[Genshin] 4-A God-Tiers Upgrade 😰 (🥀)

[AsterReal]

I mean, it is 100% up to you to show the dimensions are legit. Specially when past cases show they actually aren't legit. If you can't... Tuff luck there.

That’s true, but if visual evidence doesn’t present a contradiction or inconsistency, does that invalidate the existence of celestial bodies? In the case of other dimensions, it has been proven that celestial bodies are not real. So far, with the Temple of Space and the Columbina dimension, there is no evidence to suggest that they are false (the Temple of Space even has a statement claiming that it is a ‘stagnant space-time’).

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

What I mean is, shouldn’t they also already qualify for a non-physical energy system ?
Non-physical energy basically means that their magical attacks have the same destructive capability. For example, if A uses fire magic and can destroy a building, then the water magic A uses can also destroy a building but this does not necessarily scale to their physical strength.

If the water doesn't have the same feat as fire, and there's no explanation or statement linking the destructive capability of both, then no, the water wouldn't have same AP as the fire. Again... You need a statement or showing proving Output of Energy is equal within the energy system. You already have scaling itself down, as they can damage characters that can tank their attacks with any attack they use. What you need is to show that the energy they use for creation is the same output they use for attacking.

First, we need to understand that Shades fundamentally can only use one authority. Take Asmoday, for example she is the ruler of Space, so everything she does is based on that authority, since she does not possess any other. That means whatever form of “magic” she uses is still derived from the authority of Space and will have the same level of capability. So, can’t we conclude that whatever she creates should be directly proportional to what she can destroy? Because she only uses one energy / one authority, this should already meet the standard for non-physical energy.

This proves all her techniques come from the same source, yes. It doesn't prove she has the same output as her creation stuff. So no, we can't conclude that.

As for UES, does it also increase their physical strength? Yes, that should already be clear. Mavuika explicitly explained that Shade energy enhances their physical power, which is why she became stronger than any Archon.

They increase their physical strength with this energy. Do they increase it at the same rate that they apply when creating stuff? That is the question here. Fortunately, you already bypass this through scaling, as they damage each other with energy attacks as much as physical ones. However, there's still the caveat of proving Creation feats scale to their energy usage. So far, only Kuuvahki shows this.

Mona explained that the stars in Stella Fortuna are real stars, with a distance of light-years.

Can you find the vid where all of this is stated? To have officially definitive proof.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I assume that's an agreement then.

Don't assume with me. If there aren't counterarguments in the next 24 hrs, then you will have my full agreement.

 

[Furina003]

If the water doesn't have the same feat as fire, and there's no explanation or statement linking the destructive capability of both, then no, the water wouldn't have same AP as the fire. Again... You need a statement or showing proving Output of Energy is equal within the energy system. You already have scaling itself down, as they can damage characters that can tank their attacks with any attack they use. What you need is to show that the energy they use for creation is the same output they use for attacking.


This proves all her techniques come from the same source, yes. It doesn't prove she has the same output as her creation stuff. So no, we can't conclude that.


They increase their physical strength with this energy. Do they increase it at the same rate that they apply when creating stuff? That is the question here. Fortunately, you already bypass this through scaling, as they damage each other with energy attacks as much as physical ones. However, there's still the caveat of proving Creation feats scale to their energy usage. So far, only Kuuvahki shows this.

Okay, I won't comment any more on this.
But I want to ask, does it have to be through an explicit statement? Or can we explain it on a case-by-case basis?

Can you find the vid where all of this is stated? To have officially definitive proof.

You can see here and here

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Okay, I won't comment any more on this.
But I want to ask, does it have to be through an explicit statement? Or can we explain it on a case-by-case basis?

I linked an alternate way to achieving it, which Kuuvahki stuff at least got it. I also mentioned an indirect way of showing it, through making note that using their energy for fights drains them, when creating the dimension did not.

You can see here and here

Thank you. I will wait for further comments from Puppet, but looks promising indeed.

 

[Furina003]

I linked an alternate way to achieving it, which Kuuvahki stuff at least got it. I also mentioned an indirect way of showing it, through making note that using their energy for fights drains them, when creating the dimension did not.


