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Then why dose he word it like he wasn't part of the decision? even if he was. I maintain individuals on a writing team can have opinions about a open-ended vauge ending, however that dosen't mean anything one of them has the authority to say what is right intend of the GT ending to be open end it and for it to not be completely clear what happened is obvious.
Because he’s talking about the way they DEPICTED his work. He directly wrote the scripts of literally half of GT and that literal final episode.

Quote from him: “In the world of Dragon Ball, Goku had already died multiple times, and up till then, each time he appeared with a halo over his head. However, I didn’t want to go with the usual concept of, ‘even when he dies, he comes right back to life.’ I wanted the viewers to picture “death” in that way, and feel a sadness close to it in reality. So I had a “change” come over Goku.”

This is where the fan term “Change State,” comes from. It's literally Goku dying in a different way we’ve never seen before (becoming something beyond the usual concept of the life Death dichotomy), where Goku then, according to him, becomes untouchable due to this.

The other statement is Nozawa (Goku Voice Actor) explaining that same concept, talking about the depiction of that concept. Because the idea is that Goku has finally done the final level of evolution to a form of Godhood (having overcome Karma, Buddhist + Taoist influences and all that).

I'll pull up the episode of dragonball dissection that covers this if you want but, the show dose make it clesr that there actually currently living.
I don't see what the confusion is here. We’re saying the same thing, the only difference is you’re saying they’re temporarily alive when they come back instead of being living dead. (They merely gain their complete physical bodies).

Point remains the same: Irrelevant, because they aren't in the Afterlife.
 
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My lord, I do appreciate you people are discussing Goku's questionable immortalities, but we are not using that key for Goku in this fight anymore, so let us all move on everybody.
 
As usual, speed multipliers makes any speed equalized threads void regardless, I should have easily seen this coming from miles away.
 
Well interpreted this as you saying because of the DBZ speed changes this thread was invalid...
Only if the slower character become faster in a speed equalized thread does make a thread invalid, in this case it isn't since DBGT Anime Goku is faster than DBS Anime Goku even with speed equalization is what the other vote was count for. Also what's with the "..."?
 
Only if the slower character become faster in a speed equalized thread does make a thread invalid, in this case it isn't since DBGT Anime Goku is faster than DBS Anime Goku even with speed equalization is what the other vote was count for. Also what's with the "..."?
Well..uaa you did it too it's just uaaaa a way of describing emotion in text i guess I just worte it naturally
 
I do apologize for the bit of a delay going on here between me and someone, but hey let's get back to the thread now!
 
We're using the same keys, and if we aren't, we should be
We're using the same arguments
GTku wins for the same reasons

Why should this thread be more valid then the one that's already in the profiles? Also, as i did months ago, please fetch a scaling chain proving that those keys are where they match
 
this is Shadow Dragon Saga GT Goku vs ToP Pre UI SSGSS KKx20 Goku?

according to this, Shadow Dragon Saga SFPSSJ4 Goku scales to 1.63 billion times Episode 29 Goku, who is 5000 times stronger than Episode 1 Goku, who is 400 times stronger than Buu Saga Base Goku, who is 2C, totaling to 3.26 * 10^{15} times 2C, which is 3.26 quadrillion times 2C

according to this, ToP SSGSS KKx20 Goku scales to 1.024 * 10^{18} times 2C, which is 1.024 Quintillion times 2C

this is a difference of 314.11 times

Considering how GT's scaling chain doesn't downscale anything since they managed to calculate the actual multiplier for SSJ4, meanwhile Super's scaling chain NEEDS to downscale Super Saiyan God since we can't mathematically calculate a transformation that makes you go from 4B to 2C, the difference between Super and GT might be even more astronomical

TLDR Super Goku is at bare minimum 314 times stronger, if not even stronger due to the downscaled nature of DB Super's scaling.

