Las Noches Size Downgrade

[Saqphire]

Ah yeah, those ones in the background here definitely have different diameters that can't be due to perspective.

That's not the same building dawg. That's the building that Renji collapsed from the inside out in chapter 292 which was way before the fight with Ulquiorra started and this building was INSIDE Las Noches here as we can see with the fake sky.

Las Noches itself has a very distinct shape that Kubo is CONSISTENTLY drawing to be distinct from other buildings, so idk why people keep pushing this narrative that ”Kubo can’t draw for scale or to distinguish buildings” when we see that he can on MULTIPLE occasions, both here and in the OP.

Ichimonji’s assertion that the pillars are inconsistent from the Lanza panels don’t actually show how they are inconsistent, he’s just saying that without justifying it while ignoring that Ghost already mentioned how all the panels line up in terms of consistency AND statements here, so the fact that Ichimonji, a supporter of Bleach and a knowledgeable member from the CRTs here, would mistake both buildings is extremely suspect. Even a casual reader would know these aren’t the same buildings

 

[Hellscream]

the pillar in the "databook" is one of the pillars inside that grimmjow destroyed, throw your little nitpicky databook statement, that applies only to that set of pillars into the garbage bin.

And ichigo's fight with grimmjow also happened "inside" las noches.

Just stop atp



This is the scene in which panterra destroys the pillar with his elbow spike, used as reference for size.

 

[Agnaa]

Nel is treated as a kid throwing a tantrum in this scene. You have to assume she is completely accurate in her assessment. You have to assume no breaks, you have to assume walking speed etc. Nothing about this statement is convincing to me.

I especially don't see why it would be more important than all the evidence provided to the contrary.

The side of downgrade has such a massive proponderence of evidence. It's Twitter levels of agenda to try to cling to this one throwaway statement. Surely we're better than that.

I'm fine with assuming breaks, or a lower walking speed, but those wouldn't change it as significantly as this thread aims to.

That's not the same building dawg. That's the building that Renji collapsed from the inside out in chapter 292 which was way before the fight with Ulquiorra started and this building was INSIDE Las Noches here as we can see with the fake sky.

Las Noches itself has a very distinct shape that Kubo is CONSISTENTLY drawing to be distinct from other buildings, so idk why people keep pushing this narrative that ”Kubo can’t draw for scale or to distinguish buildings” when we see that he can on MULTIPLE occasions, both here and in the OP.

Ichimonji’s assertion that the pillars are inconsistent from the Lanza panels don’t actually show how they are inconsistent, he’s just saying that without justifying it while ignoring that Ghost already mentioned how all the panels line up in terms of consistency AND statements here, so the fact that Ichimonji, a supporter of Bleach and a knowledgeable member from the CRTs here, would mistake both buildings is extremely suspect. Even a casual reader would know these aren’t the same buildings

Oof yeah that does sound pretty damning.

 

[Snakes]

I'm fine with assuming breaks, or a lower walking speed, but those wouldn't change it as significantly as this thread aims to.

Oof yeah that does sound pretty damning.

I don't think stacking assumptions is a good way to get a consistent answer. Especially if we can use consistent visual depictions.

 

[Hellscream]

I'm fine with assuming breaks, or a lower walking speed, but those wouldn't change it as significantly as this thread aims to.

Oof yeah that does sound pretty damning.

All of these pillars shown, are within las noches itself, along with the "databook" scan, and the larger ones that ichimonji posted, the larger ones, are seen from the inside, and the ones ontop of las noches that are shown from the outside.


All of these are pillars inside, with varying sizes

Another inconsistency is, that Las noches from the outside had massive pillars, and seemingly after we get another zoom out, they're gone in a later scene where Ulquiorra launched his Lanza Del Relampago.



All these people talking about Nel's statement not to be taken serious, it's up to you to provide arguments as to why the statement is invalid.
Considering Ichigo's speed, and time it took to travel, while running, makes it absolutely illogical for las noches to be 5km.
No matter how you attempt to turn, twist and pull a 3 day walk statement is clear cut, and completely contradict the visuals.

Size inconsistencies are not uncommon in bleach, and are dealth with in the Soul King's palace, Las Noches, and Seireitei.

 

[Kaydee1648]

All these people talking about Nel's statement not to be taken serious, it's up to you to provide arguments as to why the statement is invalid.

No they don’t?

A character CAN be upgraded by word of mouth alone. You just have to double check to see by how much, as well as:

• If the source of the statement is reliable?
• If the statement conflicts with the story or feats of the character?
• If the statement is only valid in the context of its setting, or if it holds up in comparison with other settings?