Thank you. I will wait for further comments from Puppet, but looks promising indeed.

ok, thanks

 

[Puppet43]

Because it gives the context + the timeline of it?

I originally mentioned that Istaroth cannot be scaled for that feat because he only manipulates the false sky to create a seal, unless you're trying to tell me that each Selve in Zibai has its own prison that Istaroth should scale, I don't know what you mean.

Zizhi's prison was not called "Moon Shadow" unlike Ziju's prison.

Thats what i said

Canon said they couldn't.

Yet Columbina's whole existence defies what Canon assume at that point

Because these realms we're talking about in OP are independent from that and have said has its own laws

Istaroth feat does reffear to Fake Sky

Do you see the problem? That's blatant non-sequitur. The premise only establishes existence in some cases, not a rule that applies universally.

U would have to proof these 2 are the outlier and not follow the same path as previous

So far, with the Temple of Space and the Columbina dimension, there is no evidence to suggest that they are false

There's no evidence for either side; it's neither stated as false nor as legitimate. That's why I have trouble using it as a basis for scaling, because it's pure assumption on whichever side you want to prove.

I will wait for further comments from Puppet, but looks promising indeed.

In the first link, Mona simply states that celestial bodies are genuine; it should be clarified that meteorites and comets are also considered celestial bodies (There is also the fact that within the verse, these objects are considered constellations, even though they do not possess a single star in their composition.), so it does not change the established interpretation.
Both links occur before Mona's investigation, where she discovers that the rocks are actually stars, so it's possible that when she said "that they were light-years away" it was simply a mistake on her part due to a lack of knowledge.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

In the first link, Mona simply states that celestial bodies are genuine; it should be clarified that meteorites and comets are also considered celestial bodies (There is also the fact that within the verse, these objects are considered constellations, even though they do not possess a single star in their composition.), so it does not change the established interpretation.
Both links occur before Mona's investigation, where she discovers that the rocks are actually stars, so it's possible that when she said "that they were light-years away" it was simply a mistake on her part due to a lack of knowledge.

Um, she explicitly says the stars themselves turned into meteors and fell out of the sky.

Unless you are saying they were always just rocks floating about, which these dialogues doesn't show clearly, at least (unless you nitpick what "turns into a meteor" means and say she's referring to the act of falling towards the world, and not the entire star being warped into a rock)

I do not like semantic arguments, ngl. Can you show where else are meteors called constellations?

 

[Furina003]

In the first link, Mona simply states that celestial bodies are genuine; it should be clarified that meteorites and comets are also considered celestial bodies (There is also the fact that within the verse, these objects are considered constellations, even though they do not possess a single star in their composition.), so it does not change the established interpretation.
Both links occur before Mona's investigation, where she discovers that the rocks are actually stars, so it's possible that when she said "that they were light-years away" it was simply a mistake on her part due to a lack of knowledge.

Bro, the celestial object in question is Stella Fortuna, which has been mentioned as a star, and what fell into Teyvat was only shards and part of the constellation, so you cannot base it on the form that has fallen into Teyvat because it is only a shard.

Unless you can prove with clear evidence that what fell to Teyvat was the complete form of the star, not just fragments.

 

[AsterReal]

Yet Columbina's whole existence defies what Canon assume at that point

The dialogue itself tells you that Columbina is still alive only because the Frosted Moon was banished beyond the false sky rather than being destroyed. The destruction of the Eternal Moon and the Iridescent Moon killed Aria and Sonnet; in Canon’s case, the fact that his Moon was not destroyed allowed him to live until he could no longer bear Teyvat’s rejection.

 

[Puppet43]

Can you show where else are meteors called constellations?

i cant show u sadly, because this is the only instance the meteors fell to Teyvat

Unless you are saying they were always just rocks floating about

It's something iffy, the aforementioned stars are woven into this structure by the creator of the false sky, thus manipulating fate.

Bro, the celestial object in question is Stella Fortuna, which has been mentioned as a star, and what fell into Teyvat was only shards and part of the constellation, so you cannot base it on the form that has fallen into Teyvat because it is only a shard.

