TenSura LN Revision — Essence of Wank [ONE MORE STAFF NEEDED; 2:0:0]

[Astral_Trinity439]

Introduction​

Hello everyone. Hope ya'll are doing well. This time I wanted to add a few differentiations rather than bringing something new. It would be:

• Division of Conceptual and Information aspect

As always, avoid derailing and any form of toxicity.

Table of Contents​

The On-going Disaster
So at the moment, we're treating Heart Core and Information as the "Conceptual Self". This is mainly my fault due to this thread, since at the time I did not know tensura as much, did not have access to the raws and because new information from newer volumes came out later.

But now we have enough information to distinguish Conceptual and Info Type 2 aspect. This CRT will mainly be divided into three parts:

1. What even is the "Conceptual Self"
2. Soul = "Conceptual Self/Thought Body"
3. Why Soul is Conceptual

Before we go further, please read this:

General Concepts in Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken (Light Novel)

This is to ensure and provide context to whatever ability exist in slime which rather seems questionable, with adequate explanation on the idea of whatever ability exist on some profiles of Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken, they are also additional explanations on other abilities such as ultimate...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Now let's begin:

Conceptual Self
Well, believe it or not, the "Conceptual Self" thing is literally a mistranslation. The actual word is "Idea Body" or "Thought Body".

"That’s right. Well, there is no need to worry. It is not an actual battle, but merely a mock battle. Besides, even if the thought body is shattered, it is not as though one would die, correct?"
Translation Source (DMs)
Veldora's Journal Volume 3

So there goes this nonexistent thing. Now:

Soul: Body of Thought
We already know that normal Spiritual Lifeforms can regenerate their Physical and Spiritual bodies as long as their Astral Body remains. However, even if all their magicules (astral body) dissipate in the physical world, they will eventually resurrect. For normal Elementals, if the Soul is destroyed, resurrection is not possible.

Now, for such beings, having their Conceptual Self/Thought Body destroyed is the same as "Death", yet it is not the same for Veldora, as he can regenerate perfectly fine even if his Soul is destroyed, as long as his Heart Core remains.

However, "Death" for Veldora (who wouldn't die even with the destruction of their "Conceptual Self" (Thought Body)) is destruction of the Heart Core, after which he revives instead of regenerating. It is the True Dragons' oblivion and demise as they no longer remain the same person.

This means that one's Soul is their Thought Body.

Conceptual Soul
Now, let's get into the main topic, with spices.

The basic stuff is, the Soul is the true essence/quality of someone. This is stated multiple times.

Even so…, Chloe pondered. She had thought that a person’s essence is shown in the state of the soul. Even so, what about Rimuru? Even though his soul had clearly disappeared, he was calmly continuing to act.
V23C4
Translation Source (DMs)

Whether suppression was possible or impossible. That alone was important. Shion left aside the swirling emotions as they were, and accepted them as they were. Just as Rimuru had said, Shion put it into practice. No matter how unreasonable and difficult an idealistic theory it might be, honestly and simply with stubborn straightforwardness. As a result, Shion had become able to intuit the true essence of things through the soul. Even in the battle against Dagruel, Shion’s intuition had manifested itself.
V21C1
Translation Source (DMs)

And that is Veldanava's "design philosophy/concept"

It was at the moment Velzard thought that. Astonishingly, Rimuru calmly got back up. An existence that moves by the ego/self alone, without a soul. Such a thing greatly deviated from Veldanava’s design philosophy. Impossible that was Velzard’s true feeling. And Rimuru declared that he himself would deal with Veldanava.
V23C4
Translation Source (DMs)

It is also the "Essence" of a True Dragon, beings that are literally concepts.

Guy, being well practiced at it, broke through Velzard’s multilayered mental barriers and dived toward the abyss of the soul, which was the essence of the Dragon Species.
V23C1
Translation Source (DMs)

Everything that isn't inanimate has a Soul. Be that plants, humans, monsters, etc. Normally inanimate things such as skills also have an essence.

It was precisely because the true essence of skills was something born from human desires that such a phenomenon ended up occurring.
V23C4
Translation Source (DMs)

As for truly inanimate things like the terrain itself, space, time, earth, fire, water, etc., they have spirits governing them, spirits have souls, so they have essence too.


The complicated stuff is, the Soul is where one's Attributes, or more commonly understood as their Factor/Element/Aspect (因子), are engraved. This is shown by:

• A Factor defines a being's existence. For example, there can't be any monsters without suitable Monster Factors.
• If you take away one's Factor, their existence cannot maintain itself and they disappear.
• Factors reside in the Soul, but they aren't the Soul itself, nor the Heart Core. They are therefore not Physical.
• True Dragons also have Factors, despite each one of them being their own Concept.
• It makes up beings, makes them what they are. X embodies the factor it has.
• If you, for example, take someone's factor, you can become the same type of being as that person.
• Factors can force change on matter and objects (physical or non-physical) in reality under their influence.

So Factors, and consequently the Soul that houses those Factors, are conceptual in nature.

Spoiler: Scans

Factors determine your existential limits:

Ordinary demons have limits, and no matter how long lived they are, they are only at the level of an Upper Majin class (Arch Demon). It seems that, in order to become an existence that surpasses that, some kind of factor is necessary, but… For Diablo, the name I gave him was that.
V6C5
Translation Source

Beings of X species are born from factors of X species. Keep in mind "dragon species" are true dragons and "dragon race" is normal dragons. Different things entirely:

To begin with, the dragons (Dragon race) of this world are nothing more than monsters born possessing degraded factors of my elder brother, the Star King Dragon Veldanava, who is the strongest dragon species.
V7C3
Translation Source

When thinking about it together with the story I heard earlier from Eren, it seems that the Elemental Dragon died and became a Chaos Dragon. At that time, dragon factors were probably scattered/spread around. Even now, it seems that Lesser Dragons are born from pools of magicules, and if the factors of the Elemental Dragon appear strongly, they become Upper Dragons (Arch Dragons).
V7C3
Translation Source

X embodies an enhanced form of its factor. Without a factor, said species cannot come into existence.

It had been revealed through recent research that specific conditions are necessary for monsters to come into existence. No matter how densely the inside of a cultivation capsule is filled with magicules, monsters will not come into existence. However, if some kind of factor is introduced, then monsters embodying a strengthened form of that factor will be born.
V11C2
Translation Source

Factors reside in the Soul.

(An accident? No way… Are you saying he was merely born there by chance!?)

Sinking into the sea of thought, Velgrynd arrived at that shocking answer. However, she could not accept it so easily. That was only natural. Because there was no way such a coincidence could happen that a monster born by chance near a Dragon Species would be born possessing a soul compatible with the dragon factors.

If he truly were the fifth born Dragon Species, then he would be an existence that could even be called a younger brother. However, Rimuru devoured Veldora and evolved into a Dragon Species. To call such an existence a Dragon Species was something Velgrynd could not accept. So to speak, he was something resembling a Dragon Species.
V15C2
Translation Source

I had forgotten. To begin with, this so called Dragon Factor was the key.

"If it is the Dragon Factor, Master has also acquired it."

Ah, right, I had also become, at least technically, an existence somewhat like a Dragon Species. So it would not be strange for me to possess the Dragon Factor.
Putting that aside. Even if the Dragon Factors were gathered from the three Dragon Species Velzard, Velgrynd, and Veldora I think it would be meaningless if the most important factor, Veldanava’s factor, were missing. If the soul is different, then it is a different person, after all.

Though according to Diablo, apparently it is not entirely impossible.

"Hah? That logic is ridiculous. Even if you could reproduce it that way, it would only be a pseudo body. You might be able to imitate the authority/power, but it would have nothing to do with the essential soul, wouldn’t it?"

Guy, who apparently shared the same opinion as me, interjected.
V18C1
Translation Source (DMs)

Factors are not the same as powers or authorities (Skills/abilities etc.)

Additionally, I also had an idea about the reason why Michael expelled Velgrynd from this world.

"And it’s not only power and factors that are taken, but authority as well. If that happens, the absolute domination over the angelic system would disappear too, so if one does not act carefully, a counterattack would likely be suffered."

Therefore, Michael would probably intend to thoroughly use up Velzard, weaken her, then take her power and expel her.
V18C1
Translation Source (DMs)

Having your Factor taken away means you cease existing. This would be akin to "taking away the definition of a rock means "rock" no longer exists)

(I was careless. Thinking that she would disappear anyway, I recovered the authority, but as a result even the control circuit disappeared as well. Even though I banished her beyond time and space so that she would not become an enemy even if she revived, doesn’t this mean I merely ended up increasing the number of troublesome enemies…?)

