Dragon Ball Z Multiplier Removal

[M3X_2.0]

Staff thread permission from @Agnaa so no replies without permissions.

A while back, I found out that this blog is linked on the Dragon Ball page, and it’s meant to explain the exact speed numbers for the franchise’s characters, specifically from Dragon Ball Z.

The problem is that everything about Dragon Ball Z’s speed breaks our rules. The Multipliers page says the following:

However, a good statement alone is not enough to get a high multiplier accepted. The amount of extra evidence one has to provide to get larger multipliers accepted is proportional to the size of the multiplier. For lower multipliers, like things much less than times 100, evidence can take the form of a clear increase in combat strength against priorly equal or superior opponents. For higher multipliers, like times 100 and above, the importance of stronger evidence, such as feats displaying power of a similar magnitude as the value the multiplier points to or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story, and a higher amount of evidence becomes increasingly necessary.

And:

If multiple multipliers are to be stacked, that are used upon each other, the evidence for the end result is equal to the total multiplier applied to the best feat. That means that if, for example, a character has a times 10 multiplier and later on gets another times 50 multiplier, than the evidence necessary to use both multipliers to get a statistic, is like that of a times 500 multiplier, as the best feat would be increased by a factor of 500 in that case.

On the Dragon Ball page, we can see that the verse has only 2 calculations at the Relativistic Tier, and the speed blog claims characters go from 0.5c to 43,200,000,000,000c, with no feats in between the two values, all based on stacked multipliers upon multipliers, with no evidence of a speed increase of over a trillion times.

This is DBZ manga ONLY, by the way.

This is blatantly against the rules and should be removed.

 

[KingTempest]

YES

 

[Da3ggman]

Opening Pandora’s Box

Anyway uhhhh since this is the manga and not the anime which has some nutty shit yeah axe it, you’ll be lucky if you get past ftl for manga feats let alone 20000000000000x ftl or whatever we have them at lmao, so I agree

 

[KingTempest]

Nah bro for real?

Ok at least there's Goku's spaceship calc being over 150 million c in the Toei page, DBS manga having Piccolo reacting to a spaceship being over 50000c, DBS broly movie having Vegeta reacting to a spaceship that can travell at intergalactic distances being over 40 billion c

Beerus energy ball threatening to engulf the macrocosm being over 100 sextillion c, and all that thing of infinite speed for Toei characters

That would only support scaling or also support that characters do get faster than the baseline piccolo feat?

"toei page" different continuity
"DBS manga" an infinitely stronger version of piccolo
"DBS broly" infinitely superior vegeta
"Beerus energy ball" the size of my house

you're giving evidence for the drastic high high high high tiers.

all because some top tiers have consistent feats doesn't mean that everybody below fits
you gave 150 million c, 50 thousand c, 40 billion c, for some super top top top tiers

people are scaling to 43,200,000,000,000c.
these don't help

 

[Agnaa]

I haven't read the manga so I don't know if there actually is a dearth of feats and story context (as that is another viable way to achieve high ratings).

I'll withhold judgement until counterarguments are presented.

Although in the absence of them, I do lean towards agreeing. I've seen the anime at least, and while there is story context supporting them getting faster through transformations, I don't remember anything that would endorse them being tens of trillions of times faster.

Also, I would like the OP to mention any impacts this would have on DBS (or why this wouldn't have any impacts on it), as well as propose what the alternative stats should be (surely there's some 5x multiplier, low enough to be valid, sitting around, right?)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

For years, I've actually been in favor of revitalizing out multipliers policy rather than repeat the same verse specific debates that have been done trillions of times for far too long or have had far too many repeated discussions for. But in other conversations atm.

 

[Chariot190]

Just checked some manga fights.
Comparing some of the higher end speed feats (that can be quantified), and comparing them off debris freefall for timeframes, the only beam I found that might hit FTL is SSJ2 Gohan's, stuff like Final Flash, and more only get rel values off the obtainable timeframes.

Take that as you will.

 

[Da3ggman]

Although in the absence of them, I do lean towards agreeing. I've seen the anime at least, and while there is story context supporting them getting faster through transformations, I don't remember anything that would endorse them being tens of trillions of times faster.

