The nuking of Undertale: Part 2 out of 6 or 7 | "Faster than Sound? Not even Faster than a car."

[GodlyCharmander]

This is technically slightly wrong.

The damage occurs on frame index 5. Since it's zero-indexed, that's the 6th frame out of 7. You can see from his sprite sheet that this is the sprite where the attack covers the full box and he's mid-swing; the one after the sprite you posted here.

It's saying the index = 5 frame is where the damage call is applied, and according to the decompiled data, that's the frame I posted, it matches the name. I don't think that sprite sheet is reliable for frame names.

Proof that even yandev-tier programmers can be fine, as long as they're goated elsewhere and make choices that suit their skills.

Of course.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Alright, the result of the Asgore calc even with 1-3 frames looked absurd for me so I looked more in depth this time. I wanna note all the issues I have with the calc right now. Let it be known I'm not a CGM so CGMs themselves have to give their opinion on this cause I could be wrong so don't take my word as immediate and change it unless a CGM says so.

snip

snip

snip

(Mentioning cause you are CGMs)

(The calc is here)

Asgore calc changed

Outside of what I explained and the fact that it should be 4/30 for the timeframe here and here and maybe 5 considering what Godly said here, I have two issues.

1. Asgore's height and method of getting the trident's length
The way of getting the trident's length via Asgore's height is weird. It's using this image and comparing it to this one, even though Asgore is with his head down during battle which we even visibly see lowers his height:

And there's also the fact that in the previous thread it was agreed that using overworld heights are incredibly inconsistent aswell. It's why Mettaton Ex is currently used as 1.7m (average man) despite the fact that if you pixel scaled his height compared to "1.37m Frisk" you'd get over 2 meters. I don't think Asgore would be much different than that height, the calculation using the pixel scaling is putting him at almost 3 meters tall.

2. Movement Distance
For some reason, the trident's trail is being used as Asgore's speed. Asgore himself doesnt move his arms "15.6312292154m". Asgore's hands only move this much. There's a difference between the distance the pointy part of a long ranged weapon will travel and the distance that the wielder himself moves. If I swing my hand without a sword at regular speeds, but then with a sword, if you use the sword's point path, you will get a way higher speed even though I swung at the exact same speed.

Also I don't think the whole using it as KE is valid but I could be wrong on that note.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Also I don't think the whole using it as KE is valid but I could be wrong on that note.

Yeah actually, since it doesn’t weigh a lot it probably can’t. Also, there is no difference in HP damage regardless on whether Asgore does it faster or slower, which I remember was accepted as definitive evidence against KE usage in the 1/7th nuking of Undertale.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

And there's also the fact that in the previous thread it was agreed that using overworld heights are incredibly inconsistent aswell. It's why Mettaton Ex is currently used as 1.7m (average man) despite the fact that if you pixel scaled his height compared to "1.37m Frisk" you'd get over 2 meters. I don't think Asgore would be much different than that height, the calculation using the pixel scaling is putting him at almost 3 meters tall.

I dunno, he is intended to tower over adult humans, so don't think 3m is that far-fetched.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I dunno, he is intended to tower over adult humans, so don't think 3m is that far-fetched.

Plot twist: he is actually aurafarming in front of a three years old toddler

 

[Rodriiogo]

I dunno, he is intended to tower over adult humans, so don't think 3m is that far-fetched.

The issue arrives when you look that even in the battle mode (where the sprites are bigger and were agreed to be more reliable in the thread aswell) the difference between the heights of monsters is not meant to be that big and official artworks showing that Asriel and Toriel are not that big when compared to other monsters even in arts. Which would then lead to issues like, quoting myself from the previous thread:

The humans must be so kind and great to create giant streets, giant pavements and beaches, giant school, giant bushes and a giant house for Toriel to live in, in the surface.
Frisk calls the sink in the mettaton cooking show the regularly sized sink, do you think Mettaton was dwarfing it during this scene?
Papyrus gets a flag from Undyne from the overworld. Did the humans that dropped it in the mountain convinently had a giant flag?
Or the fact that all modern technology that the underworld has and alot of objects come from the surface? Were they all convinently sized extra for some reason when they fell?

At this point I (or someone) might actually need to do a whole research and then a blog or thread on the heights for the entire verse, cause stuff like Frisk being a dwarf for example isn't even inconsistent considering both the game and the official art also barely make them barely bigger than the little bird (straight up said like that) with the game showing this being the case even by having it carry Frisk. With ducks being around 38.5cm on average which would make Frisk dwarf sized. And some official art also agrees with them being that small really but then it also has inconsistent monster sizes sometimes by making some huge and other dwarfs so it is really, really not consistent. They can't decide on heights.

