrated in their stories.
 
While 7-D would be nice, we would have to prove the Realm of Lightsworn to be "qualitively transcend" the lower worlds.

Cant remember much the exact wordings the Master Guide used, but iirc, it treated the realm as something more akin to a pocket dimension.
Isn't Qualitative Superiority only to argue for 1-A?
 
Isn't Qualitative Superiority only to argue for 1-A?

Is it?

It has been many years since I last participated in a CRT (I only came back to the site because I got addicted to Master Duel recently)

But anyway, if the standard is just space-time transcendance then I supposed it's fine.
 
Anyways, on a more serious note, has there been any work on making an Upgrade Thread? We could compile a list of known information and general arguments.

For Starters
Yugioh has made multiple mentions of containing an infinite multiverse, as collaborated by
DSOD Guidebook Statements "The scene around the beginning of the movie is an image of the multiverse theory, which says that there is an infinite number of universes other than the one we are in, and that there is another you in another universe, and that both these universes and you exist in an infinite number.”"
5Ds Manga Chapter 33 "To Duel is to catch limitless possibilities. In every single instant, a universe is created."
Zexal Manga Chapter 44 "The Astral World and our world float in an ocean of otherworlds."
Go Rush Episode 135, 139, 150 all discuss parallel universes and 150 has Otei absorb parallel universe counterparts of himself.
Similarly, there's also the Duel Spirit World, which is stated by the OCG Stories Manga "Sky Striker" and "Magistus" to contain "infinite" and "endless" worlds. These worlds also have multiple timelines, as seen by the different continuities both Striker, and Magistus and multiple other lore series have. This Duel Spirit World is also treated as the "backside" of the card compared to the Human World's front side.
There's also the argument to be made of multiple sets of infinite multiverses, such as why the Duel Spirit World has different iterations depending on the anime/manga, or why something like Zexal has an entirely different cosmology to DM-GX-5Ds. Duel Links also describes the connection of many multiverses.
So as a benchmark, both the Yugioh Human World and and Duel Spirit World would both be at minimum, 2-A.

Higher Dimensional Arguments
Duel Links
: Well this is literally just stated to connect the infinite multiverses and timelines of Yugioh, and is a literal bulkspace, so...
Prana/Afterlife: Both of these are treated as transcendant of Duel Links, with there being an infinite realm of darkness prior to Kaiba ascending into the Afterlife, which is explicitly stated to be "ascending to a higher-level of dimension".
World of Speed: The DB Q&A stated that the World of Speed was stated to transcend space and time and contain its infinite possibilities. I couldn't find citations for this, but this is just a rough draft.
Astral/Barian Realms: The Zexal Manga states that when the "human world connects to the Astral World, they'll reach a higher plane without suffering", a "higher dimension than the world we live in", "the souls of the people there exist on a higher plane than ours", and the Zexal anime, only those with a "Ranked-Up" soul can reach the Astral World. Similarly, the Barian Realm, the cast out form of the Astral World, is stated to be a "meta-energy world" alongside the Astral World in Duel Links and "worlds of high energy" in the anime "with no metaphysics". Rank-Ups also kinda make it blatant that they're treated as a direct superiority and Eliphas's whole shtick is about ascending to a higher plane of existence by "Ranking-Up".
The Barian Realm being the a cast-out version of the Astral Realm, that souls can potentially go to either the Barian Realm, or the Astral Realm if ascended, and the Barian Rank Ups only rank up by 1 rank while the Astral Rank Up ranks up by 2 does suggest a superiority to the Astral Realm compared to the Barian Realm which is superior to the Human World. Although admittedly, Zexal does also imply an equal nature between the Astral and Barian Worlds.
There is an argument that there are instances in which the Human World is implied to be treated as Parallel to the Astral/Barian Realms. We'd need a transcript to determine if the "parallel" is even accurate, but one could see that as either claiming the Astral World/Barian World are parallel to one another, or that the more science-oriented characters were mistaken, especially since initially, Dr. Faker was unable to find a way to access the Barian/Astral Realm prior to sacrificing his friends, and it is only through the usage of energies from the Astral or Barian Realm they're able to travel to said dimensions. Additionally, the Human Realm is treated as inferior, such as when the waves from the Barian/Astral Realm were able to stop time, and the war entirely focused around the Astral/Barian Worlds, while the only instance of the Human World damaging one of these realms was with Hart's powers which explicitly use Chaos. In addition, the part in which the Barian, Astral, Human Worlds were shown as parallel in Episode 142/II Episode 69, it was also explicitly stated the Barian and Human Worlds were still merged, and you can see that it is merged in that duel. Also, only the Astral/Barian Realms were merged at the Zexal finale, the Human World went unmerged and is still treated as generally inaccessible to humans compared to the other way around.

