HGR Is Back Baby

[Tempestdragon6]

Let's keep the introductions short. This thread is gonna be about High Godly Regeneration for TenSura. However, unlike the ones prior, it does not have anything to do with the Heart Core. Rather, I'll be introducing another fundamental separate from Mind and Soul. That is, the Astral Body.

What is the Astral Body​

If the Mind and Soul were aspects of existence, the Astral Body is the aspect that comes between them.

Topologically, the outermost body is the material body, the only "Physical Body", in other words, connected to the physical world, and behind that is the Spiritual Body in working. It's the outermost non-physical aspect. And after that, or well, before that, comes the Astral Body, the layer encompassing the Soul. All three of these are completely different in working

Purpose of Astral Body​

Going by the same order as described above, the material body is the one that holds physical existence in the world. The Spiritual Body is basically the virtual (non-physical) "Memory" (Mind), while the Astral Body is the Thought Computational Unit, the part used by the Soul to express thoughts and intention. However, just like how without the physical body, the mind cannot exist permanently (this is true only for normal humans or physical lifeforms), a material body is needed to act as a permanent storage. Otherwise, the Astral and Spiritual body will eventually cease to exist as well after expending all their (mental) energy (only in the physical world, of course, not the spiritual one)

In order to have physical presence in the world and physically intervene, one must have a physical body, or alternatively, outside the physical body, nothing physically exists/has presence

Simply say, the Astral Body is the vessel of the Soul

Independency of Astral Body​

Even if the brain is permanently damaged, memories can be recovered by the mind alone. However, if the Spiritual Body (Spirit) is damaged, that likely means the damage extends to the Astral Body as well, which makes recovery impossible

Even more so, there are some beings, those with the <Perfect Memory> skill for instance, that can think purely with their soul and astral body alone, thus, even if one tries to harm or control their Spiritual Body (Spirit), the attacks are neutralized since they can store with their astral bodies alone<And even if their physical body is damaged, such as their heads getting blown off, they can still regenerate However, for those that can only think with their Spiritual body, existing as an Astral body alone is impossible

For such beings, even if the Spiritual Body (Spirit) is destroyed, they can survive purely with their Astral body. A downside, however, is that one may be significantly weakened and lose some of their power if the Spiritual body is destroyed, because Power (Force) is accumulated in the Spiritual body. Additionally, it's implied that for such beings, if the Astral body is destroyed, they are erased from existence itself. Of course, there are always exceptions, such as those with a better regeneration skill.

Additionally, destroying the Spiritual body does not mean the Astral body will also simultaneously be destroyed by necessity

Astral Body as a Fundamental Aspect​

In essence, the Astral Body is made up of magicules. That is true at least for monsters (a large variety of creatures, simply any life-form that isn't human or demi-human)

Even if the Physical body and Spiritual Body is damaged/destroyed, they can still regenerate as long as their Soul (and Astral body, its vessel) exist. However, if the supply of magicules is cut, the being is unable to maintain their existence at all, and is erased. That is, as magicules are the essence which makes up a monster, without it, they are erased from existence itself.

Conclusion​

From all of the above, the conclusion is that the Astral Body is another fundamental aspect separate from the Mind (Spiritual Body) and the Soul. Therefore, coming back from the destruction of all three warrants High-Godly levels of Regeneration/Resurrection. This means that any case of Soul regeneration, unless it's stated that the previous forms covering it were not destroyed, is classified as HGR.

Agree:

Neutral:

Disagree:

 

[SweetDao]

Watching.

 

[Robo432343]

Unwatching.

But you need an aspect for HGR: narrative, info or concept. Which aspect does this fit into?

 

[Tempestdragon6]

Unwatching.

But you need an aspect for HGR: narrative, info or concept. Which aspect does this fit into?

info and concept

 

[Tempestdragon6]

I'll be sleeping for now I'll be back later

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

Shouldn't regenerating one fundamental aspect be enough for HGR ?

 

[Robo432343]

Shouldn't regenerating one fundamental aspect be enough for HGR ?

yes

 

[SweetDao]

yes

prove it

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

Astral Body as a Fundamental Aspect​

In essence, the Astral Body is made up of magicules. That is true at least for monsters (a large variety of creatures, simply any life-form that isn't human or demi-human)

Even if the Physical body and Spiritual Body is damaged/destroyed, they can still regenerate as long as their Soul (and Astral body, its vessel) exist. However, if the supply of magicules is cut, the being is unable to maintain their existence at all, and is erased. That is, as magicules are the essence which makes up a monster, without it, they are erased from existence itself

This proves that the magicules are a fundamental aspect of existence not the astral body

 

[Bahaha]

Even if this proves the Astral Body is a fundamental aspect of existence, the Astral Body still wouldn't be more fundamental than the soul.. It would be less fundamental because the Astral Body, in essence, is a step between the physical body and the soul. Therefore, HGR isn't really possible with this alone..

 

[Pluto321]

following

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

Unwatching.

But you need an aspect for HGR: narrative, info or concept. Which aspect does this fit into?

You don't need to fit an in-verse aspect with a one-to-one correspondence with vsbw popular aspects. As long as the qualifications for being a fundamental aspect are met, it's fine.

Even if this proves the Astral Body is a fundamental aspect of existence, the Astral Body still wouldn't be more fundamental than the soul.. It would be less fundamental because the Astral Body, in essence, is a step between the physical body and the soul. Therefore, HGR isn't really possible with this alone..

You don't need an aspect "beyond" the soul. The Regen page explicitly mentions "another fundamental aspect other than the Soul, Mind and Physical Body". There is no mention of the order of aspects.

This proves that the magicules are a fundamental aspect of existence not the astral body

Magicules constitute the Astral body. But individual magicules mean nothing. Is Regen from matter destruction Low godly Regen? No, it's destruction from the entire physical body, the collection of all matter of an individual. Same Principe applies here

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

You don't need an aspect "beyond" the soul. The Regen page explicitly mentions "another fundamental aspect other than the Soul, Mind and Physical Body". There is no mention of the order of aspects.

