Meliodas VS Isshiki (13-12-0)

[AlternativePrinciple]

Ishikki FRA

 

[R81handman]

Voting Isshiki cuz he can BFR to a dimension where time doesn't flow via Daikokutan and Shrink via sukukhona all maissma attacks and weapons and Ishhiki rods bypass durability and drain energy.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

The aura does need to resist anything. It simply blocks miasma from interacting with Isshikis body.

What is it going to do? Make Isshikis aura afraid and sick? It's not a living biological being so good luck with that.

As far as I'm aware those are perfectly shrinkable attacks.

It's not NLF because I'm not saying Isshiki resists them. He stops the attacks from even getting to his body.

Although feeling sick and fear manip absolutely can be bypassed through just willpower which Isshiki should have solid enough.

That's not at all how resisting layers works, but whatever ya'll seem intent on NLFing

 

[DavidTPPM]

That's not at all how resisting layers works,

That's epic because NOBODY is saying he's resisting it at all, but that it's not even going to get in contact with him to begin with.

but whatever ya'll seem intent on NLFing

 

[DavidTPPM]

Yeah if this is all there is to Melodias I'm voting Isshiki FRA. Isshiki seems to just shrink anything problematic and fill him up with rods.

If anyone more competent wants to explain to me how Melodias wins I'll gladly hear them out.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Voting Ishiki DavidTPPM made some good arguments

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Fear manipulation can indeed be overcome by will power besides it doesn't matter, it doesn't stop them from fighting in the first place.

What the hell are you talking about? Layered fear manipulation cannot be overcome by willpower. Upon sensing Meliodas's power, he would be affected by fear manipulation.

It's his doujutsu speed that changed , so everything related to it

This is only valid for the expansion and shrinking of things.

That's how Sasuke described it. The description is also on the profile.
Ignoring the body and attacking inside is just an umbrella term for how a lot of Duraneg works. You'd have to bring evidence that darkness protects on that level because a chakra cloak that protects Naruto from cellular damage from rasenshuriken was still completely ineffective. Also you'd have to explain why you think snatch works the same way as the rodss

Darkness protects demons from light particles and molecular damage, man. Where did you get the idea that Isshiki's rods are passing through?

Lostvayne gets shrunk and isshiki can shrink himself to Dodge anything Meli does, along with his microscopic rods which can targets all of meli's hearts.

Meliodas doesn’t need Lostvayne to fight against Isshiki. Meliodas has area attacks that Isshiki wouldn’t be able to dodge without exerting himself greatly.
Isshiki has never attacked anyone’s heart, so why would he be doing that here? Moreover, the rods do not pierce through darkness.

Isshiki can also shrinks all of meli ranged attacks, trillion dark? hellblaze?

When did Isshiki ever show the ability to shrink countless attacks simultaneously? Meliodas creates clones and overwhelms Isshiki with trillions upon trillions darkness attacks.

Daikokuten cubes which null senory abilities as well.

Meliodas just needs to step out or destroy those things, it’s nothing serious.

From what I'm reading miasma just gets shrunk and that's it.
Isshiki also covers himself in a chakra aura which would mean miasma doesn't even touch him, and the effects seem pretty much centered around affecting biological matter (bodies rotting, people feeling sick and afraid, etc).

This is not enough to protect against the miasma of someone powerful.

As far as I'm aware those are perfectly shrinkable attacks.

These attacks cannot be shrunk... What the hell is this?

I'm heading to work, I'll reply to the rest later.

 

[DavidTPPM]

What the hell are you talking about? Layered fear manipulation cannot be overcome by willpower.

Yes. Yes it can. You can have octillion layers of fear hax and it'll still be possible to overcome it with willpower.

Darkness protects demons from light particles and molecular damage, man. Where did you get the idea that Isshiki's rods are passing through?

This doesn't give resistance to Isshikis type of duraneg unless there's further context.

This is not enough to protect against the miasma of someone powerful.

Why not?

These attacks cannot be shrunk... What the hell is this?

Why not? Simply saying they can't isn't an argument.

I'm heading to work, I'll reply to the rest later.

Have fun

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Yes. Yes it can. You can have octillion layers of fear hax and it'll still be possible to overcome it with willpower.