At that time, Velgrynd had lost most of her power. On top of that, because even the Dragon Factor had been taken from her, she was on the verge of disappearing. Therefore Michael recovered Lord of Charity (Raguel), but there was no way he could have predicted that this would lead to the destruction of Cornu.
V18C2
Translation Source (DMs)

"Velgrynd, whose Dragon Factor was stolen, had become unable to maintain her existence, and her disappearance was certain even without being subjected to Space Time Transfer. Since Master released the main body before she vanished, I presume that all of the energy was reintegrated."

I see, I see. Then why go so far as to imitate/perform something like banishment?

"Most likely, it was because he feared her revival. Even after stealing the Dragon Factor, he probably could not destroy the soul or the heart core. Therefore, perhaps he was trying to prevent himself from being revenged upon by the revived Velgrynd."
V18C1
Translation Source (DMs)

Factors make up what X is.

In other words, if there were someone harboring fragments of the factors that had composed Lucia, then he intended to mercilessly erase them and recover the information particles.
V23C4
Translation Source (DMs)

As for Type of Concept... that would be Type 1. Souls are the essence of everything, whether true dragons, spirits, humans, monsters, whatever. Because all vessels of the Soul can ultimately be traced back to the Primordial God Luminous Twilight Valentine, with all species ultimately deriving from spiritual immortal beings to less spiritual, and more physical mortal beings, but their essence remains the same.

Additionally, the Soul is also independent of the body and everything that comes before it:

Independency of the Soul
The Soul is not dependent on the world nor on lower aspects of being.

Firstly, even if the Physical, Spiritual and Astral body are destroyed, as long as the Soul remains, the rest can be regenerated. This by itself means the Soul is, in itself, a unique aspect untied to the outer layers. It governs and/or controls the lower layers, but it does not depend on them.

Additionally, a Spiritual lifeform can survive even in the boundary between worlds. As a Soul is part of that spiritual being, it proves that the Soul is not at all bound to the world.

Additional Arguments
Credits to @Deonment for this argument. Gotten from here and here (also credits to @AlexSamDen who has Leonment in his basement held hostage to suggest that argument)
So ultimately everything (except True Dragons) can be traced back to the Primordial God, who created Life. However, we also know that said "Life" was created by using the fragments split off from the Great Spirits as a base.

The Great Spirits are conceptual, and they have existed since before concepts such as time and space by extension of Primordial Angels, derived from them, existing before these concepts.

Thus, the Soul of all beings would, in this way, be type 1 concepts.

---

This one is from @The_golden_and_silver_house94, credits to them :d

So basically, the Soul is unique, in that there can only be one of it for X across space-time. If two souls were to ever overlap inside the same space-time continuity, one of them would be sent to another timeline. This already has some bases in our cosmology page too.

---

Note: This CRT is simply to establish that Heart Core =/=Concept, and that Soul = Concept instead. However, it does not introduce changes to the page except editing the mentions of "Conceptual Self" accordingly. The CRT right after this one will be the one where we make introduce a new page for bodily and fundamental aspects.

TL;DR
So in summary:

1. Heart Core is not the "Conceptual Self".
2. The whole "Conceptual Self" itself is a mistranslation, the actual term is Thought Body.
3. The Soul is the Essence of the person and shows someone's true nature.
4. All things in existence have an essence as everything directly or indirectly has a soul. Plants, Human, Monsters and intelligent things have a soul directly. Inanimate things also have essence, even things like rocks, space, time, etc., as they have a spirit governing them, with spirits also having souls (essence).
5. Thus the Soul is conceptual, specifically Type 1.

Votes​

Agree:
RaikiKurohane99 Elizhaa, SomebodyData

@Deonment (Agrees with mostly everything, thinks factors can be either info or concept, but leans towards them being conceptual), @Ultimuru @Nonynho @Shiraito983 @Ferno1234 @Mbpoops @Incomprehensibleexistence @MSahla @69Momo69 @Maniaunavailable @Community_Gamer @AlexSamDen @Mizuki67 @MetaChronos @Robo432343 @Hecky2222 @Luminous_Twighlight_Valentine_Simp

Disagree:

Neutral:
________________________________________________________
That's all~
Hope you enjoyed reading!

Thanks to all who helped me with this off-site and on-site through discussion and suggestion :d

 

[Ultimuru]

I checked infinite amount of alternative timelines where you posted this CRT.

It was accepted only in one...

Agree btw

 

[Eikichi_Sensei]

I don't know why I have a feeling this thread will eliminate the type 1 concept.

Good luck .

Following.

 

[Hecky2222]

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

 

[69Momo69]

Agreed
Rahhhhhhhhh

 

[Nonynho]

Oh, CM...

Made sense to me, so i agree. hope our mods do the same

 

[Shiraito983]

agree

 

[Ferno1234]

Agreed
Rahhhhhhhhh

Go back to Lotm, where you belong

 

[Mbpoops]

I can agree with this

 

[Incomprehensibleexistence]

Disagree

 

[MSahla]

 

[Mizuki67]

I thought souls in slime was established to be type 1 concepts due to their nature
Is this saying only true dragons retain type 1 concept for their souls? Isn't the whole "skill" thing type 1 conceptual?

 

[69Momo69]

Shh lil one u don't talk with ur huby like that

Go back to Lotm, where you belong

 

[Maniaunavailable]

agree (am anime only)

 

[Mizuki67]

• The core is the most fundamental part of the soul and it defines the person's Concept (Type 1) and Information (Type 2), whereas the soul by itself is only Information (Type 2) according to the following explanation:
  
  • A soul is crystallized energy[3] defining one's collective consciousness, thoughts, ideas, virtual memory, they also cover the Spiritual and Astral Body[4] as well as their skills[5], all of which are made of Information[6].
  • A core or heart, however, defines their Information Particles[7], even their Skills also comes from it[8], as well as their Conceptual self[9], without the core Spiritual Lifeforms would experience true death[10] where they cannot regenerate or resurrect from[11]. An Ego is a set of wavelengths defining a person's being, so that they can take action even if their Core has no energy, and it exists deeper than anything else, beyond their Soul, Information, and Conceptual Self.[12]

Fundamentally speaking the "soul" houses type 1 conceptual shi like information particles, skills, core and so on and so forth, so even if their nature is more info than conceptual the conceptual effects of a soul is still type 1 level rather than type 3 so I disagree with the thread
You're not using the power system to justify this properly because you're effectively saying the voice of the world isn't type 1 but type 3

 

[Community_Gamer]

• The core is the most fundamental part of the soul and it defines the person's Concept (Type 1) and Information (Type 2), whereas the soul by itself is only Information (Type 2) according to the following explanation:
  
  ​
  • A soul is crystallized energy[3] defining one's collective consciousness, thoughts, ideas, virtual memory, they also cover the Spiritual and Astral Body[4] as well as their skills[5], all of which are made of Information[6].
  • A core or heart, however, defines their Information Particles[7], even their Skills also comes from it[8], as well as their Conceptual self[9], without the core Spiritual Lifeforms would experience true death[10] where they cannot regenerate or resurrect from[11]. An Ego is a set of wavelengths defining a person's being, so that they can take action even if their Core has no energy, and it exists deeper than anything else, beyond their Soul, Information, and Conceptual Self.[12]

Fundamentally speaking the "soul" houses type 1 conceptual shi like information particles, skills, core and so on and so forth, so even if their nature is more info than conceptual the conceptual effects of a soul is still type 1 level rather than type 3 so I disagree with the thread
You're not using the power system to justify this properly because you're effectively saying the voice of the world isn't type 1 but type 3

Yeah looking further evidence, I do find it a bit dubious that an Ego is a set of wavelengths at the depths of one's soul which defines or attributes the information particles surrounding it which in turn determine everything about one's existence all exist within every soul in Tensura (SLF or nor) yet only human souls are only CM3?

I understand that SLF and True Dragons have been demonstrated to be embody concepts that operate at universal scale, however that doesn't mean the same isn't true for human souls as well.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I thought souls in slime was established to be type 1 concepts due to their nature
Is this saying only true dragons retain type 1 concept for their souls? Isn't the whole "skill" thing type 1 conceptual?