The anime actually has some stuff that gets pretty funny haha numbers so best to take that as its own thing

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I haven't read the manga so I don't know if there actually is a dearth of feats and story context (as that is another viable way to achieve high ratings).

The most story context is Cell and Buu threatening to eventually destroy the universe, for which they need crazy speeds to do on a reasonable timeframe

And that narratively, their power progression includes scaling above the blatant x50 of the Ssj forms (and boosting ki includes speed as stated by Vegeta once). That's about it.

 

[Planck69]

2 Rel calcs

43 trillion c

Wow. Genuinely impressed that this was up as long as it was. I agree with the thread.

 

[KingTempest]

Just checked some manga fights.
Comparing some of the higher end speed feats (that can be quantified), and comparing them off debris freefall for timeframes, the only beam I found that might hit FTL is SSJ2 Gohan's, stuff like Final Flash, and more only get rel values off the obtainable timeframes.

Take that as you will.

granting permission for this message

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Permission granted by @Vietthai96

Ok so currently the verse accepts this video as a way to calc Cell's Solar System Destruction AP for the manga.


Can't this be used as a way to calc the speed?

 

[KingTempest]

i personally disagree with using speeds of explosions and scaling them to speeds of attacks

 

[Saqphire]

Got perms from KT

The most story context is Cell and Buu threatening to eventually destroy the universe, for which they need crazy speeds to do on a reasonable timeframe

Neither of them are accepted to be able to destroy the universe in a reasonable timeframe in the manga, and none of the statements justify them doing it in such a timeframe anyway and even if it was, their range only makes it attack speed at best.

And that narratively, their power progression includes scaling above the blatant x50 of the Ssj forms (and boosting ki includes speed as stated by Vegeta once). That's about it.

Pretty sure the whole reason this thread was made was because of this very premise, the statements are blatant but they have no feats backing them up in the first place in Dragon Ball Z's manga (nor Super, as the highest, and only relevant, feat in the manga is at 50000c, and that's Piccolo reacting to a MFTL+ ship by performing movements with inferior distance, meaning he doesn't fully scale to the ship anyway).

Plus the whole AP = Speed argument from Ki would only apply to combat and reaction speed, as the two statements justifying it explicitly say that their speed is what's being increased, not their attack speed with abilities like Kamehameha. In fact, there are zero statements that I remember saying that it applies to those in the first place. I mention this because the shockwave feat that people will inevitably use to support Super being this fast is also attack speed from shockwaves.

 

[Migue79]

Anyways, yeah. I think we need to actually follow through more with multiplier scrutiny. The standards are alright, just there hasn't been enough follow through with enforcing them from what I have seen.

 

[Agnaa]

The most story context is Cell and Buu threatening to eventually destroy the universe, for which they need crazy speeds to do on a reasonable timeframe

There's definitely a cap for how much this would help. Even assuming no longevity, this only really helps up to around 1 billion c, 43,000x lower than their current value.

Buu's long lifespan makes even longer timeframes achievable, so the main one's Cell.

And that narratively, their power progression includes scaling above the blatant x50 of the Ssj forms (and boosting ki includes speed as stated by Vegeta once). That's about it.

Even just having a blatant statement isn't enough, and being stronger than earlier characters stops working well before 100x

However, a good statement alone is not enough to get a high multiplier accepted. The amount of extra evidence one has to provide to get larger multipliers accepted is proportional to the size of the multiplier. For lower multipliers, like things much less than times 100, evidence can take the form of a clear increase in combat strength against priorly equal or superior opponents. For higher multipliers, like times 100 and above, the importance of stronger evidence, such as feats displaying power of a similar magnitude as the value the multiplier points to or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story, and a higher amount of evidence becomes increasingly necessary.

I don't think power progression is meant to fall under the category of "importance to the plot", given this.

Permission granted by @Vietthai96

Ok so currently the verse accepts this video as a way to calc Cell's Solar System Destruction AP for the manga.


Can't this be used as a way to calc the speed?

Almost certainly. How useful that is? I think that's not too certain right now.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Got perms from KT

Neither of them are accepted to be able to destroy the universe in a reasonable timeframe in the manga, and none of the statements justify them doing it in such a timeframe anyway and even if it was, their range only makes it attack speed at best.

