UNDERTALE/DELTARUNE [shiny new] DISCUSSION THEAD

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Anyway, did you guys know that deltarune elemental system is a dualism inside a dualism that is inside dualism ?

God forbid someone makes a joke about the will-never-touch-Latin-America Tobias. But you're actively ignoring the main objection, and no, the argument still works fine because Deltarune is far from being competent in programming either way.

The issue is the medium itself. Hiring programmers doesn't change the fact that Deltarune runs on a pixel art engine with limited frames per animation. That's a property of the game engine and art direction, not the dev team size.

Single-frame calcs in stylized 2D games are methodologically indefensible. Animation frames are not motion-captured physics. They are artistic choices chosen to maximize visual impact and readability.

When the man too scared to translate "hi" to "hola" animated, or hires someone to animate Kris lunging off a window ledge and landing, they are picking the most dramatic keyframes. The "distance traveled per frame" reflects what looks good on a 16x16 sprite sheet, not what the character physically did between those frames.

The LW window jump proves this perfectly: run the full arc, you get human-range values. Cherry-pick a single frame? Suddenly Kris has superhuman strength.

This is a fundamental problem with applying frame-measurement methodology to any game that uses stylized discrete animation

It is game world tho

It like homestuck

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Like the dualism frogs have with rabbits or how cats have with rats as well thermodynamics of the world working via emotions

We also have gods that are above the game Rules and existence as well element making reference to deitys and such

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Like it even explain why the dark world is soo cold

They are a "cyber" reality by the mind of lightner who use thier own determinetion to shape the shapeless mass before creation.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Also the noelle big Freeze theory.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Yap

Btw, all this yap is born out from misinformation of Armor comment of Wolf ice throw.
For the record, Wolf lifts ice cube over their head in 1 frame. Armor objected to it being calculated like this, cus it was done in 1 frame due to programming constraints, aka "Toby and Temmie won't make detailed animation of Wolf lifting cube, something that most people would miss anyway", not because it was intended as feat of incredible speed(like Asgore swinging his trident is).
Idk how it relates to Mike case at all. "Maus" is important tool for fights, it can cover large distances in 1 frame, it is supposed to be that fast to make fight against Mike manageable.

Animation frames are not motion-captured physics. They are artistic choices chosen to maximize visual impact and readability.

In our case it was gamedev decision. "Maus should be fast, otherwise dealing with Mike attacks would be too hard". Maus is intended to be fast

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Btw, all this yap is born out from misinformation of Armor comment of Wolf ice throw.
For the record, Wolf lifts ice cube over their head in 1 frame. Armor objected to it being calculated like this, cus it was done in 1 frame due to programming constraints, aka "Toby and Temmie won't make detailed animation of Wolf lifting cube, something that most people would miss anyway", not because it was intended as feat of incredible speed(like Asgore swinging his trident is).
Idk how it relates to Mike case at all. "Maus" is important tool for fights, it can cover large distances in 1 frame, it is supposed to be that fast to make fight against Mike manageable.


In our case it was gamedev decision. "Maus should be fast, otherwise dealing with Mike attacks would be too hard". Maus is intended to be fast

Maus is not intended generate 100 tonnes of force, as you literally prove this by crediting its speed for the sake of game mechanics.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Maus is not intended generate 100 tonnes of force

Says who? It's not like it shown to stop big, fast approaching cat balls with ease

you literally prove this by crediting its speed for the sake of game mechanics.

My brother in Christ, did you forget what games we are talking about? Entire premise of UT is how SAVE/LOAD (gameplay mechanic) is real in it.
We have this ******* scene in DR for god sake. We do take gameplay mechanics in UTDR in face value, unless there exists contradicting evidence.
Maus is actual thing in verse, Mike do actually attack Gang with load of bullshit, and Gang only way to respond to it is via Maus(they can't fight Mikes, they can't heal themselves, they can't use items in this fight). If Maus is actually slow, like you for some reason imply, Gang would be cooked

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Says who? It's not like it shown to stop big, fast approaching cat balls with ease

My brother in Christ, did you forget what games we are talking about? Entire premise of UT is how SAVE/LOAD (gameplay mechanic) is real in it.
We have this ******* scene in DR for god sake. We do take gameplay mechanics in UTDR in face value, unless there exists contradicting evidence.
Maus is actual thing in verse, Mike do actually attack Gang with load of nonsense, and Gang only way to respond to it is via Maus. If Maus is actually slow, like you insist, Gang would be finished

Start by adjusting your tone. This discussion does not benefit from heat.