No, currently Heart core is accepted as one's Conceptual self

Well the tracea of soul = concept are there but they're very spread out.

• The core is the most fundamental part of the soul and it defines the person's Concept (Type 1) and Information (Type 2), whereas the soul by itself is only Information (Type 2) according to the following explanation:
  
  ​
  • A soul is crystallized energy[3] defining one's collective consciousness, thoughts, ideas, virtual memory, they also cover the Spiritual and Astral Body[4] as well as their skills[5], all of which are made of Information[6].
  • A core or heart, however, defines their Information Particles[7], even their Skills also comes from it[8], as well as their Conceptual self[9], without the core Spiritual Lifeforms would experience true death[10] where they cannot regenerate or resurrect from[11]. An Ego is a set of wavelengths defining a person's being, so that they can take action even if their Core has no energy, and it exists deeper than anything else, beyond their Soul, Information, and Conceptual Self.[12]

Fundamentally speaking the "soul" houses type 1 conceptual shi like information particles, skills, core and so on and so forth, so even if their nature is more info than conceptual the conceptual effects of a soul is still type 1 level rather than type 3 so I disagree with the thread
You're not using the power system to justify this properly because you're effectively saying the voice of the world isn't type 1 but type 3

We are not talking about skills. Skills are engraved on the heart core and, well, yeah they're type 1 concepts. But are they concepts of that individual itself? Is Rudra's skill the concept of Rudra? No. Is Veldora's Faust the concept of storms? No.

Meanwhile this thread establishes souls as the essence/concept of X itself. Veldora's soul would be his essence, that is storm/destruction/ruin. A spirit's soul is their essence, their nature as a local concept, etc. Etc.

Kindly distinguish between the concepts here. On one side you have concepts that are sub-set of the world law (skills) that can be engraved on or removes from the soul, without the person disappearing, while on the other side you have one's factors, their soul, their essence without which they cease to exist or cannot maintain their form.

Yeah looking further evidence, I do find it a bit dubious that an Ego is a set of wavelengths at the depths of one's soul which defines or attributes the information particles surrounding it which in turn determine everything about one's existence all exist within every soul in Tensura (SLF or nor) yet only human souls are only CM3?

One's information and their factor define a thing differently. For example, we true dragons can exist purely as a heart core from Volume 15 Veldora situation, yet Michael, without even destroying Velgrynd's heart core, took away the factors in her soul, that made her manifested form disappear (keep in mind that in this case, it was in a way that Velgrynd would remember everything and be tge same, and try to have her revenge on Michael after she revived her manifested form)

So something like:
Information -> defines the soul -> soul factors -> defines manifested form

I understand that SLF and True Dragons have been demonstrated to be embody concepts that operate at universal scale, however that doesn't mean the same isn't true for human souls as well.

Tbf I discussed this bit with Alexa too, but we have zero examples of human factors influencing reality directly, contrary to monster factors. And well we also don't know if they even inherently embody an attribute or not

 

[Deonment]

I'm gonna have to be a stick in the mud aren't I, anyways I'm using this secondary thread to cross reference stuff so correct me if I bring up stuff that's wrong or been MTL'd, also I'm not actually a verse knowledgeable, so bring up if there's context I'm missing

However, even if all their magicules (astral body) dissipate in the physical world, they will eventually resurrect.

Please use/provide the LN scan for this, the manga isn't even canon (iirc)
(Even then this seems a mite bit unique to Veldora, matching the description of what happens whenever a true dragon completely "dies" as you provided here)

However, "Death" for Veldora (who wouldn't die even with the destruction of their "Conceptual Self" (Thought Body)) is destruction of the Heart Core, after which he revives instead of regenerating. It is the True Dragons' oblivion and demise as they no longer remain the same person.

This means that one's Soul is their Thought Body.

That wouldn't actually be enough for me personally, since we don't get direct equivocation between the thought/conceptual self and the soul, but luckily but this scan exists and directly points out the soul as consciousness and then further elaborates on the nature of the spiritual composition, and then this scan directly links if not outright shows the soul as being the heart-core
So soul as thought body and heart core works for me (and thus more basic, not fundamental, I haven't actually seen anything pointing towards that personally, and yes the two are different)

The basic stuff is, the Soul is the true essence/quality of someone. This is stated multiple times.

And that is Veldanava's "design philosophy/concept"

Of note, this is just normal language to describe the soul, as the essence of an individual, it isn't enough in of itself

It is also the "Essence" of a True Dragon, beings that are literally concepts.

Please don't tell me that's actually the scan of veldora being a concept and you meant to link to the higher up AE because that is just ass, there isn't even the mention of anything approaching conceptual in that segment of the profile, hell he's called the incarnation, as in manifest form, of a natural disaster, not a disaster in of itself
But anyways, fair, and I'm guessing abyss of soul is just a fancy way to say "depths of the soul" here, rather than being something character (or true dragon) specific, ie the source of all dragons ever full stop

Normally inanimate things such as skills also have an essence.

Absolutely not, something using the same general term doesn't mean both usages are connected, if something said "The essence of their swordsmanship" does that mean it's usage is the same as a soul being called someone's essence, essence is just a general term for the core or root of something, skills themselves already have a definition on what they are that is directly connected into the soul, being etched into the soul, and manifestations of the soul's own energy

As for truly inanimate things like the terrain itself, space, time, earth, fire, water, etc., they have spirits governing them, spirits have souls, so they have essence too.

This mildly confuses me but that's prolly my misunderstanding of things, so correct me if I'm wrong, Spirits are aspects of the attributes/great spirits, with these spirits existing as the source of a given phenomena within the world derivate of their attribute, so all fire is sourced from ho-oh, correct? Thus there should only be 8 of these spirits, or spirits which exist as derivates of those spirits, such as, like, river from water?
But in any case, sure, though I question the presence of the idea that spirits have souls rather than being souls/spirits unto themselves whenever they aren't manifested

Factors can force change on matter and objects (physical or non-physical) in reality under their influence.

Haven't read the rest of the scans in the spoiler quote so if I end up agreeing later on ignore this, but this just isn't it, something being modified through existing in the presence or energy is a common trope in fiction again (especially with dragons) and whatnot (cough cough seigfried bathing in dragon's blood cough cough), even moreso when a Factor isn't even mentioned there (unless factors are wavelengths ig?)
Rimuru's example is even worse, he's literally just weaponizing magicules to let him deal magical damage, it's sword aura or an enchantment, pick your poison, this isn't really special

Factors determine your existential limits:

Questioning if factor here is Factor as in what you're pointing out or Factor as in contribution, because I can pretty easily read it as the latter rather than the former (though that may be because I'm missing out on context behind naming, but unless naming fundamentally alters a being I somewhat doubt that)

Beings of X species are born from factors of X species. Keep in mind "dragon species" are true dragons and "dragon race" is normal dragons. Different things entirely:

Sure, though that reads far more quantitatively/substance esq than we'd expect out of concepts (also smth smth both have the same factor)

X embodies an enhanced form of its factor. Without a factor, said species cannot come into existence.

Huh, neat, so for example if fire is introduced to said environment, fire attributed monsters will begin to spawn?
Very much can be read as factor as contribution than a conceptual sort of matter, but fire itself is also conceptual (in a sense) so a creature spawning with some conceptual nature as a result wouldn't be that problematic actually

Having your Factor taken away means you cease existing. This would be akin to "taking away the definition of a rock means "rock" no longer exists)

Huh, very strong for that, though will point out how it seems to only affect sub-soul aspects of existence, seeing as how it explicitly calls out the soul and heart-core staying around in spite of the factors being removed, which doesn't exactly help or hinder here, just want to bring it up incase you want to use it elsewhere

Factors make up what X is.

Reads more contributional again

As for Type of Concept... for normal humans and non-spiritual entities, it's Concept type 3 as it's a personal concept only. For true dragons and spirits, and spiritual lifeforms, their soul would be type 1 since all of them have an innate attribute they embody and are themselves already conceptual. As for why it's type 1 and not type 2... it's already explained on the species page in their concept rating.