If that's the case, then why do we have regeneration in order starting from Low Godly and increasing to High Godly ? The aspects being regenerated in MGR is more fundamental than LGR, same goes for the difference between MGR and HGR.

By your logic, if a verse has fundamental aspects like body, Soul, mind and concept and if a character just comes back from mere mind destruction, it too would be HGR, because mind is different than the other 3 fundamental aspects of existence and there is no Order for fundamentals ?

Magicules constitute the Astral body. But individual magicules mean nothing. Is Regen from matter destruction Low godly Regen? No, it's destruction from the entire physical body, the collection of all matter of an individual. Same Principe applies here.

Isn't the Magicule simply there to maintain the existence of the Astral body ? As for the Astral body itself, what aspect of existence does it govern ? From the OP, it seems to be something that acts as the source for thoughts and intentions for the soul to use.

Also, even if by some reason it gains HGR on whom would this apply to ? Just Monsters ? Because the thing doesn't apply to humans as stated by the scan.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

If it's something between the physical body and soul I don't see why it wouldn't be disqualified from HGR based on this?

in addition it must not be something that would ordinarily be restored by regenerating body, mind, or soul.

 

[Verlice_tempest]

This proves that the magicules are a fundamental aspect of existence not the astral body

Astral body does constitute of Magicules and OP already explained astral body as fundamental

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

this entire thing looks undercooked a good bit.

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

You don't need to fit an in-verse aspect with a one-to-one correspondence with vsbw popular aspects. As long as the qualifications for being a fundamental aspect are met, it's fine.

You don't need an aspect "beyond" the soul. The Regen page explicitly mentions "another fundamental aspect other than the Soul, Mind and Physical Body". There is no mention of the order of aspects.

Magicules constitute the Astral body. But individual magicules mean nothing. Is Regen from matter destruction Low godly Regen? No, it's destruction from the entire physical body, the collection of all matter of an individual. Same Principe applies here

Astral body does constitute of Magicules and OP already explained astral body as fundamental

The astral body wouldn't exist without the magicules and the OP says the lack of magicules is what causes the existence to cease , characters in the verse can survive without the astral body

 

[Verlice_tempest]

If that's the case, then why do we have regeneration in order starting from Low Godly and increasing to High Godly ? The aspects being regenerated in MGR is more fundamental than LGR, same goes for the difference between MGR and HGR.

By your logic, if a verse has fundamental aspects like body, Soul, mind and concept and if a character just comes back from mere mind destruction, it too would be HGR, because mind is different than the other 3 fundamental aspects of existence and there is no Order for fundamentals ?

Astral body is deeper than the non physical aspect(spiritual body) the soul in tensura isn't just general soul but way more fundamental so the "order" still follows and astral body remains fundamental

No? Bcs mind in context must be established as fundamental of existence for HGR

Isn't the Magicule simply there to maintain the existence of the Astral body ? As for the Astral body itself, what aspect of existence does it govern ? From the OP, it seems to be something that acts as the source for thoughts and intentions for the soul to use.

Also, even if by some reason it gains HGR on whom would this apply to ? Just Monsters ? Because the thing doesn't apply to humans as stated by the scan.

It's literally stated to be madeup of Magicules rather than acting as something that maintains it, Magicules itself are conceptual in nature anyway, we don't rly have to follow the popular " aspects" in vsbw, it's justified as fundamental of existence, but it can be said as computational device for soul, yes just monsters, it's not necessary for every being inverse to have a same fundamental part lmao

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

Astral body is deeper than the non physical aspect(spiritual body) the soul in tensura isn't just general soul but way more fundamental so the "order" still follows and astral body remains fundamental

The OP says it's something in between. First comes, physical body, then the astral body and finally the Spiritual body.

No? Bcs mind in context must be established as fundamental of existence for HGR

We need to prove that mind exists fundamental to even the other aspects present for existence to pass for HGR. Don't see the same for Astral body.

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

It's literally stated to be madeup of Magicules rather than acting as something that maintains it,

Which still entails the same thing as I said, it's made up of magicules, so magicules maintains its shape.

Magicules itself are conceptual in nature anyway, we don't rly have to follow the popular " aspects" in vsbw,

And ? What's the relevance of this line ? You still need to define what aspects Astral body governs whether or not they follows "popular aspects" in vsbw and it would still fall within those mentioned aspects.

yes just monsters, it's not necessary for every being inverse to have a same fundamental part lmao

Did I say that it's necessary ?

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

If that's the case, then why do we have regeneration in order starting from Low Godly and increasing to High Godly ? The aspects being regenerated in MGR is more fundamental than LGR, same goes for the difference between MGR and HGR.

By your logic, if a verse has fundamental aspects like body, Soul, mind and concept and if a character just comes back from mere mind destruction, it too would be HGR, because mind is different than the other 3 fundamental aspects of existence and there is no Order for fundamentals ?

The difference between LGR and MGR is based on what is harder to destroy, physical body or spiritual aspects and Soul.If the being doesn't have a physical body, we give it MGR for regenerating from Soul destruction, and if it doesn't have a Soul, we also give it MGR for regeneration from complete physical destruction. It's as simple as that.While the difference between MGR and HGR is based on the amount of fundamental aspects being destroyed. That is clearly what the page says:

The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, soul, and at least one other fundamental aspect of a character's existence.

There's literally no mention of order.

Isn't the Magicule simply there to maintain the existence of the Astral body ? As for the Astral body itself, what aspect of existence does it govern ? From the OP, it seems to be something that acts as the source for thoughts and intentions for the soul to use.

Also, even if by some reason it gains HGR on whom would this apply to ? Just Monsters ? Because the thing doesn't apply to humans as stated by the scan.