To be noted, not even I support those arguments. Agnaa asked the best story context for the support (because that's all they would be lol). And that's ong the best they have. The stacking of multipliers is wack under our rules lol.

 

[Agnaa]

I've had this part from the manga, where Buu is said to have destroyed hundreds of planets in a few years, brought to my attention.

Doing a rough order of magnitude estimate (if this ends up being key someone can grab better assumptions); our closest solar system is 4 light years away, assuming each solar system has ~10 planets he'd bother to destroy, he'd need to do 20 trips between solar systems to destroy hundreds of planets. So traveling 80 light years in a few years, about 27c.

 

[KingTempest]

That cannot be used in good faith.

In the next page Vegeta says that he average Saiyan can do what he did and those same saiyans required those chapter 1 spaceships to get around the solar system

 

[Dalesean027]

That cannot be used in good faith.

In the next page Vegeta says that he average Saiyan can do what he did and those same saiyans required those chapter 1 spaceships to get around the solar system

Yeah but Buu isn't piloting a space ship, if left unattended bro would have to fly to planet to planet so it at least should help FTL+ Buu saga

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Permission.

Don't we currently accepted the Demon Realm as like a 4-A sized realm at minimum? Surely this would be an FTL feat by that logic then?

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah but Buu isn't piloting a space ship, if left unattended bro would have to fly to planet to planet so it at least should help FTL+ Buu saga

Alright that’s fine


Also

I’m sorry is this the rectify a multiplier thread or a “save the DBZ ratings” thread.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Permission given by @Vietthai96 and @SomebodyData to comment on this thread.


Nope. We're not doing this.

What this thread does is actively limit characters' speeds by using Akira Toriyama's lack of explicit speed feats as justification, treating an absence of measurement as if it were an active anti-feat.

Notice that the thread cannot point to a single feat that contradicts the current ratings. Instead it relies entirely on silence. That is a critical distinction. Dragon Ball as a series does not depict speed in realistic, measurable terms outside of direct blitzing statements, Toriyama stacks those one on top of another. The absence of a neatly filmable speed feat is a property of the author's style, not evidence of a speed ceiling.

Furthermore, the claim that no feats exist in the range between 0.5c and 43,200,000,000,000c is NOT TRUE.

• An extremely casual Beerus, whom SSJ2 Rage Vegeta demonstrably surpasses, scales to 321 million times FTL. This places that Vegeta on par with Kid Buu, Super Buu, and comparable fighters, directly bridging the gap.
• The 43,200,000,000,000c figure does not stand alone, it has a directly comparable independent calculation supporting it.
• Manga Piccolo has a fully casual 51,000c feat on the lower end.
• In the original manga, Elder Kai, who has only 1,000 years remaining, explicitly states that Buucollo will eventually destroy the universe and reach their location, meaning even he does not consider himself safe. A being with a finite and relatively short lifespan treating universal destruction as a genuine personal threat implies it occurs on a humanly relevant timescale, which is entirely consistent with the current ratings.
• Cell presents the identical argument. He is not immortal. If he would destroy the universe, it follows that it would do so fast enough to matter.

It's ultimately unfair to Dragon Ball to be limited to Relativistic+ or any arbitrary multiplier limit, because of a writing choice from Toriyama to focus more on AP feats than Speed feats.


ONE MORE FEAT BROUGHT UP BY @Eden_Warlock99

Seriously tho

This probably would get some good results considering the Demon Realm is like accepted as 4-A in size (And this guy is weaker than Vegito so it applies to DBZ too)

This feat has a Kamehameha travelling to the edge of a 4-A realm in seconds, from a character weaker than Vegito by all margins. It also supports the current scaling.

EDIT: This QUADRILLION TIMES FTL FEAT on the original manga that was accepted as well

 

[M3X_2.0]

Alright that’s fine


Also

I’m sorry is this the rectify a multiplier thread or a “save the DBZ ratings” thread.

Both since I’m not removing everything and letting them be Rel 0.5c. I’m discussing some feats off-site but everything is just like FTL.

Granted, not everything is gonna get removed. Only the stuff that can’t be supported. With enough FTL feats some stuff can be saved.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Permission given by @Vietthai96 and @SomebodyData to comment on this thread.


Nope. We're not doing this.