I mean, no, if you're arguing soul-as-concept then unless the soul of spiritual beings or true dragons is fundamentally different from those of other lifeforms then their souls have to be the same type of concept as the rest seeing as their souls are the same, and it'd require something proving that those souls are in one way or another metaphysically unequivocal, which doesn't seem possible seeing as how both dragon monsters and true dragons can harbor and be influenced by dragon factor in the same manner, so if one is CM1, both are CM1

independency

an untl'd manga scan is the major justification for CM1

Oh for-

Anyways uh, Factors being conceptual is eh to me, far too much quantitative for my tastes, reads more informational to me (or metaphysical/essence if we had a page for it)

Beyond that I don't see souls being conceptual with the arguments in the OP (and also the heart core seems to be the same as the soul, being called the heart a bunch and whatnot, but yall can deal with that), the Factor seems informational

And maybe as a matter for a separate thread if you really want to, spiritual beings really just seem like pure souls

 

[Eikichi_Sensei]

.

I won't say much, but the soul and the heart's core are different; that's all I'll say.

Gyazo

gyazo.com

The soul is also consciousness; it's a poor translation.

Chat gpt (I remember someone translating it, but I can't find it):

“It becomes necessary to have a spiritual body—that is, an Astral Body (幽体)—which serves as a processing device for thought.

Furthermore, with only the Astral Body (幽体), one’s will would disperse into the air and vanish.

Thus, a Spiritual Body (精神体) is needed as a recording device to preserve memories.

However, the Spiritual Body (精神体) is something akin to virtual memory, and therefore cannot serve as a reliable recording me
dium.”

If you want the Japanese text, it's in the same scan you submitted.

 

[Deonment]

I won't say much, but the soul and the heart's core are different; that's all I'll say.

Gyazo

gyazo.com

I mean in the same scan, it specifically goes

Even these, however, can be destroyed if their core is shattered, I think. Demons are pretty tough, though, so maybe even losing their "soul" like that may still be survivable.

Which very much indicates towards the idea of the soul and core being the same without like, explicitly saying "oh yeah the soul and heart-core are one and the same" or something along those lines.
Literally brings up them potentially surviving if they lose their soul the sentence after mentioning their core shattering being a way to kill them (in a unsure manner that is then clarified in a way that equivocates the two)

The soul is also consciousness; it's a poor translation.

Chat gpt (I remember someone translating it, but I can't find it):

If you want the Japanese text, it's in the same scan you submitted.

I agree that the soul is the consciousness; it's why I agree with it being the thought body in the first place (alongside the relationship between it and the astral and spiritual bodies), was one of the first things I brought up in my post

 

[Eikichi_Sensei]

I mean in the same scan, it specifically goes

Which very much indicates towards the idea of the soul and core being the same without like, explicitly saying "oh yeah the soul and heart-core are one and the same" or something along those lines.
Literally brings up them potentially surviving if they lose their soul the sentence after mentioning their core shattering being a way to kill them (in a unsure manner that is then clarified after)

I agree that the soul is the consciousness; it's why I agree with it being the thought body in the first place (alongside the relationship between it and the astral and spiritual bodies), was one of the first things I brought up in my post

Now I realize how awful Press's translation is .

Let me look for another correct translation and the kanji because it's not "perhaps." Also, the soul ≠ core as you think; it's ego-memories > core > soul > everything else.

 

[Ferno1234]

Please use/provide the LN scan for this, the manga isn't even canon (iirc)

The manga is just a visual adaptation of The LN and overall follows the same timelime and continuity, where did this presupposition even come from?

(Even then this seems a mite bit unique to Veldora, matching the description of what happens whenever a true dragon completely "dies" as you provided here)

???

What are you exactly even referring to here? All Slf can resurrect as long as their heart core isn't fully destroyed?

then further elaborates on the nature of the spiritual composition, and then this scan directly links if not outright shows the soul as being the heart-core

The heart core, is a separate thing from the soul as is common knowledge of the verse

And Kondō’s “soul” was passed on to Carrera through the pistol.
However, his Heart Core was not included.
Carrera knew this.

As well as our currently accepted definitions for both as well as their justifications, mentioned merely a single message above

I can't really comprehend the thought process behind this

hell he's called the incarnation, as in manifest form, of a natural disaster, not a disaster in of itself

Fair, i personally wouldn't even use that scan

Spirits are aspects of the attributes/great spirits,

Why the "/"? We had a crt a while ago differentiating between the two

And this confusion would've been dealt with by merely checking the "species" page for the verse?

this is just normal language to describe the soul, as the essence of an individual, it isn't enough in of itself

Indulge me, I'm curious as to the reasoning why you think "essence" and "true essence" or "quality" are the same

does that mean it's usage is the same as a soul being called someone's essence, essence is just a general term for the core or root of something,

I'd agree, if it didn't say  explicity say "true essence" as you saw yourself, so this point isn't really relevant here

Questioning if factor here is Factor as in what you're pointing out or Factor as in contribution, because I can pretty easily read it as the latter rather than the former

Can't say the same, especially when the factor determines one's existence and composes them

"Velgrynd, whose Dragon Factor was stolen, had become unable to maintain her existence

In other words, if there were someone harboring fragments of the factors that had composed Lucia

true dragons can harbor and be influenced by dragon factor in the same manner

I don't really understand this point, considering true dragons have their own individual factors, and dragon monsters on the other hand are born from the factor of gaia

then unless the soul of spiritual beings or true dragons is fundamentally different from those of other lifeforms

Slf are embodiments of the laws of the world, with the soul being their true essence? Pretty sure this is also mentioned in the "species" page

and also the heart core seems to be the same as the soul, being called the heart a bunch and whatnot, but yall can deal with that

Meh, both are already indexed with their own descriptions, i don't see any the significance of mentioning this

an untl'd manga scan is the major justification for CM1

I meann, Rimuru a Slf could persist in the eost? Plus slf can cross worlds, independent of their og one?

This doesn't really seem like a comment done out of seriousness, considering just reading could've prevented a lot of confusion(or Ignorance?), hard to say at this point

 

[Deonment]

Now I realize how awful Press's translation is .

Let me look for another correct translation and the kanji because it's not "perhaps." Also, the soul ≠ core as you think; it's ego-memories > core > soul > everything else.

It's yen press, what were you really expecting

Sure, I can wait, though, reading some scans I'm wondering if either a)it's a retcon that happened between volumes, as the author changed their mind on things, which, sure or b)soul here is being used as a catchall for everything above the soul in that context, whether due to doing shorthand or imperfect information on the side of the characters.

(I'm also mildly curious on how exactly the ego core and soul are superior to each other, because to my reading (of this scan, so provide additional context if needed) they seem more interdepedent or interrelated than a direct chain of superiority)

 

[Eikichi_Sensei]

I mean in the same scan, it specifically goes

Which very much indicates towards the idea of the soul and core being the same without like, explicitly saying "oh yeah the soul and heart-core are one and the same" or something along those lines.
Literally brings up them potentially surviving if they lose their soul the sentence after mentioning their core shattering being a way to kill them (in a unsure manner that is then clarified in a way that equivocates the two)

I agree that the soul is the consciousness; it's why I agree with it being the thought body in the first place (alongside the relationship between it and the astral and spiritual bodies), was one of the first things I brought up in my post

After reading the YenPress translation, you completely got me there ◑﹏◐.

If the soul and the core were the same thing, then none of this would make sense, because:

心核(ココロ)が砕かれれば消滅する
“If the Kokoro is destroyed, they disappear.”

魂が砕かれた程度では復活するかも知れません
“Even with only the soul destroyed, they might still revive.”

運良く倒せたならば、ちゃんと心核(ココロ)まで砕かないと駄目
“If you manage to defeat them, you have to make sure to destroy even the Kokoro.”

It would basically be contradicting itself three separate times if soul = core.

Scan 2:

The truth is there are too many separations between Alma and Núcleo, but Ferno has already shown some.

Volume 22 (Literally)

Gyazo

gyazo.com

 

[Deonment]

The manga is just a visual adaptation of The LN and overall follows the same timelime and continuity, where did this presupposition even come from?

That doesn't make it canon, we don't presume anything outside of the source material is canon without a statement proving such, that's the wiki's baseline standard. We let additional materials like anime for mangas be canon if something isn't contradicted, and unless it's something like Bleach's TYBW, only used for timeframes. This is multiplicatively true when the adaptation of the medium is into something that fundamentally will have less information. I say this as someone coming from Kumo Desu Ga, whose manga and anime adaptations entirely lack content.

What are you exactly even referring to here? All Slf can resurrect as long as their heart core isn't fully destroyed?