No, magicules are what makes the Astral Body instead. The scan clearly says And the Astral Bodies of monsters are made up of magicules .I'd assume u want the raws for this just in case, so here:

物のアストラル・ボディー星 幽 体は魔素で構成されているので、このエネルギーの拡散さえ防げれば、魂を閉じ込める事が出来ると考えられた。

An MTL gave the same results as the otl, but just in case, go ahead and confirm it from the tl thread if you want. The result would be the same, tho, but I'm givin the raws in case anyone has any doubts.

And yes, it's the source of thoughts and all that, but it's never given a name as a fundamental aspect, like Mind and Soul.

And yes, it only applies to monsters so far. Though "monster" itself is a broad term that encompasses any being other than humans. We do not know yet what makes up the astral body of humans.

The astral body wouldn't exist without the magicules and the OP says the lack of magicules is what causes the existence to cease , characters in the verse can survive without the astral body

That literally supports what I said. You haven't actually negated anything I said, such as the example regarding matter and the entirety of one's matter (Physical body).

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

That literally supports what I said. You haven't actually negated anything I said, such as the example regarding matter and the entirety of one's matter (Physical body).

This proves that the magicules are more fundamental than the astral body plus there's nothing stating that the magicules found in a monsters body are found in only in the astral body so that the destruction of the astral body results in destruction of all magicules in the body , there is nothing here that supports that the astral body is a fundamental aspect .
What aspect of existence does the astral body govern exactly here ?

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

This proves that the magicules are more fundamental than the astral body plus there's nothing stating that the magicules found in a monsters body are found in only in the astral body so that the destruction of the astral body results in destruction of all magicules in the body , there is nothing here that supports that the astral body is a fundamental aspect .
What aspect of existence does the astral body govern exactly here ?

That changes nothing because as a whole, it's still the Astral Body upon destruction of which beings will cease to exist.

"there's nothing stating that the magicules found in monsters body are found in only the astral body" bro what??

So the destruction of the astral body results in destruction of all magicules. There is nothing that supports that the astral body is a fundamental aspect

The astral body is simply a sum-it-all term for all magicules in a being. Your latter statement is the same as saying that because physical body is made of matter, matter is the fundamental aspect not the physical body, even though both literally mean the same thing. The phyical body IS the cumulation of all physical matter of a person, while the astral body is that for magicules.

But does destruction of the matter of an arm and regen from that gives you LGR? Absolutely not. The physical body needs to be completely destroyed for that.

Same here. The Astral Body (the cumulation of all magicules) as a whole is what serves as an entire, actual fundamental aspect.

Your argument doesn't stem from opposition to my statements, but simply not understanding the difference between a whole aspect and what makes up that aspect to begin with.

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

That changes nothing because as a whole, it's still the Astral Body upon destruction of which beings will cease to exist.

This has never been proven anywhere here

The astral body is simply a sum-it-all term for all magicules in a being. Your latter statement is the same as saying that because physical body is made of matter, matter is the fundamental aspect not the physical body, even though both literally mean the same thing. The phyical body IS the cumulation of all physical matter of a person, while the astral body is that for magicules

Aspect A governing aspect B is no proof for aspect B being fundamental in regards to regeneration, there is no proof to say all the magicules are found in the astral body ,
There people like twilight who can survive only with the heart core without the astral body ,demons and those with infinity regeneration are also in the same category
Spiritual life forms can regenerate as long as there magicules and their heart core is intact,the OP is yet to prove that the astral body is fundamental
And even if the astral body was to be a fundamental aspect ,it still wouldn't qualify as HGR ,since the core which is the mind is still intact

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

The difference between LGR and MGR is based on what is harder to destroy, physical body or spiritual aspects and Soul.If the being doesn't have a physical body, we give it MGR for regenerating from Soul destruction, and if it doesn't have a Soul, we also give it MGR for regeneration from complete physical destruction. It's as simple as that.While the difference between MGR and HGR is based on the amount of fundamental aspects being destroyed. That is clearly what the page says:

There's literally no mention of order.

And that "what is harder to destroy" is a difference that comes into play because of the levels of fundamentality of aspects. The only argument from your side is that "there is no mention of order", which is just a claptrap notion since the difference of levels of regeneration itself is the answer, reducing the need of redundant repetition.

The additional aspect in question needs to be more fundamental than the prior ones to be qualified as HGR, similar to cases of MGR where something more fundamental than the body, such as soul or mind is also being regenerated giving the regeneration its essence, rather simply being chalked up as "regenerating two fundamental aspects of existence" like you are going with.

How I see it as, either the soul or the Astral body needs to be the fundamental of all and it's regeneration alongside the other aspects would grant it HGR. But having said that I have several issues with OP.

But before I get into that ....

No, magicules are what makes the Astral Body instead. The scan clearly says And the Astral Bodies of monsters are made up of magicules .I'd assume u want the raws for this just in case, so here:

I don't get what difference y'all are finding with what I said ? If a wall is made up of bricks and I say that the bricks maintain the shape of the world, what does it change ? Nothing exactly. So why bother to say this ?

Anyways

This means that any case of Soul regeneration, unless it's stated that the previous forms covering it were not destroyed, is classified as HGR.

Contrary to what the OP concludes, which is the soul being the fundamental of all, scans and their context such as these...

Purpose of Astral Body​

Going by the same order as described above, the material body is the one that holds physical existence in the world. The Spiritual Body is basically the virtual (non-physical) "Memory" (Mind), while the Astral Body is the Thought Computational Unit, the part used by the Soul to express thoughts and intention. However, just like how without the physical body, the mind cannot exist permanently (this is true only for normal humans or physical lifeforms), a material body is needed to act as a permanent storage.