What this thread does is actively limit characters' speeds by using Akira Toriyama's lack of explicit speed feats as justification, treating an absence of measurement as if it were an active anti-feat.

Notice that the thread cannot point to a single feat that contradicts the current ratings. Instead it relies entirely on silence. That is a critical distinction. Dragon Ball as a series does not depict speed in realistic, measurable terms outside of direct blitzing statements, Toriyama stacks those one on top of another. The absence of a neatly filmable speed feat is a property of the author's style, not evidence of a speed ceiling.

Furthermore, the claim that no feats exist in the range between 0.5c and 43,200,000,000,000c is NOT TRUE.

• An extremely casual Beerus, whom SSJ2 Rage Vegeta demonstrably surpasses, scales to 321 million times FTL. This places that Vegeta on par with Kid Buu, Super Buu, and comparable fighters, directly bridging the gap.
• The 43,200,000,000,000c figure does not stand alone, it has a directly comparable independent calculation supporting it.
• Manga Piccolo has a fully casual 51,000c feat on the lower end.
• In the original manga, Elder Kai, who has only 1,000 years remaining, explicitly states that Buucollo will eventually destroy the universe and reach their location, meaning even he does not consider himself safe. A being with a finite and relatively short lifespan treating universal destruction as a genuine personal threat implies it occurs on a humanly relevant timescale, which is entirely consistent with the current ratings.
• Cell presents the identical argument. He is not immortal. If he would destroy the universe, it follows that it would do so fast enough to matter.

It's ultimately unfair to Dragon Ball to be limited to Relativistic+ or any arbitrary multiplier limit, because of a writing choice from Toriyama to focus more on AP feats than Speed feats.


ONE MORE FEAT BROUGHT UP BY @Eden_Warlock99



This feat has a Kamehameha travelling to the edge of a 4-A realm in seconds, from a character weaker than Vegito by all margins. It also supports the current scaling.

Read the thread and then comment again. Not replying to this bullshit.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Read the thread and then comment again. Not replying to this bullshit.

Have a basic grasp of DB scaling and then make a thread about it.

SSJ2 Rage Vegeta scales back to original DB manga.
Cell and Buu points are about the original DB manga.
Daima feat scales back to the original DB manga.

Plus I've brought actual arguments against the very core of the OP. Don't reply if you don't want to, but it will stay there for anyone to see how your point is nonsense.

 

[Agnaa]

I’m sorry is this the rectify a multiplier thread or a “save the DBZ ratings” thread.

Needs to be replaced with another rating, and multipliers can be justified by feats in that range.

Permission given by @Vietthai96 and @SomebodyData to comment on this thread.


Nope. We're not doing this.

What this thread does is actively limit characters' speeds by using Akira Toriyama's lack of explicit speed feats as justification, treating an absence of measurement as if it were an active anti-feat.

Notice that the thread cannot point to a single feat that contradicts the current ratings. Instead it relies entirely on silence. That is a critical distinction. Dragon Ball as a series does not depict speed in realistic, measurable terms outside of direct blitzing statements, Toriyama stacks those one on top of another. The absence of a neatly filmable speed feat is a property of the author's style, not evidence of a speed ceiling.

It's not treating those as anti-feats, it's using our standards on Multipliers that apply to every verse.

Furthermore, the claim that no feats exist in the range between 0.5c and 43,200,000,000,000c is NOT TRUE.

• An extremely casual Beerus, whom SSJ2 Rage Vegeta demonstrably surpasses, scales to 321 million times FTL. This places that Vegeta on par with Kid Buu, Super Buu, and comparable fighters, directly bridging the gap.
• The 43,200,000,000,000c figure does not stand alone, it has a directly comparable independent calculation supporting it.
• Manga Piccolo has a fully casual 51,000c feat on the lower end.
• In the original manga, Elder Kai, who has only 1,000 years remaining, explicitly states that Buucollo will eventually destroy the universe and reach their location, meaning even he does not consider himself safe. A being with a finite and relatively short lifespan treating universal destruction as a genuine personal threat implies it occurs on a humanly relevant timescale, which is entirely consistent with the current ratings.
• Cell presents the identical argument. He is not immortal. If he would destroy the universe, it follows that it would do so fast enough to matter.