Unless you can prove with clear evidence that what fell to Teyvat was the complete form of the star, not just fragments.

The link says "part of a constellation," not part of a star. If you know that constellations are clusters of stars, then no, for that structure to be so affected and for it to be said that a part fell, it must be something significantly large from one of the "stars."

 

[Puppet43]

The dialogue itself tells you that Columbina is still alive only because the Frosted Moon was banished beyond the false sky rather than being destroyed. The destruction of the Eternal Moon and the Iridescent Moon killed Aria and Sonnet; in Canon’s case, the fact that his Moon was not destroyed allowed him to live until he could no longer bear Teyvat’s rejection.

But we are talking about being able to live, so ofc we talking about moon not being destroyed

 

[MSahla]

i cant show u sadly, because this is the only instance the meteors fell to Teyvat

It's something iffy, the aforementioned stars are woven into this structure by the creator of the false sky, thus manipulating fate.

That's how the concept of fate in Genshin and constellations are the extension of this.

Citlali's voiceline mentioned this:

The heavens control human fate like a puppeteer controls a marionette. So, the inauspicious stars themselves do not have free will.

Basically, The stars of constellations are likened to strings by which the Heavenly Principles puppeteer the mortals of the Human Realm.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

i cant show u sadly, because this is the only instance the meteors fell to Teyvat

It's something iffy, the aforementioned stars are woven into this structure by the creator of the false sky, thus manipulating fate.

I mean, this doesn't necessarily disprove the stars that fell weren't legit before falling. But stuff about the false sky seems it needs a bit more verse knowledge which I don't have, so I will remain neutral on those particular ones.

 

[Furina003]

i cant show u sadly, because this is the only instance the meteors fell to Teyvat

It's something iffy, the aforementioned stars are woven into this structure by the creator of the false sky, thus manipulating fate.

Bro, these celestial bodies even have movement, this is why they know the future and the past, because destiny is seen from the movement of celestial bodies. This is the core of astrology in Teyvat. Layla explained that. So this doesn't even prove that the stars aren't real.

The link says "part of a constellation," not part of a star. If you know that constellations are clusters of stars, then no, for that structure to be so affected and for it to be said that a part fell, it must be something significantly large from one of the "stars."

It's said to be shards, meaning only fragments are dropped.
Yes, I've handed this over to the staff, I've already conveyed everything.

 

[MSahla]

I mean, this doesn't necessarily disprove the stars that fell weren't legit before falling. But stuff about the false sky seems it needs a bit more verse knowledge which I don't have, so I will remain neutral on those particular ones.

So, of all the 4-A feats mentioned in OP, i think the only one you Agree with is Columbina and her Kuuvahki stuff?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So, of all the 4-A feats mentioned in OP, i think the only one you Agree with is Columbina and her Kuuvahki stuff?

As having applicable scaling, yes. Since the Heavenly Principles are shown in lore to be beyond Moon Goddess stuff, they can upscale.

However, I also agreed they can have Pocket Dimension Manipulation (or at least, the ones that have the showings). It's just not AP applicable (though doesn't end up mattering since they will upscale to the rating still)

 

[MSahla]

However, I also agreed they can have Pocket Dimension Manipulation (or at least, the ones that have the showings). It's just not AP applicable (though doesn't end up mattering since they will upscale to the rating still)

Yeah, it's only Istaroth who doesn't have Pocket Reality Manipulation, and Asmoday's one is just more justification.

 

[Puppet43]

Bro, these celestial bodies even have movement, this is why they know the future and the past, because destiny is seen from the movement of celestial bodies. This is the core of astrology in Teyvat

Are small objects like meteorites, stationary or something like that?
Furthermore, it is so difficult to imagine that Phanes could have manipulated how rocks function, so that they behave like stars from the perspective of the people of Teyvat

It's said to be shards, meaning only fragments are dropped.

I dont know from where the heck u actually got the fack that shard = small
Mind u, the definition of shard is

a piece of a broken glass, cup, container, or similar object

I mean, this doesn't necessarily disprove the stars that fell weren't legit before falling.