In essence, the Astral Body is made up of magicules. That is true at least for monsters (a large variety of creatures, simply any life-form that isn't human or demi-human)

However, if the supply of magicules is cut, the being is unable to maintain their existence at all, and is erased.

..they inherently suggest the Astral body is something fundamental to even the soul and even supports the soul, because destruction of the Astral body destroys the soul, which in turn destroys the spiritual body and the physical body. Similarly, strengthening the vessel (Astral body) is said to pen up the souls properly and prevent them from loosing energy.

That on itself looks pretty good for the HGR part isn't it ? Actually no, the issue shows itself when you try re-reading the context of the Astral body. It's not really a stand alone, independent, fundamental aspect of existence but rather a supporting anchor for the soul, mainly.

For such beings, even if the Spiritual Body (Spirit) is destroyed, they can survive purely with their Astral body. A downside, however, is that one may be significantly weakened and lose some of their power if the Spiritual body is destroyed, because Power (Force) is accumulated in the Spiritual body. ​

Upon reading both the scans from this part, quite the opposite is found to be happening within them as compared to what the OP describes in their justification.

They say that upon destruction of the Spiritual body, beings exists "purely with their Astral body" suggesting that it's stand alone and independent, but in the scans the presence of the soul is still mentioned, which means that the soul has always been present alongside the Astral body at times of destruction of mind and body. With beings regenerating their mind and body over time.

Among the topological forms of an existence, the mind, the soul and body are the pillar fundamental of the existence with :-

-> the mind being an aspect for the existence' control over thoughts.

-> the soul being the consciousness for the existence.

-> physical body being a medium for the existence to have substance.

whereas the Astral body doesn't have direct relation with existence. It is an aspect that acts as the fence and a ground for thoughts and emotions to be accessible to the soul and the mind and supports the soul, rather than being an aspect of existence itself.

So rather than being something more fundamental than the prior 3 aspects of existence, Astral body and the soul are pretty much intertwined with each other, with. During regeneration beings resurrect themselves from the soul and the Astral body, which at the end of the day sounds like a good chunk of LGR to me.

Now onto add, there are other certain issues in the OP such as cases like these, where they first say this
↓

However, if the Spiritual Body (Spirit) is damaged, that likely means the damage extends to the Astral Body as well, which makes recovery impossible

But after that they go onto say this in the same category of title
↓

Additionally, destroying the Spiritual body does not mean the Astral body will also simultaneously be destroyed by necessity

Furthermore, the scan states something else. It shows Hinata's spiritual body being eaten opon, and in line, the damage would extent to the Astral body as well, leaving the option of resurrection impossible. So I dunno why the justification is written like this.

At a glance, this seems like all the fundamental aspects that the OP brought up are all interconnected with each other, with the destruction of soul destroying the mind and body, with the destruction of the Astral body the soul dissipating, and even the destruction of the mind can lead to damage to soul and make resurrection impossible, does HGR supposed to have factors like this into consideration ?

But having knowing that, we still have this case where destruction of the mind didn't lead to destruction of the Soul (which they state to be a miracle).
↓

Even if the Physical body and Spiritual Body is damaged/destroyed, they can still regenerate as long as their Soul (and Astral body, its vessel) exist.

For such beings, even if the Spiritual Body (Spirit) is destroyed, they can survive purely with their Astral body.

So it seems that there are cases where Astral body and soul survives while in some cases it doesn't. Depending on that, there can be differences in regeneration with LGR being the former and MGR being the latter (and funnily their LGR is overtime while MGR is combat applicable, going through the Death dragon example).

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

This has never been proven anywhere here

Aspect A governing aspect B is no proof for aspect B being fundamental in regards to regeneration, there is no proof to say all the magicules are found in the astral body ,

Magicules ARE a spiritual substance, not something physical (unless referring to solidified magicules, which are another thing entirely). There is no other place for them other than the Astral Body, since we know the Soul and Heart Core are NOT made of magicules. (Soul is made up of Spiritual Particles while Heart Core is made up of Data Particles).
We also know the Death Dragon was regenerating from Spiritual body destruction since his Astral Body (Supply of magicules) is not destroyed. That is in the OP itself.



So your whole point becomes irrelevant.

There people like twilight who can survive only with the heart core without the astral body ,demons and those with infinity regeneration are also in the same category

For Twilight, he can even regenerate from the Soul, and can survive with just his Heart Core. Because Heart Core is ultimately beyond the Astral Body in being a fundamental aspect, it's even beyond the Soul itself. So that example is literally unusable here since this thread only argues about stuff up to Soul. The OP introduction mentions that this thread has NOTHING to do with the Heart Core.



Infinite Regeneration (baseline) like the one Shion has allows one to regenerate the Soul as long as the heart core exists. So the same principle as Twilight applies here; That is, that is unrelated to this CRT.

Spiritual life forms can regenerate as long as there magicules and their heart core is intact,the OP is yet to prove that the astral body is fundamental

Spiritual Lifeforms die with Soul destruction. We have no case of it being stated otherwise without the intervention of Skills like Infinite Regeneration. They can resurrect, yeah, but overtime, and not regenerate. Two different things. And even then, unrelated to this thread as this thread only covers upto the Soul. Nothing beyond.

The whole "Astral Body as a Fundamental Aspect" heading is literally dedicated to proving that the Astral Body IS a fundamental aspect. The "Independency of Astral Body" does the same. Other readers of the thread seems to agree so far after reading that. I know opinions can vary, but this level of ignorance is just too much bruh.

And even if the astral body was to be a fundamental aspect ,it still wouldn't qualify as HGR ,since the core which is the mind is still intact

Scans about the Core being the mind? Because the scans in the OP clearly prove that Spiritual Body is the mind instead lmao.

And that "what is harder to destroy" is a difference that comes into play because of the levels of fundamentality of aspects. The only argument from your side is that "there is no mention of order", which is just a claptrap notion since the difference of levels of regeneration itself is the answer, reducing the need of redundant repetition.