You’re the one with the positive claim, thus, you have to prove the source of information is credible or valid. No one has to prove why nel’s statement is invalid; they just reject the claim that suggests the opposite.

 

[Snakes]

All of these pillars shown, are within las noches itself, along with the "databook" scan, and the larger ones that ichimonji posted, the larger ones, are seen from the inside, and the ones ontop of las noches that are shown from the outside.


All of these are pillars inside, with varying sizes

Another inconsistency is, that Las noches from the outside had massive pillars, and seemingly after we get another zoom out, they're gone in a later scene where Ulquiorra launched his Lanza Del Relampago.



All these people talking about Nel's statement not to be taken serious, it's up to you to provide arguments as to why the statement is invalid.
Considering Ichigo's speed, and time it took to travel, while running, makes it absolutely illogical for las noches to be 5km.
No matter how you attempt to turn, twist and pull a 3 day walk statement is clear cut, and completely contradict the visuals.

Size inconsistencies are not uncommon in bleach, and are dealth with in the Soul King's palace, Las Noches, and Seireitei.

Arguments against Nels statement are all over this thread. This burden has already been met. You're essentially arguing it's convenient to use the statement. Which is completely irrelevant. Contradicting evidence as well as any level of scrutiny are enough to dismiss this. I see no reason to keep going in circles about it, just because you can't accept it.

You're on the positive in the whole pillar debical so go ahead and prove it. If you're correct we can change the calculation.

 

[Hellscream]

No they don’t?

You’re the one with the positive claim, thus, you have to prove the source of information is credible or valid. No one has to prove why nel’s statement is invalid; they just reject the claim that suggests the opposite.

Yes they do Lmao, it's a statement that clearly gives an interpretation as to how large las noches is, it's not a "1 hour walk" it's a 3 day walk, which ichigo also took serious, and reaffirmed that they don't have the time to walk for 3 days to the entrance.

She is essentially a guide at that point for ichigo, so you either provide evidence, as to why the guide is wrong, or you accept her statement as valid, or show inconsistencies in her being wrong about hueco mundo / las noches.

 

[Snakes]

Yes they do Lmao, it's a statement that clearly gives an interpretation as to how large las noches is, it's not a "1 hour walk" it's a 3 day walk, which ichigo also took serious, and readfirmed that they don't have the time to walk for 3 days to the entrance.

She is essentially a guide at that point for ichigo, so you either provide evidence, as to why the guide is wrong, or you accept her statement as valid, or show inconsistencies in her being wrong about hueco mundo / las noches.

We are in agreement about how this should be argued. The fact that Nel says that is evidence. We don't need evidence for our evidence. Otherwise no statements could be ever be used and you end up in an infinte regress.

That being said evidence and reasoning against it certainly exists.

 

[Saqphire]

The concept of burden of proof is just lost on people…

Even people (including myself) who agrees that Nel’s statement is valid, don’t need to agree that it means the size of Las Noches is what the current calc is saying which has already been explained as to why on the thread.

Those notions are mutually exclusive

 

[SharkBook01]

Nel is extremely credible by the way. She gives the gang information about Heuco Mundo the whole arc and literally isn't wrong a single time.

• Nel informing Ichigo of the Numeros type Arrancar and their capabilities.

• Nel telling Ichigo about Runuganga.
• Nel telling Ichigo about Runuganga's weakness.
• Telling Ichigo the size of Las Noches and the gates of Las Noches.
• Nel knowing who Grimmjow is and that he is the 6th Espada.

 

[KillerNerd007]

Hello nerds, hope you all been physically and mentally healthy, today's thread proposal is to downgrade the crazily inflated size of Las Noches to a much more consistent one

I have compiled all arguments and scans in a blog for easy viewing right here

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Ghostimuscrime/Las_Noches_Size_Downgrade

That sums up all my thoughts regarding this, one thing I'd add is that this proposal would also mean the following calcs would have to get revised after the size change is approved

Spoiler

• Cero is an order of magnitude lower than Cero Oscuras - 6.508 Teratons, likely 200 Teratons (Small Country level+, likely Large Country level)
• Gran Rey Cero - 16.65 Teratons, up to 2.00 Petatons (Country level, up to Continent level)
• Ulquiorra’s Cero Oscuras - 65.08 Teratons, likely 2.00 Petatons (Country level+, likely Continent level)
• Lanza del Relampago - 258.549 Petatons (Multi-Continent level)
• Lanza del Relampago - Mach 1467.5 (Massively Hypersonic+)

With all that being said, let us discuss!