A lot of this seems to involve DBS (which was excluded by the OP, albeit in a way I would like more elaboration on). So I'd like clarification from others that know the verse better before I consider these too strongly.

A humanly relevant timescale isn't quite consistent with the current ratings. The current ratings are tens of thousands of times greater than what would be necessary for that, as I commented on earlier.

EDIT: This QUADRILLION TIMES FTL FEAT on the original manga that was accepted as well

If that was higher and accepted and scaled to combat speeds, why isn't it already on the pages? It's higher than the multiplier-sourced rating being discussed in the OP.

 

[SomebodyData]

Permission given by @Vietthai96 and @SomebodyData to comment on this thread.


Nope. We're not doing this.

What this thread does is actively limit characters' speeds by using Akira Toriyama's lack of explicit speed feats as justification, treating an absence of measurement as if it were an active anti-feat.

Notice that the thread cannot point to a single feat that contradicts the current ratings. Instead it relies entirely on silence. That is a critical distinction. Dragon Ball as a series does not depict speed in realistic, measurable terms outside of direct blitzing statements, Toriyama stacks those one on top of another. The absence of a neatly filmable speed feat is a property of the author's style, not evidence of a speed ceiling.

Furthermore, the claim that no feats exist in the range between 0.5c and 43,200,000,000,000c is NOT TRUE.

• An extremely casual Beerus, whom SSJ2 Rage Vegeta demonstrably surpasses, scales to 321 million times FTL. This places that Vegeta on par with Kid Buu, Super Buu, and comparable fighters, directly bridging the gap.
• The 43,200,000,000,000c figure does not stand alone, it has a directly comparable independent calculation supporting it.
• Manga Piccolo has a fully casual 51,000c feat on the lower end.
• In the original manga, Elder Kai, who has only 1,000 years remaining, explicitly states that Buucollo will eventually destroy the universe and reach their location, meaning even he does not consider himself safe. A being with a finite and relatively short lifespan treating universal destruction as a genuine personal threat implies it occurs on a humanly relevant timescale, which is entirely consistent with the current ratings.
• Cell presents the identical argument. He is not immortal. If he would destroy the universe, it follows that it would do so fast enough to matter.

It's ultimately unfair to Dragon Ball to be limited to Relativistic+ or any arbitrary multiplier limit, because of a writing choice from Toriyama to focus more on AP feats than Speed feats.


ONE MORE FEAT BROUGHT UP BY @Eden_Warlock99



This feat has a Kamehameha travelling to the edge of a 4-A realm in seconds, from a character weaker than Vegito by all margins. It also supports the current scaling.

Permission given by @Vietthai96 and @SomebodyData to comment on this thread.


Nope. We're not doing this.

What this thread does is actively limit characters' speeds by using Akira Toriyama's lack of explicit speed feats as justification, treating an absence of measurement as if it were an active anti-feat.

Notice that the thread cannot point to a single feat that contradicts the current ratings. Instead it relies entirely on silence. That is a critical distinction. Dragon Ball as a series does not depict speed in realistic, measurable terms outside of direct blitzing statements, Toriyama stacks those one on top of another. The absence of a neatly filmable speed feat is a property of the author's style, not evidence of a speed ceiling.

Furthermore, the claim that no feats exist in the range between 0.5c and 43,200,000,000,000c is NOT TRUE.

• An extremely casual Beerus, whom SSJ2 Rage Vegeta demonstrably surpasses, scales to 321 million times FTL. This places that Vegeta on par with Kid Buu, Super Buu, and comparable fighters, directly bridging the gap.
• The 43,200,000,000,000c figure does not stand alone, it has a directly comparable independent calculation supporting it.
• Manga Piccolo has a fully casual 51,000c feat on the lower end.
• In the original manga, Elder Kai, who has only 1,000 years remaining, explicitly states that Buucollo will eventually destroy the universe and reach their location, meaning even he does not consider himself safe. A being with a finite and relatively short lifespan treating universal destruction as a genuine personal threat implies it occurs on a humanly relevant timescale, which is entirely consistent with the current ratings.
• Cell presents the identical argument. He is not immortal. If he would destroy the universe, it follows that it would do so fast enough to matter.

