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All I'm saying isAh
Well at least they can WANK
We got the strongest Superman on the same tier as the strongest Thor
We still even
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General DC Comics Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Confluctor
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- dc comics
We got the strongest Superman on the same tier as the strongest Thor
We still even
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There are some victories I suppose...
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On the note of possible tier 1 high tier herald upgrades (Superman etc)
New Gods also have claims to higher dimensional/Tier 1 scaling especially when they're in their emanation Godworlds
New Gods also have claims to higher dimensional/Tier 1 scaling especially when they're in their emanation Godworlds
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Post-Crisis Kryptonians have not demonstrated the immeasurable speed that Pre-Crisis Kryptonians are causally capable of obtaining to travel through time (at least not consistently). Even for the more powerful Rebirth Superman, I would only give him possibly immeasurable speed at best. There are though some feats in Pre-Crisis and even in Post-Crisis that could give both eras immeasurable lifting strength. For example Pre-Crisis Superman's ability to travel through time has been described as a speed AND strength feat. In Post-Crisis, Despero has overhead pressed The Rock of Eternity which is the magical nexus at the center of The Orrery of Worlds.
While I agree that Marvel having 1A heralds is quite outlandish, I don't think that we should try to modify the tier of DC characters based on what is going on in Marvel. We should not try to force Superman into having 1A statistics just because Thor or Hulk has them. They are separate verses with separate situations. Unlike Superman, Thor at least has some (though kind of dubious) mechanisms for having up to 1A statistics in base form. There are of course things that violate the rules of qualitative distinction like the Iron Man Armor Model 38 (The Phoenix Buster) which is somehow 1A despite merely being a suit built by Tony Stark without any mechanisms for being rated so high. Still, just because one thing is inconsistent, this should not persuade us to do the same thing with DC.
I don't think we should go about this in a manner where we are looking at DC character statistics as a competition against the statistics of Marvel characters (or any other verse for that matter). Besides, at least DC has a relatively consistent cosmology that is not always being undermined by bad writers as is happening with Marvel at the moment. At least when an author at DC adds their own stuff to the cosmology it (generally) fits in with what has been established.
Marvel’s Cosmology has always been extremely nebulous, far more so than even DC's. DC at least has been laying the groundwork for a coherent Cosmology since the mid 2000s. Grant Morrison, the architect of DC's cosmology, has personally been planning even before that planting the seeds for future ideas all the way back in his Doom Patrol run in the 90s and later working with Mark Waid to create Hypertime. Additionally, Grant Morrison made it quite clear with his official Map of the Local Multiverse where each structure is defined of which Marvel still has no equivalent. For the most part, Morrisonian Cosmology has been widely adopted by practically every writer at DC, and while it has been tweaked and added to, such as by Scott Snyder, it has largely remained the same. With only writers such as JM DeMatteis somewhat straying away from the established framework, but even his content can be incorporated in a logical matter without breaking anything. The established DC cosmology is being constantly referenced, shown, and reinforced while Marvels is not. Marvel on the other hand is only in the beginning stages of cleaning up and clarifying their cosmology and unfortunately the work of Al-Ewing, Marvel's cosmology architect, has been largely ignored by many writers and has not been enforced the way cosmology standardization has been in DC. There also seems to be a level of ego at Marvel where writers simply want to do their own thing instead of keeping things consistent. This can be seen in the Infamous Storm Run, in Infernal Hulk with the Mother of Horrors as a being who emerged from nothing in the same way as TOAA and is outside of his control, with the retcon of The Beyonders origins as creations of the Celestials to being the creation of a creation (Cal-Horra) of the Celestials, to even changing the threat level of the Enigma Dominion as established in Defenders Beyond from a threat to TOAA himself to merely a threat beyond the abstracts, and many many other changes and contradictions. These are just the recent contradictions to Ewing’s cosmology by current writers, this does not take into account all of the contradictory material from decades of marvel publishing prior to the Ewing’s attempt to make things coherent that still needs to be sorted out. Marvel also has the extreme disadvantage over DC for the fact that Marvel has always heavily featured their abstract and most powerful entities in stories going back many decades, whereas DC tends to reserve them for special events or keep them out of sight in the background. This method of storytelling done by Marvel allows for far more contradictions, anti-feats, and over inflated statistics. Furthermore, it is often assumed arbitrarily if an abstract is in their universal form or multiversal form. At least in DC it is easy to differentiate between the Avatar, Emanation, and the Godhead depictions of a New God for example. While in Marvel this is not so clear for the abstracts unless directly stated that the entity depicted is Eternity or Multi-Eternity or Universal Death or Multiversal Death etc. Given all of these issues, it will unfortunately be many years before an accurate, coherent, and consistent Marvel cosmology emerges where it reaches a level that DC has had since Multiversity.