Duel Spirit World
Incidental Random Transcendental Planes
:
Mistva is stated be a transcendent entity of whom forces Emva, Hakva and Kaiva to clash to determine who will be his successor, with the winner becoming Mistva and the losers becoming Anva, who would be erased from existence. Mistva even exists in the Extra Deck as reference to existing, in a transcendental zone. The limiting factor here is that Mistva's showings are planetary. But you know, Anva is shattering reality in Ryu-Ge End.
The Lightsworn's Realm of Light is stated to be beyond space and time, have laws separate from the rest of time and space, and that if they ever fall their immortal souls will return to the Realm of Light.
Banishment/Different Dimension: I'm surprised I've literally never seen anyone making the case for this but, you could argue that the Banishment is in fact a bulkspace for the entirety of the Duel Spirit World. We can see that it connects multiple instances of timelines, such as Dai Grepher's two paths on the Paths of Destiny in Different Dimension Encounter, and universes, like how Trance Archfiend (Trans Archfiend in the OCG as reference to literally being transdimensional) intercepting Genex Ally Birdman who went through a Dimensional Fissure. There's also multiple instances of the Different Dimension having multiple swirling portals (some similar to the Yugioh backing) to different universes, other instances of the Banishment suggesting it contains the Duel Spirit Universes such as Chaos Zone or that the Master Guide 2 lore for Aliens directly states the Otherworld that the Aliens breed their cosmic entities in is "not considered part of the Duel World" and looks strikingly like the banishment.
You might be able to make a similar case for the general GY realms and even the hand (by really stretching Hecahands) as transcendental realms given how the ED is treated and the Banishment but ehhhhhhh.
REMEMBER THAT ONE TIME YUBEL SAID 12 DIMENSIONAL UNIVERSES: Only mentioning it, but probably not. You could make the case that they were referred to as "12 Dimensional Universes" which implies the possibility of 12 universes that comprise of 12 Spatial Dimensions, and how Yubel had to summon a monster of each level to conduct her Super Polymerization ritual, and how Zexal treats Rank Ups as ascensions (and Levels just being the non-Xyz equivalent to Ranks) but yeah no. Unless one of the anniversary GX sets changes things there's really no reason to buy this.
Ten Thousand Dragon: You can literally see the cardback spiral he's coming out from, the same spiral that the OCG Stories Anniversary animation had DM and DMG coming into to show the entirety of the OCG Stories world. He's stated to have created the OCG world, and exists in his own higher dimension from it. If you the banishment being a bulkspace for infinite multiverses which themselves can contain higher dimensions within them (not that high of a stretch given that something like Metaphys Executor, Regenesis Birth, Missing Barrows contain multiple universes within themselves), he'd be 7-D. He's also stated to just be a card, so I guess anyone that scales above it could be considered 8-D?
Db already had yugioh at bare minimum of 9d
 
Also... when we are talking about lores, maybe it's best not to try to translating the game mechanic into actual lore powers.

Mostly because it would give too many characters the ability they didnt demonstrated in their stories.
I don't think we'd argue that every effect that banishes would be scaled the same (or even applied the same), just on how the mechanics generally work or corner-cases.
For instance, something like banishing is usually treated as either dimensional BFR or soul erasure. Banishing face-down (depending on the scenario and as an attack) could be applicable as existence erasure that scrubs all identifying features and occasionally may have some level of atemporal fuckery (as seen by how Veda uses it, and how primordial beings that control space or time like Ogdoabyss, Avida, Tierra, or even Visas despite experience via Ariseheart etc are incapable of reversing the effects of banishment face-down.) that necessitates some sort of specialized resistance to counteract it depending on level of potency. And then these could be argued based off scale or scope or whatever. Something like Ghoti is probably dimensional BFRing/attacking with the force of multiple solar-systems while Exosisters are probably just exorcising street-tier demons and souls as a comparison. Zeus/Draconids sending to the GY are treated as basically destruction on a generally stellar-level, while Ogdoabyss given the lore is implied to return anything on field to the primordial waters of creation when sending to the GY, or it could be treated as BFR into a netherworld, etc. The new Ritual of Light and Darkness bosses are probably hitting really ******* hard when you consider they're using the powers of extradimensional Chaos, and even a Level 4 weaker version of BLS is capable of creating a universe (Beginning of Heaven and Earth).
 