It's ultimately unfair to Dragon Ball to be limited to Relativistic+ or any arbitrary multiplier limit, because of a writing choice from Toriyama to focus more on AP feats than Speed feats.


ONE MORE FEAT BROUGHT UP BY @Eden_Warlock99



This feat has a Kamehameha travelling to the edge of a 4-A realm in seconds, from a character weaker than Vegito by all margins. It also supports the current scaling.

How many of these feats scale to the manga version of Fusion Saga SSJ Vegito (The limit to the scaling blog and the 43 trillion C character)?

Seems the majority are entirely irrelevant to the conversation at hand otherwise.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

A lot of this seems to involve DBS (which was excluded by the OP, albeit in a way I would like more elaboration on). So I'd like clarification from others that know the verse better before I consider these too strongly.

A humanly relevant timescale isn't quite consistent with the current ratings.

How many of these feats scale to Fusion Saga SSJ Vegito?

The SSJ2 Rage Vegeta feat.
The Cell and Buu feats as well.
The Daima feat, and the Daima feat is extremely relevant because it's the most consistent of them all with the current ratings.

Given the most longevity Cell has is around 300 years, and he could only destroy a Solar System range worth of material per charged attack, it's safe to assume he would have to destroy things at MFTL+ speeds, and he scales far far below Fusion SSJ Vegito.

Using a conservative calculation, that's AT LEAST 300 million times faster than light, and more if you consider he has to destroy 2.11 × 10^13 solar systems per second.

I think it's relevant. I will abstain from commenting any further on the thread, as the permission likely didn't extend beyond the initial post and this reply.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

EDIT: This QUADRILLION TIMES FTL FEAT on the original manga that was accepted as well

I don't remember anyone ever reacting to the gathering of ki for the Genkidama. So at best, this would be attack speed that doesn't scale to anyone.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I don't think power progression is meant to fall under the category of "importance to the plot", given this.

I mean for Dragon Ball the multipliers are connected heavily to the story:

• The Kaioken is noted as multiplying speed and power based on the stated number
• Vegeta notes that as power increases speed increases
• Frieza uses % limits on his strength with Goku's Kaio-Ken x20 being comparable to Frieza's 50%
• Super Saiyan's 50x Multiplier lets Goku casually surpass Frieza's 100% strength

There's always been a UES and a generalized strength increase in Dragon Ball. Most major multipliers are complete amps, and characters can regularly compete with characters who have their base stats heavily increased through these multiplier chains. The issue I'd see is more that you have a displayed vs calc gap, but that itself wouldn't negate the validity of the multipliers.

 

[Agnaa]

I mean for Dragon Ball the multipliers are connected heavily to the story:

• The Kaioken is noted as multiplying speed and power based on the stated number
• Vegeta notes that as power increases speed increases
• Frieza uses % limits on his strength with Goku's Kaio-Ken x20 being comparable to Frieza's 50%
• Super Saiyan's 50x Multiplier lets Goku casually surpass Frieza's 100% strength

You're not demonstrating connection to the story with these.

The issue I'd see is more that you have a displayed vs calc gap, but that itself wouldn't negate the validity of the multipliers.

Our standards on Multipliers literally say that.

However, a good statement alone is not enough to get a high multiplier accepted. The amount of extra evidence one has to provide to get larger multipliers accepted is proportional to the size of the multiplier. For lower multipliers, like things much less than times 100, evidence can take the form of a clear increase in combat strength against priorly equal or superior opponents. For higher multipliers, like times 100 and above, the importance of stronger evidence, such as feats displaying power of a similar magnitude as the value the multiplier points to or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story, and a higher amount of evidence becomes increasingly necessary.

 

[Qawsedf234]

You're not demonstrating connection to the story with these.

How am I not? These multipliers are given verbatim, following a clear and logical throughline, and line up with themselves when mapped out.

Our standards on Multipliers literally say that.

We see that shown explicitly with AP. Super Perfect Cell and SS2 Gohan, through these multipliers, get within the ballpark of their 1 KiloFoe showing. Which, as laid out by the AP blog, is incredibly consistent with the current multiplier scaling chain. Since Dragon Ball is a UES, these speed and power multipliers have to be within the same magnitude increase of each other.

