Symbol of Fear vs Final Bastion of Reason (Tomura Shigaraki vs Julius Novachrono) [5-15-7]

[Machmatej]

Can it really discern to this extent, especially unconventional attacks? it's not full on precog after all

Absolutely. And although it's not full precognition, it IS just precognition with extra steps. it's enhanced extrasensory perception that reads threat levels and alerts you of ill-intent. combining it with analytical prediction and information analysis is what tells you the best course of action. and in Shigaraki's case, it's Search doing a lot of heavy lifting by also alerting him of openings, weaknesses and positions by tracking the soul + his own instinct being driven by Danger Sense without him needing to think.

Isn't search doing this here? and that combined with some feeling he has tells him he can't take it

Nope. Izuku was just taking advantage of the fact that Search tracks the very soul, and not the body. So, he applied one of the vestiges to a black whip and fired it at Shigaraki through a Smokescreen, and Search picked that up instead of Izuku himself. That "feeling" he has is something he only gained after stealing Danger Sense, and the only time his body moves on his own is when it starts tweaking out.

Isn't that because of his will itself rejecting the transfer so his body subconsciously did that?

Yes and no. His body instinctively started moving to protect itself as soon as it picked up on Izuku's hostility, without Shigaraki himself knowing why. Izuku broke through his flesh armor, and Shigaraki only learned what Izuku's trick was AFTER the OFA transfer happened, and ejected him from his soul world. The ejection part IS because of willpower, but Shigaraki protecting himself without thinking is the work of his powers, not his will. He didn't know what was happening then.

it wouldn't be quite the same as Julius trying to incap him with Chrono Stasis

Assuming you are right and this can indeed warn him of damage, would this even work against Chrono Stasis which don't do damage and simply seal you in time? That's what he mainly uses at first when fighting people, his erasure was used immediatly against the eyes of the midnight sun goons because he thought that was the best option there as it would cause unnecessary trouble to just let them alive due to it being more difficult to restrain them with more numbers. In a fight like this, he would probably use them first before time accelerating as it would be easier to do so.

well, Danger Sense was able to pick up on and warn him about Izuku's Black Chains, which were completely non-lethal and only had the purpose of restraining him.

Danger Sense was also picking up Low Gear used on Smokescreen, and Black Whip simply being unleashed (not even as an attack, but just letting it hang), which was a completely non-lethal combo. But since it had hostility behind it, Danger Sense started tweaking out without Shigaraki knowing what was happening, so he tracked Izuku with Search and cut off his own arm to prevent the attack from landing, just in case (way before Izuku was close enough to hit him).

So Danger Sense can also pick up non-lethal things and incapacitation attempts as long as they're laced with hostility/ill-intent. And if something is a sure win against him, as long as it's hostile, Danger Sense would pick it up and his body would instinctively move to protect itself no matter the cost. So yes, I do think it will register Chrono Stasis as a threat, and try to save him from it.

trying to block time acceleration also won't help

and trust me, he would know this too. If the attack is an insta-kill, then it would probably instinctively trigger a quirk combo speed increase to dodge it and/or blitz him in retaliation. Or maybe he would just try to clash with it via Impure Beam. Whatever works.

I suppose, having to go through so much thoughts tho, when Julius can start spamming his moves - can still be lethal

Spamming attacks would just make Shigaraki way more likely to try to blitz him to finish the fight quickly.

yes he should be able to sense any changes within his mana zone, like someone moving through it, as it allows to read his opponent's next moves, and it would be combined with time magic too

yes it can be, especially with mana zone

that's interesting. i'm assuming it isn't his opening move, but if it comes to that, I guess Shigaraki would have to do what Patry did and just start zooming across the battlefield while spamming ranged attacks to prevent getting incapacitated.

Julius aint a close range fighter so it's nothing bad, he can clean out both arms and dust clouds with time acceleration, or if worst comes to worst can reverse time, to the point where decay wasnt spread/shigaraki didnt grew out his hands/shigaraki didnt evolve (and before you ask, Julius can regulate the range of that, he doesn't have to cast it on thousands of kilometers of range, because that would exhaust him greatly)

All of that is still extra movement that could create an opening, and an extra spell that would still be draining to some degree, all to prevent/counter something Shigaraki just does passively.

