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General DC Comics Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Confluctor
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- dc comics
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Yes. Extreme fourth wall awareness is perfectly fine for him.
Sorry bothering you
I have edited almost the whole words in this thread, input my thread please
Superman's Plot Manipulation Revision DC Comic
Plot Manipulation Superman Revision Superman is already accepted to have plot manipulation here : https://www.vsbattles.com/threads/plot-manipulation-for-superboy-prime-dc-comics.191207/ But the wording in Superman's profile need to be revised because it can be misunderstood as Immortality...
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I wouldn't say it's a major point of disagreement.
In your revised profile draft of Perpetua, you stated that her descended state created the Multiverse, including the Sixth Dimension. However, it is not clearly stated that Perpetua created the Sixth Dimension itself; rather, she created within it, so we cannot assume she originated it. Additionally, the claim that she created the Multiverse in a descended state is questionable. It is more consistent to interpret her true state as the form in which she created the Multiverse, since beings like her generate Multiverses from outside Creation, within the Void. The physical form she took (The weird alien-looking woman) after the Multiverse and her children were made would then represent her descended state, corresponding to her presence within the Multiverse, before she was imprisoned in the Source Wall by the Cosmic Raptor (Moreover, the image that should represent its true state would be the Hand of Creation). This would also align with how her children weaken across lower planes relative to sixth-dimensional existence. Her descended state, should focus on her time preparing to accumulate power and build her Apex Predators to wage war against her kind, and on the fact that she is superior to her diminished states, and also that, through Crisis Energy, she has perverted her Multiverse into a predatory reality aligned with Crisis Energy and which will endure forever.
Also. I know we’ve already gone over this and I'm sorry to repeat myself, but I disagree with the claim that Superboy-Prime, in a state of rage, nearly killed or defeated the Darkest Knight. For Superboy-Prime and The Darkest Knight, the fight doesn’t clearly show full intent from TDK. He repeatedly tries to recruit Superboy-Prime and suggests he doesn’t want to waste energy killing him, which points to restraint or non-lethal intent. Because of that, we can’t reliably scale the encounter as Superboy-Prime overpowering or nearly killing a fully serious Darkest Knight. The more accurate takeaway is simply that Superboy-Prime can meaningfully contend and affect the Darkest Knight whose seriousness or real intentions during this fight was questionable, not a decisive near-death scenario. Furthermore, The Darkest Knight should have two keys: one for his Batmanhattan Form, and another for his Crisis Energy Empowerment, as the power gap between the two is considerable. One (Batmanhattan) was powerful enough for Perpetua to feel a disturbance and he interacted with the Speed Force and exerted pressure on it, but was not yet powerful enough to kill Perpetua, while the other (Crisis Energy) was relative to, or slightly superior to, Perpetua (Post-Death Metal) and re-imprisoned her with the remaining of the shattered Source Wall.
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Sounds reasonable.
For Superboy’s fight with TDK I have an extensive explanation in the notes section. There are merits to both sides of the argument. Ultimately it can be said that:
“In the end due to the circumstances around the fight, what is portrayed, and the nature of each character, it is clear that The Darkest Knight and Superboy Prime are comparable in some way but it cannot be definitively stated with 100% accuracy if Superboy Prime is superior to The Darkest Knight, if The Darkest Knight is superior to Superboy Prime, or Superboy Prime and The Darkest Knight are equal, just that they are operating at the same range of power. Overall it is clear that neither character is in a transcendent position over the other no matter how one interprets it.”
As for receiving two keys as the TDK, that is really not necessary. Just a “higher with Crisis energy” section on his existing TDK key.
For Perpetua, I will look further into it just to be sure of things. There are merits to both interpretations of this as well and unfortunately it is an even more nebulous issue. Though it can definitively be said that the Sixth Dimension is a part of, as the highest layer, the Divine Continuum being one of the three governing layers of creation with the others being the Fifth and Fourth Dimensions.
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You can mention that an enraged Superboy-Prime managed to meaningfully contend and affect the Darkest Knight whose seriousness or true intentions during their encounter was questionable due to the way TDK behaved during the fight and his statements that he did not want to waste energy killing him, or his almost constant intention to recruit Prime rather than any real and apparent intentions of annihilation. Honestly, this doesn't change much from what you've already proposed. It's simply a more cautious approach, because we can't be certain of anything. I agree about the key of the Darkest Knight being unnecessary, and what about what i have proposed for Perpetua’s descended state?
The Sixth Dimension is definitely within the Divine Continuum as its apex layer.
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I think that you bring up some good points about Perpetua so I am figuring out how to formulate what you have stated with what I have.