The reality is Superman does not have a mechanism to reach 1A and personally, I would never rate him that high. Whenever Superman has seemingly performed a 1A feat, there is an in lore explanation as to how that occurred. It shows that he had external help, there were unique circumstances, or mechanisms such as Boom Tubes were in play which amplify or diminish whatever goes through them to adapt to the plane in which the individual or object is heading. From what I have found, I think it is reasonable to put CERTAIN Rebirth Heralds (Hal Jordan, Superman, Doctor Light, Black Adam, The Flash, and Dark Pariah) in the 1C (6D) to 1C (8D) range as I showed in my post on Rebirth Heralds a few pages back (page 166). This would not scale to every herald as most of these feats either do not scale to anyone besides the one who carried it out, or that character has a varies mechanism that would make it difficult to determine if they were really operating at their peak capacity when facing other characters.
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Can we give him immeasurable for fighting time trapper Superboy Prime outside of timestream
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Post-Crisis Superman might be able to have a "possibly immeasurable speed" statistic at his full capacity but not straight up immeasurable speed.
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Post-Crisis Superman probably got infinite speed during the JL 1 Million event when he flew out of the Tesseract, which is stated to be infinite space. And its inhabitants use portals to travel in and out of the Tesseract. Also there are many Tesseracts, and Superman Prime One Million is considered as extraordinary by its citizens because he was able to leap between Tesseracts in a single bound, much like how people view Superman for being able to leap tall buildings in a single bound in main earth.
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There are at least 54 statements of the DC universe being infinite in size (those were just the ones that I have compiled so far that I posted back on page 161 there are likely many more that have not been found yet). As such there will be a few Post-Crisis heralds like Green Lanterns and Wonder Woman with infinite speed for universe crossing statements, with some of them like Superman, being possibly immeasurable at their peak. I personally have never looked for Post-Crisis Superman time travel via speed feats, but it is possible that there is one or more out there. This could give him a varies up to immeasurable instead of just being possibly immeasurable if there are any such feats. I am still kind of skeptical of giving Superman possibly immeasurable speed for fighting the Time Trapper, because that is not how he fights.
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Ah ok. 1C stuff for Rebirth Heralds at their greatest extent I agree with. It is nice that there are multiple feats by different characters in that range.
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Yeah and I do think it's reserved for the  strongest of the heralds alone too
Normal Heralds can remain at 2-A
On another note what's your take on The New Gods?
Not their true forms in the Sphere (obv those are busted)
But their in-multiverse emanations
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I'm still confused about the emanation of the God World. In The Multiversity, the New Gods explain that each universe has its own emanation of the New Gods. However, in Justice League (2011) and other New 52 comics, Apokolips is referred to as another world outside the multiverse rather than a parallel universe. Even the Guardians, who knows everything of the universe, are unable to comprehend Apokolips stuff. This seems to contradict what was stated in The Multiversity.