 

[DaReaperMan]

The issue arrives when you look that even in the battle mode (where the sprites are bigger and were agreed to be more reliable in the thread aswell) the difference between the heights of monsters is not meant to be that big and official artworks showing that Asriel and Toriel are not that big when compared to other monsters even in arts. Which would then lead to issues like, quoting myself from the previous thread:


At this point I (or someone) might actually need to do a whole research and then a blog or thread on the heights for the entire verse, cause stuff like Frisk being a dwarf for example isn't even inconsistent considering both the game and the official art also barely make them barely bigger than the little bird (straight up said like that) with the game showing this being the case even by having it carry Frisk. With ducks being around 38.5cm on average which would make Frisk dwarf sized. And some official art also agrees with them being that small really but then it also has inconsistent monster sizes sometimes by making some huge and other dwarfs so it is really, really not consistent. They can't decide on heights.

Use imgchest or catbox or something besides the famously unreliable Igmur, please.

If you need more of a push, anyone living in the UK can't see your scans.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The issue arrives when you look that even in the battle mode (where the sprites are bigger and were agreed to be more reliable in the thread aswell) the difference between the heights of monsters is not meant to be that big and official artworks showing that Asriel and Toriel are not that big when compared to other monsters even in arts.

Why don't we use the latter to scale their heights?

then it also has inconsistent monster sizes sometimes by making some huge and other dwarfs so it is really, really not consistent. They can't decide on heights.

This is HEAVILY stylized and chibi.

 

[SnakesCity]

It is very unlikely to find consistent heights from official art given that Temmie's art has drastically changed and evolved over time and in some cases like the art for the collector's edition soundtrack a fan artist (who already have their own idea of what the characters look like) is brought on to do the art, which isn't reliable either. There's some Temmie art where Frisk only reaches up to around Asgore's calf and knee lol.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

It is very unlikely to find consistent heights from official art given that Temmie's art has drastically changed and evolved over time and in some cases like the art for the collector's edition soundtrack a fan artist (who already have their own idea of what the characters look like) is brought on to do the art, which isn't reliable either. There's some Temmie art where Frisk only reaches up to around Asgore's calf and knee lol.

Using the intro style that's CANON to the game would be the best choice then.

I understand OP wanted to point out how inconsistent the sprites are, but not giving a solution that isn't just as inconsistent would be preferrable..

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah I recommend just pixelscaling from average human height compared to Asgore from the opening sequence, there's no rocket science here.

 

[Qurbonboev]

About timeframe. Clear visuals that we can see ingame >>>> fiddling in code.
You can clearly see ingame that damage applies in one frame, and whole movement ends in 3 frames(and later frames clearly imply afterimages).

Also, there is no difference in HP damage regardless on whether Asgore does it faster or slower, which I remember was accepted as definitive evidence against KE usage in the 1/7th nuking of Undertale.

Argument was that Mettaton legs do same damage whenever they move or not, which is much heavier contradiction then with Asgore feat

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Argument was that Mettaton legs do same damage whenever they move or not, which is much heavier contradiction then with Asgore feat

Still the same principle though.

 

[Randomuser3412]

Yeah actually, since it doesn’t weigh a lot it probably can’t.

The calc puts it at over a ton. How much more do you want it to weigh?

With ducks being around 38.5cm on average which would make Frisk dwarf sized.

Feeling the pain of AHiT fans

 

[AyOgUyS]

The calc puts it at over a ton.

that...doesn't feel right...

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

The calc puts it at over a ton. How much more do you want it to weigh?

Forgor it was 200kg and not 2000kg, mb. But KE logic still applies, probably.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ok I am finally home, and I'll say my piece on the electricity stuff.

Mettaton
I've seen some people argue that since Mettaton has similar attacks, it validates this as real electricity due to him being a robot. This also does not work. We see that his "electricity attacks" accelerate as they further move and rotate which is just not realistic and how real electricity moves. But further more, the same type of attack is used by Alphys in the cutscene before the Asriel fight. We see that the attack stands still. Despite Mettaton using the core, it is very obvious that the attack is a type of magic that even Alphys can use, not actual electricity coming out of it.

Actual Realistic showings of electricity
There are way more realistic showings of how electricity actually looks and works in the verse, and it is nothing like the attacks that both Mettaton and Vulkin use during their fight.

• In the Tile Puzzle, we know that the yellow tiles are actual electric and electrocute Frisk with them even shocking you if you step on water connected to it. When Frisk steps on one of them in the Mettaton sequence we see that it completely immobilizes Frisk upon contact and makes them have to step back, Frisk can not "outrun" or just "take" this electricity. (Note that there is no reason as to why Mettaton would use higher voltage in the puzzle than in his fight if his electricity magic attacks were actually real electricity as he intended to kill you)
• In the Alphys VS Mettaton Quiz, you are given four options by each question. If you choose the incorrect one it's shown that actual electricity will shock you. This electricity straight up blitzes Frisk, slows down the soul's movements making it barely able to move alongside doing more damage than any of Metatton's or Vulkin's attacks. This is the same Frisk that is faster and unaffected by both of their attacks.