In reference to the reviving elsewhere, bringing up how they lose memories, being the exact descriptor used for what happens to true dragons whenever they die, so using it as a general case example seems bunk, especially if there are others that work better

The heart core, is a separate thing from the soul as is common knowledge of the verse
As well as our currently accepted definitions for both as well as their justifications, mentioned merely a single message above

I can't really comprehend the thought process behind this

That message got edited while I was typing so I never saw it, and the scan itself called the soul the heart, so I made an assumption based on the proposed evidence because I don't know the verse
But yeah that works to prove otherwise

If the soul and the core were the same thing, then none of this would make sense, because:




It would basically be contradicting itself three separate times if soul = core.

Certified Yen Press moment lmfao

Why the "/"? We had a crt a while ago differentiating between the two

And this confusion would've been dealt with by merely checking the "species" page for the verse?

Didn't see that CRT

I'm double-checking because it's confusing and could actually hamper matters if it wasn't the case, I did in fact check the species page and that's why I asked in the first place, because it could genuinely hurt things either here or in another CRT, because becoming a spiritual lifeform (and thus a concept) without in some way gaining a concept of your own to govern (whether through subsuming a concept, creating one, becoming part of one, or what have you) brings into question whether or not spiritual lifeforms are conceptual to begin with, seeing as the only requirement (to my understanding and reading of various scans) is to become released from the material and spiritual body, existing and thinking with only your astral body and soul

Indulge me, I'm curious as to the reasoning why you think "essence" and "true essence" or "quality" are the same

Quality itself isn't used in those quotes so idk why you brought it up
But that wasn't my argument, my argument is that a soul being described as someone's or something's essence is genuinely one of the most generic descriptors of the soul ever, that is, quite literally, its IRL definition, so whether or not it's described as an essence doesn't really matter

I'd agree, if it didn't say  explicity say "true essence" as you saw yourself, so this point isn't really relevant here

It being called a true essence doesn't matter, I can replace literally every use of essence with true essence and vice versa, and shit wouldn't change, hell the quotes themselves use the two interchangeably

Guy, being well practiced at it, broke through Velzard’s multilayered mental barriers and dived toward the abyss of the soul, which was the essence of the Dragon Species.

Whether suppression was possible or impossible. That alone was important. Shion left aside the swirling emotions as they were, and accepted them as they were. Just as Rimuru had said, Shion put it into practice. No matter how unreasonable and difficult an idealistic theory it might be, honestly and simply with stubborn straightforwardness. As a result, Shion had become able to intuit the true essence of things through the soul. Even in the battle against Dagruel, Shion’s intuition had manifested itself.

So bringing up it mentioning true essence is just being pedantic
(and then there is the secondary thought I had on this on the fact that it's stated Shion intuits the true essence of things through the state of their soul, not the soul itself, which could pretty easily mean the two are separate, but honestly idgaf on that matter)

Can't say the same, especially when the factor determines one's existence and composes them

Considering factor is still a completely normal word that people can use, I disagree. A name was a factor in Diablo's evolution, yes, but that is a completely valid sentence to take even without a potential in-verse secondary meaning for factor, even more so considering the term factor is not a proper noun in this context, lacking the associated capitalization that is used elsewhere properly, which makes it mildly difficult to accept off bat as all usages of factor being the same thing

I don't really understand this point, considering true dragons have their own individual factors, and dragon monsters on the other hand are born from the factor of gaia

No?

To begin with, the dragons (Dragon race) of this world are nothing more than monsters born possessing degraded factors of my elder brother, the Star King Dragon Veldanava, who is the strongest dragon species.

When thinking about it together with the story I heard earlier from Eren, it seems that the Elemental Dragon died and became a Chaos Dragon. At that time, dragon factors were probably scattered/spread around. Even now, it seems that Lesser Dragons are born from pools of magicules, and if the factors of the Elemental Dragon appear strongly, they become Upper Dragons (Arch Dragons).

The quotes within the OP indicate otherwise, that the factors of the dragon race are the diluted out factors of Veldanava, it's the same factor, just different extents
And in any case, that doesn't actually change my point that the souls do not have evidence for being different

Slf are embodiments of the laws of the world, with the soul being their true essence? Pretty sure this is also mentioned in the "species" page

That doesn't actually change the nature of one's soul, surprisingly or not, you need evidence to the contrary that the souls are not of the same nature (which would be hard, considering that, we explicitly know of what makes up the soul, and unless there's something proving otherwise they are still fundamentally made of the same substance expressing the same phenomena, so), being an abstract or foundational entity doesn't neccesarily provide one with a soul that functions differently from a normal person with a soul (especially considering the afformentioned line of thought that those entities may just be pure souls to begin with)

I meann, Rimuru a Slf could persist in the eost? Plus slf can cross worlds, independent of their og one?

Major evidence, not all, but for the latter, that doesn't actually mean much, a concept's domain is either a)"bound to the scope of their reality", as in their domain is the fire of that world, that doesn't change because they get up and leave, the fire of that world still exists, and what have you or b)when they go somewhere else their domain becomes the domain of that world (as in if they travel from world A to world B, their particulars stop being the fires of world A and start being the fires of world B), but in either case, that doesn't actually show the concept being independent of it's particulars for a given reason (it's most likely the former if you want my opinion, concepts are aspatial and atemporal, they and their particulars shouldn't care about where their embodiement manifests as long as the concept itself exists)
(and are we really using Rimuru of all people as a general example of behaviours exhibited across an entire species, really? What is he even the concept of to begin with?)

 

[Deonment]

Didn't see that CRT

Having actually gotten around to reading that CRT, my confusion on what they are is gone (To my understanding it's VoTW -> Attributes -> Great Holy Spirits -> True Dragons/Rest of the elemental spirits (though I may be a mite bit confused on the standing on Great Spirits compared to True Dragons considering Veldanava but honestly that's secondary), but my issue with assuming all spiritual lifeforms are conceptual is compounded given all those properties very much seem to be spoken in reference to elementals/true dragons, rather than something that's generally applicable to all spiritual life forms

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

Following but why can’t I see any tier 0 wank

 

[Ferno1234]

That doesn't make it canon, we don't presume anything outside of the source material is canon without a statement proving such, that's the wiki's baseline standard

I'll let the op handle this then, though i do have this from mipon

(Tl done by chrome's built in one)

¿Que tanto estuvo involucrado con la adaptación al manga y anime de TenSura?

Para la adaptación del manga, supervisé casi todo, mientras que para las “spin-off”, escribí la trama y respondí cualquier pregunta que tuviera el personal.

How involved was he with the manga and anime adaptation of TenSura?

For the manga adaptation, I oversaw almost everything, while for the spin-offs, I wrote the plot and answered any questions the staff had.

so using it as a general case example seems bunk, especially if there are others that work better

Okay? The species page is right there for anyone that wants to view Slf in detail?

Quality itself isn't used in those quotes so idk why you brought it up

Seems i mixed up a different statement for the soul that isn't present here

It being called a true essence doesn't matter

It does though? True essence has a very definitive definition? Unless you're looking at something I'm not seeing

through the state of their soul

The state of the soul and the soul itself are no different, so doesn't change much

a person’s essence is shown in the state of the soul

hell the quotes themselves use the two ininterchangeably

Further proves my point, you don't have much here other the belief of it "not mattering"

Considering factor is still a completely normal word that people can use, I disagree. A name was a factor in Diablo's evolution, yes, but that is a completely valid sentence to take even without a potential in-verse secondary meaning for factor

Doesn't really address anything, not much to say

The quotes within the OP indicate otherwise

How so? I'm curious

Gaia was born from Veldanava's last remaining power

When thinking about it together with the story I heard earlier from Eren, it seems that the Elemental Dragon died and became a Chaos Dragon. At that time, dragon factors were probably scattered/spread around

Veldanava used the last of his energy to gift his daughter a pet dragon — the Elemental Dragon

From the Tensura wiki

Upon the death of the elemental dragon and its subsequent transformation into a chaos dragon, its factor spread throughout the world, it scattered its remains and basically gave birth to the Dragon race that took residence in Dragon's Den, which is where the chaos dragon was sealed away.