Your claims literally have no line of the page backing them. Needing a more fundamental aspect? Quote where it says "more fundamental" and not "another fundamental" aspect. The case here is that a fundamental aspect takes the place of what the mind would have been. With all other aspects being more fundamental than their regular counterparts.

The argument from my side is based on the actual wording of the page and the lack of statements against my claims. While none of your claims are actually backed up by what's actually stated on the regeneration page.

The additional aspect in question needs to be more fundamental than the prior ones to be qualified as HGR, similar to cases of MGR where something more fundamental than the body, such as soul or mind is also being regenerated giving the regeneration its essence, rather simply being chalked up as "regenerating two fundamental aspects of existence" like you are going with.

Like I said previously, what is stopping them from being more fundamental than normal souls and minds? Therefore having a different order.

How I see it as, either the soul or the Astral body needs to be the fundamental of all and its regeneration alongside the other aspects would grant it HGR. But having said that I have several issues with OP.

But before I get into that ....

I don't get what difference y'all are finding with what I said ? If a wall is made up of bricks and I say that the bricks maintain the shape of the world, what does it change ? Nothing exactly. So why bother to say this ?

Anyways

Contrary to what the OP concludes, which is the soul being the fundamental of all, scans and their context such as these...



..they inherently suggest the Astral body is something fundamental to even the soul and even supports the soul, because destruction of the Astral body destroys the soul, which in turn destroys the spiritual body and the physical body. Similarly, strengthening the vessel (Astral body) is said to pen up the souls properly and prevent them from loosing energy.

That on itself looks pretty good for the HGR part isn't it ? Actually no, the issue shows itself when you try re-reading the context of the Astral body. It's not really a stand alone, independent, fundamental aspect of existence but rather a supporting anchor for the soul, mainly.

Upon reading both the scans from this part, quite the opposite is found to be happening within them as compared to what the OP describes in their justification.

They say that upon destruction of the Spiritual body, beings exists "purely with their Astral body" suggesting that it's stand alone and independent, but in the scans the presence of the soul is still mentioned, which means that the soul has always been present alongside the Astral body at times of destruction of mind and body. With beings regenerating their mind and body over time.

Among the topological forms of an existence, the mind, the soul and body are the pillar fundamental of the existence with :-

-> the mind being an aspect for the existence' control over thoughts.

-> the soul being the consciousness for the existence.

-> physical body being a medium for the existence to have substance.

whereas the Astral body doesn't have direct relation with existence. It is an aspect that acts as the fence and a ground for thoughts and emotions to be accessible to the soul and the mind and supports the soul, rather than being an aspect of existence itself.

Your whole interpretation of order of layers in tensura is just wrong. The destruction of the astral body doesn't destroy the soul, it just says the damage may reach the soul since the astral body contains the soul, and the spiritual body contains the astral body.

The souls don't lose energy that way because the astral body is the container of the soul. Ever wondered why we don't give everyone AE on Souls? Because not all beings can exist purely as souls. Most of the time the soul simply dissipates because the character can't exist in that state alone for long.

So rather than being something more fundamental than the prior 3 aspects of existence, Astral body and the soul are pretty much intertwined with each other, with. During regeneration beings resurrect themselves from the soul and the Astral body, which at the end of the day sounds like a good chunk of LGR to me.

Now onto add, there are other certain issues in the OP such as cases like these, where they first say this
↓

But after that they go onto say this in the same category of title
↓

Your mistaking the whole fiction of the astral body and the point of the OP.

The astral body is independent as the OP claims, sure, but it's topological order is also mentioned. Just like how the spiritual body contains the astral body, the astral body contains the soul, the soul contains the heart core, and so on.

Each layer encompasses/contains the one beyond it.

But if let's say the spiritual body is destroyed, some beings can exist in their astral body. But if the astral body is destroyed, they die because they cannot exist beyond that.

This thread simply doesn't discuss about beings exiting independently, which I guess is the reason why you thought the Soul is one with the Astral Body.

But it's evidentially not. Some examples:

Chaos Dragon having his astral and spiritual body destroyed, existed as soul that Rimuru consumed (and later revived the whole thing)

We also have another example of Luminous being able to receive a being as long as the Soul remains, even if the astral and spiritual bodies are destroyed both.

Furthermore, the scan states something else. It shows Hinata's spiritual body being eaten opon, and in line, the damage would extent to the Astral body as well, leaving the option of resurrection impossible. So I dunno why the justification is written like this.

That doesn't change anything. The whole point is that the attack destroys the Spiritual body FIRST, and the spiritual body afterwards. Both are destroyed not at once, like the astral body getting destroyed when the spiritual body is erased, and instead are being destroyed one by one.

That is further backed up by the Death Dragon's case.

At a glance, this seems like all the fundamental aspects that the OP brought up are all interconnected with each other, with the destruction of soul destroying the mind and body, with the destruction of the Astral body the soul dissipating, and even the destruction of the mind can lead to damage to soul and make resurrection impossible, does HGR supposed to have factors like this into consideration ?

But having knowing that, we still have this case where destruction of the mind didn't lead to destruction of the Soul (which they state to be a miracle).
↓

The fundamental aspects are connected in a way that they contain each other. But a higher fundamental aspect can exist without all the lower fundamental aspects IF the being can exist as that higher fundamental aspect alone.

For instance, the Soul can exist even if the lower layers like astral, spiritual and physical bodies are destroyed.

The astral body can exist even if the Spiritual body is destroyed, which is backed up by Kazaream's case of existing purely as an astral body after the spiritual and physical one were nuked by Leon.

So it seems that there are cases where Astral body and soul survives while in some cases it doesn't. Depending on that, there can be differences in regeneration with LGR being the former and MGR being the latter (and funnily their LGR is overtime while MGR is combat applicable, going through the Death dragon example).