Considering how Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta is treated as tens of times stronger than Goku and Vegeta with just a finger, you're basically pitting someone who's significantly stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta against... one of Gogeta's fusees

how does GTku win
 
this is Shadow Dragon Saga GT Goku vs ToP Pre UI SSGSS KKx20 Goku?

according to this, Shadow Dragon Saga SFPSSJ4 Goku scales to 1.63 billion times Episode 29 Goku, who is 5000 times stronger than Episode 1 Goku, who is 400 times stronger than Buu Saga Base Goku, who is 2C, totaling to 3.26 * 10^{15} times 2C, which is 3.26 quadrillion times 2C

according to this, ToP SSGSS KKx20 Goku scales to 1.024 * 10^{18} times 2C, which is 1.024 Quintillion times 2C

this is a difference of 314.11 times

Considering how GT's scaling chain doesn't downscale anything since they managed to calculate the actual multiplier for SSJ4, meanwhile Super's scaling chain NEEDS to downscale Super Saiyan God since we can't mathematically calculate a transformation that makes you go from 4B to 2C, the difference between Super and GT might be even more astronomical

TLDR Super Goku is at bare minimum 314 times stronger, if not even stronger due to the downscaled nature of DB Super's scaling.

Considering how Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta is treated as tens of times stronger than Goku and Vegeta with just a finger, you're basically pitting someone who's significantly stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta against... one of Gogeta's fusees

how does GTku win
Please look at the line of thought i brought up a bit ago
Shadow Saga Goku is 400 Quintillion times the feat
 

Just two minor corrections:

1) Base Goku isn't 2-C. He’s significantly above it scaling from Ultimate Gohan, as he matched Ultimate Gohan in Base whilst at 1% (which alone makes him like 50x 2-C, without any potential extra upscaling from the next few statements). He also potentially scales above Z Gogeta considering a couple pieces of data, but that's for the next point. Said scaling also is comfortably into 2-C. Point being, you forgot to account for some numbers, because Z also has a 2-C Scaling chain.

2) The rise Goku gets into 2-C from the lower, finite tier is from his experience as Vegito. SSJ4 is compared to directly to the jump Vegito gave. This is pretty consistent, because SSJ4 is also said to bigger than the jump of SSJ3 Gotenks, which also takes two non-2-C Characters and makes them 2-C upon Fusion. Vegito also scales above Z Gogeta, whose mere birth released power relative to the Big Bang. Buuhan, the origin of the 2-C feat, is also considerably beneath Vegito. And Kid Buu is repeatedly stated to be the strongest enemy and the battle featuring the strongest were happening in it (with SSJ3 Goku). Basically, SSJ4 also has the SSG argument of actually being a transformation relative to an infinite jump tiering wise, and the doc is actually allowed based on the same logic of SSG, which is that it is working on minimums supporting by prior text.

Now, the exact craziness of the numbers is not for me to hash out. (Ex: I think even accounting for that extra 50x, it just reduces to gap by a digit or so, based on your numbers? I’m not the math guy, but unless Nonynho’s got better track of them, he might have a strength edge still). I dunno who wins this exact specification.

I just wanted to correct those two misconceptions in particular. (As such, read this as “Those two things are wrong,” NOT “GT Goku should win.” This is not a vote or argument—Just clarification.)
 
Now, the exact craziness of the numbers is not for me to hash out.
i've talked a bunch about it in the link i brought up, a few days before i opened the thread
keys below the post UISign are likely more than 10x weaker than Shadow Saga GTku

Edit: Goku can never use SSG or Blue because this makes him become 6 Universes 2-C, immediately making this a stomp
 
i've talked a bunch about it in the link i brought up, a few days before i opened the thread
keys below the post UISign are likely more than 10x weaker than Shadow Saga GTku

Edit: Goku can never use SSG or Blue because this makes him become 6 Universes 2-C, immediately making this a stomp
Just two minor corrections:

1) Base Goku isn't 2-C. He’s significantly above it scaling from Ultimate Gohan, as he matched Ultimate Gohan in Base whilst at 1% (which alone makes him like 50x 2-C, without any potential extra upscaling from the next few statements). He also potentially scales above Z Gogeta considering a couple pieces of data, but that's for the next point. Said scaling also is comfortably into 2-C. Point being, you forgot to account for some numbers, because Z also has a 2-C Scaling chain.