The origin in the end is still Veldanava himself? Considering gaia is the creation of his own energy

And in any case, that doesn't actually change my point that the souls do not have evidence for being different

Already addressed before, the soul is the true essence of a being, but unlike humans or other beings, Slf and Tds are embodiments of the laws of the world along with the prior

Their very nature is different

(Gpt Tl, Vol 17)

そして完全同化したならば、もはや人とは言えない姿になるのよ」
同化が完全でないならば、この帝都を守る『結界』で十分に見抜けるだろう。人間に変身することはできても、その存在の根本が異質だからだ。

If the assimilation is incomplete, the “Barrier” protecting the Imperial Capital should be more than sufficient to detect them. Even if they are capable of transforming into humans, the fundamental nature of their existence remains something entirely different.

And again, their soul is their essence

a concept's domain is either a)"bound to the scope of their reality"

Slf are embodiments of the laws of the world and are embody their respective attribute, spirits such as that of fire goven their world, but spiritual lifeforms will persist even if the world itself is destroyed,

the fire of that world still exists, and what have you or b)when they go somewhere else their domain becomes the domain of that world

The op is referring to the respective factor of a spirit's influence being a tied to a world, not the spirit itself

concepts are aspatial and atemporal,

You referring to 1-A universals or Platonic forms? Cause that isn't what a "concept" is, a concept in general is just the mental representation of something

and are we really using Rimuru of all people as a general example of behaviours exhibited across an entire species, really? What is he even the concept of to begin with?

I don't see the problem? He's an Slf? And Slf are a type of being, they're not a "species" per se, i can't remember what he embodies, I'll let the more Knowledgeable members deal with that

elementals/true dragons, rather than something that's generally applicable to all spiritual life forms

And? I don't see the issue? All Slf are elementals embodying a certain attribute? Like, the "species" page already addresses this?

Ifrit embodies the attribute of fire, zegion embodies the attribute of water, a demon like diablo, darkness, an angel, light etc

 

[Bahaha]

Having actually gotten around to reading that CRT, my confusion on what they are is gone (To my understanding it's VoTW -> Attributes -> Great Holy Spirits -> True Dragons/Rest of the elemental spirits (though I may be a mite bit confused on the standing on Great Spirits compared to True Dragons considering Veldanava but honestly that's secondary), but my issue with assuming all spiritual lifeforms are conceptual is compounded given all those properties very much seem to be spoken in reference to elementals/true dragons, rather than something that's generally applicable to all spiritual life forms

Once a being evolves into an SLF they "get" an attribute to their soul

 

[69Momo69]

Bomb mod's text walls

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Please use/provide the LN scan for this, the manga isn't even canon (iirc)
(Even then this seems a mite bit unique to Veldora, matching the description of what happens whenever a true dragon completely "dies" as you provided here)

The manga, spinoffs, anime, and even parts of the game written by Fuse are considered canon. I'm not sure where the manga part was accepted since the mana has been around here ever since LN was first introduced here. See here for reference:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tensei_Shitara_Slime_Datta_Ken#Note

(Even then this seems a mite bit unique to Veldora, matching the description of what happens whenever a true dragon completely "dies" as you provided here)

This isn't talking about Veldora but spiritual lifeforms in general. I mean, the first word is "spiritual lifeforms" in the scan.

Tye visuals use Veldora as an example cuz he's one of the only spiritual lifeforms Rimuru knows.

That wouldn't actually be enough for me personally, since we don't get direct equivocation between the thought/conceptual self and the soul,

https://vsbattles.com/members/hakutorei000.38747/#profile-post-138694

(F, why can't I copy-paste replies from msg walls)

but luckily but this scan exists and directly points out the soul as consciousness

Sadly consciousness here means the ego. Though Rimuru and sage don't know the principle of souls yet in this volume. Heck, even Raphael only (almost) fully analyzed the principle of the soul in like V13.

and then further elaborates on the nature of the spiritual composition, and then this scan directly links if not outright shows the soul as being the heart-core

For veldanava's sake, heart core =/= soul. An outside layer covers everything in the inside. Technically, the astral body protects both the soul and the heart core. Still, even then, this scan is also from a time when neither rimuru nor sage understood the soul well enough (heck, since they can't even detect info particles at this point, they wouldn't be able to even detect the presence of the actual heart core - collection of information particles).

So soul as thought body and heart core works for me (and thus more basic, not fundamental, I haven't actually seen anything pointing towards that personally, and yes the two are different)

Uh... Soul isn't the heart core. It contains the heart core but the "Soul" itself only refers to the layer outside the heart core, most of the time.

Of note, this is just normal language to describe the soul, as the essence of an individual, it isn't enough in of itself

I'm pretty sure it is as long as its clear enough.
Well, I'll summon the essence guy @Grabbing_dragon

Please don't tell me that's actually the scan of veldora being a concept and you meant to link to the higher up AE because that is just ass, there isn't even the mention of anything approaching conceptual in that segment of the profile, hell he's called the incarnation, as in manifest form, of a natural disaster, not a disaster in of itself
But anyways, fair, and I'm guessing abyss of soul is just a fancy way to say "depths of the soul" here, rather than being something character (or true dragon) specific, ie the source of all dragons ever full stop

Aye, it is accepted, for whatever reason that may or may not be listed under the profile. I'm not gonna argue something that's already accepted and established.

Absolutely not, something using the same general term doesn't mean both usages are connected, if something said "The essence of their swordsmanship" does that mean it's usage is the same as a soul being called someone's essence, essence is just a general term for the core or root of something, skills themselves already have a definition on what they are that is directly connected into the soul, being etched into the soul, and manifestations of the soul's own energy

too bad, it means true nature here:

Jisho.org: Japanese Dictionary

jisho.org

This mildly confuses me but that's prolly my misunderstanding of things, so correct me if I'm wrong,

Sure

Spirits are aspects of the attributes/great spirits,

1. Great Spirits =/= Attributes.
2. They are split off from the Great Spirits
3. They embody the Attributes (Laws of the World)

with these spirits existing as the source of a given phenomena within the world derivate of their attribute, so all fire is sourced from ho-oh, correct?

Correct

Thus there should only be 8 of these spirits, or spirits which exist as derivates of those spirits, such as, like, river from water?

To be exact, there is only one unique "Spirit" for each attribute, a Great Spirit. All other Spirits are split off from those. So in simple terms you're mostly right on that.

But in any case, sure, though I question the presence of the idea that spirits have souls rather than being souls/spirits unto themselves whenever they aren't manifested

Elementals do have souls (note: Elemental = Spirit, it's a yenpress thing lol)

Haven't read the rest of the scans in the spoiler quote so if I end up agreeing later on ignore this, but this just isn't it, something being modified through existing in the presence or energy is a common trope in fiction again (especially with dragons) and whatnot (cough cough seigfried bathing in dragon's blood cough cough), even moreso when a Factor isn't even mentioned there (unless factors are wavelengths ig?)

Rimuru's example is even worse, he's literally just weaponizing magicules to let him deal magical damage, it's sword aura or an enchantment, pick your poison, this isn't really special

Magicules can transmit factor. Well I'll get to ds later. The guy who gave me this idea is in the dream realm.
Edit: He revived. Here's the scan.

Questioning if factor here is Factor as in what you're pointing out or Factor as in contribution, because I can pretty easily read it as the latter rather than the former (though that may be because I'm missing out on context behind naming, but unless naming fundamentally alters a being I somewhat doubt that)

Factors always have the same kanji (因子). And no it's not factor as in contribution.
To begin with I got the scans by searching for 因子 in all the Japanese RAWs lol

Sure, though that reads far more quantitatively/substance esq than we'd expect out of concepts (also smth smth both have the same factor)

Na, it's a quality, since taking away one's factor makes them cease to exist entirely (like taking away the quality of a rock can make it cease to exist).

Huh, neat, so for example if fire is introduced to said environment, fire attributed monsters will begin to spawn?

If the fire is magical in nature yeah
Physical things don't have any effect on factor tho. Otherwise humans would be out here converting everything else into humans too.

Very much can be read as factor as contribution than a conceptual sort of matter, but fire itself is also conceptual (in a sense) so a creature spawning with some conceptual nature as a result wouldn't be that problematic actually

To be precise, the "factors" that can effect a monster would be a fire spirit's. Ogres for example (along with many other things) are born from the Factors of Enki, the first materialized Fire Spirit(s) in the world.

Huh, very strong for that, though will point out how it seems to only affect sub-soul aspects of existence, seeing as how it explicitly calls out the soul and heart-core staying around in spite of the factors being removed, which doesn't exactly help or hinder here, just want to bring it up incase you want to use it elsewhere

Yeah. I forgot to include that in the OP (cuz **** this shi I had to rewrite the description for the scans twice cuz forum glitch)
Factors reside in the Soul but are not the entirety of the Soul itself.