You're basically confusing the whole thing up, as I explained above.

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

Your claims literally have no line of the page backing them. Needing a more fundamental aspect? Quote where it says "more fundamental" and not "another fundamental" aspect. The case here is that a fundamental aspect takes the place of what the mind would have been. With all other aspects being more fundamental than their regular counterparts.


The argument from my side is based on the actual wording of the page and the lack of statements against my claims. While none of your claims are actually backed up by what's actually stated on the regeneration page.

This is absurd, I keep on explaining the context and your only argument is "show me quote". The page is not there to spoon feed you every meaning and words, the context is just as necessary.

If it was a matter of just "quantity" of aspects being regenerated, then having both mind and soul regeneration would be granting you HGR, wouldn't it ?

Regeneration of body - LGR
Regeneration of mind - MGR
Regeneration of Soul (another aspect of existence) - HGR

But somehow vsbw puts soul and mind regeneration at both MGR. Why is that ? Because soul and mind aren't by default one above the other in being more fundamental. Similarly you'll have verses where regenerating souls gives them HGR because they proved that souls are something more fundamental than mind, and are conceptual essences.

Take other examples of the HGR section, they show examples for aspects like narrative and concept, metaphysical essences like those are by default fundamental to mere soul and mind, the entire reason of bringing more fundamental aspects into play is to prove that destruction of such aspects would lead to the totality of an existence to be erased. And when you regenerate them all together, it's godly regeneration.

So without levels of fundamentality I don't see how you will prove that destruction of one such aspects leads to the total erasure of a being on all levels. That much should be easily understandable to you, if you should stop the cherry picking of "no quote = no evidence".

Ofc, by all means you are free to not share my opinion, that's why mods exists. So if all you have is another repetition of what you said now, then don't bother to reply because it will get promptly ignored by me. I don't want to go in circular and derail the thread.

Like I said previously, what is stopping them from being more fundamental than normal souls and minds? Therefore having a different order.

The point isn't even that ? Whether or not they act like typical soul or mind is of no concern here.

Your whole interpretation of order of layers in tensura is just wrong. The destruction of the astral body doesn't destroy the soul, it just says the damage may reach the soul since the astral body contains the soul, and the spiritual body contains the astral body.

What I said was the "destruction or damage of spritual body (mind) leads to the same of the Astral body", and also yes scans from the OP itself shows how Astral body destruction leads to total destruction of a being. Like the first example of the Death dragon. He could regenerate from his soul, but disappeared the instant the magic supply to his Astral body was cut off.

The souls don't lose energy that way because the astral body is the container of the soul. Ever wondered why we don't give everyone AE on Souls? Because not all beings can exist purely as souls. Most of the time the soul simply dissipates because the character can't exist in that state alone for long.

I never argued for Soul loosing energy while they are contained within the Astral body. What I said was without the Astral body, the Souls starts to dissipate their energy, but if the Astral body is properly ensured, then it pens up the souls.

So I dunno what ru on about here.

Your mistaking the whole fiction of the astral body and the point of the OP.

The astral body is independent as the OP claims, sure, but it's topological order is also mentioned. Just like how the spiritual body contains the astral body, the astral body contains the soul, the soul contains the heart core, and so on.

Ok and ? What argument of mine was against it ?

Each layer encompasses/contains the one beyond it.

But if let's say the spiritual body is destroyed, some beings can exist in their astral body. But if the astral body is destroyed, they die because they cannot exist beyond that.

Ok ? They still exist with their soul and their Astral body and even if those are destroyed, resurrection becomes impossible. Something which I already acknowledged in my reply, so where's the wrong in it ?

This thread simply doesn't discuss about beings exiting independently, which I guess is the reason why you thought the Soul is one with the Astral Body.

Point to be clarified, I never claimed soul and Astral body to be "one", what I said was that they are interlinked, quite the difference.

As for independence, it was brought up because OP trying to portray it astral body as a standalone independent aspect of existence, which I argued to be not.

But it's evidentially not. Some examples:

Chaos Dragon having his astral and spiritual body destroyed, existed as soul that Rimuru consumed (and later revived the whole thing)

We also have another example of Luminous being able to receive a being as long as the Soul remains, even if the astral and spiritual bodies are destroyed both.

Interesting,
If beings can still exist without their Astral body by being just a soul, why is the OP arguing that regenerating Soul is by default regeneration of other aspects of existences like the mind and body ? Sure, there is the example of Death Dragon, but this one seems to be an exception.

Yet I still don't see HGR here.

That doesn't change anything. The whole point is that the attack destroys the Spiritual body FIRST, and the spiritual body afterwards.

What ? You mean it attacks spiritual body first and the astral body next ?

Both are destroyed not at once, like the astral body getting destroyed when the spiritual body is erased, and instead are being destroyed one by one.

That is further backed up by the Death Dragon's case.

If the attack goes in line from spiritual body to Astral body, then it all the more shows there being a link. And as one of the scan even states that hamper to the Spiritual body can cause deep damage to Astral body itself.

The fundamental aspects are connected in a way that they contain each other. But a higher fundamental aspect can exist without all the lower fundamental aspects IF the being can exist as that higher fundamental aspect alone.

For instance, the Soul can exist even if the lower layers like astral, spiritual and physical bodies are destroyed.

Ok, once again, and ?
I'll just want to place the same argument of mine here, that I said above about generalization of soul regeneration as regeneration of even Astral body alongside mind and body.

But I still haven't seen a proof of Astral body being a fundamental aspects of existence itself, so far it still appears to be just a support for souls to properly exist.

The astral body can exist even if the Spiritual body is destroyed, which is backed up by Kazaream's case of existing purely as an astral body after the spiritual and physical one were nuked by Leon.

You're basically confusing the whole thing up, as I explained above.