Julius isn't gonna be punching, and trying to tank his attack would be fatal, same as blocking most of the times (also you can't just block chrono stasis due to mana zone)

I know that. My argument wasn't that he's gonna start throwing hands and boxing. It was to say getting close to Shigaraki, or Shigaraki getting close to him would mean that Shigaraki could use any normal attack to finish him off due to the stats difference. If he finds/makes an opening ofc

It works by reading the flow of the mana in the future, not specifically the person's mana he's fighting, so it should work. Even if it was, wouldn't the regular verse equal apply here, like when people are assumed to have a bit of CE for domain sure hits to work? After all, all living beings have mana in BC (minus you know who OK)

I'm pretty sure JJK is the only verse that does that. Usually energy systems get equalized with other energy systems and you don't just give every character a new power system. I could be wrong though.

I mean no, reading the physical strikes of your opponents is not nearly the same as predicting teleportation, insta time spells, magical beams that can be danmaku'd etc, that would all require more and better feats for his an. prediction

Is teleportation, no movement is happening

Search is just tracking the soul's position. He doesn't need to track the actual movement, he'll just sense him disappearing and re-appearing in a different spot. Danger Sense would make it even easier, as it would sense hostility coming from a completely different spot.

As you said it's worth mentioning, even if it draws out Julius can use Chrono Anastasis too

wouldn't that tax his stamina?

I mean, Julius can also tp and time stop, which would prevent Shiggy from doing either. And it also depends if his senses can work faster than Julius's blast up close reaches him

Shigaraki's senses should be significantly faster than his own speed, and he has an early warning of the blast being planned, so yes I would say he's fast enough.

hands growing out isnt exactly instant

i was referring to things like rivet stab (which are probably even a blitz over his normal speed) and radio waves and impure beams.

Doesnt stuff like air canons usually charge up for a sec?

Air Cannons only take charge up time when combined with things like Heavy Payload to amp them. But he wouldn't really need to amp them considering the stat difference.

Overall, I think it honestly could go either way but I'm leaning towards voting Shigaraki. Danger Sense prevents all of the "teleports behind you" bs and would just drive him towards a quirk combo blitz. Julius also seems to struggle with catching people moving at a comparable speed to his own with Chrono Stasis, so all of Shigaraki's passive speed amps and quirk combos would prevent him from getting insta-killed even in a mana zone, and it's only a matter of time before he catches Julius off-guard and goes on to conquer the Clover Kingdom or something.

 

[Machmatej]

also, what would happen if Julius' grimoire gets destroyed? would he lose access to his spells? if the thing is just floating in the air, i don't think Julius can do much about an impure beam vaporizing it

 

[Kachon123]

Julius FRA

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

shiggy fra

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

also, what would happen if Julius' grimoire gets destroyed? would he lose access to his spells? if the thing is just floating in the air, i don't think Julius can do much about an impure beam vaporizing it

You need to interact with Mana to even try to do that and Patry did not even know where his Grimoire is when elves have better senses including mana sensing that humans

I still vote incon, this is Patry vs Julius but Julius is going all out and Patry is competent, Julius got hit once in that fight(ignoring the end) and that is because Patry grew in speed passively, Tomura needs to evolve and that is him reacting to things, his page also says he grew faster for evolving against gearshift (the scan is missing)

If we count that Shiggy still gets faster for some reason, Julius also gets faster with precog

Also, no one said that Julius can also basically redirect all of shigaraki range attacks to him, which would alert his danger sense as well because the attacks reflected get stronger, if Julius is seeing with precog that somehow Shigaraki is always anticipating his attacks, he could bait him

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

incon fra

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

The count for what I was able to read is 2 votes for Julius, 1 or 2 votes for Shigaraki, 4 incons

 

[MyriadOfHeartsSpiritualFlowerGarden]

Shiggy fra

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

incon FRA

 

[Lokolokurah]

Incon fra

 

[Shadowslash125]

incon fra

 

[Mommyleona]

Vote count has been updated

 

[Rodriiogo]

Alright, I think I understand enough now (Thanks Mach for clarifying). That said, I do think Danger Sense should be clarified better on the page lol.
First tho, I want to address the "inconclusive" conclusion, because right now it doesn’t really make sense to me despite everyone voting. It seems to mostly come from the conclusion in this message, I want to first point out that while Julius can use the same time stop spell, the version he uses has a much smaller range and is not a "large AoE" most of the time. The large AoE version is Lucius' with Asta himself pointing how much bigger in scale it is.
Secondly, and most importantly, I don't even think the fight would realistically reach that inconc "clash". The way the fight is being taken is kinda oversimplifying how the characters actually interact in combat.

From what I can tell, both characters have fairly even win-cons:

• Shigaraki's is that essentially any hit on Julius would end the fight immediately due to the massive 90,000x stat gap (1.12 Petatons VS 12.2 Gigatons).
• Julius’ is similar, as if either Chrono Stasis or a time-accelerating attack lands, Shigaraki is either sealed and dies or is just killed.