I must emphasize that in recent months, one of the most astonishing feats of verse was bringing a moon into the false sky, and yet it appears to be of a similar size to our moon from Teyvat's perspective. So it doesn't make much sense that a moon, which is similar to ours in both size and distance and which is on the edge of the false sky, could suddenly have the false sky contain countless real stars

As having applicable scaling, yes. Since the Heavenly Principles are shown in lore to be beyond Moon Goddess stuff, they can upscale.

Only for HP or also Bina and the rest of top tiers?

 

[MSahla]

I must emphasize that in recent months, one of the most astonishing feats of verse was bringing a moon into the false sky,

Tbh, i don't really believe this visual of them bringing the moon. It is probably just visual of them so we can know that the Moon entered the false sky.

We already go to the moon, and see how far it is from the earth. Yet in that cutscene, it shows that the Moon is so close to the earth. Do you get what i mean?

Well, granted, it probably also because of that domain of Dottore Boss is his pocket realm, which was mentioned by the devs.

and yet it appears to be of a similar size to our moon from Teyvat's perspective. So it doesn't make much sense that a moon, which is similar to ours in both size and distance and which is on the edge of the false sky, could suddenly have the false sky contain countless real stars

Even if the moon is "moon-like", that says nothing about whether the rest of the sky is just a projections or not real thing. So this is just Argument of Incredulity.

Only for HP or also Bina and the rest of top tiers?

This is an upscale for HP, Shades and Nibelung, and those who are scale to them.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Only for HP or also Bina and the rest of top tiers?

Whoever scales to the HP in turn

Columbina naturally scales. She did the feat lol

 

[Furina003]

Are small objects like meteorites, stationary or something like that?
Furthermore, it is so difficult to imagine that Phanes could have manipulated how rocks function, so that they behave like stars from the perspective of the people of Teyvat

I dont know from where the heck u actually got the fack that shard = small
Mind u, the definition of shard is

Provide proof that it's the complete shape of a constellation.

Oh yeah, Perhaps this is the final point, Stella Fortuna is explained to not disappear even if the person who possesses it has fallen, but instead evolves into a new constellation.

This strengthens my argument that what falls into Teyvat is not the complete form of Stella Fortuna, but only a fragment of it.

So, based on the known evidence:
1. Mona explains that stars are real and exist at light-year distances.

2. It is stated that what falls into Teyvat is only a part or shards of a constellation.

3. These celestial objects have movement, which is what astrology uses to predict the future.

4. Stella Fortuna does not disappear even if its owner has fallen, but instead evolves into a new constellation.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Tbh, i don't really believe this visual of them bringing the moon. It is probably just visual of them so we can know that the Moon entered the false sky.

We already go to the moon, and see how far it is from the earth. Yet in that cutscene, it shows that the Moon is so close to the earth. Do you get what i mean?

Well, granted, it probably also because of that domain of Dottore Boss is his pocket realm, which was mentioned by the devs

Bro theres literal summary in archive of quest confirming they pulled the moon down and u LITERALLY made a crt to use that feat as a class Z ls for characters this is actually mental .
The feat is confirmed MANY times and u call it just visual

 

[MSahla]

Bro theres literal summary in archive of quest confirming they pulled the moon down and u LITERALLY made a crt to use that feat as a class Z ls for characters this is actually mental .
The feat is confirmed MANY times and u call it just visual

That's not what meant. I'm not saying that their actions of bringing the moon down is not real, but the visual of the moon breaking through that "false sky"

 

[MSahla]

Anyway, that's just my believe so just ignore it.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

That's not what meant. I'm not saying that their actions of bringing the moon down is not real, but the visual of the moon breaking through that "false sky"

so like the feat happened but what we see didnt is that what u say? i dont get what this means at all

 

[Furina003]

Tbh, i don't really believe this visual of them bringing the moon. It is probably just visual of them so we can know that the Moon entered the false sky.

We already go to the moon, and see how far it is from the earth. Yet in that cutscene, it shows that the Moon is so close to the earth. Do you get what i mean?

Well, granted, it probably also because of that domain of Dottore Boss is his pocket realm, which was mentioned by the devs.