From what I have read of the Hands in their limited appearances, it is clear that they are entirely transcendent to their creations to an entirely unreachable degree. I think it is most accurate to say that, while they are in their true state as a Hand of the Source, they gather the necessary components from the Source to make a Creation. They then descend and use those components (consisting of Crisis and Anti Crisis Energies making up the Harmonious and Hidden Forces) and fashion them into a Creation. It is clear that there is a standard template / model that the Hands are supposed to follow when making a Creation that ultimately culminates in their death when they are finished. It also seems through unknown means, perhaps by staying in the Greater Omniverse and not making a Creation or maybe due to exceptional performance, that a Hand can achieve other purposes or higher objectives such as being a judge of the Source and likely many other positions in the unseen hierarchy.
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After creating a Multiverse, a Hand's function is fulfilled, and then it dies. However, Hands do not die a conventional ways like lesser beings; they return to The Source. However, they can also choose not to return to The Source after fulfilling their duties, as we saw with Perpetua. They still transcends their Multiverses entirely, it's just a matter of natural function. I would say that the True State is the Hand of Creation that used The Source’s Energies/Connective Energy shaped them into the Multiverse, initiating the Big Bang in the process, while her descended state would corresponds to her within her Multiverse.
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Another matter, what do you think Grant Morrison meant when he said that Comic Book Limbo is the furthest edges of the manifest DC Universe ? Does he mean that this is the last bastion of stories and continuities, or it's just Morrison contradicting himself ? It's clearly part of the Divine Continuum, much like the Monitor Sphere and the Sixth Dimension.
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Comic Book Limbo is part of the main DC multiverse map, as such, it is below the governing layers.
Eventually I will get around to making a separate key for Grant Morrison's interpretation of the Monitors as the more recent versions have irreconcilable differences with Grant Morrison's version. I am against separation by author interpretation as any perceived differences can almost always be rectified (and this has resulted in unnecessary stuff in the past such as the unneeded J.M. DeMatteis separation); however, the disparity between Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder's versions are so immense that it is not possible to combine them. The Monitors according to Grant Morrison were made and sent directly by the Overvoid itself to "monitor" the Flaw. The Flaw is literally all of DC Comics. In Grant Morrison's view there is absolutely nothing else in the Overvoid besides the Flaw which makes his version of the Monitors obscenely powerful. None of this actually causes any contradictions with any other characters as his Monitors only appear in Superman Beyond and are only referenced by him a few times. Mar Novu and the infinite lesser Monitors he was splintered into can be interpreted as merely being an echo of this first primordial story with its themes and motifs appearing throughout creation manifesting in Mar Novu.
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Scott Snyder altered some aspects of Morrison’s work, but he also clearly paid close attention to it. Regarding the Monitors, Snyder drew from their depiction in Countdown, where they are presented as aspects of the Prime Monitor. Meanwhile, Final Crisis portrays them more as “angels” of the Overvoid. These two interpretations are not necessarily contradictory and can be reconciled as different descriptive layers of the same truth.
The Multiversity further develops this by describing the Monitor and Anti-Monitor as originating from the Overvoid. Snyder later reuses a similar concept, though with a key reinterpretation: instead of a purely emanative origin, he attributes their manifestation to Perpetua, who “rends them from the Overvoid into flesh.” This reframes the same underlying emergence as an act of imposed creation rather than passive unfolding.
Additionally, in Final Crisis, the Monitors are shown to possess their own beliefs and mythological understanding of their origins. However, their conception of the “true Overvoid” and their origin point could be understood as Mar Novu, the Prime Monitor, who is a living part of the Overvoid itself. This interpretation allows Countdown and Snyder’s usage to align with Morrison’s broader ambiguity regarding layered perception and incomplete cosmological knowledge.
Regarding The Flaw, it would be more coherent to interpret it as relating to the Divine Continuum rather than the entirety of the Greater Omniverse. The Chronicler recognizes the Multiverse he encounters as distinct from others he has observed throughout the Greater Omniverse, specifically because of its narrative structure, what he describes as “cosmic fairy tales.” Life within individual Multiverses is generally meant to follow its natural course until eventual termination, but this particular Multiverse is different in that it contains heroes, villains, lovers, and haters, making it fundamentally more narratively expressive and self-reflective. The Hands themselves were also shocked by the Multiverse. In this sense, The Flaw is better understood as a property of narrative differentiation within the Divine Continuum.
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My question was more to know what Morrison meant by furthest edges of the manifest DC Universe. Certainly no observable reality in the literal sense, because some realms or structures within the Divine Continuum, such as Hypertime, are an abstraction and the Sphere of the Gods is metaphysical. Maybe it means that Comic Book Limbo is the last boundary where fiction is still being actively told before it dissolves into unused, forgotten, or abandoned narrative material. Thus, all transcendent realms and ruling strata of the Divine Continuum are beyond local fictions/continuity (those contained within the manifest Divine Continuum, not fictions as a whole ! 