So, it comes down to character behavior, especially under standard battle assumptions.
This being the part I wanna highlight:

State of mind: In character, but will attempt to win the battle. Each character will view their opponents as enemies, who they have to assume wish to cause them severe harm such that losing could have any range of dire consequences. The characters will assume their opponents have not been forced into battle. They are assumed to have decided from free will to fight and are not excused by a just cause, difficult times or otherwise exonerating circumstances. Furthermore, the situation is assumed one where the opponents are not protected by social norms or consequences, such as being a civilian protected by law.

In this context, an "in-character" Shigaraki would be extremely aggressive like he was like during the Final War arc. We see that immediately upon being "unleashed", his first action is to try to destroy everything around him using Decay. He would likely do something similar here, either decaying the surroundings right away or lunging forward to try to make direct contact with Julius and decay him. Either way, he will immediately try to attack aggressively.

The reason I don’t think this just becomes "Danger Sense tells him about threat = win" is because of how Julius fights in contrast.

Julius is basically the opposite of Shigaraki in how they fight. He keeps his distance and mainly focuses on defense and analyzing his opponent before even using actual attacks once. Against Patry, for example, he doesn’t attack mostly at all at first, he focuses entirely on defense while looking at the situation while trying to work out the most effective way to end the fight and for openings to seal him, he also uses that chance as well to continuously adapt, anticipating attacks faster and faster.

When Julius uses Chrono Stasis here, he uses it to stop incoming attacks rather than directly targeting their spell to the opponent. So that wouldn't trigger Danger Sense, since there’s no direct hostile intent toward Shigaraki in those moments, so he would not find out about the threat level here (at first) and would simply sense how weak Julius is physically via his Extrasensory Perception (which would actually backfire and just make him not take Julius as serious). So the fight wouldn't be "short" and/or immediate.

Continuing, because of Julius' teleportation and fighting style of maintaining distance, Shigaraki would be forced to also use more ranged attacks. That creates a disadvantage... for him. As Julius can exploit that by stopping and sending those attacks back at higher speed, fast enough to blitz the person who even used the attack as shown with Patry, someone who Julius acknowledges as fast and can dodge his attacks. (Keep in mind he could also store them in his spheres and just send them back later)
Both of them would continue adapting as the fight goes on, Julius by improving his anticipation, and Shigaraki through his body's adaptation and how he adapted to Deku's Gearshift speed.
--

Going off all that tho, I wanna say I think Julius has more of a chance of winning.
Both have the win-con of one shotting the other and it's entirely possible that Shigaraki can win sometimes, the difference in my opinion is in how accessible and feasible each win-con is.

Shigaraki just needs to land a single hit yes, but that’s something Julius can make that WAAAY harder to achieve than the other way around (as in how hard to achieve can Shigaraki make Julius win-con). Between constantly maintaining distance, anticipating faster, and constant teleportation, Julius will be limiting Shigaraki's opportunities as he doesn't need to and won't do direct exchanges, especially not in close combat. He'll observe, analyze, and wait/plan towards a reliable counter/opening, while looking for ways to bait Shigaraki for that.

For Danger Sense, while it could help Shigaraki avoid the regular small Chrono Stasis once Julius starts using them, like how Patry did, by the time he does Julius would already be anticipating much much faster, as those attacks are not something Julius would do in the fight early, so the idea of Shigaraki immediately blitzing after that, especially when Julius would be maintaining distance still is weird to me as an argument for a 100% win-con. It's also important to consider that, in the context of that situation with Patry, Julius wasn’t trying to kill Patry because it was still William's body, he avoided using offensive spells and focused on trying to simply seal him. Against Shigaraki, that "limitation" wouldn’t apply and we know Julius has access to much larger-scale attacks with his time acceleration that were basically impossible to avoid even for faster opponents due to their sheer range, and he wouldn’t hesitate to use offensive abilities here. Him constantly using his offensive attack, such as his bullets as a minor example, all around mana zone's range would matter because that kind of constant attacks could blind Shigaraki of the actual Chrono Stasis attacks that he would be using, which would overwhelm Danger Sense in the same way Deku’s Smokescreen did, by turning it into a constant alarm in his head. Important thing as well is that it's also being ignored how Mana Zone also boosts Julius and his attacks speed, on top of it making him able to summon attacks anywhere within the range of space he controls, even inside attacks or directly on top of his opponent, I'm not sure danger sense would be able to detect/avoid that.
Side note: I wanna note that I'm pretty sure Julius would know about how Shigaraki's danger sense and his other quriks work via his Information Analysis by simply looking at him, so that's another advantage.
Side note 2: I'm fairly certain (unless Decay is also a blitz difference above Shigaraki and that isn't said on the page) decay would not be able to kill Julius even if it hit as he can just use his time manipulation on himself to reverse all the damages as if he never got decay'd.