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I don't think we'd argue that every effect that banishes would be scaled the same (or even applied the same), just on how the mechanics generally work or corner-cases.
For instance, something like banishing is usually treated as either dimensional BFR or soul erasure. Banishing face-down (depending on the scenario and as an attack) could be applicable as existence erasure that scrubs all identifying features and occasionally may have some level of atemporal fuckery (as seen by how Veda uses it, and how primordial beings that control space or time like Ogdoabyss, Avida, Tierra, or even Visas despite experience via Ariseheart etc are incapable of reversing the effects of banishment face-down.) that necessitates some sort of specialized resistance to counteract it depending on level of potency. And then these could be argued based off scale or scope or whatever. Something like Ghoti is probably dimensional BFRing/attacking with the force of multiple solar-systems while Exosisters are probably just exorcising street-tier demons and souls as a comparison. Zeus/Draconids sending to the GY are treated as basically destruction on a generally stellar-level, while Ogdoabyss given the lore is implied to return anything on field to the primordial waters of creation when sending to the GY, or it could be treated as BFR into a netherworld, etc. The new Ritual of Light and Darkness bosses are probably hitting really ******* hard when you consider they're using the powers of extradimensional Chaos, and even a Level 4 weaker version of BLS is capable of creating a universe (Beginning of Heaven and Earth).
What!?
 
I will be honest...
This doesnt sound like a safe argument on a CRT regardless of how much I want Aleister to become OP.
I dont even know if there are any CRT that tried to translate game mechanics of TCG into abilities so we could use as a reference.

But either way... I imagine you will have to gather evidences of the monsters consistently showing lore abilities matched their gameplay abilities. Which... given the short-and-summarized nature of Yugioh lores, it will be an extreme challenge
 
I will be honest...
This doesnt sound like a safe argument on a CRT regardless of how much I want Aleister to become OP.
I dont even know if there are any CRT that tried to translate game mechanics of TCG into abilities so we could use as a reference.

But either way... I imagine you will have to gather evidences of the monsters consistently showing lore abilities matched their gameplay abilities. Which... given the short-and-summarized nature of Yugioh lores, it will be an extreme challenge
Given the card art of Virakam coming out of some dude's body, his Invocation seems to just be able to use either souls and/or bodies of people, at best this could be used to argue that Aleister's magic can be used to say obliterate or transmutate the soul/body of something he's killed or whatever, which would track with the effect of Invocation.
 
Anyways, on a more serious note, has there been any work on making an Upgrade Thread? We could compile a list of known information and general arguments.