2) The rise Goku gets into 2-C from the lower, finite tier is from his experience as Vegito. SSJ4 is compared to directly to the jump Vegito gave. This is pretty consistent, because SSJ4 is also said to bigger than the jump of SSJ3 Gotenks, which also takes two non-2-C Characters and makes them 2-C upon Fusion. Vegito also scales above Z Gogeta, whose mere birth released power relative to the Big Bang. Buuhan, the origin of the 2-C feat, is also considerably beneath Vegito. And Kid Buu is repeatedly stated to be the strongest enemy and the battle featuring the strongest were happening in it (with SSJ3 Goku). Basically, SSJ4 also has the SSG argument of actually being a transformation relative to an infinite jump tiering wise, and the doc is actually allowed based on the same logic of SSG, which is that it is working on minimums supporting by prior text.

Now, the exact craziness of the numbers is not for me to hash out. (Ex: I think even accounting for that extra 50x, it just reduces to gap by a digit or so, based on your numbers? I’m not the math guy, but unless Nonynho’s got better track of them, he might have a strength edge still). I dunno who wins this exact specification.

I just wanted to correct those two misconceptions in particular. (As such, read this as “Those two things are wrong,” NOT “GT Goku should win.” This is not a vote or argument—Just clarification.)
this is Shadow Dragon Saga GT Goku vs ToP Pre UI SSGSS KKx20 Goku?

according to this, Shadow Dragon Saga SFPSSJ4 Goku scales to 1.63 billion times Episode 29 Goku, who is 5000 times stronger than Episode 1 Goku, who is 400 times stronger than Buu Saga Base Goku, who is 2C, totaling to 3.26 * 10^{15} times 2C, which is 3.26 quadrillion times 2C

according to this, ToP SSGSS KKx20 Goku scales to 1.024 * 10^{18} times 2C, which is 1.024 Quintillion times 2C

this is a difference of 314.11 times

Considering how GT's scaling chain doesn't downscale anything since they managed to calculate the actual multiplier for SSJ4, meanwhile Super's scaling chain NEEDS to downscale Super Saiyan God since we can't mathematically calculate a transformation that makes you go from 4B to 2C, the difference between Super and GT might be even more astronomical

TLDR Super Goku is at bare minimum 314 times stronger, if not even stronger due to the downscaled nature of DB Super's scaling.

Considering how Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta is treated as tens of times stronger than Goku and Vegeta with just a finger, you're basically pitting someone who's significantly stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta against... one of Gogeta's fusees

how does GTku win
I don't think that idea is that weird
GTku also has greater LS so he carries Superku on a joyride

Monke FRA
Voting Zeta Goku cause drip

I did the DBGT Anime Goku's AP scaling for reference.
 
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can you repost the math here for clarification
Same here. People needs to start putting AP and Speed scaling chain blog for Dragon Ball Toei verse, only Dragon Ball Canon verse has AP and Speed scaling chain blog and that isn't helping much.
 

The main help @KaramcaS gave me and lest time i checked, it was correct

Hence why SFPSSJ4 with his 407quintillion is what matches SSJ3 P-UI Sign Anime's 200-and-a-bit quintillion's
 

The main help @KaramcaS gave me and lest time i checked, it was correct

Hence why SFPSSJ4 with his 407quintillion is what matches SSJ3 P-UI Sign Anime's 200-and-a-bit quintillion's

I did the real math myself. @KaramcaS provided the wrong multiplier for SFPSSJ4 Goku.
 
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Nevermind, let me do the math myself!

Episode 29 DBGT Base Goku = 625,000,000 (625 million)
FPSSJ4 Goku (Baby Saga) 20.48 Million × Episode 29 Goku = 12,800,000,000,000,000 (12.8 quadrillion)
FPSSJ4 Goku (Super 17 Saga) 163.84 Million × Episode 29 Goku = 102, 400, 000, 000, 000, 000 (102 quadrillion, 400 trillion)
FPSSJ4 Goku (Shadow Dragon Saga) 1.63 Billion x Episode 29 Goku = 1,018,750,000,000,000,000 (1 quintillion, 18 quadrillion, 750 trillion).