I didn't confuse anything here
Leon's Astral body and soul were still present.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

This is absurd, I keep on explaining the context and your only argument is "show me quote". The page is not there to spoon feed you every meaning and words, the context is just as necessary.

If it was a matter of just "quantity" of aspects being regenerated, then having both mind and soul regeneration would be granting you HGR, wouldn't it ?

No. That isn’t even the argument.

Regeneration of body - LGR
Regeneration of mind - MGR
Regeneration of Soul (another aspect of existence) - HGR

But somehow vsbw puts soul and mind regeneration at both MGR. Why is that ? Because soul and mind aren't by default one above the other in being more fundamental. Similarly you'll have verses where regenerating souls gives them HGR because they proved that souls are something more fundamental than mind, and are conceptual essences.

The whole point of this thread is proving that .order just doesn’t matter


Post in thread 'Regeneration Mid/High Godly questions'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/regeneration-mid-high-godly-questions.176650/post-7196376

Take other examples of the HGR section, they show examples for aspects like narrative and concept, metaphysical essences like those are by default fundamental to mere soul and mind, the entire reason of bringing more fundamental aspects into play is to prove that destruction of such aspects would lead to the totality of an existence to be erased. And when you regenerate them all together, it's godly regeneration.

So without levels of fundamentality I don't see how you will prove that destruction of one such aspects leads to the total erasure of a being on all levels. That much should be easily understandable to you, if you should stop the cherry picking of "no quote = no evidence".

Ofc, by all means you are free to not share my opinion, that's why mods exists. So if all you have is another repetition of what you said now, then don't bother to reply because it will get promptly ignored by me. I don't want to go in circular and derail the thread.

The point isn't even that ? Whether or not they act like typical soul or mind is of no concern here.

What I said was the "destruction or damage of spritual body (mind) leads to the same of the Astral body", and also yes scans from the OP itself shows how Astral body destruction leads to total destruction of a being. Like the first example of the Death dragon. He could regenerate from his soul, but disappeared the instant the magic supply to his Astral body was cut off.

I never argued for Soul loosing energy while they are contained within the Astral body. What I said was without the Astral body, the Souls starts to dissipate their energy, but if the Astral body is properly ensured, then it pens up the souls.

So I dunno what ru on about here.

Ok and ? What argument of mine was against it ?

Ok ? They still exist with their soul and their Astral body and even if those are destroyed, resurrection becomes impossible. Something which I already acknowledged in my reply, so where's the wrong in it ?

Point to be clarified, I never claimed soul and Astral body to be "one", what I said was that they are interlinked, quite the difference.

As for independence, it was brought up because OP trying to portray it astral body as a standalone independent aspect of existence, which I argued to be not.

Interesting,
If beings can still exist without their Astral body by being just a soul, why is the OP arguing that regenerating Soul is by default regeneration of other aspects of existences like the mind and body ? Sure, there is the example of Death Dragon, but this one seems to be an exception.

Yet I still don't see HGR here.

What ? You mean it attacks spiritual body first and the astral body next ?

If the attack goes in line from spiritual body to Astral body, then it all the more shows there being a link. And as one of the scan even states that hamper to the Spiritual body can cause deep damage to Astral body itself.

Ok, once again, and ?
I'll just want to place the same argument of mine here, that I said above about generalization of soul regeneration as regeneration of even Astral body alongside mind and body.

But I still haven't seen a proof of Astral body being a fundamental aspects of existence itself, so far it still appears to be just a support for souls to properly exist.


I didn't confuse anything here
Leon's Astral body and soul were still present.

Will get to this tomorrow since it is 1 am for me

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

No. That isn’t even the argument.

...

The whole point of this thread is proving that .order just doesn’t matter


Post in thread 'Regeneration Mid/High Godly questions'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/regeneration-mid-high-godly-questions.176650/post-7196376

The order in which they are placed within a scenario doesn't matter, the fundamental levels of them tho ? It matters, because as I said before, it's only total erasure, if the erasure happened to the most fundamental aspect.

Will get to this tomorrow since it is 1 am for me

Welp, it's 2 am for me.
Tomorrow it is ig, but don't expect any replies before tomorrow 6 pm.

 

[Tempestdragon6]

Magicules ARE a spiritual substance, not something physical (unless referring to solidified magicules, which are another thing entirely). There is no other place for them other than the Astral Body, since we know the Soul and Heart Core are NOT made of magicules. (Soul is made up of Spiritual Particles while Heart Core is made up of Data Particles).
We also know the Death Dragon was regenerating from Spiritual body destruction since his Astral Body (Supply of magicules) is not destroyed. That is in the OP itself.



So your whole point becomes irrelevant.


For Twilight, he can even regenerate from the Soul, and can survive with just his Heart Core. Because Heart Core is ultimately beyond the Astral Body in being a fundamental aspect, it's even beyond the Soul itself. So that example is literally unusable here since this thread only argues about stuff up to Soul. The OP introduction mentions that this thread has NOTHING to do with the Heart Core.



Infinite Regeneration (baseline) like the one Shion has allows one to regenerate the Soul as long as the heart core exists. So the same principle as Twilight applies here; That is, that is unrelated to this CRT.

Spiritual Lifeforms die with Soul destruction. We have no case of it being stated otherwise without the intervention of Skills like Infinite Regeneration. They can resurrect, yeah, but overtime, and not regenerate. Two different things. And even then, unrelated to this thread as this thread only covers upto the Soul. Nothing beyond.

The whole "Astral Body as a Fundamental Aspect" heading is literally dedicated to proving that the Astral Body IS a fundamental aspect. The "Independency of Astral Body" does the same. Other readers of the thread seems to agree so far after reading that. I know opinions can vary, but this level of ignorance is just too much bruh.

Scans about the Core being the mind? Because the scans in the OP clearly prove that Spiritual Body is the mind instead lmao.