For Starters
Yugioh has made multiple mentions of containing an infinite multiverse, as collaborated by
DSOD Guidebook Statements "The scene around the beginning of the movie is an image of the multiverse theory, which says that there is an infinite number of universes other than the one we are in, and that there is another you in another universe, and that both these universes and you exist in an infinite number.”"
5Ds Manga Chapter 33 "To Duel is to catch limitless possibilities. In every single instant, a universe is created."
Zexal Manga Chapter 44 "The Astral World and our world float in an ocean of otherworlds."
Go Rush Episode 135, 139, 150 all discuss parallel universes and 150 has Otei absorb parallel universe counterparts of himself.
Similarly, there's also the Duel Spirit World, which is stated by the OCG Stories Manga "Sky Striker" and "Magistus" to contain "infinite" and "endless" worlds. These worlds also have multiple timelines, as seen by the different continuities both Striker, and Magistus and multiple other lore series have. This Duel Spirit World is also treated as the "backside" of the card compared to the Human World's front side.
There's also the argument to be made of multiple sets of infinite multiverses, such as why the Duel Spirit World has different iterations depending on the anime/manga, or why something like Zexal has an entirely different cosmology to DM-GX-5Ds. Duel Links also describes the connection of many multiverses.
So as a benchmark, both the Yugioh Human World and and Duel Spirit World would both be at minimum, 2-A.
2-A but would anyone scale to it? like maybe just holactie and darkness (subsequently judai/yubel and Atem) since holactie is the creator of light and darkness rivals light which created the multiverse. also the world of darkness exists between dimensions
Higher Dimensional Arguments
Duel Links
: Well this is literally just stated to connect the infinite multiverses and timelines of Yugioh, and is a literal bulkspace, so...
Prana/Afterlife: Both of these are treated as transcendant of Duel Links, with there being an infinite realm of darkness prior to Kaiba ascending into the Afterlife, which is explicitly stated to be "ascending to a higher-level of dimension".
the prana argument was one i wanted to make im just unsure how to do it since the prana and nether realm dont have any size statements we cant assume they're significant without any size statements or comparrisons
World of Speed: The DB Q&A stated that the World of Speed was stated to transcend space and time and contain its infinite possibilities. I couldn't find citations for this, but this is just a rough draft.
just seems like 2-A
Astral/Barian Realms: The Zexal Manga states that when the "human world connects to the Astral World, they'll reach a higher plane without suffering", a "higher dimension than the world we live in", "the souls of the people there exist on a higher plane than ours", and the Zexal anime, only those with a "Ranked-Up" soul can reach the Astral World. Similarly, the Barian Realm, the cast out form of the Astral World, is stated to be a "meta-energy world" alongside the Astral World in Duel Links and "worlds of high energy" in the anime "with no metaphysics". Rank-Ups also kinda make it blatant that they're treated as a direct superiority and Eliphas's whole shtick is about ascending to a higher plane of existence by "Ranking-Up".
The Barian Realm being the a cast-out version of the Astral Realm, that souls can potentially go to either the Barian Realm, or the Astral Realm if ascended, and the Barian Rank Ups only rank up by 1 rank while the Astral Rank Up ranks up by 2 does suggest a superiority to the Astral Realm compared to the Barian Realm which is superior to the Human World. Although admittedly, Zexal does also imply an equal nature between the Astral and Barian Worlds.
There is an argument that there are instances in which the Human World is implied to be treated as Parallel to the Astral/Barian Realms. We'd need a transcript to determine if the "parallel" is even accurate, but one could see that as either claiming the Astral World/Barian World are parallel to one another, or that the more science-oriented characters were mistaken, especially since initially, Dr. Faker was unable to find a way to access the Barian/Astral Realm prior to sacrificing his friends, and it is only through the usage of energies from the Astral or Barian Realm they're able to travel to said dimensions. Additionally, the Human Realm is treated as inferior, such as when the waves from the Barian/Astral Realm were able to stop time, and the war entirely focused around the Astral/Barian Worlds, while the only instance of the Human World damaging one of these realms was with Hart's powers which explicitly use Chaos. In addition, the part in which the Barian, Astral, Human Worlds were shown as parallel in Episode 142/II Episode 69, it was also explicitly stated the Barian and Human Worlds were still merged, and you can see that it is merged in that duel. Also, only the Astral/Barian Realms were merged at the Zexal finale, the Human World went unmerged and is still treated as generally inaccessible to humans compared to the other way around.
i might need to do more research on this
Duel Spirit World
Incidental Random Transcendental Planes
:
Mistva is stated be a transcendent entity of whom forces Emva, Hakva and Kaiva to clash to determine who will be his successor, with the winner becoming Mistva and the losers becoming Anva, who would be erased from existence. Mistva even exists in the Extra Deck as reference to existing, in a transcendental zone. The limiting factor here is that Mistva's showings are planetary. But you know, Anva is shattering reality in Ryu-Ge End.
The Lightsworn's Realm of Light is stated to be beyond space and time, have laws separate from the rest of time and space, and that if they ever fall their immortal souls will return to the Realm of Light.
i mean the beyond space and time part seems like the only good evidence here but only for like BDE1
Banishment/Different Dimension: I'm surprised I've literally never seen anyone making the case for this but, you could argue that the Banishment is in fact a bulkspace for the entirety of the Duel Spirit World. We can see that it connects multiple instances of timelines, such as Dai Grepher's two paths on the Paths of Destiny in Different Dimension Encounter, and universes, like how Trance Archfiend (Trans Archfiend in the OCG as reference to literally being transdimensional) intercepting Genex Ally Birdman who went through a Dimensional Fissure. There's also multiple instances of the Different Dimension having multiple swirling portals (some similar to the Yugioh backing) to different universes, other instances of the Banishment suggesting it contains the Duel Spirit Universes such as Chaos Zone or that the Master Guide 2 lore for Aliens directly states the Otherworld that the Aliens breed their cosmic entities in is "not considered part of the Duel World" and looks strikingly like the banishment.
You might be able to make a similar case for the general GY realms and even the hand (by really stretching Hecahands) as transcendental realms given how the ED is treated and the Banishment but ehhhhhhh.
might need to do some research on this... though banishment zone i already though was another dimension i just need to know it's properties inverse
REMEMBER THAT ONE TIME YUBEL SAID 12 DIMENSIONAL UNIVERSES: Only mentioning it, but probably not. You could make the case that they were referred to as "12 Dimensional Universes" which implies the possibility of 12 universes that comprise of 12 Spatial Dimensions, and how Yubel had to summon a monster of each level to conduct her Super Polymerization ritual, and how Zexal treats Rank Ups as ascensions (and Levels just being the non-Xyz equivalent to Ranks) but yeah no. Unless one of the anniversary GX sets changes things there's really no reason to buy this.
the problem here is that yubel explicitly says the 12 dimensions are parallel universes 💔 there goes my judai wank
Ten Thousand Dragon: You can literally see the cardback spiral he's coming out from, the same spiral that the OCG Stories Anniversary animation had DM and DMG coming into to show the entirety of the OCG Stories world. He's stated to have created the OCG world, and exists in his own higher dimension from it. If you the banishment being a bulkspace for infinite multiverses which themselves can contain higher dimensions within them (not that high of a stretch given that something like Metaphys Executor, Regenesis Birth, Missing Barrows contain multiple universes within themselves), he'd be 7-D. He's also stated to just be a card, so I guess anyone that scales above it could be considered 8-D?
apparantly it runs on superstring theory which is compactified so maybe just HDE would be fine
 