Second,

It's not like it shown to stop big

Those cats are not presented with consistent scale, nor do they react to explosions in any grounded way. They function as elements of a mini-game. That is not a reliable indicator of physical strength or durability.

Entire premise of UT is how SAVE/LOAD (gameplay mechanic) is real in it.
We have this ******* scene in DR for god sake.

This is a misapplication of scope. You are taking a confirmed narrative mechanic and extending its validity to unrelated interactions without criteria.

Yes, SAVE and LOAD are integrated into the lore. They are explicitly framed, reinforced, and contextualized. That is why they hold narrative weight. That does not grant automatic legitimacy to every player-controlled behavior. Presence alone is not proof of intent.

By that logic, any input becomes canon by default. That standard collapses immediately.

There is a clear distinction here. Lore-integrated mechanics are supported by framing and consistency.
Raw interactions are not.

Even if one assumes the speed is intended, the calculation still fails. Kinetic energy and force require environmental response. There is none. No displacement, no damage, no reaction. The absence of these factors directly contradicts the scale you are trying to assign. This is actually a rule in the wiki, you can't use KE for that same reason.

If Maus is actually slow, like you for some reason imply, Gang would be cooked

This misrepresents the argument.

I did not argue that Maus is slow.
I stated that its observed speed serves gameplay function, not physical scaling. You literally admit to it.

Those are not interchangeable.

I can increase mouse sensitivity to extreme values. Do we use THAT mouse speed to scale then? Ridiculous. Of course not.

We're not using that calc.

 

[IDK3465]

gang, we need to stop fighting over bs like this

 

[GodlyCharmander]

gang, we need to stop fighting over bs like this

@Qurbonboev literally turned this into a fight, I have and will remain civil.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah we need to stop fighting

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Agreed. Is there any need to be throwing little micro-heated comments like. "oh for F's sake! We have this F'ing evidence HERE! My brother in christ!" after exchanging two (2) messages on the subject civilly?

I certainly don't think so, it's not that deep gng.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Start by adjusting your tone. This discussion does not benefit from heat.

Ok. (Disagree with my tone being in any way bad, but won't push on this)

Kinetic energy and force require environmental response. There is none. No displacement, no damage, no reaction.

You are misinterpreting rule. It requires that feat shouldn't have contradicting environmental response, but it's not requirements to have one. If MHS iron ball fails to damage building it hit, KE is invalid. But if it misses and doesn't damage anything on screen, it's still valid, as long is there no contradictions.

I stated that its observed speed serves gameplay function, not physical scaling.

So what is the actual speed of Maus, may I inquire?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Ok. (Disagree with my tone being in any way bad, but won't push on this)

I don't think you intended for it to be bad, I understand how it can be frustrating when you genuinely believe someone is being unfair to your points. I don't intend to do that either, I'm listening to you.

But you saw how people were reading our conversation as a fight, and that sets bad precedents. Tone shapes how arguments are received, I think expressing frustration in such a manner adds friction, just explain your point to me, I will listen to it as fairly as I can.

You are misinterpreting rule. It requires that feat shouldn't have contradicting environmental response, but it's not requirements to have one. If MHS iron ball fails to damage building it hit, KE is invalid. But if it misses and doesn't damage anything on screen, it's still valid, as long is there no contradictions.

I'm using it as a basis for my conclusion. I think the same logic applies here.

The rule assumes a coherent physical framework where interaction is expected but simply not observed. That only works when the system itself behaves consistently with real-world physics, that is not the case here.

You are not dealing with an object moving through a stable environment. You are dealing with a direct input system, where motion is detached from mass, inertia, and resistance. The absence of interaction is not neutral evidence. It is a structural limitation of the system. The fact it has no interaction even though it should have, is evidence that the interaction itself is not MEANT to represent strength and acceleration, or any realistic depiction of physics. That is the imperative word. I wouldn't have a problem with Maus being that strong through other calcs, like lifting something, genuinely. But the calc presupposes realism, I disagree with that.