Your claims literally have no line of the page backing them. Needing a more fundamental aspect? Quote where it says "more fundamental" and not "another fundamental" aspect. The case here is that a fundamental aspect takes the place of what the mind would have been. With all other aspects being more fundamental than their regular counterparts.

The argument from my side is based on the actual wording of the page and the lack of statements against my claims. While none of your claims are actually backed up by what's actually stated on the regeneration page.

Like I said previously, what is stopping them from being more fundamental than normal souls and minds? Therefore having a different order.

Your whole interpretation of order of layers in tensura is just wrong. The destruction of the astral body doesn't destroy the soul, it just says the damage may reach the soul since the astral body contains the soul, and the spiritual body contains the astral body.

The souls don't lose energy that way because the astral body is the container of the soul. Ever wondered why we don't give everyone AE on Souls? Because not all beings can exist purely as souls. Most of the time the soul simply dissipates because the character can't exist in that state alone for long.

Your mistaking the whole fiction of the astral body and the point of the OP.

The astral body is independent as the OP claims, sure, but it's topological order is also mentioned. Just like how the spiritual body contains the astral body, the astral body contains the soul, the soul contains the heart core, and so on.

Each layer encompasses/contains the one beyond it.

But if let's say the spiritual body is destroyed, some beings can exist in their astral body. But if the astral body is destroyed, they die because they cannot exist beyond that.

This thread simply doesn't discuss about beings exiting independently, which I guess is the reason why you thought the Soul is one with the Astral Body.

But it's evidentially not. Some examples:

Chaos Dragon having his astral and spiritual body destroyed, existed as soul that Rimuru consumed (and later revived the whole thing)

We also have another example of Luminous being able to receive a being as long as the Soul remains, even if the astral and spiritual bodies are destroyed both.

That doesn't change anything. The whole point is that the attack destroys the Spiritual body FIRST, and the spiritual body afterwards. Both are destroyed not at once, like the astral body getting destroyed when the spiritual body is erased, and instead are being destroyed one by one.

That is further backed up by the Death Dragon's case.

The fundamental aspects are connected in a way that they contain each other. But a higher fundamental aspect can exist without all the lower fundamental aspects IF the being can exist as that higher fundamental aspect alone.

For instance, the Soul can exist even if the lower layers like astral, spiritual and physical bodies are destroyed.

The astral body can exist even if the Spiritual body is destroyed, which is backed up by Kazaream's case of existing purely as an astral body after the spiritual and physical one were nuked by Leon.

You're basically confusing the whole thing up, as I explained above.

thanks for explaining it to them I was about but you beat me into it

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

Magicules ARE a spiritual substance, not something physical (unless referring to solidified magicules, which are another thing entirely). There is no other place for them other than the Astral Body, since we know the Soul and Heart Core are NOT made of magicules. (Soul is made up of Spiritual Particles while Heart Core is made up of Data Particles).
We also know the Death Dragon was regenerating from Spiritual body destruction since his Astral Body (Supply of magicules) is not destroyed. That is in the OP itself.

Magicules are also found within the spiritual body ,

As the Great Sage explained, there were three types of topological forms
in the world: astral bodies, the weakest form that surrounds the soul; spiritual
bodies, which can form a base upon which to build one’s internal force; and
material bodies, those directly connected with this world. The human body is
the combination of all three forms

---

For Twilight, he can even regenerate from the Soul, and can survive with just his Heart Core. Because Heart Core is ultimately beyond the Astral Body in being a fundamental aspect, it's even beyond the Soul itself. So that example is literally unusable here since this thread only argues about stuff up to Soul. The OP introduction mentions that this thread has NOTHING to do with the Heart Core.

if you are arguing that the astral body is a fundamental to their existence,the moment its erased there existence ceases even if the heart core is intact,if they continue to exist even after its erased ,then it means its not needed for their

---

existence

Spiritual Lifeforms die with Soul destruction. We have no case of it being stated otherwise without the intervention of Skills like Infinite Regeneration. They can resurrect, yeah, but overtime, and not regenerate. Two different things. And even then, unrelated to this thread as this thread only covers upto the Soul. Nothing beyond.

Its the inherent nature of spiritual life forms to resurrect when they die , which qualifies for regeneration but am dropping that topic

The whole "Astral Body as a Fundamental Aspect" heading is literally dedicated to proving that the Astral Body IS a fundamental aspect. The "Independency of Astral Body" does the same. Other readers of the thread seems to agree so far after reading that. I know opinions can vary, but this level of ignorance is just too much bruh.

Except its showing us that the magicules are whats needed for their existence not the astral body

Scans about the Core being the mind? Because the scans in the OP clearly prove that Spiritual Body is the mind instead lmao.

I personally thought the ego was the mind ,my bad if i mistaken

 

[Ultimuru]

Complicated stuff....

 

[Tempestdragon6]

Complicated stuff....

not that complicated

 

[CodeCCLL]

If it's something between the physical body and soul I don't see why it wouldn't be disqualified from HGR based on this?

Actually, what the wiki treats as "soul (in wiki terms)" corresponds to all of this three "astral body", "spritual/mental body" and "soul (in Tensura terms)" for Tensura. Therefore, anyone who has not been regenerate/resurrect from soul (in wiki terms) destruction in Tensura cannot have MGR or HGR. This would only be one of the top tier LGR.

It is a good CRT cuz of content, but I disagree.

 

[Tempestdragon6]

Actually, what the wiki treats as "soul (in wiki terms)" corresponds to all of this three "astral body", "spritual/mental body" and "soul (in Tensura terms)" for Tensura. Therefore, anyone who has not been regenerate/resurrect from soul (in wiki terms) destruction in Tensura cannot have MGR or HGR. This would only be one of the top tier LGR.

It is a good CRT cuz of content, but I disagree.

hmmm I'll do this one in September but thanks for giving your thoughts