Fraudulent ability

 

[karo_senpaii]

What the hell are you talking about? Layered fear manipulation cannot be overcome by willpower. Upon sensing Meliodas's power, he would be affected by fear manipulation.

Fear manipulation is special from other hax, check the wiki, it can be overcome by will power, especially given the examples on the profile the affected parties were still able to fight

This is only valid for the expansion and shrinking of things.

It is the eye that controls it speed, it would affect anything related to his doujutsu

Darkness protects demons from light particles and molecular damage, man. Where did you get the idea that Isshiki's rods are passing through?

resistance to Decon ≠ give you protection from cellular molecular damage, if it did then Naruto would not be affected by it since he has the resistance. It works by going through the gaps between particles lol

Meliodas doesn’t need Lostvayne to fight against Isshiki. Meliodas has area attacks that Isshiki wouldn’t be able to dodge without exerting himself greatly.

He can dodge any attack by moving to his dimension or a different one

Isshiki has never attacked anyone’s heart, so why would he be doing that here? Moreover, the rods do not pierce through darkness.

He would do it coz he'd see a guy that has 7 hearts

When did Isshiki ever show the ability to shrink countless attacks simultaneously? Meliodas creates clones and overwhelms Isshiki with trillions upon trillions darkness attacks.

When he first awakened he was just shrinking everything in his part at the same time against koji

Meliodas just needs to step out or destroy those things, it’s nothing serious.


This is not enough to protect against the miasma of someone powerful.

These attacks cannot be shrunk... What the hell is this?

I'm heading to work, I'll reply to the rest later.

There's no attack that can't be shrunk lol

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Yes. Yes it can. You can have octillion layers of fear hax and it'll still be possible to overcome it with willpower.

first you'll have to prove that their willpower is capable of doing such amidst heavily layered or heavily potent fear hax

 

[karo_senpaii]

first you'll have to prove that their willpower is capable of doing such amidst heavily layered or heavily potent fear hax

That's not the point. The point is that fear manipulation a lot of times doesn't stop people who have sufficient will power from fighting. If you have enough will power then you'll fight despite being afraid. If the fear manipulation comes with paralysis then we can start talking about a different thing. If you also have a scan of someone loosing their will to fight due to the fear hax layers then that also works

 

[DavidTPPM]

first you'll have to prove that their willpower is capable of doing such

Kinda goes both ways. First you need to show how bad the fear is, then we can compare it to willpower feats to determine if it can be overcome.
The one panel I see in Melodias' profile is very unimpressive.
In comparison, Isshikis willpower was strong enough for him to crawl around while literally missing his lower half and had his spine hanging out for long enough to get inside a monks brain. Generally Otsutsuki have the willpower to literally let themselves get eaten alive if the situation needs it as Kinshiki confirmed its something that happens often.

So I think Isshiki should have no issues fighting through the fear, unless there's some brutal showings of it not in the profile.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Kinda goes both ways. First you need to show how bad the fear is, then we can compare it to willpower feats to determine if it can be overcome.
The one panel I see in Melodias' profile is very unimpressive.
In comparison, Isshikis willpower was strong enough for him to crawl around while literally missing his lower half and had his spine hanging out for long enough to get inside a monks brain. Generally Otsutsuki have the willpower to literally let themselves get eaten alive if the situation needs it as Kinshiki confirmed its something that happens often.

So I think Isshiki should have no issues fighting through the fear, unless there's some brutal showings of it not in the profile.

The blackhound that Meliodas chased away with fear is something that sees fear hax as threats that would increase their size, and this monster will not stop hunting someone until either of them is dead, and has done so for millennia ever since it was born. This is not about brutal showings, but their innate violent instinct


It's more so that the Blackhound has history. 3000 years of history involving reincarnation and the desire to protect and serve. So being able to drive it off is no easy feat specially when trying to induce fear on that thing just causes them to grow larger in response to threat and fear towards their enemies

 

[speedster352]

Can we stop over wanking the shrinking ability? If Isshiki can shrink energy Auras why not shrink Naruto’s chakra cloak and chakra arms? Also why not just shrink the smoke that Sasuke used to obscure his Byakugan vision? That would be the best time to use the shrinking ability unless if it doesn't work on smoke or something similar like miasma. Can this thread be closed already?