So what is the actual speed of Maus, may I inquire?

I don't know. It's a game mechanic that operates with mouse speeds in PCs, and other speeds in consoles, I doubt any speed is more canon than the other, right?

But you're missing a point here. Speed is not the disputed variable. The interpretation of that speed is. You can assign a value to the movement if you want. That alone does not justify deriving force or energy from it. Those require a physical model, and there is none being demonstrated here.

---

I tried my best to put my thoughts into words here, I do apologize if I missed the mark in any way.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Snip

Ok.
Won't bother to argue about this one further. Since it's nothing burger of a calc. Other Maus calcs are much more important

 

[StrymULTRA]

Charmander getting packed dawg.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Charmander getting packed dawg.

By who gng ✌

 

[Qurbonboev]

By who gng ✌

Btw, you had whole "DW are small from outside perspective, so Titans aren't 7-B".
Did you changed mind after I informed you that they aren't small from outside perspective?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Btw, you had whole "DW are small from outside perspective, so Titans aren't 7-B".
Did you changed mind after I informed you that they aren't small from outside perspective?

I do not recall it.

I believe the Titans shouldn't scale to 7-B for other reasons.

 

[Qurbonboev]

I do not recall it.

You were saying this here for example.

I believe the Titans shouldn't scale to 7-B for other reasons.

And they are?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You were saying this here for example.

Oh yeah, I still believe that's a fair reading. From outside a particular DW dimension, it's scale is not city-sized and can fit in a room. Is that not correct?

And they are?

Let's scale up the titan.

Say he's the size of a universe. Should the attacks that throw out a galaxy be indexed as Universe level attacks, or as Galaxy level attacks? And if they throw a universe level attack, it would be like throwing their entire selves. I believe the latter is a better interpretation.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Oh yeah, I still believe that's a fair reading. From outside a particular DW dimension, it's scale is not city-sized and can fit in a room. Is that not correct?

To put my questioning in perspective. Why is the Titan not the size of an entire city? Obviously because the dimension inside of it is reduced by the same aspect that makes the cybercity fit in a computer room. So I don't think scaling the Titan to the entire size of its dimension makes much sense. Is my concern at least grounded in some logic?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Say he's the size of a universe. Should the attacks that throw out a galaxy be indexed as Universe level attacks, or as Galaxy level attacks? And if they throw a universe level attack, it would be like throwing their entire selves. I believe the latter is a better interpretation.

Holy false equivalence lol. We're not fighting inside a Titan, but against one from the outside.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Holy false equivalence lol. We're not fighting inside a Titan, but against one from the outside.

Well, holy strawman, that's not what I claimed, and this is not what my argument presents in the slightest, Strym.

Literally the same situation as Chapter 4, we're fighting outside the Titan, but the inside of it is the size of a universe. Now, if that Titan throws out an attack that is its equivalent of a galaxy, would that attack be classified as a universe level attack, or as a galaxy level attack?

Being inside or outside doesn't matter, we're talking about proportions of energy.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Literally the same situation as Chapter 4, we're fighting outside the Titan, but the inside of it is the size of a universe. Now, if that Titan throws out an attack that is its equivalent of a galaxy, would that attack be classified as a universe level attack, or as a galaxy level attack?

We do know the Titan only has a measly 40 ATK and the Fun Gang can kill the Spawns with their 200 DEF Ig

 

[GodlyCharmander]

We do know the Titan only has a measly 40 ATK and the Fun Gang can kill the Spawns with their 200 DEF Ig

YEP. The spawns are obviously not proportional to the whole darkness containing the whole city, so this makes for a compelling argument that the Titan's attacks shouldn't scale to his entire concept of being.