I'm not sure if I missed something so I will be voting for Julius for now but if someone can explain how Shigaraki's win-cons are more achievable or how the "inconclusive" works better, go ahead.

 

[Mommyleona]

and trust me, he would know this too. If the attack is an insta-kill, then it would probably instinctively trigger a quirk combo speed increase to dodge it and/or blitz him in retaliation. Or maybe he would just try to clash with it via Impure Beam. Whatever works.

his best shot would be trying to dodge, getting up close can be lethal as Julius can spam a wall of chrono stasis in front of himself

Spamming attacks would just make Shigaraki way more likely to try to blitz him to finish the fight quickly.

How much distance can he blitz through? As Julius could anticipate that coming and finish him off before that, or teleport high up and away, or use Chrono Anastasis to prevent Shiggy from activating quirks

that's interesting. i'm assuming it isn't his opening move,

It is, his opening moves, as i said, are either Chrono Stasis or time acceleration, maybe chrono stasis is even more likely

I guess Shigaraki would have to do what Patry did and just start zooming across the battlefield while spamming ranged attacks to prevent getting incapacitated.

that'd be his best bet yes, but unlike with Patry, Julius could start spamming Time Acceleration spheres too which can be much bigger

Search is just tracking the soul's position. He doesn't need to track the actual movement, he'll just sense him disappearing and re-appearing in a different spot.

If he reappears in his line of vision that is
also could he confuse the grimoire with Julius, as grimoires are linked to the user's soul and represent their life

wouldn't that tax his stamina?

It would, but he can restrict it's range so it wouldn't be as bad

Air Cannons only take charge up time when combined with things like Heavy Payload to amp them. But he wouldn't really need to amp them considering the stat difference.

If he gets the stat difference yes, but considering what you say, danger sense would be screaming danger, i'm not so sure he wouldnt try to charge up something deadlier

also, what would happen if Julius' grimoire gets destroyed? would he lose access to his spells? if the thing is just floating in the air, i don't think Julius can do much about an impure beam vaporizing it

If such thing somehow happened I suppose, but on top of what Kazuma said, grimoires are supposed to be indestructible, as i said above they represent the life of the mage and are linked to their soul, here - a grimoire tanking Asta's attack without a single page being damaged. So unless Shiggy tries to use decay on it specifically he shouldn't be able to damage it. And uh ya know, just logically, mages would've been trying to do just that if it was so easy

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Search doesn't require eyesight, it explicitly tracks the target and their weaknesses no matter where they are in relation to the user up to a certain distance.

 

[Mommyleona]

Search doesn't require eyesight, it explicitly tracks the target and their weaknesses no matter where they are in relation to the user up to a certain distance.

How would it be able to track Julius appearing behind Shigaraki via teleportation?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

How would it be able to track Julius appearing behind Shigaraki via teleportation?

Because his soul is still there and that's what it's tracking. Even if Search lost him for just the briefest of moments, Danger Sense gets rid of that problem and lets Shigaraki adapt to that fact after it happens once.

 

[Mommyleona]

Because his soul is still there and that's what it's tracking

So does it allow him to see 360° around himself or?? Because it tracking the soul does not mean he can suddenly see something appear behind himself

Even if Search lost him for just the briefest of moments, Danger Sense gets rid of that problem

I feel like danger sense is being too overestimated, it's clearly not perfect and can be overwhelmed, outplayed, etc.

lets Shigaraki adapt to that fact after it happens once.

Julius suddenly appearing and popping chrono stasis would likely end it there

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So does it allow him to see 360° around himself or?? Because it tracking the soul does not mean he can suddenly see something appear behind himself

Yes, unironically. Going by how Ragdoll described her Quirk she does not need to actually see the target to keep track of them with Search. So long as there's not more than a hundred targets then Search can perfectly track them and their weaknesses simultaneously.

I feel like danger sense is being too overestimated, it's clearly not perfect and can be overwhelmed, outplayed, etc.

Julius suddenly appearing and popping chrono stasis would likely end it there

Danger Sense combined with Shigaraki's busted level of AnaPre, instinctive action and several fold blitz amps that scale to Gearshift which is several different blitz amps stacked on top of each other is not being overestimated in the slightest, it really just is that cracked.