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Can we stop over wanking the shrinking ability? If Isshiki can shrink energy Auras why not shrink Naruto’s chakra cloak and chakra arms?

Cuz those things are living beings

Also why not just shrink the smoke that Sasuke used to obscure his Byakugan vision?

Arrogance

That would be the best time to use the shrinking ability unless if it doesn't work on smoke or something similar like miasma. Can this thread be closed already?

No

 

[speedster352]

Cuz those things are living beings

Arrogance

No

Can you prove that Isshiki can shrink energy auras? Can you also prove that chakra can protect against layered passives? Can you prove that Isshiki could shrink the smoke if he wanted to? Because he time was almost up he only had a few minutes why on earth would he be arrogant in that situation and not just shrink the smoke? The whole arrogance thing is a head canon.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Can we stop over wanking the shrinking ability? If Isshiki can shrink energy Auras why not shrink Naruto’s chakra cloak and chakra arms? Also why not just shrink the smoke that Sasuke used to obscure his Byakugan vision? That would be the best time to use the shrinking ability unless if it doesn't work on smoke or something similar like miasma. Can this thread be closed already?

You do realise that's just kurama a living thing right?

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Can you prove that Isshiki can shrink energy auras? Can you also prove that chakra can protect against layered passives?

Is the Aura made of energy? Yes
Can ishikki shrink energy? Yes
Logically he can do so with energy based Auras

Not that it matters cuz the fear hax is straight dodo, it’s not even Shinboi level that makes you want to kill yourself. It’s just “i am feeling” level of potency

Can you prove that Isshiki could shrink the smoke if he wanted to? Because he time was almost up he only had a few minutes why on earth would he be arrogant in that situation and not just shrink the smoke? The whole arrogance thing is a head canon.

Nard literally started to cough blood for a pico second and ishikki ego skyrocketed to the moon. So yes his arrogance is not headcannon it’s a well established thing that oats are arrogant creatures and remain as such

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Yes. Yes it can. You can have octillion layers of fear hax and it'll still be possible to overcome it with willpower.

Fear manipulation is special from other hax, check the wiki, it can be overcome by will power, especially given the examples on the profile the affected parties were still able to fight

He cannot withstand three layers; I asked Vietthai96, and by default he does not resist that.

This doesn't give resistance to Isshikis type of duraneg unless there's further context.

That thing from Isshiki isn’t even a real duraneg; it could only become one if he managed to penetrate Meliodas’s body first, which he obviously cannot.

Why not?

The scan shows why.

It is the eye that controls it speed, it would affect anything related to his doujutsu

He only needs to activate the technique, and he doesn’t need to be ten times faster to do it.

resistance to Decon ≠ give you protection from cellular molecular damage, if it did then Naruto would not be affected by it since he has the resistance. It works by going through the gaps between particles lol

Darkness prevents photons from reaching the demons’ bodies, but it can’t stop Isshiki’s stakes? lol. Molecular damage means nothing to a high-level demon.

They can. They are duraneg, they go through the microscopic gaps in all structures and that's how they enter.

That’s false; they don’t pass through the microscopic spaces of the body. They penetrate like a needle or similar object, but since they’re small, the person doesn’t notice being hit. Inside the body, the rods is enlarged, which makes it a duraneg, but it doesn’t work on Meliodas since he is strong enough for the rods not to injure him.

Voting Isshiki cuz he can BFR to a dimension where time doesn't flow via Daikokutan and Shrink via sukukhona

He has never even shown the ability to do that.

He can dodge any attack by moving to his dimension or a different one

He would overload quickly if he kept doing that, which would be a victory for Meliodas.

 

[karo_senpaii]

He cannot withstand three layers; I asked Vietthai96, and by default he does not resist that.

Talking like he's WOG or something. Just so you know a staff can be wrong.
Also what it means is that if they have already shown they have the ability to withstand stuff like that through willpower then sure , but we don't assume by default

That thing from Isshiki isn’t even a real duraneg; it could only become one if he managed to penetrate Meliodas’s body first, which he obviously cannot.

Read the profile. The Duraneg section clearly says he can choose to materialise the rods from his dimension in someone and then instantly enlarge

The scan shows why.