 

[Agnaa]

How am I not? These multipliers are given verbatim, following a clear and logical throughline, and line up with themselves when mapped out.

• "These statements indicate a connection to the story."
• "No they don't."
• "How don't they? These statements are stated and consistent with each other."

I don't understand how you could even think that's a connection to the story. Your evidence is nowhere in the realm of the claim you're saying they support.

We see that shown explicitly with AP. Super Perfect Cell and SS2 Gohan, through these multipliers, get within the ballpark of their 1 KiloFoe showing. Which, as laid out by the AP blog, is incredibly consistent with the current multiplier scaling chain.

I don't think we consider multipliers tightly entwined like that.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I don't understand how you could even think that's a connection to the story. Your evidence is nowhere in the realm of the claim you're saying they support.

You're misrepresenting my argument with this line of thinking. In actuality its:

• "These statements indicate a connection to the story."
• "No they don't."
• "How don't they? These statements are stated within the story, consistent with the story's established narrative power scaling, and when mapped out, are consistent as a logical through path."

Please explain to me how multiple stated power increases, that are stated verbatim within the work and are consistent within the work, aren't story-related Agnaa.

I don't think we consider multipliers tightly entwined like that.

We do, since this is a pure UES system. Strength increases, as does endurance, speed, and general power output. If they get 50 times stronger, they get 50 times faster. This is stated in both the work itself and in almost every supplemental material covering these power increases.

 

[Saqphire]

Got perms from Agnaa

Permission.

Don't we currently accepted the Demon Realm as like a 4-A sized realm at minimum? Surely this would be an FTL feat by that logic then?

Attack speed feat. The premise is attacking combat speed here and that also goes with the Genki Dama calc that I was quoted with

Furthermore, the claim that no feats exist in the range between 0.5c and 43,200,000,000,000c is NOT TRUE.

• An extremely casual Beerus, whom SSJ2 Rage Vegeta demonstrably surpasses, scales to 321 million times FTL. This places that Vegeta on par with Kid Buu, Super Buu, and comparable fighters, directly bridging the gap.

Not an accepted calc + doesn't support 43,200,000,000,000c but rather millions instead + it's the anime.

• The 43,200,000,000,000c figure does not stand alone, it has a directly comparable independent calculation supporting it.

If you mean the DBS anime feat, then it's irrelevant as it's the DBZ manga we're talking about if you read the OP properly.

• Manga Piccolo has a fully casual 51,000c feat on the lower end.

Does not support 43,200,000,000,000c at all + Piccolo doesn't fully scale to that because he's not moving the same distance as the ship. You have to downscale his speed from it. Plus it's calc stacking cuz the calc explicitly says:

In Dragon Ball Super, at the end of Ch. 51, a spaceship flies towards Earth, and by the middle of Ch. 52, it gets there. Later, Piccolo reacts to the ship going full speed.

Plus we're talking about DBZ here mainly.

• In the original manga, Elder Kai, who has only 1,000 years remaining, explicitly states that Buucollo will eventually destroy the universe and reach their location, meaning even he does not consider himself safe. A being with a finite and relatively short lifespan treating universal destruction as a genuine personal threat implies it occurs on a humanly relevant timescale, which is entirely consistent with the current ratings.

This argument presupposes Boo will reach their location when Elder Kai is alive and that Boo will do so in his Boocolo form AND that Boocolo would do it with raw speed. None of this is necessarily true and plus, Kid Boo reached the Kaioshin Realm with Kai Kai anyway, which is teleportation and not speed.

• Cell presents the identical argument. He is not immortal. If he would destroy the universe, it follows that it would do so fast enough to matter.

Cell is not immortal indeed, but this doesn't mean he'd destroy the Universe in a "short enough" timeframe with combat or flight speed, that's a presupposition on your end here.

Ultimately all of these examples are either from the anime, are vague statements that don't mean much of anything relevant for the premise, are faulty, don't support the final gigantic end, are attack speed feats which I explicitly talked about in my own post here or any combination of the above.

as the two statements justifying it explicitly say that their speed is what's being increased, not their attack speed with abilities like Kamehameha. In fact, there are zero statements that I remember saying that it applies to those in the first place.

 

[SomebodyData]

The SSJ2 Rage Vegeta feat.
The Cell and Buu feats as well.
The Daima feat, and the Daima feat is extremely relevant because it's the most consistent of them all with the current ratings.