Agree : M3X_2.0, Armorchompy, Floxy178, Planck69, Agna (Disagrees with most reasons but agrees overall)​

Disagree :​

Neutral :

Put in disagree. These arguments are bad and not worth looking for an update.

I don't feel like elaborating because I don't think I can add anything anybody from like 5 to 10 years ago hasn't already said.

 

[Snakes]

Nel is extremely credible by the way. She gives the gang information about Heuco Mundo the whole arc and literally isn't wrong a single time.

Let's say we have a trend of soul reapers using swords in combat. If a new character is introduced. We still have to prove they abide by this trend. As soul reapers can also fight without swords.

Just establishing a trend is not enough. You still have to see if Nel is correct in this instance.

Otherwise we could say well Damage has not been wrong before. Let's assume he is always correct and make every change he wants. See the problem?

 

[SacredDao]

The burden of proof lies on others. It has already been established nel is reliable in previously accepted CRT.

Bleach: Las Noches' Size 2.0

In a previous CRT we decided to use statements instead of referring to pixel scaling for Bleach given the inconsistency discovered in the pixel scaling. No two panels of an aerial view of things were similar nor consistent. However, statements were consistent at least. We have an accepted calc...

vsbattles.com

 

[KillerNerd007]

Let's say we have a trend of soul reapers using swords in combat. If a new character is introduced. We still have to prove they abide by this trend. As soul reapers can also fight without swords.

Just establishing a trend is not enough. You still have to see if Nel is correct in this instance.

Otherwise we could say well Damage has not been wrong before. Let's assume he is always correct and make every change he wants. See the problem?

Except Nelliel by this point in the story is the information exposition for some of the characters and guide in some parts. Why would we assume she is wrong only for this one with no proof whatsoever?

 

[KillerNerd007]

The burden of proof lies on others. It has already been established nel is reliable in previously accepted CRT.

Bleach: Las Noches' Size 2.0

In a previous CRT we decided to use statements instead of referring to pixel scaling for Bleach given the inconsistency discovered in the pixel scaling. No two panels of an aerial view of things were similar nor consistent. However, statements were consistent at least. We have an accepted calc...

vsbattles.com

Exactly, that's why I don't think this is worth looking. Just move on already.

 

[Slacjow]

That ridiculous size shouldn't have been accepted in the first place.
The excuse of "inconsistent art" is just tiresome. Like, what do you mean inconsistent when there's not even a single proper portrayal of LN for the size that people pretend it to be.

 

[Snakes]

Except Nelliel by this point in the story is the information exposition for some of the characters and guide in some parts. Why would we assume she is wrong only for this one with no proof whatsoever?

What you're responding to explains why riding a trend doesn't work. It also isn't without evidence. You clearly haven't read the thread. I suggest you do so or go back 10 years and talk there. Have a great day.

 

[Snakes]

The burden of proof lies on others. It has already been established nel is reliable in previously accepted CRT.

Bleach: Las Noches' Size 2.0

In a previous CRT we decided to use statements instead of referring to pixel scaling for Bleach given the inconsistency discovered in the pixel scaling. No two panels of an aerial view of things were similar nor consistent. However, statements were consistent at least. We have an accepted calc...

vsbattles.com

Can we start deleting these posts? They all come in here saying Nel is reliable. And that the opposite needs to be proven. Which was already done yesterday.

 

[Hellscream]

Can we start deleting these posts? They all come in here saying Nel is reliable. And that the opposite needs to be proven. Which was already done yesterday.

(it wasn't proven, you handwaved the statement to the side by calling her a "child")

 

[Snakes]

(it wasn't proven, you handwaved the statement to the side by calling her a "child")

This is one argument out of atleast ten. Nice strawman lad

 

[KillerNerd007]

What you're responding to explains why riding a trend doesn't work. It also isn't without evidence. You clearly haven't read the thread. I suggest you do so or go back 10 years and talk there. Have a great day.

Its called pattern recognition and you are yet to provide a reason as to why we can't trust Nel for this thing. Unless you can give a valid reason (and I do mean show something that is flat out wrong, and not something she doesn't know, btw this isn't me stating an argument its just me asking you to provide something specific that can MAYBE validate your argument), then we have no reason to distrust Nel for this one specific instant.

We really pulling this argument "I got no counter. Just gonna say my opponent didn't read."

 

[KillerNerd007]

Can we start deleting these posts? They all come in here saying Nel is reliable. And that the opposite needs to be proven. Which was already done yesterday.

I might as well start counting the number of obstructions done. Like obstruction of justice type shit.