 

[ElJoaki5]

I feel more convinced by the julius args so uhh julius fra i guess

 

[Machmatej]

Alright, I think I understand enough now (Thanks Mach for clarifying). That said, I do think Danger Sense should be clarified better on the page lol.

You're welcome, and I agree.

When Julius uses Chrono Stasis here, he uses it to stop incoming attacks rather than directly targeting their spell to the opponent. So that wouldn't trigger Danger Sense, since there’s no direct hostile intent toward Shigaraki in those moments, so he would not find out about the threat level here (at first) and would simply sense how weak Julius is physically via his Extrasensory Perception (which would actually backfire and just make him not take Julius as serious). So the fight wouldn't be "short" and/or immediate.

I have two problems with this. The first is that most of Shigaraki's range attacks would be too difficult to stop or contain due to their sheer Area of Effect.



At best, I can see Chrono Stasis being able to stop things like his Impure Beams or Rivet Stabs (assuming his future sight can react to a blitz increase, which I honestly doubt), but then comes my second problem. Danger Sense doesn't need hostility to be directed at Shigaraki. A person having the intent to harm Shigaraki in the near future without using an attack that would harm him still triggers it. I mentioned this above in my previous comment, where Danger Sense also detected Low Gear, Smokescreen and Black Whip before Deku even tried to attack him. I also don't know why he wouldn't take Julius seriously after he tests out the waters and sees that the guy keeps teleporting and is making himself essentially untouchable.

Continuing, because of Julius' teleportation and fighting style of maintaining distance, Shigaraki would be forced to also use more ranged attacks. That creates a disadvantage... for him. As Julius can exploit that by stopping and sending those attacks back at higher speed, fast enough to blitz the person who even used the attack as shown with Patry, someone who Julius acknowledges as fast and can dodge his attacks. (Keep in mind he could also store them in his spheres and just send them back later)
Both of them would continue adapting as the fight goes on, Julius by improving his anticipation, and Shigaraki through his body's adaptation and how he adapted to Deku's Gearshift speed.

As said above, most of Shigaraki's usual ranged options would have too large of an AoE to contain and store. And even if Julius is able to catch and contain something like Impure Beams, then Shigaraki would have no issue aim dodging it with his Danger Sense, or just straight up tanking it. In fact, Julius using faster attacks would just speed up Shigaraki's adaptation, as he continuously adapted to Deku's speedblitzes after getting pummeled. Something I want to know is how fast Julius' anticipation can get? At the moment, Julius' rating is 0.89c. If he's capped by the speed of light, then his anticipations would only get like 12% faster, unless I'm getting something wrong. That doesn't quite compare to Shigaraki being able to adapt to become blitz levels faster than his initial speed.

Shigaraki just needs to land a single hit yes, but that’s something Julius can make that WAAAY harder to achieve than the other way around (as in how hard to achieve can Shigaraki make Julius win-con). Between constantly maintaining distance, anticipating faster, and constant teleportation, Julius will be limiting Shigaraki's opportunities as he doesn't need to and won't do direct exchanges, especially not in close combat. He'll observe, analyze, and wait/plan towards a reliable counter/opening, while looking for ways to bait Shigaraki for that.

As mentioned above, Julius' answers to range attacks are mostly limited to just teleporting away, and his predictions wouldn't be able to keep up with Shigaraki's own speed increases (as struggling to keep up in speed would just accelerate his adaptation) + own analytical prediction and borderline precognition with Danger Sense, along with a blitz amp he can activate at any moment to finish the fight whenever he wants.

he avoided using offensive spells and focused on trying to simply seal him. Against Shigaraki, that "limitation" wouldn’t apply and we know Julius has access to much larger-scale attacks with his time acceleration that were basically impossible to avoid even for faster opponents due to their sheer range, and he wouldn’t hesitate to use offensive abilities here. Him constantly using his offensive attack, such as his bullets as a minor example, all around mana zone's range would matter because that kind of constant attacks could blind Shigaraki of the actual Chrono Stasis attacks that he would be using, which would overwhelm Danger Sense in the same way Deku’s Smokescreen did, by turning it into a constant alarm in his head. Important thing as well is that it's also being ignored how Mana Zone also boosts Julius and his attacks speed, on top of it making him able to summon attacks anywhere within the range of space he controls, even inside attacks or directly on top of his opponent, I'm not sure danger sense would be able to detect/avoid that.