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In terms of how it relates to the modern rendition of DC comics, Comic Book Limbo is one of the many higher realms but is not of the governing layers. So it is regulated to lesser versions of the story as contained in the Divine Continuum. Even in Morrison cosmology things like the Fifth Dimension are treated as a higher level in relation to Comic Book Limbo with the Gentry coming from outside of the normal DC multiverse. Comic Book Limbo is one of the underutilized parts of the Cosmology and it is unlikely that this will change any time soon.
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Yeah it would be reasonable. To remain true to Morrison’s attempt, we can say that what he meant by Manifest DC Universe is that it is where fiction is still being actively told before it dissolves into unused, forgotten, or abandoned materials. This could explain why matter and memory break down there.
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What do you think of the updated profile for Superboy Prime, I have made a number of changes:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:PromptedElephant641/Revised_Superboy_Prime_Profile - This is the normal one without any of the stuff from Confluctor's version.
ptedElephant641/Confluctor%27s_Superboy_Prime_from_All_Fiction_Battles - This one has the powers and abilities from Confluctor's version added to it.
I don't think that any of Confluctor's justifications for durability, stamina, speed, and range need to be added as they are very clunky and excessive. So I think that what I have there is enough. I also disagree with a number of his justifications. I reformatted and consolidated his powers and abilities.
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Yeah its coolYes. Extreme fourth wall awareness is perfectly fine for him.
Manchaster Black absorb prime's power and pulled him out of comic page to the Dan Mora's unfinished page.
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Isn't this under Blacks normal powers? He's not drawing from Prime hereYeah its cool
Manchaster Black absorb prime's power and pulled him out of comic page to the Dan Mora's unfinished page.
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Black said he got new toys for his own power after get into prime's mind. He's never meta before isnt he?
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Unlocked some new toys WITH MY OWN POWER
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Okay, as far as i remember he's not meta before. But btw is that overvoid?
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Straight up anti feat if it is Overvoid
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No the overvoid is a blankness
This is more so the storyboard as you can see other things too
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It is not a feat, merely a new capability. One that he unlocked through access to Prime’s mind. Overall this does not really add anything. Perhaps some sort of fourth wall awareness for Manchester Black. Merely modifying a comic panel is generally not nearly enough evidence for more extreme abilities like plot manipulation.
Hopefully, somehow in the Superboy Prime arc, he will meet up with golden age Superman again. I am usually not a fan of bringing back dead characters, but I would not be opposed to some sort of limited appearance from either him or Alexander Luthor Junior.
Hopefully, somehow in the Superboy Prime arc, he will meet up with golden age Superman again. I am usually not a fan of bringing back dead characters, but I would not be opposed to some sort of limited appearance from either him or Alexander Luthor Junior.
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Not necessarily The Overvoid. Comics like Animal Man or Infinite Frontier: Secret Files #6 presented a metafictional white emptiness behind reality, where unfold the continuous process of creation, destruction, and rebirth. This could be the same "void" which, according to the Animal Man series, is a manifestation of the vast void (probably the Overvoid). It is in this void that meta characters such as Animal Man or Superboy-Prime venture instead of the full Overvoid.
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I think it looks good; it's less verbose than the previous version. As for the fight between Superboy-Prime and The Darkest Knight, you should mention directly in the Attack Potency section that Prime managed to contend and affect in a meaningful way The Darkest Knight whose seriousness or real intentions during this fight was unclear. We cannot say with certainty that The Darkest Knight was entirely serious or that he lost fairly. Nothing is certain.
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Yeah. This void is not even a particular place (for example comic book limbo) or any other place that we have seen in previous comics. It is merely a random white void in which a comic panel is contained. In fact it may not even be a real place at all and is likely to actually be inside of Superboy Prime’s mind.
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That is all contained in the note corresponding to that particular feat (Note 1). There is a substantial paragraph explaining all of the potential positions concluding that nothing definitive can be determined.
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Yes, I know. I was simply saying that you could have mentioned in the AP that he had defeated a questionably serious TDK, and your note would explain it in more detail.