 

[KillerNerd007]

Kubo: Hm, I'm establishing this new fascinating world in the story, and I have this character who is gonna provide information... nah they ain't gonna be truthful for this one thing lol.

 

[KillerNerd007]

Anyway, gonna go outside and prefer not to come back to this. If anyone has a question (don't) feel free to ask me. I will reply at my pace.

 

[SharkBook01]

also it's literally accepted on the Bleach page to take statements over visuals.

So by Kubo's own word, backgrounds don't matter much, and it's character interactions that matter. Furthermore, they only work to show relative locations, or where a character is in relation to said location. This means statements >>> visuals, through Kubo's philosophy. Taking visuals over statements is a stance that directly goes against Kubo's storytelling style, and you'd be deliberately trying to not participate in his story how he wants it. Hence, we should default to the highly consistent statements, which are shown below in the true size section.

 

[Snakes]

Its called pattern recognition and you are yet to provide a reason as to why we can't trust Nel for this thing. Unless you can give a valid reason (and I do mean show something that is flat out wrong, and not something she doesn't know, btw this isn't me stating an argument its just me asking you to provide something specific that can MAYBE validate your argument), then we have no reason to distrust Nel for this one specific instant.

We really pulling this argument "I got no counter. Just gonna say my opponent didn't read."

A pattern doesn't mean every instance will be part of said pattern as explained. Thus her being correct before or after. Doesn't necessitate her being correct in this instance.

With that out of the way the burden becomes proving that she was incorrect. For this many arguments have been provided. Coming in on tab three claiming this burden has not been met. Simply means you didn't actually read. If you wanna go back and argue feel free to do so. But calling for argumentation that has already been made. Is simply stupid.

 

[Snakes]

I might as well start counting the number of obstructions done. Like obstruction of justice type shit.

Not wanting the thread to be flooded with repeat statements and keeping people on topic. Is not obstruction of justice lol.

 

[Hellscream]

A pattern doesn't mean every instance will be part of said pattern as explained. Thus her being correct before or after. Doesn't necessitate her being correct in this instance.

With that out of the way the burden becomes proving that she was incorrect. For this many arguments have been provided. Coming in on tab three claiming this burden has not been met. Simply means you didn't actually read. If you wanna go back and argue feel free to do so. But calling for argumentation that has already been made. Is simply stupid.

A pattern alone doesn’t guarantee correctness in every single instance, it does however establish a reliability baseline. Nel is consistently used as an informational guide (as seen above) throughout Hueco Mundo and repeatedly provides accurate explanations about the environment, enemies, and structure of Las Noches

Because of that, her statements carry evidence based weight by default unless contradicted (they have not been contradicted)

if Nel is supposedly incorrect in this specific instance, then the burden is to provide direct contradiction, contextual impossibility, or narrative reason to distrust her statement.

Since your claim is that Nel is incorrect in this specific instance, then the burden is to provide direct contradiction, or narrative reason to distrust / invalidate her statement. not simply to dismiss her reliability pattern.

 

[KillerNerd007]

A pattern doesn't mean every instance will be part of said pattern as explained. Thus her being correct before or after. Doesn't necessitate her being correct in this instance.

With that out of the way the burden becomes proving that she was incorrect. For this many arguments have been provided. Coming in on tab three claiming this burden has not been met. Simply means you didn't actually read. If you wanna go back and argue feel free to do so. But calling for argumentation that has already been made. Is simply stupid.

So your argument is basically dismissing consistencies, not provide proof she could be wrong, and just assume she is wrong for no reason. Am I correct or do you have something worth talking about? Because if we can't reliably use the times she is correct before and after, and nothing contradicts her statement (beyond out of scale visuals that is a trend in Bleach, so then we have to go by what we do know is consistent within the story, such as large towers that remain out of view for example), then how can I prove to you she is correct for this instant? You are basically saying no amount of evidence can convince you otherwise.

Yeah the burden wasn't met and telling me to go back and read tells me that you don't in fact have proof. Because if you did you would have just said it rather than having me go on a wild goose chase. Because also what if I did read it? What would you say next? I read it in French?

 

[Snakes]

A pattern alone doesn’t guarantee correctness in every single instance, it does however establish a reliability baseline. Nel is consistently used as an informational guide throughout Hueco Mundo and repeatedly provides accurate explanations about the environment, enemies, and structure of Las Noches

Because of that, her statements carry evidence based weight by default unless contradicted (they have not been contradicted)

if Nel is supposedly incorrect in this specific instance, then the burden is to provide direct contradiction, contextual impossibility, or narrative reason to distrust her statement.