Given the most longevity Cell has is around 300 years, and he could only destroy a Solar System range worth of material per charged attack, it's safe to assume he would have to destroy things at MFTL+ speeds, and he scales far far below Fusion SSJ Vegito.

Using a conservative calculation, that's AT LEAST 300 million times faster than light, and more if you consider he has to destroy 2.11 × 10^13 solar systems per second.

I think it's relevant. I will abstain from commenting any further on the thread, as the permission likely didn't extend beyond the initial post and this reply.

The Cell feat I think is worth looking deeper into, I can agree with you there to a degree.

The Buu feat (as we see in the comments above) really doesn't seem to be what you're saying here. Elder Kai makes no indication that he'll be alive when Buu eventually arrives there and we know Buu's previous rate of destroying the universe was pretty extremely slow (Just FTL+ - MFTL range).

Ssj2 Rage Vegeta is currently rated as far above the Buu Saga characters. Hell iirc there was a thread arguing base BoSuper Goku one shots Kid Buu (Also that's a Super anime feat, not manga)

Daima feat, same as above.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

For years, I've actually been in favor of revitalizing out multipliers policy rather than repeat the same verse specific debates that have been done trillions of times for far too long or have had far too many repeated discussions for. But in other conversations atm.

Going back to my own statement, I have found the thread where we considered revising or changing our policies. DontTalkDT eventually closed it, but I don't think we ever got around to making a new thread to continue our proposal to change those rules. And I honestly still agree with the same arguments and points I have made throughout that very thread. But the Kaioken multipliers are quite blatant of being "Strength, Power, Endurance, and speed multiplier." And later sources basically confirmed SSJ is a 50x one, consistent that Kaioken x20 mainly did minor scratches on a 50% Frieza with fully charged Kamehameha, where as even a slightly holding back Goku considered 100% Frieza to be "Too easy." And then some for SSJ2 and SSJ3 later down the line.

Though I've really only agreed with linear transformations being used as reliable multipliers. I was never the biggest fan of using generic "He's gotten nearly 20 times stronger after training on 10 G's" to apply to speed and AP as assumed equal jump. There's obvious correlations that becoming stronger in one or the other approaches a pattern for an increase in both, but it's not like every PL increase ever is 100% linear for both.

 

[Vietthai96]

This argument presupposes Boo will reach their location when Elder Kai is alive and that Boo will do so in his Boocolo form AND that Boocolo would do it with raw speed. None of this is necessarily true and plus, Kid Boo reached the Kaioshin Realm with Kai Kai anyway, which is teleportation and not speed.

It stil can apply to Kid Buu as dude have been universal threat before in the past, before his absorption and sealing away. Kai Kai is irrelevant as he did not have it until he copied from Shin when he saw Shin perform it. Just saying

Daima feat, same as above.

Daima follows DBZ manga, and it is just nearly 1 year after Buu. Just saying

 

[Agnaa]

You're misrepresenting my argument with this line of thinking. In actuality its:

• "These statements indicate a connection to the story."
• "No they don't."
• "How don't they? These statements are stated within the story, consistent with the story's established narrative power scaling, and when mapped out, are consistent as a logical through path."

Please explain to me how multiple stated power increases, that are stated verbatim within the work and are consistent within the work, aren't story-related Agnaa.

Because "being stated within the work" and "being consistent" are other aspects of the requirements for Multipliers.

Multipliers come from direct statements instead of being reasoned from something else.

Lastly, multipliers will obviously only be used if they are not contradicted.

Clearly "importance to the plot of the story" MUST mean something different. In what world would we believe "Any multipliers, even quadrillions, are fine, as long as the statement comes from the work itself instead of a guide book or WoG", and decide to write that down into our rules in this way?

We do, since this is a pure UES system. Strength increases, as does endurance, speed, and general power output. If they get 50 times stronger, they get 50 times faster. This is stated in both the work itself and in almost every supplemental material covering these power increases.

This seems suspect. Doesn't Kaio-Ken reduce endurance, rather than increasing it?

Ultimately, since this is gesturing at information I don't have, I'll leave it to the experts to discuss and present evidence for, before evaluating.