Those "much larger-scale attacks" still aren't large enough to contain Shigaraki's AoE attacks or his giant Flesh Fortress (if he ever gets that far). And either way, by the time Julius gets to the point where he just starts randomly spamming attacks, Shigaraki would've adapted to become fast enough to overcome them on his own. As for the Mana Zone, Shigaraki would either spawn the giant Flesh Fortress to prevent himself from getting instantly obliterated, or just start dashing to escape his controlled area. As mentioned above, it seems that simply staying on the move makes it difficult enough for Julius to hit you.

Side note: I wanna note that I'm pretty sure Julius would know about how Shigaraki's danger sense and his other quriks work via his Information Analysis by simply looking at him, so that's another advantage.

His information analysis works by reading Mana. First we would have to establish whether Shigaraki has mana in this scenario or is just an anomaly like Asta. Second, you'd have to give me an example of Mana reading being able to tell mages about specific abilities, outside of attributes, including abilities that aren't mana based.

Side note 2: I'm fairly certain (unless Decay is also a blitz difference above Shigaraki and that isn't said on the page) decay would not be able to kill Julius even if it hit as he can just use his time manipulation on himself to reverse all the damages as if he never got decay'd.

That specific showing of damage reversal seems far too slow to matter. Decay should be pretty proportionate with Shigaraki's speed.

How much distance can he blitz through? As Julius could anticipate that coming and finish him off before that, or teleport high up and away, or use Chrono Anastasis to prevent Shiggy from activating quirks

Since it's a comparable speed increase to Gearshift and greater than Fa Jin, then he should be able to blitz through a couple city blocks worth of space at least. Also, can Chrono Anastasis even be activated while simultaneously spamming attacks? Rendering yourself useless against a quirkless Shigaraki seems like a quick way to die, considering Shigaraki can still just turn himself into a giant fortress and continue adapting.

also could he confuse the grimoire with Julius, as grimoires are linked to the user's soul and represent their life

Considering the grimoire would stay active since the beginning of the fight, Shigaraki would be able to track both at the same time, as Search can track up to 100 people at a time and constantly analyze them.

It would, but he can restrict it's range so it wouldn't be as bad

In other words, make the attack easier to dodge?

If he gets the stat difference yes, but considering what you say, danger sense would be screaming danger, i'm not so sure he wouldnt try to charge up something deadlier

It would depend on the distance between them and the actual threat level being read, but he could take an extra second to use heavy payload I suppose.

If such thing somehow happened I suppose, but on top of what Kazuma said, grimoires are supposed to be indestructible, as i said above they represent the life of the mage and are linked to their soul, here - a grimoire tanking Asta's attack without a single page being damaged. So unless Shiggy tries to use decay on it specifically he shouldn't be able to damage it. And uh ya know, just logically, mages would've been trying to do just that if it was so easy

Unironically, Decay should work, and Search would definitely register destroying the grimoire as a weakness. If it's linked to the soul, you could even argue that All For One could be used to steal, but I won't go that far.

 

[AthelChan]

lowk leaning julius

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

, I want to first point out that while Julius can use the same time stop spell

The version I am saying is the one he did againts the demon, that engulf his whole arm, that is enough AoE to catch shigaraki, I will continue reading your argument, I recently returned

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

In this context, an "in-character" Shigaraki would be extremely aggressive like he was like during the Final War arc. We see that immediately upon being "unleashed", his first action is to try to destroy everything around him using Decay. He would likely do something similar here, either decaying the surroundings right away or lunging forward to try to make direct contact with Julius and decay him. Either way, he will immediately try to attack aggressively.

The thing is that everyone is literally saying that thanks to danger sense he is not gonna do that and he is gonna use speed amps to one shot first and not do any decay shenanigans with AoE, if that was his true first option, then I would believe Julius can win for precog that, teleport, mana zone and spam chronostasis


So, if the fight is like you are saying, Julius wins, if Shigaraki starts with speed blitzing, then is incon, shigaraki supporters should clarify this right now to choose what is the outcome

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Shiggy is not gonna start with decay wave when Danger Sense and Search are screaming at him that this dude can easily **** him up if goes for his usual strategies.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

If he's capped by the speed of light

The cap is not counted for any growth mid battle (because is not logical, example: Asta growing 5 times in battle only AP but not on speed?) and also the cap right now is irrelevant, Yami did ftl feats in the same chapter he "could not react to light" plus it ignored that Morgen was using dark magic to weaken Yami

So ignored the cap for now

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Shiggy is not gonna start with decay wave when Danger Sense and Search are screaming at him that this dude can easily **** him up if goes for his usual strategies.