Tournament of Power (Pre-Ultra Instinct -Sign-) SSJBKKX20 Goku = 1,024,000,000,000,000,000 (1.024 Quintillion)
Post-Ultra Instinct -Sign- (Second Awakening) SSJ3 Goku = 204,800,000,000,000,000,000 (204.8 Quintillion)

With me doing the actual math here, Tournament of Power (Pre-Ultra Instinct -Sign-) SSJBKKX20 Goku has 5,250,000,000,000,000 (5.25 quadrillion) AP advantage over FPSSJ4 Goku (Shadow Dragon Saga).

I posted this for anyone to see this.
 
FPSSJ4 Goku (Baby Saga) 20.48 Million × Episode 29 Goku
Yeah but we're using SFP, not just FP

  • Then we’re shown that Baby is experiencing massive strain and isn’t operating at his real peak, and neither is Goku. Once Baby attains his peak, it’s stated in the Perfect Files Baby’s power Doubled. Once Goku attains his Full Power, he matches and exceeds Baby, so he Doubles as well. (20.48 Million, though likely more, as FPSSJ4 Goku trumped Full Power Baby by a considerable margin.) So in conclusion, the Multiplier for SSJ4 is 20.48 Million. Once in Super Full Power, you get a (more than) 10x amp, making it 204 Million times increase.

SFPSSJ4 Goku (Shadow Dragon Saga) 16.3 Billion x Episode 29 Goku = 10 quintillion, 187 quadrilliom

Meaning we should have no troubles if using SSJ P-UI Sign vs SFPSSJ4 (25.6 quintillion vs 10,187 quintillion) and i'd still be on GT's side
 
Yeah but we're using SFP, not just FP





Meaning we should have no troubles if using SSJ P-UI Sign vs SFPSSJ4 (25.6 quintillion vs 10,187 quintillion) and i'd still be on GT's side
So in SBA settings if Shadow Dragon Saga Goku only has 10 quintillion AP advantage and not 400 or 200 quintillion advantages over Tournament of Power (Pre-Ultra Instinct -Sign-) Goku, then I guess this fight can work out lol.
 
So in SBA settings if Shadow Dragon Saga Goku only has 10 quintillion AP advantage and not 400 or 200 quintillion advantages over Tournament of Power (Pre-Ultra Instinct -Sign-) Goku, then I guess this fight can work out lol.
Well, with the calcs the current blog lets us have, the advantage should be of 2.5x for Superku side
 
Tournament of Power (Pre-Ultra Instinct -Sign-) GokuShadow Dragon Saga Goku • Standard Battle Assumptions Speed is equalized • In a very large indestructible Tournament of Power Arena

Now that we had established that DBGT Anime Goku has 10 quadrillion AP advantage over DBS Anime Goku with me doing the actual math using the two blogs, we are keeping this settings and not changing it!
 
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Heya, you keeping your vote for GTku's side with the new agreed upon match rules?
uh
Yeah but we're using SFP, not just FP

Meaning we should have no troubles if using SSJ P-UI Sign vs SFPSSJ4 (25.6 quintillion vs 10,187 quintillion) and i'd still be on GT's side
i mean my main argument is that superku is stronger

and I've been arguing in the dbz general thread about super's power system being ******* ridiculous and having ssjg be at x160,000 is moronic

but since that hasn't been accepted and gtku is stronger then gtku just wins, he has more abilities since this version of superku doesn't have ui yet since it's just ssgss kkx20

so ig I vote gtku assuming I fail to argue for the power stuff
 
uh

i mean my main argument is that superku is stronger

and I've been arguing in the dbz general thread about super's power system being ******* ridiculous and having ssjg be at x160,000 is moronic

but since that hasn't been accepted and gtku is stronger then gtku just wins, he has more abilities since this version of superku doesn't have ui yet since it's just ssgss kkx20

so ig I vote gtku assuming I fail to argue for the power stuff
(0-3-0)
 
uh

i mean my main argument is that superku is stronger

and I've been arguing in the dbz general thread about super's power system being ******* ridiculous and having ssjg be at x160,000 is moronic

but since that hasn't been accepted and gtku is stronger then gtku just wins, he has more abilities since this version of superku doesn't have ui yet since it's just ssgss kkx20

so ig I vote gtku assuming I fail to argue for the power stuff
I misread, it was another colleague that voted for GTku

Superku is 2.5x stronger and is in SSJ1, FYK
 
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