Since your claim is that Nel is incorrect in this specific instance, then the burden is to provide direct contradiction, or narrative reason to distrust / invalidate her statement. not simply to dismiss her reliability pattern.

Yes we are in agreement this is exactly what I have been saying. And for said counter argumentation you can read the thread. It's there

 

[KillerNerd007]

Not wanting the thread to be flooded with repeat statements and keeping people on topic. Is not obstruction of justice lol.

It is technically speaking if you could think about it. If this was an actual criminal case, you can go to jail for 90 days to 30 years in Federal Prison lol. Deleting comments meant to push for counter arguments would count as that. But why are you focused on me making an off handed comment?

 

[Snakes]

So your argument is basically dismissing consistencies, not provide proof she could be wrong, and just assume she is wrong for no reason. Am I correct or do you have something worth talking about? Because if we can't reliably use the times she is correct before and after, and nothing contradicts her statement (beyond out of scale visuals that is a trend in Bleach, so then we have to go by what we do know is consistent within the story, such as large towers that remain out of view for example), then how can I prove to you she is correct for this instant? You are basically saying no amount of evidence can convince you otherwise.

Yeah the burden wasn't met and telling me to go back and read tells me that you don't in fact have proof. Because if you did you would have just said it rather than having me go on a wild goose chase. Because also what if I did read it? What would you say next? I read it in French?

Why are you being this dense? I already said counter arguments against the statement have to be made for it to be countered. The trend argument is seperate and adresses why we shouldn't accept it blindly. Just because Nel is often correct.

I'm not obligated to give you a summary of what the arguments in this thread are. Read it yourself and adress them if you wish. Don't act like they don't exist or tell me I disagree for no reason.

You're just being insanely dishonest for no reason. If you're not going to engage with the thread just go do something else and stop wasting everyone's time.

 

[Snakes]

It is technically speaking if you could think about it. If this was an actual criminal case, you can go to jail for 90 days to 30 years in Federal Prison lol. Deleting comments meant to push for counter arguments would count as that. But why are you focused on me making an off handed comment?

I'm just gonna let this go for everyone's sake

 

[Hellscream]

Why are you being this dense? I already said counter arguments against the statement have to be made for it to be countered. The trend argument is seperate and adresses why we shouldn't accept it blindly. Just because Nel is often correct.

I'm not obligated to give you a summary of what the arguments in this thread are. Read it yourself and adress them if you wish. Don't act like they don't exist or tell me I disagree for no reason.

You're just being insanely dishonest for no reason. If you're not going to engage with the thread just go do something else and stop wasting everyone's time.

Not a single valid counterargument has been made, the databook scan of the pillar has been addressed, i've also addressed inconsistencies of the depiction of las noches itself. The atmosphere shit is not even worth addressing.

Stop cluttering the thread with nonsensical comments.

 

[Snakes]

Not a single valid counterargument has been made, the databook scan of the pillar has been addressed, i've also addressed inconsistencies of the depiction of las noches itself. The atmosphere shit is not even worth addressing.

Stop cluttering the thread with nonsensical comments.

Your personal incredulity is not refutation pal. Anyway we can let other people speak now.

 

[KillerNerd007]

Why are you being this dense? I already said counter arguments against the statement have to be made for it to be countered. The trend argument is seperate and adresses why we shouldn't accept it blindly. Just because Nel is often correct.

I'm not obligated to give you a summary of what the arguments in this thread are. Read it yourself and adress them if you wish. Don't act like they don't exist or tell me I disagree for no reason.

You're just being insanely dishonest for no reason. If you're not going to engage with the thread just go do something else and stop wasting everyone's time.

I am asking you to provide your counter argument that you say is already posted? Its not because I am lazy, its only because I have to go outside. If you did have one, just summarize it or bring it over, I shouldn't have to waste time going around searching for your argument. Not accepting a statement blindly is one thing, but you are legit ignoring a concrete statement from a reliable character.

I'm just asking you to give me your best argument and defend it. If its so extremely strong, just bring it over.

So I'm the dishonest one for asking you to provide an argument? Btw, if people start deleting my comment, y'all only prove me correct.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Can both sides stop accusing each other of wasting peoples time or clogging the thread cuz it goes both ways here.

 

[Damage3245]

also it's literally accepted on the Bleach page to take statements over visuals.

Then we can just remove that line.

 

[Ecronicron]

I disagree with the last bit I don't think Kubo was considering how the atmosphere behaves in his battle shonen manga about a kid with a large kitchen knife

For what it's worth I agree with the argument overall as this convinced me. There is simply too much evidence to consider the pillars being that wide. Certainly enough to discard a throwaway statement.