Yeah pretty much like how in Deku Vs Boros, he instantly one shotted Boros with soul hax the instant he tried to slime the entire planet due to danger sense. The same thing will happen here but Shigaraki going for insta perception blitz

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Just imagine that I am the number 1 fanboy of Black Clover and I am letting Shigaraki get the inconclusive, because he is fodder for Zagred

 

[Bruhtelho]

yah imo this really is just a "who can hit the other first" matchup and both have plenty of ways of achieving their said wincon so inconclusive FRA

 

[Mommyleona]

Yes, unironically. Going by how Ragdoll described her Quirk she does not need to actually see the target to keep track of them with Search

But was still tricked by Deku simply putting a soul into his blood huh? Why didnt he just see both at the same time right in front of him? And no, her not having to see means she can see them if they're in her field of vision (we saw that), that is however not the same as seeing things everywhere around yourself

Danger Sense combined with Shigaraki's busted level of AnaPre

His anapre is meaningless here and does not have nowhere near enough of feats to be able to predict teleportation or a chrono stasis with mana zone

instinctive action

I dont see that on his page?

I have two problems with this. The first is that most of Shigaraki's range attacks would be too difficult to stop or contain due to their sheer Area of Effect.

he can just stop this by putting time spell in front of himself

Since it's a comparable speed increase to Gearshift and greater than Fa Jin

The same thing will happen here but Shigaraki going for insta perception blitz

several fold blitz amps that scale to Gearshift which is several different blitz amps stacked on top of each other is not being overestimated in the slightest, it really just is that cracked.

Soo, i have been meaning to ask, can someone explain to me why it's a comparable increase to gearshift and fa jin exactly? as far as i remember, he mostly starts keeping up with Deku VIA stealing Danger sense, not via some arbitrary "quirk perception blitz amps" (that he never used before)
As he even himself implies that he's now able to dodge Deku's hits due to acquiring Danger Sense, and not because he's blitz amps faster

And even when Deku is extremely injured all over, and has his gearshift stop working, he does not just... insta blitz Deku?? why?
On the other hand we literally see Deku STILL outperform Shigaraki even with Shigaraki having danger sense and Deku not using gearshift

Yes Deku used a decoy to get close and blah blah, but we can clearly see him duck to dodge Shigaraki's hand and punch him straight in his chest, with this Shigaraki supposedly being gearshift + fa jin + danger sense all working together lvl, meaning perception blitz lvl over this deku, meaning he should be able to easily dodge and kill Deku right here, but he was not fast enough

can Chrono Anastasis even be activated while simultaneously spamming attacks? Rendering yourself useless against a quirkless Shigaraki seems like a quick way to die, considering Shigaraki can still just turn himself into a giant fortress and continue adapting.

Shigaraki cannot do anything while being time reverted lol

Considering the grimoire would stay active since the beginning of the fight, Shigaraki would be able to track both at the same time, as Search can track up to 100 people at a time and constantly analyze them.

Yet shigaraki was distracted by Deku simply putting a vestige in his blood, but wont be distracted by a random book in the sky? you just said even Deku used that to his advantage?

In other words, make the attack easier to dodge?

how does he "dodge" a chrono anastasis that will instantly start reverting him in time within the area of it's influence?

Unironically, Decay should work

I did say that yeah

Search would definitely register destroying the grimoire as a weakness

Trying to go for the grimoire is def not the best idea when Julius can kill Shigaraki if he wastes time trying to reach into the sky

Shiggy is not gonna start with decay wave when Danger Sense and Search are screaming at him that this dude can easily **** him up if goes for his usual strategies.

He does not have actual precog to just know what may happen that far ahead

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Shiggy didn't blitz Deku after he was injured because Blackwhip Overlay gives him a speed boost comparable to Gearshift, this is explicitly noted on Deku's profile.

 

[Mommyleona]

Shiggy didn't blitz Deku after he was injured because Blackwhip Overlay gives him a speed boost comparable to Gearshift, this is explicitly noted on Deku's profile.

How does Deku putting Blackwhip around himself to simply keep moving, because he's that injured, actually mean it's such an ABSURD amp in speed?

why did he not use that before? is blackwhip overlay actually noted to increase his speed?
Why did Shigaraki not blitz PRIOR to blackwhip overlay?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

How does Deku putting Blackwhip around himself to simply keep moving, because he's that injured, actually mean it's such an ABSURD amp in speed?

why did he not use that before? is blackwhip overlay actually noted to increase his speed?
Why did Shigaraki not blitz PRIOR to blackwhip overlay?