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Not really
Heck even in Pre Crisis Godworlds existed beyond the Multiverse and even those were emanations
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I consider avatars of the New Gods to be any appearance by a New God character outside of the God Worlds of New Genesis and Apokolips. As such, for fodder tier New Gods in avatar forms, they are typically in the mid to high superhuman range and top tier New Gods like Darkseid, Orion, and High Father range from Superman level all the way up to 1 layer above baseline 1A when operating outside the Godworlds. On average, High Father is more consistently portrayed as above Superman level when in the material plane than Darkseid; however, Darkseid has been treated pretty well lately such as his appearance in Batman / Superman where he shrugged off two supermen without even flinching.
The Godheads themselves (the abstraction, the theme, and the very concept that each New God represents is baseline High-1A). These are not physical beings and are entirely abstract conceptual beings. Eventually I will get around to properly categorizing every appearance of the main character New Gods into their three categories as Avatar forms outside of the Godworlds, Emanation forms on the Godworlds outside of physical reality, and the transcendent conceptual Godhead form.
I am surprised that Metron has never had a key. Of all the New Gods it is Metron who actually has the greatest potential, as even Darkseid believes that eventually he will achieve his objective to pass beyond all barriers to become one with the Source. Darkseid even once stated that he hopes Metron remembers him as his benefactor when he achieves his goal.
Before I get to all of this stuff I have to get through all of the components of physical reality before I move on to the metaphysical.
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Well so, that statement saying each physical universe hosting its own new gods could be false.
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There's multiple godworlds that work differently
Heck some are IN the normal DC universe that can be flown to
Others are extradimensional
While others transcend the multiverse but aren't the Godheads
Personally you CAN argue Low 1-C to 1-C (5-6D) for the consistent interpretation of the godworlds given they're  mostly treated as extradimensional beings (emanations) with Metron going through 28 dimensions in Brynes New Gods and Morrisons JLA rock of ages stuff
Kind of lines up with even emanations being "beyond space and time"
Then there's the low end.... space aliens with good tech! Because some writers never understood Jack The King Kirbys stuff and thought that they were just aliens when Kirby outright even STATES in Hunger Dogs they symbolize natural imperfections native to all but The Source
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Can you show me the scan so i can understand it more clearly?
if this is true, The Apokolips that transformed superman to God of Strength should be the transcends multiverse but not godhead one at least, to make it consistent with The Guardian who know everything of the universe cant comprehend apokolips stuff in the same comic, and other statement refered apokolips as somewhere else outside multiverse.
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Here
This is from Pre Crisis mind you
But basically the God Worlds are other dimensional realms beyond the bounds of time and space in their own continuum
They were also unaffected by COIE which messed with infinite universes
So Godworlds (otherdimensional and beyond space and time) > infinite universes
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I think this qualifies for Low 1-C on its own imo
Correct me if I'm wrong but having a timeline > infinite others is Low 1-C right?
Then there's the Post Crisis Higher Dimensional stuff that namedrops dimensions
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I don't really understand tiering system, i just do chain scalling.
I think God of strength Superman should scale to godworld outside multiverse at least
I think God of strength Superman should scale to godworld outside multiverse at least
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I mean if you think so
Basically the whole New 52 never interacted with the Sphere as far as I know only emanation worlds/higher tier avatars
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I don't know which godworld in that event darkseid war, but it should not be the emanations that exist in each physical universe because its very contradict.