He only needs to activate the technique, and he doesn’t need to be ten times faster to do it.

Who said he is 10 times faster. I'm talking about any effect the eye has, the speed changes 10x.

Darkness prevents photons from reaching the demons’ bodies, but it can’t stop Isshiki’s stakes? lol. Molecular damage means nothing to a high-level demon.

It may mean nothing normally but it means absolutely the world to their heart. It gets squashed and they die

That’s false; they don’t pass through the microscopic spaces of the body. They penetrate like a needle or similar object, but since they’re small, the person doesn’t notice being hit. Inside the body, the rods is enlarged, which makes it a duraneg, but it doesn’t work on Meliodas since he is strong enough for the rods not to injure him.

It is not just that. The Naruto in question , his cloak protects him from his attack which pass through such gaps and attacks his cells. So yes they do

He has never even shown the ability to do that.


He would overload quickly if he kept doing that, which would be a victory for Meliodas.

No he wouldn't. We've never seen the dude run out of chakra ..like seriously he just started shrinking anything he could see and he was fine.

In fact he if shrinks once and leaves, the next time Mel won't even be able to sense him and it would be over

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

He cannot withstand three layers; I asked Vietthai96, and by default he does not resist that.

Uhhhh sasuke resisted Orochi fear hax with sheer willpower. I reminder that sasuke had prior resistance to fear via Zabuza and still got fear haxed by Orochi which he then overcame with willpower.

So the verse isn’t new to layered fear hax resistance with willpower

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Also what it means is that if they have already shown they have the ability to withstand stuff like that through willpower then sure , but we don't assume by default

No one in the verse has ever shown the ability to withstand three layers of fear induction, so...

Read the profile. The Duraneg section clearly says he can choose to materialise the rods from his dimension in someone and then instantly enlarge

There aren’t even scans for that, and it’s contradicted by Sasuke himself; the stakes don’t work that way.

It may mean nothing normally but it means absolutely the world to their heart. It gets squashed and they die

But first you need to get through the outer part to do that, something Isshiki cannot accomplish.

Who said he is 10 times faster. I'm talking about any effect the eye has, the speed changes 10x.

That’s false; only the shrinking and enlarging are ten times faster.

It is not just that. The Naruto in question , his cloak protects him from his attack which pass through such gaps and attacks his cells. So yes they do

The attack only needs to be powerful enough to surpass Naruto’s durability. With this matter of protection, the darkness shields at a molecular level, and can even reach a macroquantum level if photons are taken into account.

 

[karo_senpaii]

No one in the verse has ever shown the ability to withstand three layers of fear induction, so..

That's not the point? Are you being obtuse for no reason? Regardless of layers fear hax can always be overcome by willpower asin you can fight regardless of if you are afraid.

Sasuke clearly overcame orochimaro fear hax that worked in him despite being able to resist zabuza so yeah it's been shown to overcome layers

There aren’t even scans for that, and it’s contradicted by Sasuke himself; the stakes don’t work that way.

That's not a contradiction, he is explaining a part of his abilities. Sasuke had zero clue at this point about daikokuten, which is how the rods spawn in the first place

But first you need to get through the outer part to do that, something Isshiki cannot accomplish.

He can, that's how duraneg works

That’s false; only the shrinking and enlarging are ten times faster.

No it's not. Sasuke clearly said "those high speed rods? Even high can barely track them and he caught them"

The attack only needs to be powerful enough to surpass Naruto’s durability. With this matter of protection, the darkness shields at a molecular level, and can even reach a macroquantum level if photons are taken into account.

Tag his resistance to cellular level attacks on his profile.
You may say it only needs to be powerful enough then go make a CRT and change he duraneg section. For now it stays right there

 

[DavidTPPM]

The blackhound that Meliodas chased away with fear is something that sees fear hax as threats that would increase their size, and this monster will not stop hunting someone until either of them is dead, and has done so for millennia ever since it was born. This is not about brutal showings, but their innate violent instinct


It's more so that the Blackhound has history. 3000 years of history involving reincarnation and the desire to protect and serve. So being able to drive it off is no easy feat specially when trying to induce fear on that thing just causes them to grow larger in response to threat and fear towards their enemies

Yeah that's not nearly enough to do anything meaningful to Isshiki. It might stagger him for a moment but that should be about it. We've seen characters in Naruto make you completely suicidal, paralyzed, and seeing visions of their death through just a mid tier characters aura. And even Isshikis suppressed presence is enough to make people who should be unaffected by that almost collapse. (there's many routes to go with this tbh)

Can you prove that Isshiki can shrink energy auras?