Even if the moon is "moon-like", that says nothing about whether the rest of the sky is just a projections or not real thing. So this is just Argument of Incredulity.


This is an upscale for HP, Shades and Nibelung, and those who are scale to them.

in short it's just the creation of a portal, because we are also in the dottore creation space.

We really can't ignore this proof

we don't see any barrier surrounding the planet at all. This means that the visible cosmos is still in the fake sky.

 

[Puppet43]

Tbh, i don't really believe this visual of them bringing the moon. It is probably just visual of them so we can know that the Moon entered the false sky.

We already go to the moon, and see how far it is from the earth. Yet in that cutscene, it shows that the Moon is so close to the earth. Do you get what i mean?

I'm not defending the fact that the moon is 30 meters from Earth, that's clear. I'm simply pointing out that the moon is at the edge of the false sky and yet it appears life-size, not dwarfed (as our moon should appear at a distance of 2 light-years).

Even if the moon is "moon-like", that says nothing about whether the rest of the sky is just a projections or not real thing. So this is just Argument of Incredulity.

Sahl, if we had a star at the distance the moon is from us, we'd be fried. Where are you getting your disbelief from? This is basic physics: a star nearby = a lot of heat boom burning up (not to mention the gravitational energy it would have on us, obliterating us).

Provide proof that it's the complete shape of a constellation.

I never stated this, so I can just ignore it.

but instead evolves into a new constellation. This strengthens my argument

Since when does the fact that a constellation changes users mean that the stars are real? They are literally two phenomena that have nothing to do with each other.

1. Mona explains that stars are real and exist at light-year distances.

Both links occur before Mona's investigation, where she discovers that the rocks are actually stars, so it's possible that when she said "that they were light-years away" it was simply a mistake on her part due to a lack of knowledge.

2. It is stated that what falls into Teyvat is only a part or shards of a constellation.

I dont know from where the heck u actually got the fack that shard = small
Mind u, the definition of shard is a piece of a broken glass, cup, container, or similar object

3. These celestial objects have movement, which is what astrology uses to predict the future.

Are small objects like meteorites, stationary or something like that?
Furthermore, it is so difficult to imagine that Phanes could have manipulated how rocks function, so that they behave like stars from the perspective of the people of Teyvat

Furina, I've already corroborated all the points you've made. Could you please refrain from repeating the same argument that I've already refuted for the fifth time?

Whoever scales to the HP in turn

Columbina naturally scales. She did the feat lol

It has already been mentioned that there is no evidence that the sky in question consists of real stars (Besides, Sahl has no concrete evidence that they are not stars, since when questioned he simply tends to ignore passing on the evidence he should provide), and because this region is known for having suspicious celestial bodies—whether planets, stars, or black holes—that are not real, do not behave as they should, or are simply disproven by the way they are created, I believe we should not attempt to scale these stars when we have no evidence that they are either real or fake.

 

[Furina003]

I never stated this, so I can just ignore it.

hmmm? whatever

Since when does the fact that a constellation changes users mean that the stars are real? They are literally two phenomena that have nothing to do with each other.

bro, that star is said to be a real star.
How could the star fall into Teyvat? While it has been said that the star will not disappear? And only evolve into a new constellation? So the one that fell into Teyvat was not Stella Fortuna

Furina, I've already corroborated all the points you've made. Could you please refrain from repeating the same argument that I've already refuted for the fifth time?

I don't even see any strong evidence to refute that.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

It has already been mentioned that there is no evidence that the sky in question consists of real stars (Besides, Sahl has no concrete evidence that they are not stars, since when questioned he simply tends to ignore passing on the evidence he should provide), and because this region is known for having suspicious celestial bodies—whether planets, stars, or black holes—that are not real, do not behave as they should, or are simply disproven by the way they are created, I believe we should not attempt to scale these stars when we have no evidence that they are either real or fake.

I don't agree with that, sorry.

There's a point where going for the downplay unnecessarily is being unreasonable. What you're suggesting is akin to "I don't actually have anything against it specifically, but let's not use it anyways", and that's just not it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

As having applicable scaling, yes. Since the Heavenly Principles are shown in lore to be beyond Moon Goddess stuff, they can upscale.