Reads more contributional again

Atp just see this:

Jisho.org: Japanese Dictionary

jisho.org

But yeah it's not contribution.

I mean, no, if you're arguing soul-as-concept then unless the soul of spiritual beings or true dragons is fundamentally different from those of other lifeforms then their souls have to be the same type of concept as the rest seeing as their souls are the same, and it'd require something proving that those souls are in one way or another metaphysically unequivocal, which doesn't seem possible seeing as how both dragon monsters and true dragons can harbor and be influenced by dragon factor in the same manner, so if one is CM1, both are CM1

Hmm
Well my arg is that human souls don't embody an attribute. I mean, I guess vsbw does have "personal but independent concepts" sometimes listed as type 1 but... I'm honestly unsure about humans.

If the majority still thinks human souls should also be CM1 by this logic, tho, then ig I'll accept it lol)

Oh for-

an untl'd manga scan is the major justification for CM1

I have checked the raws for all of those scans and the manga tl is correct. If it was incorrect, I'd get it translated (like I did with one I linked you to, above).

Anyways uh, Factors being conceptual is eh to me, far too much quantitative for my tastes, reads more informational to me (or metaphysical/essence if we had a page for it)

Beyond that I don't see souls being conceptual with the arguments in the OP (and also the heart core seems to be the same as the soul, being called the heart a bunch and whatnot, but yall can deal with that), the Factor seems informational

No.

And maybe as a matter for a separate thread if you really want to, spiritual beings really just seem like pure souls

Spirits very much have an astral body, soul and all bruh
It's already a semi-established thing that some slfs can think with their souls, some with astral body, some with even their heart core. Thinking with their Soul or Heart Core is considered "OP" cuz it means one can survive the destruction of the astral and spiritual bodies, and the latter even means one can recognize the Suspended World to an extent.

Otherwise we'd be assuming a weak ass demon imp (cuz really, demons are just darkness spirits) can exist purely as a soul, when just destroying their magic corpus is enough to destroy them (this only applies to lesser demons tho)

Sure, I can wait, though, reading some scans I'm wondering if either a)it's a retcon that happened between volumes, as the author changed their mind on things, which, sure or b)soul here is being used as a catchall for everything above the soul in that context, whether due to doing shorthand or imperfect information on the side of the characters.

B

(I'm also mildly curious on how exactly the ego core and soul are superior to each other, because to my reading (of this scan, so provide additional context if needed) they seem more interdepedent or interrelated than a direct chain of superiority)

Spiritual Body = Mind
Astral Body = Magicules (which is also once or twice called Aether)
Soul = Conceptual Self (going by this CRT0
Heart Core = Informational self
Ego = Consciousness

Every inner layer controls the outer layers. Being able to exist as any of the inner layers (like existing only as the soul, or heart core) determines the lvl of a spiritual lifeform (ranging from normal to Divinity to steps beyond that).

Side info; Currently the only beings shown to exist purely as an Ego and can survive the destruction of everything else, are Rimuru (who would have known smh smh) and Twilight.

(Gpt Tl, Vol 17)

if there's no tl just ask one to one of our tl helpers on their msg wall or dms. Don't use MTL (Ion wanna see what happened to me happening to you, Ferno-chan)

Having actually gotten around to reading that CRT, my confusion on what they are is gone (To my understanding it's VoTW -> Attributes -> Great Holy Spirits -> True Dragons/Rest of the elemental spirits (though I may be a mite bit confused on the standing on Great Spirits compared to True Dragons considering Veldanava but honestly that's secondary), but my issue with assuming all spiritual lifeforms are conceptual is compounded given all those properties very much seem to be spoken in reference to elementals/true dragons, rather than something that's generally applicable to all spiritual life forms

Tbh no, I used to think that before but now I don't think the same. Also I'm pretty sure it was said in the CRT you read that true dragons are the highest type of great holy spirits.
(V23 lore drop: True Dragons (all 4) were born at the same time as the World itself (not physical one tho, I mean the framework, before the concept of time and space) stabilized that "World" and established order)

Well Ferno is handling the rest of your contentions well enough, so I'll leave it to him.

 

[Mizuki67]

No, currently Heart core is accepted as one's Conceptual self

Well the tracea of soul = concept are there but they're very spread out.

We are not talking about skills. Skills are engraved on the heart core and, well, yeah they're type 1 concepts. But are they concepts of that individual itself? Is Rudra's skill the concept of Rudra? No. Is Veldora's Faust the concept of storms? No.

Actually, people's skills are manifestations of their souls, do you not read the power system fam?
Law Manipulation, Reality Warping, Subjective Reality & Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1; Skills are part of the natural laws of the world,[64] the world itself,[6] etched into one's Soul,[63] they are also the the manifestation of one's desires[63] and the embodiment of one's mind.[65]
As skills reflect the user's will, no two skills are ever identical.[63] Skills are, in their core, ways to manipulate[63] the Laws of the World according to their user's wishes and desire, simply by wishing.

 

[Mizuki67]

Rudra skill is the concept of rudra indeed my friend
I mean.....someone's soul can even be STORED inside the skills themselves like with rudra and lucia
With that someone can act like rudra or have memories of rudra, so please don't go saying things like this and this works across all dimensions

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Actually, people's skills are manifestations of their souls, do you not read the power system fam?
Law Manipulation, Reality Warping, Subjective Reality & Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1; Skills are part of the natural laws of the world,[64] the world itself,[6] etched into one's Soul,[63] they are also the the manifestation of one's desires[63] and the embodiment of one's mind.[65]
As skills reflect the user's will, no two skills are ever identical.[63] Skills are, in their core, ways to manipulate[63] the Laws of the World according to their user's wishes and desire, simply by wishing.

You do know... Souls can also mean soul as a whole, including the heart core...
Have you never thought why skills are present as data in the heart core?

Rudra skill is the concept of rudra indeed my friend
I mean.....someone's soul can even be STORED inside the skills themselves like with rudra and lucia
With that someone can act like rudra or have memories of rudra, so please don't go saying things like this and this works across all dimensions

That doesn't still mean soul = skills tho
Being in a container =/= being that very container

Sure Skills are mind embodied but... that doesn't change the fact that they're written as data in the heart core. Before you bring the arg that "oh, sometimes skills reside in the soul too" that makes it even worse, as it's not something consistent (it can be in heart core sometimes, and in soul sometimes), making the idea of treating the soul as conceptual via that even more... bad.

 

[Mizuki67]

Why not add proofs to these args yourself then? Quotations would help

You do know... Souls can also mean soul as a whole, including the heart core...
Have you never thought why skills are present as data in the heart core?

That doesn't still mean soul = skills tho
Being in a container =/= being that very container

Sure Skills are mind embodied but... that doesn't change the fact that they're written as data in the heart core. Before you bring the arg that "oh, sometimes skills reside in the soul too" that makes it even worse, as it's not something consistent (it can be in heart core sometimes, and in soul sometimes), making the idea of treating the soul as conceptual via that even more... bad.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Why not add proofs to these args yourself then? Quotations would help

are we serious rn?
The general concept page is there for a reason
You as a verse supporter of all people should already be familiar with it before commenting on threads involving those things...

General Concepts in Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken (Light Novel)

This is to ensure and provide context to whatever ability exist in slime which rather seems questionable, with adequate explanation on the idea of whatever ability exist on some profiles of Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken, they are also additional explanations on other abilities such as ultimate...

vsbattles.fandom.com

I don't like the idea of acting like the other person doesn't know shi, then later acting like you don't know what he's talking about when you do, in fact, know.
If you genuinely didn't know the page existed, I guess it's fine and I would apologize (if that were to be the case), but otherwise just no.

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

Following. I'll wait for some more input from both sides before giving my thoughts.