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Based on what you have suggested, i propose this:
Perpetua
Tier: High 1-A | High 1-A, higher with Crisis Energy | High 1-A, higher with Preparation | At least High 1-A
Keys: Diminished State (Weakened) | Diminished State (Post Year of the Villain/Death Metal) | Descended Creator (Pre-Diminishment) | True State (Hand of the Source)
Attack Potency: High Outerverse level (Even in a weakened state, Perpetua vastly surpassed her three children individually, and dismissed the World Forger’s attempt to rewrite all existence from the Sixth Dimension as merely the actions of a fearful child. The technologies she had created to stabilize Hypertime were later used by Brainiac to bottle countless possible futures of Earth-0, with Hypertime being within her grasp during this period. Was capable of battling the Ultra-Monitor) High Outerverse level, higher with Crisis Energy (Recovered significantly more of her original power and reasserted control over the Multiverse. Her influence extended into the Sixth Dimension through the Crisis-aligned energies of The Totality, including forces such as the Anti-Life Equation, Chaos Magic, the Still Force, and the Ultraviolet Spectrum, which she used to fuel her power and systematically destroy and reshape creation. During this process, Hypertime and the Speed Force suffered severe collateral damage. Her battle with the Darkest Knight raged across all facets of reality and threatened to collapse the already dying Multiverse and the Bleed) High Outerverse level (Represents the apex of her descended existence prior to her imprisonment. Spent hundreds of thousands of years designing Apex Predators and accumulating the power necessary to wage war against her kind. In the process, she transformed her Multiverse into a predatory reality using Crisis Energy, perverting creation into a structure intended to perpetuate conflict eternally and consolidate her influence) At least High Outerverse level (As the Hand of Creation which Krona witnessed at the Dawn of Time, Perpetua is directly involved in the formation of the Multiverse, shaping its structure through the energies of The Totality conferred upon her by The Source, initiating the Big Bang in the process which gave rise to many fundamental aspects of existence, such as the Endless. Exists beyond and completely transcends the Divine Continuum as one of the Hands of the Source operating through The Void)
The Darkest Knight
Tier: High 1-A, higher with Crisis Energy
Attack Potency: High Outerverse level (Obtained the body of the Final Bruce Wayne, who possessed powers similar to those of Doctor Manhattan, whose existence was perceived by Perpetua as a significant disturbance. During his pursuit of the Speedsters, he was capable of interacting with and exerting pressure upon the Speed Force itself, exploiting fractures within its already damaged structure in order to corrupt its users), higher with Crisis Energy (Ascended into the ultimate dark god of the Multiverse, whose very existence caused the Multiverse to tremble, echoed across all realities, and even caused the lights of Hypertime to fade. Comparable to, if not slightly superior to, Post-Death Metal Perpetua, whom he was able to battle and affect across every facet of reality in a conflict that threatened the collapse of the already dying Multiverse and the Bleed itself. Superior to the Anti-Crisis empowered Wonder Woman, whom he fought across the Timestream, only being defeated after she struck him with the Hand of Creation at the Dawn of Time, generating a surge of Anti-Crisis Energy that restored the Multiverse’s connectivity, greatly empowering her while weakening his Crisis Energy)
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It's a manifestation of the vast absence and it lies behind reality. It was used by Animal Man to traverse Comic Book Limbo and by Psycho-Pirate to watch reality from outside, though Darkseid still managed to reach him from Earth-Omega.
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Okay about void but its not inside Superboy Prime's mind, Because it has a Dan Mora's activity note there and Witchfire is confused when Prime got dragged and ripped the page. He's come to the real world (im not saying they are here with us).
I think about overvoid because, Grant Morrison said that the Overvoid and Monitor Sphere are the furthest places from DC fiction and close to the boundary between fiction and reality, where Superman in the Monitor Sphere can feel the reader in real life and the Overvoid is further away from the Monitor Sphere.
But hecky is right if it is overvoid it will be an anti feat, it should be higher (Dan Mora's Paper in real world)
Im not saying they are in real world with us, it's just meta joke type of story
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Superboy-Prime's feat against the Darkest Knight still counts, as he faced him in a state of rage, and we cannot definitively say whether the Darkest Knight was serious or not during that fight. A victory for Superboy-Prime against a fully serious Darkest Knight would be inconsistent, because if that were the case, it would mean that Superboy-Prime could also have killed Perpetua by default, which is not what Death Metal showed, since the goal was to find the Crisis Energy to kill her and restart the Multiverse. Only a certain number of cosmic entities and some fundamental aspects/forces of existence should be High 1-A.So what have you decided to do here, Elizio? I am worried that our scaling is getting exaggerated to ridiculous degrees.
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That makes sense. I was just unsure if there was a definitive place in the cosmology that we could put that particular void.
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Hmm I was thinking to add it into the section of "The Subtle Realms and Liminal Structures" in the cosmology.
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That looks good.
I would say for TDK and his fight with Wonder Woman: At the beginning of Death Metal #7 She states that she can feel that he is stronger at first, then later when she gathers strength from her allies' courage and resilience, she gains more power increasing the potency of her Anti-Crisis Energy allowing her to defeat TDK by forcing him into the Death Son.
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Yeah, but it was after she struck the Darkest Knight with the Hand of Creation that it generated a surge of power for her and her allies.
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I misremembered the chronology of events, but I checked and that is what happened so that works.
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No, Prime and black is more fourth wall with Dan Mora's to do list written in Espanol and a DC Comics Border with Handwriting of Page Number, issue, and a drawing sketch.
Animal Man or Infinite Frontier dont have this fourth wall element and just a pure blank white without DC Border and number of page or author's note.