https://********.org/title/9a7110a4-3610-4646-bbe5-716e2d0a0082/transcend-game-yu-gi-oh
The Manga Transcend Game kinda blatantly makes the dimension scaling obvious, the intent of Duel Links is to ascend a higher dimensional plane, and Kaiba describes the Plana as a "place of infinite darkness", and we know from the Duel Links screencaps that it was intended to unite the entire multiverses of Yugioh (a bulkspace for sets of infinite multiverses.)

For the Astral World/Barian World, we know they're called "isekai" in the anime, which isn't of itself damning, especially given other statements treating it as a higher plane of reality, but I'm wondering if the raws of the Zexal manga refer to it as a dimension. I can't seem to find the Japanese raws for it, but if it's referred to "jigen", given its similarity to the anime counterpart, and the similar "ascending souls/minds to a higher dimension" that would help build an even stronger case for the Astral World/Barian World being a higher dimension, although I doubt we could argue that the Astral World dimensionally transcends the Barian World (for 6-D).

As it stands for the World of Speed, we'd probably need to find direct quotations of it transcending space and time, and any more statements to build up a case for being a higher dimension, since thus far we're just using the two quotes from the DB Q&A.

The Banishment/Different Dimension is currently just conjecture, we don't have any direct statements of it being a bulkspace, but we could build up a case for it being treated/implied as such, like multiple cards associating the banishment with portals, and connecting different universes and timelines together.
 

Also, is this not Tachyon Dragon travelling from the past into the present? It has Tachyon Dragon seemingly travelling through space/galaxies which would already be at least billions of times FTL, but look at the way the summon chants are worded and how it presents itself.
"Roar that pierces the universe! Travel back from distant times, and resurrect from the source of the galaxies! Manifest yourself, and lead me to victory! Numbers 107! Galaxy-Eyes Tachyon Dragon!""
and it's upgraded summon chant
"Pierce through the raging torrent of galaxies, and revive from before the birth of time! The draconic star that surpasses eternity! Manifest before us, Chaos Numbers 107! Neo Galaxy-Eyes Tachyon Dragon!"
It refers to itself as "traveling back from distant times and resurrect from the source of galaxies", or "reviving from before the birth of time itself", the scene presents itself as with a backdrop to an explosion and then some sort of mass acceleration as galaxies distort as the camera approaches the center. Tachyon Dragon is also directly associated with the Numeron Dragon/Numeron Code that created the universe, it implies that instead of just travelling through space, it's travelling through time towards the present.
 
A little off-topic, but I recently learned of the passing of a Yu-Gi-Oh! Youtuber, Alex Cimo. Learned of him via his collabs, where he'd show Yu-Gi-Oh! cards, archetypes even, to players of other card games & explain the archetypes. Even got them to play Yu-Gi-Oh! sometimes. He also sometimes did collabs where the roles would be reversed, & he'd learn about other card games like Magic: The Gathering & Hearthstone from skilled Youtuber players of those games.

Apparently, the info about his passing was learned via Linked In &/or a Facebook post from his mother; I'd been keeping up with his Youtube community posts, as he'd been recovering from therapy for cancer.

I find it tragic to learn of this.

Again, apologies if too off-topic or folks mind me bringing this up.
 
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