 

[Randomuser3412]

I don't get how those correlate, no matter the merit of the argument otherwise. The Titan Spawns aren't Dark Fountains or Dark Worlds, they're just darkness, or "A shard of fear"

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I don't get how those correlate, no matter the merit of the argument otherwise. The Titan Spawns aren't Dark Fountains or Dark Worlds, they're just darkness, or "A shard of fear"

Well, that is the point, they are a miniscule fraction of darkness, and yet they outstat the Titan's ATK. Doesn't make sense, the Titan's entire collective darkness is what scales to 7-B

 

[Qurbonboev]

From outside a particular DW dimension, it's scale is not city-sized and can fit in a room. Is that not correct?

From outside perspective it's internal volume is city sized and external volume is building sized.
I am pretty sure site judges pocket realms by its internal volume not external volume. Otherwise you would have creating DW as nore impressive than feat of Molecule Man, who has Omniverse inside box, cus boxes are smaller than buildings, which is obviously bullshit

 

[GodlyCharmander]

From outside perspective it's internal volume is city sized and external volume is building sized.
I am pretty sure site judges pocket realms by its internal volume not external volume. Otherwise you would have creating DW as nore impressive than feat of Molecule Man, who has Omniverse inside box, cus boxes are smaller than buildings, which is obviously bullshit

Yeah, but we're experiencing the external volume while fighting the Titan, no?

 

[Randomuser3412]

I don't think Toby thought the stats through very much. The Titan one shots the Titan Spawn lol

Well, that is the point, they are a miniscule fraction of darkness, and yet they outstat the Titan's ATK. Doesn't make sense, the Titan's entire collective darkness is what scales to 7-B

Uhhh sure ok

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I don't think Toby thought the stats through very much.

We're not going the "Toby is incompetent about his literal passion project" route on this one, sorry. Not engaging with that.

The Titan one shots the Titan Spawn lol

Assuming they're destroyed and not assimilated into the mass of darkness.

 

[Randomuser3412]

We're not going the "Toby is incompetent about his literal passion project" route on this one, sorry. Not engaging with that.

What does it being a passion project have to do with him not messing the stats up? You can mess up anything anywhere

Assuming they're destroyed and not assimilated into the mass of darkness.

Surely there would have been some indication of that

 

[GodlyCharmander]

What does it being a passion project have to do with him not messing the stats up? You can mess up anything anywhere

The fact each thing is carefully planned YEARS before release? What you're saying he messed up is something easily detectable, and simplistic in nature.

Surely there would have been some indication of that

The same applies for destruction. Neutral ground.

 

[Randomuser3412]

The fact each thing is carefully planned YEARS before release? What you're saying he messed up is something easily detectable, and simplistic in nature.

Yeah, maybe he did

The same applies for destruction. Neutral ground.

Occam's razor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[StrymULTRA]

"We're taking stats as accurate because the authors write them" we absolutely do dismiss them if they're contradicting to on-screen showings, feats > statements after all.

We already do not use Jojo Stands stats for a reason because they're made up nonsense for 90% of the time.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Yeah, but we're experiencing the external volume while fighting the Titan, no?

What does "experiencing the external volume" even mean?
We are fighting Titan, who draws power from fountain, which can make city sized DW.

Now, if that Titan throws out an attack that is its equivalent of a galaxy, would that attack be classified as a universe level attack, or as a galaxy level attack?

As matter of fact if universal sized char throws galaxy we scale this attack AP not to galaxy size, but to Universal sized char AP.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Yeah, maybe he did

I'll indulge you. What's the mistake, then? Did he type an extra zero?

Occam's razor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Do you think it favors you? List out the assumptions on both sides.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

"We're taking stats as accurate because the authors write them" we absolutely do dismiss them if they're contradicting to on-screen showings, feats > statements after all.

Oh hey, can you show me the feat the stats are contradicting again? Because the Titan scaling to the 7-B rating is not a defined canonical feat, it's a conclusion made from a reasonable assumption.

You're making the same mistake you made in the sound and electricity thread.

We already do not use Jojo Stands stats for a reason because they're made up nonsense for 90% of the time.

Undertale is not JoJo

 

[Randomuser3412]

I'll indulge you. What's the mistake, then? Did he type an extra zero?

He made the stats contradict what's shown

Do you think it favors you? List out the assumptions on both sides.

Your side assumes the Titan Spawn can be absorbed by the Titan's attacks, which is an unfounded assumption. My side assumes they can be destroyed, which... they can