 

[MetaChronos]

Mf why do you always make a CRT when i have an exam

Agree and Following

 

[Deonment]

I'm gonna ignore the heart=soul parts of astrals' response, considering I already conceded the point earlier (or OP was just taking a bit to respond), I'm guessing that's just covering bases and all

The manga, spinoffs, anime, and even parts of the game written by Fuse are considered canon. I'm not sure where the manga part was accepted since the mana has been around here ever since LN was first introduced here. See here for reference:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tensei_Shitara_Slime_Datta_Ken#Note

I'll let the op handle this then, though i do have this from mipon

(Tl done by chrome's built in one)

KK, I did check the canon thread to see and I didn't see the manga, but my main concern is with potential information lost as the medium is translated (manga's have less "room" to explain shit than novels, especially when it comes to exposition dumps), but aight

It does though? True essence has a very definitive definition? Unless you're looking at something I'm not seeing

Further proves my point, you don't have much here other the belief of it "not mattering"

too bad, it means true nature here:

Jisho.org: Japanese Dictionary

jisho.org

I'm gonna scream
What do yall think essence means? It means true nature, it-in-of-itself, the core of what something is, we don't treat it as being conceptual, because of reasons, but to be something's essence is to be that. True doesn't work as an affix here because it being True is already in the basic definition of essence, the only case in which it being "true" actually changes matters is if a previously believed essence wasn't actually the core of something, and thus this essence is the actual essence of something
That doesn't make it not also equally capable of being used in less than conceptual/universal manners mind you, someone can describe the essence of all swordsmanship as cutting, blocking, and parrying, which is to what I'm speaking about in reference to the skills, that just because essence is being used there does not mean it's being used to reference the exact same idea of soul-as-essence rather than referring to the core idea of what a skill is (though rereading the scan in question it does bring it up in reference to skills as a manifestation of human desire, which know from elsewhere are manifestations of the energy of the soul in response to desire, so maybe it counts but honestly I wouldn't describe the soul which energy formed it as being it's soul)

Magicules can transmit factor. Well I'll get to ds later. The guy who gave me this idea is in the dream realm.
Edit: He revived. Here's the scan.

I mean, sure, yeah, though in that scan, isn't the specific issue that the magicules lack any factor with which to generate a monster?
My issue is more that factor isn't mentioned there, though the wavelength/ego is, so idk honestly

Factors always have the same kanji (因子). And no it's not factor as in contribution.
To begin with I got the scans by searching for 因子 in all the Japanese RAWs lol

Hmm, ig,

How so? I'm curious

Yes, it's the same source and all, my point is that they fundamentally are the same thing, just in different quantities for true dragons compared to normal dragons, whether diluted down or what have you

Already addressed before, the soul is the true essence of a being, but unlike humans or other beings, Slf and Tds are embodiments of the laws of the world along with the prior

Their very nature is different

(Gpt Tl, Vol 17)
And again, their soul is their essence

For the first line that doesn't actually address my point, a soul doesn't change just because someone is more fundamental when they are composed of the same substance, when they serve the exact same function, the soul itself has to undergo a transformation or on some fundamental level be different

For the scan I'd ask for the fuller context on what they're looking for, but if it's just for non-humans I can think of a thousand and one differences they could be picking out (something something factor) to discern if something is non-human or not without actually digging into if their soul itself is categorically not the same as a monster or human

You referring to 1-A universals or Platonic forms? Cause that isn't what a "concept" is, a concept in general is just the mental representation of something

A concept in general is still aspatial and atemporal, they do not participate in space-time as an abstract phenomenon. Tier does not matter, a soul or concept (typically) doesn't have a location in space or time that one can point out to say there it exists, the laws of physics does not exist anywhere or anywhen, it just does.

But in any case yeah, just travelling dimensions isn't enough to disconnect a concept/embodiment's connection to their particulars, a concept doesn't suddenly stop being the source of fire on earth just cause it traveled a couple googol light-years away

I don't see the problem? He's an Slf? And Slf are a type of being, they're not a "species" per se, i can't remember what he embodies, I'll let the more Knowledgeable members deal with that

There are a trillion things about Rimuru that'd make me consider him as an outlier to the average spiritual lifeform, to where I wouldn't use him as someone whose nature generally applies to all spiritual lifeforms

And? I don't see the issue? All Slf are elementals embodying a certain attribute? Like, the "species" page already addresses this?

Ifrit embodies the attribute of fire, zegion embodies the attribute of water, a demon like diablo, darkness, an angel, light etc

To be precise, the "factors" that can effect a monster would be a fire spirit's. Ogres for example (along with many other things) are born from the Factors of Enki, the first materialized Fire Spirit(s) in the world.

Okay, so I'll deal/question both of these at once. Is it that all monsters/non-spiritual lifeforms innately have some degree of spiritual lifeform ancestry to them? So, ogres and whatnot have a spiritual ancestry that traces all the way back up to the first Fire Spirits, and thus their transformation into spiritual lifeforms is more of a return to that ancestral (conceptual) state, with such a principle applying to all living beings? If so, then sure, but then I question why elemental is a sub-category than a general one because all of these mfs are elemental anyways.

More tangential question of then what attribute/spirit humans are derived from, since they can also become spiritual lifeforms, but like, shrug

also smth smth all factors are just derivatives of attributes

https://vsbattles.com/members/hakutorei000.38747/#profile-post-138694 (F, why can't I copy-paste replies from msg walls)

kk

Sadly consciousness here means the ego. Though Rimuru and sage don't know the principle of souls yet in this volume. Heck, even Raphael only (almost) fully analyzed the principle of the soul in like V13.

B

Huh, yeah aight

Elementals do have souls (note: Elemental = Spirit, it's a yenpress thing lol)

Spirits very much have an astral body, soul and all bruh
It's already a semi-established thing that some slfs can think with their souls, some with astral body, some with even their heart core. Thinking with their Soul or Heart Core is considered "OP" cuz it means one can survive the destruction of the astral and spiritual bodies, and the latter even means one can recognize the Suspended World to an extent.

Otherwise we'd be assuming a weak ass demon imp (cuz really, demons are just darkness spirits) can exist purely as a soul, when just destroying their magic corpus is enough to destroy them (this only applies to lesser demons tho)

Sure, k

(I mean, honestly, it'd make sense to me if they basically only existed as pure souls, or at the very least, being only dependent upon their soul, considering how stuff is described)

Though for that second point, is it not just wholly possible the reason they die is that they no longer have a material form to anchor themselves, and they're weak enough that all their energy (effectively) instantly dissipates into the world, and they die ala this scan

Na, it's a quality, since taking away one's factor makes them cease to exist entirely (like taking away the quality of a rock can make it cease to exist).

I'm not disagreeing with it being a quality; I'm pointing out how it is also to some degree quantitative, in that dragons can be weaker or stronger depending upon how strongly the dragon factor manifests itself.

Factors always have the same kanji (因子). And no it's not factor as in contribution.
To begin with I got the scans by searching for 因子 in all the Japanese RAWs lol

Atp just see this:

Jisho.org: Japanese Dictionary

jisho.org

But yeah it's not contribution.

Factor is a normal word that means the exact thing yall are bringing up in ways that don't have to be conceptual
Literally

One of the elements, circumstances, or influences which contribute to produce a result.

In any case it reads far more like information to me (if that but honestly I'd have to go about interrogating my own assumptions and whatnot, so ignore this) than something outright conceptual without cross scaling to something else

Hmm
Well my arg is that human souls don't embody an attribute. I mean, I guess vsbw does have "personal but independent concepts" sometimes listed as type 1 but... I'm honestly unsure about humans.

If the majority still thinks human souls should also be CM1 by this logic, tho, then ig I'll accept it lol)

My argument is more in terms of like
Hydrogen and Iron are both atoms, yeah? They may have different properties, different amounts of electrons, protons, and neutrons, but at the end of the day they're both atoms and they both have the same fundamental structure and follow the same fundamental rules, to argue otherwise you'd have to show that a given element showcases extremely weird behaviour rather than work under the assumption that just because they have different weights and charges that they are fundamentally different particles
The same thing applies here; they may have different external properties and whatnot, but they share the same composition, participate in the same rules, work the exact same bar external specificities (aka skills), and as such, to assume that they are as fundamentally different as being wholly different types of concept is just kinda wack without a showing or statement that proves as such

Spiritual Body = Mind
Astral Body = Magicules (which is also once or twice called Aether)
Soul = Conceptual Self (going by this CRT0
Heart Core = Informational self
Ego = Consciousness

Kk, though iirc the spiritual body was memories and the astral was moreso where thoughts can actually form (so closer to the mind there)

But yeah thanks for the clarification

Tbh no, I used to think that before but now I don't think the same. Also I'm pretty sure it was said in the CRT you read that true dragons are the highest type of great holy spirits.
(V23 lore drop: True Dragons (all 4) were born at the same time as the World itself (not physical one tho, I mean the framework, before the concept of time and space) stabilized that "World" and established order)

kk