The Anti-Monitor had already traveled to another parallel world at the beginning of darkseid war, and no other Darkseid appeared at that time, in the conversation between Mobius and Metron, Mobius stated that he wanted to fight Darkseid and metron stated Darkseid will come for him, while Darkseid himself was on Apokolips. This indicates that there is only one Darkseid or Godworld, unlike what is stated in The Multiversity, where each parallel world has its own emanation of the New Gods. Furthermore, while Darkseid, Superman & Lex was at the same Apokolips during that event darkseid war, Superman also mentioned that he had been to Apokolips before(when he was captured and taken there, and Batman went there to rescue him). So, this should be the same Apokolips shown at the beginning of Justice League Vol 2, where the Guardian could not comprehend an object from Apokolips and Batman also stated that Apokolips is "somewhere else," rather than being just another parallel world, He also mentioned that he had made a quick visit to Apokolips, which is when he rescued superman at the beginning of JL Vol 2, suggests that it is the same Apokolips that the Guardian who knowing everything in the universe, could not comprehend.
at this point, i even think there is no emanation of godworld since they are consistently stated to be another world only accessible via boom tube. In that event, Superman and Lex also transported via boom tube and superman stated the only way back to earth is boom tube. Until he adapt to Godworld environtment and become a god of strength, he able to fly back to earth without boom tube.
correct me if im wrong
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all event here is in JL vol 2 and Batman & Robin vol 2. which is new 52
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Darkseid, during the time of the New 52, had his godhead shattered since the Final Crisis. After Death Metal, all of his lesser fragments were reabsorbed into the prime Darkseid to restore his godhead.
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i know, but i think there is no emanation of godworld in each physical world like what stated in multiversity
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I mean, we have seen alternate versions of New Gods and even Godworlds located INSIDE the stabdard universe
Basically different godworlds with different cosmological standings outside the true ones
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can we scale god of strength superman to god world, even if its not the sphere of gods one, it should not be the physical world emanation one?
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dont know, but the god world that superman adapting to should not be the physical emanation one
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It's the extradimensional one I'm sure
Still physical but higher dimensional iirc
As Constantines run shows Conceptual forces below the Sphere exist in higher dimensions that affect the universe they're from
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Can we give tier 1 for new key of new 52 Superman (God of strength)
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No because New 52 sucks XD
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Im sure its extradimensional godworld or sphere of gods one.
But if its a physical emanation of darkseid like what stated in multiversity where each parallel world hosting its own new gods, then Mobius should have encountered other Darkseid in the other parallel world he destroyed before arriving on the main Earth. However, no other emanations of Darkseid appear during that sequence & the comic only shows one Darkseid. The same darkseid or godworld Batman stated they're somewhere else rather than just being parallel world and the guardian who knowing everything of universe don't knowing apokolips stuff.
Also while mobius traveling through other parallel world & destroy it, metron even stated darkseid wrath will come for him. This indicates Mobius never encountered with darkseid when he destroyed another parallel world which mean there is no physical world emanation of new gods like what it stated in multiversity.
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That could also be summed up as the New Gods having only 1 emanation in the New 52 sure
But remember recently it's treated as an alternate timeline (Low 1-C timelines fr fr)
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Superman new 52 at least have extradimensional feat
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I mean sure?
But it's pretty much wholesale agreed New 52 is the weakest for mainline heroes
NOT PARADEMONS THO!
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Superman couldn't simply fly from Apokolips back to Earth casually in his base level. He explicitly stated that the only way to get home was through a Boom Tube, the same way he had been transported there. After ascending to God of Strength Superman, he was able to travel back to Earth using only his own flight.
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New 52 Superman will never be any higher than 2A and that statistic was already rejected by Antvasima anyway because it involved scaling to He-Man which violates the crossover rule so Superman will remain 4B. Given that no additional New-52 content will ever be published, there is no way to get him any higher. I believe that there are unique circumstances in this crossover that make scaling New-52 Superman to He-Man acceptable; (Skeletor's exposure to Hypertime after being banished by John Constantine was a fundamental component of The Eternity War storyline without which the events that took place would not have occurred. Additionally, Master's of the Universe was being published by DC at the time so they were all under the same publication as well.) however, even with these conditions I agree that is probably for the best to avoid crossovers even if there is logic behind scaling characters between two IPs as it is likely to eventually cause inconsistencies and other problems eventually.
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He should scale to godworld for adapting to it while he was weakened with no sun's light around him