However, I also agreed they can have Pocket Dimension Manipulation (or at least, the ones that have the showings). It's just not AP applicable (though doesn't end up mattering since they will upscale to the rating still)

I share similar thoughts

 

[Planck69]

Likewise, agree with Lephyr's conclusions.

 

[MSahla]

Waiting for the grace period.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

Still waiting for someone to respond to me and prove that the celestial bodies in question are real.

Mona used to think that the “sky is fake” was just a metaphorical phrasing. Don’t know why we’re using that as evidence when she only got some sort of confirmation till Scaramouche.

Or the fact that there’s no reason for Bina to create a pocket dimension with real stars in the sky that require as much energy as real stars do to create. Neither does “it disappears as she stops using her power” work as an argument, that is a blatant non-sequitur. Her Lunar-Domain doesn’t need to have real stars (can’t even prove they’re stars in the first place) for it to disappear after. Characters do big domain expansion moves in fiction all the time.

 

[Puppet43]

Characters do big domain expansion moves in fiction all the time.

Bro, Gojo Domain = Has stars
Gojo tier 4

bro, that star is said to be a real star.

It never is

How could the star fall into Teyvat?

Oh yes, that makes it worse. If this star were like the stars in our universe, why did a piece that fell from it contain solid material like rock? Remember that stars are composed primarily of hydrogen and helium, which make up approximately 70-90% of their mass. They also contain traces of other heavier elements such as carbon, oxygen, neon, and iron, which are responsible for their color and characteristics. So why do we find traces of solid matter in a mostly gaseous object?

While it has been said that the star will not disappear? And only evolve into a new constellation? So the one that fell into Teyvat was not Stella Fortuna

Again, i never said the full star fell, i agree with ur statment of it being a shard, but a "shard" of something doesnt tell u the full size of that something, so you shouldnt use it as a evidence to support a claim

I don't even see any strong evidence to refute that.

Then u would be committing an Argument by Pigheadedness

 

[Furina003]

It never is

you just ignore the obvious text

Oh yes, that makes it worse. If this star were like the stars in our universe, why did a piece that fell from it contain solid material like rock? Remember that stars are composed primarily of hydrogen and helium, which make up approximately 70-90% of their mass. They also contain traces of other heavier elements such as carbon, oxygen, neon, and iron, which are responsible for their color and characteristics. So why do we find traces of solid matter in a mostly gaseous object?

Yes, that invalidates all your arguments, because stars cannot fall into the teyvat, but evolve into new constellations.

Again, i never said the full star fell, i agree with ur statment of it being a shard, but a "shard" of something doesnt tell u the full size of that something, so you shouldnt use it as a evidence to support a claim

If that's true, it's not Stella Fortuna

Then u would be committing an Argument by Pigheadedness

I just don't agree with your argument, because I think it's really not strong enough to refute it.

 

[Puppet43]

you just ignore the obvious text

You mean when Mona didn't believe fake sky was real?

Yes, that invalidates all your arguments

No, i kinda invalidate urs

I just don't agree with your argument, because I think it's really not strong enough to refute it.

Then again, Invincible Ignorant fallacy, gg

If that's true, it's not Stella Fortuna

It is, litterally stated

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Or the fact that there’s no reason for Bina to create a pocket dimension with real stars in the sky that require as much energy as real stars do to create. Neither does “it disappears as she stops using her power” work as an argument, that is a blatant non-sequitur. Her Lunar-Domain doesn’t need to have real stars (can’t even prove they’re stars in the first place) for it to disappear after. Characters do big domain expansion moves in fiction all the time.

Welcome to Vs Battles. You will have great frustration here, as these feats are indeed common, and as such, we do accept them as legit as long as they pass our standards. And this feat does.

You not liking the argument is fine (I myself don't, believe it or not), but we do use them for our profiles. It is what it is.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

@Sahlwrld, Characters are affected by this?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Sahlwrld, Characters are affected by this?

Everyone that scales to Columbina and above.