He could shrink the fire completely enveloping him even with a version of the shrinking that's 10x weaker.

Can you also prove that chakra can protect against layered passives?

We don't need to unless you prove said aura has some special duraneg style penetrative abilities.

Can you prove that Isshiki could shrink the smoke if he wanted to?

Can you prove he can't? You're the one claiming he couldn't so don't shift your burden.

The whole arrogance thing is a head canon.

So is the claim he can't shrink it and yet you're making it.

Also can you prove the smoke doesn't just block sukonahikona specifically? It's an eye ability and the smoke explicitly blocks off clairvoyant abilities.

 

[DavidTPPM]

He cannot withstand three layers; I asked Vietthai96, and by default he does not resist that.

By default no. But in Naruto we see characters overcome much more severe fear hax through willpower and the fear hax page explicitly mentions that verses can show fear hax to be possible to overcome through willpower.

Also you keep mentioning the layers but they're insignificant here. Overcoming them by means other than straight up resistance is based more on the quality of the fear not potency.
For example you can have 80 nonillion layers of fear hax but if the quality is that of an average fnaf 1 jumpscare then overcoming said fear through willpower will be easy even for an average irl human.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

This has become an actual joke of a thread

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

This has become an actual joke of a thread

What ever do you mean

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

By default no. But in Naruto we see characters overcome much more severe fear hax through willpower and the fear hax page explicitly mentions that verses can show fear hax to be possible to overcome through willpower.

Also you keep mentioning the layers but they're insignificant here. Overcoming them by means other than straight up resistance is based more on the quality of the fear not potency.
For example you can have 80 nonillion layers of fear hax but if the quality is that of an average fnaf 1 jumpscare then overcoming said fear through willpower will be easy even for an average irl human.

• Mentions Naruto character's nonexistent multi layered fear hax (shows absolutely zero evidence)
• Talks about fear hax as if it's the only thing Isshiki has to deal with
• Uses an actual F tier example about how layers work when it isn't even applicable to the potency of fear used for the matchup

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

You got it man

 

[speedster352]

Can this thread be closed already? I believe that Grace has ended.

 

[Majinere566]

The votes for isshiki needs to be counted

 

[Nonynho]

I don't really know if it does any actual thing, but i'd add myself in Isshiki's side FRA, @Foriaa really made more sense to me*

 

[rogueprestonian]

Voting Isshiki, Meliodas arguments seemed to initially make sense but upon comparing both profiles and the story of both I do not see any reason why Isshiki doesn’t instantly spawn his rods inside him and kills him.

Isshiki is only arrogant against people objectively weaker than him but immediately locks in upon seeing a proper threat like we see in Baryon Mode.

The aura deconstruction arguments for Meliodas feels weak after cross referencing everything and the burden of proof arguments do not help this case.

So like i said Isshiki got this.

 

[Nonynho]

i think it's definetely 7-5 so we shouldn't have Grace anymore lol

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

This is Grace 7-2

Grace started yesterday at 18:45, is 23:35, grace ended hours ago

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Also, to be fair, I am counting the votes and with

Ishikki FRA

this one, is 7-5
So inconclusive grace started with him

Edit: I think we are at 7-6 or 7-7 right now

 

[XxZetsuxX]

If grace ended hours ago, then just add to the profiles and close this

No point in arguing something that is already finished

 

[Nonynho]

If grace ended hours ago, then just add to the profiles and close this

No point in arguing something that is already finished

proper way to end grace is to ask in A-PRT for the thread to be closed

If this is done, people can argue in a thread to remove matches whose exact name i just forgot, which is triggering A F* T O N of unneeded burocracy when we can just simply not close this thread and keep going until a proper result is reached

 

[XxZetsuxX]

It's best to just close this instead of letting it continue

If people want to continue, it's better to just make a rematch imo

Edit: I will ask to close this ig