Because he was struggling even with Gearshift after Shiggy got his Quirks back yet despite having Danger Sense stolen he starts kind of going sicko mode with Overlay and begins beating his ass again despite the state of his body. As for why Shigaraki didn't just blitz him before he popped this it's because he stopped for a second to talk shit after borderline crippling Izuku, allowing him to pop this out.

 

[Machmatej]

How does Deku putting Blackwhip around himself to simply keep moving, because he's that injured, actually mean it's such an ABSURD amp in speed?

why did he not use that before? is blackwhip overlay actually noted to increase his speed?
Why did Shigaraki not blitz PRIOR to blackwhip overlay?

i'll reply to everything later, but i want to address this now to avoid confusion. Shigaraki was explicitly stated to have adapted to the speed of Izuku using Gearshift + Fa Jin, and even almost outsped Danger Sense's speed which has also previously been shown to prevent speedblitz attempts. And then Izuku almost got one-shot.

Later, when using Overlay, Izuku himself states that it's also a way for him to keep up with Shigaraki's speed without the use of Gearshift. More likely, it's not just Overlay itself amping his speed, but also a mix of adrenaline and a "going beyond" moment.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

"Going beyond moment"

Then Julius surpass his limits fr fr

 

[Mommyleona]

Because he was struggling even with Gearshift after Shiggy got his Quirks back yet despite having Danger Sense stolen he starts kind of going sicko mode with Overlay and begins beating his ass again despite the state of his body

Or maybe Shiggy did not suddenly grow to such absurd degree in speed, and more so just sneaked using the wave Deku to steal danger sense (also danger sense anti feat)

As for why Shigaraki didn't just blitz him before he popped this it's because he stopped for a second to talk shit after borderline crippling Izuku, allowing him to pop this out.

Soo uhh, the almighty danger sense couldn't sense that Deku is about to pop another busted ult that giga amps his speed to the point he can keep up with Shigaraki again without gearshift AND while really injured? Is this Shigaraki iq downscale or danger sense anti feat, or both? I'd say both.

Shigaraki was explicitly stated to have adapted to the speed of Izuku using Gearshift + Fa Jin, and even almost outsped Danger Sense's speed which has also previously been shown to prevent speedblitz attempts

and more so just sneaked using the wave Deku to steal danger sense

And Shiggy even then failed to touch Deku
Also

even almost outsped Danger Sense's speed

Or maybe danger sense cant sense every single thing perfectly and has its limits too?

Izuku himself states that it's also a way for him to keep up with Shigaraki's speed without the use of Gearshift.

He says to cope with his speed, as Deku is really injured and also suffering the recoil of Gearshift, so he has to somehow keep moving

More likely, it's not just Overlay itself amping his speed, but also a mix of adrenaline and a "going beyond" moment.

Well that's a.. flimsy argument to justify a really big but questionable speed amp, to be completely honest, but alright
Shigga more likely just didnt grow that much in speed

Also the showings of Shigaraki not going for a blitz with Deku, when he could, really put into a question if his first move would be a blitz just because of a danger sense going off

 

[Buraqibear]

Inconclusive fra

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Or maybe Shiggy did not suddenly grow to such absurd degree in speed, and more so just sneaked using the wave Deku to steal danger sense (also danger sense anti feat)

Soo uhh, the almighty danger sense couldn't sense that Deku is about to pop another busted ult that giga amps his speed to the point he can keep up with Shigaraki again without gearshift AND while really injured? Is this Shigaraki iq downscale or danger sense anti feat, or both? I'd say both.


And Shiggy even then failed to touch Deku
Also

Or maybe danger sense cant sense every single thing perfectly and has its limits too?

He says to cope with his speed, as Deku is really injured and also suffering the recoil of Gearshift, so he has to somehow keep moving

Well that's a.. flimsy argument to justify a really big but questionable speed amp, to be completely honest, but alright
Shigga more likely just didnt grow that much in speed

Also the showings of Shigaraki not going for a blitz with Deku, when he could, really put into a question if his first move would be a blitz just because of a danger sense going off

This just reads as cope arguments. It's as blatant as words could ever be that Overlay is just a cracked speed boost.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Or maybe Shiggy did not suddenly grow to such absurd degree in speed, and more so just sneaked using the wave Deku to steal danger sen

It is stated verbatim in the manga that Shigaraki grew to such speed and its on profile as well.

Btw this is all accepted on profiles so arguing against it here wouldn't do anything. Both Shigaraki's blitz growth and Deku's overlay speed

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

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