It is made extremely obvious that despite Frisk being able to dodge and take the magic attacks from Mettaton and Vulkin, actual real electricity blitzes, electrocutes them to the point they can barely move and does extreme damage when at high voltage.

The main problem is that you're pretty much saying that there is a difference between magic and "real" electricity when... everything in the Underground is ran from Magical Electricity, which would make also all those examples of the Tile Puzzle and Mettaton also cases of magical electricity, especially given that Mettaton himself claims that he's made of Magic and Metal. This is extremely important as Magical Electricity in the Underground has to behave almost the same as the actual one in properties, given that all of Monsterkind's modern technology comes from the trash of the human world, and we all know that humans normally lack magic.

The magical electricity monsters use must be fully comparable in most of the aspects to the actual electricity, given that not only it's used to power up the Underground like one expects normal electricity to do, but also powers up in the same way the technology monsters get from the human world.

I also think that you're heavily making weird nitpicks:

• The Tile Puzzle is supposed to do what? It hits Frisk, but it does not even fully paralyze them like you're claiming, they are still moving a bit between frames before backing off (I took away some frames where they stand still, but they do still move and don't get fully paralyzed). It only stuns them like any other electric attack. Plus they weren't blitzed, how were they supposed to dodge it when it was right at their feet?
• The MTT one seems to be the most glaring, but you're ignoring that it's instead an attack that's actually much weirder than real electricity as unlike the tile that does not even damage Frisk, that attacks always halves Frisk's HP (it's even on his profile). We all know that speed of electricity increases depending from intensity and voltage, hence why Lightning is as fast as it is, so what exactly stops this from being an attack that is simply much stronger than MTT's standard electricity? We know that monsters kinda do follow some inner code of honor (Undyne giving to Frisk one of her spears to allow them defending themselves even in Genocide despite them being a threat to both humans and monsters is an example) which Mettaton also kinda follows given that he wants to entertain an actual audicence that is indeed watching, why would he just spam instant-kill moves on Frisk despite him pretty much wanting them do be dead? We also have the issue of Mettaton EX being implied to consume much more energy than his Box form, which would make using such a strong electric discharge pretty taxing to him.

I am aware that one of the problems OP has brought is Mettaton EX's bolts getting faster as time goes, but...

There is Mettaton Heart that produces electric attack. Presumably it should be able to produce electric field

A magnetic field is pretty much necessary for any electricity discharge to even happen to begin with (how else would it be moving?), even lightnings need one. We have estabilished above that magical electricity MUST be comparable to real one, as otherwise how would you explain literally it powering also human items in a way that one would expect to?

I'll agree that the Vulkin one might be kinda too weird for VSBW standards (even though I still personally agree with it but that's not the place for it I suppose), but the OP is technically lying about these things not being called electricity. Both Vulkin and Mettaton's electric attacks are called lightning in the game files (something the agreeing part is using through using coding bits), so I cannot see how Toby did not intend for them to be genuine electricity, you can indeed see that there is some intent, especially given that the gamefiles always call the attacks what are they supposed to be (example being Shyren's attacks being notes, and the fire attacks being fire).

I technically wanna argue that the Mettaton one can still be used as electricity given that magical electricity is all he uses and a clearly stronger version of which was also with a duraneg power against the SOUL was what was blitzing and stunning Frisk, not common electricity. Dismissing it being electricity by using clearly not comparable examples (while still also being magic btw) is kinda dishonest if you ask me.

Regarding the sound bits...

I also do not really agree with using Shyren as a fair comparison. I was always skeptical of that one being sound myself. truth to be told (notes are not sound, after all), but the Bark one has a more grounded basis, given that it is traveling in a linear path in air (something OP did use as a contradiction for Shyren).

As I've already mentioned above here:

I do not think any of these is comparable to Greater Dog's case:

• The first is Mettaton just altering the dialogue box in some way, and we already know he can break the fourth wall to some degree as he could also change the name of the game window, and in Deltarune we know that dialogue boxes are indeed existing to some degree in-universe.
• The second is just Napstablook using Text Manipulation that is not even an attack, I don't get why is it used here.
• The third one is also Text Manipulation like Spamton's attacks coming from some books(?), I do not see why is it even compared to Greater Dog here, the origin of the attack is not even the same.

It's clear that the context surrounding these 4 is different enough to make them not comparable.

The contradictions are not really that good, and besides...

The point is that we do see that shaping magic into words is something usual in-verse (Mettaton's words should still be part of his magic even if it's a fourth wall break) over the assumption of actual sound being used as an attack or somehow mixing with magic? Or do we assume the barks aren't magic and are just actual sound attacks that do not correlate to magic? Regardless, the intended point from those are that text attacks are shown to be possible in-verse, somehow mixing magic with sound itself is not, so the assumption that "It's a bark so it's sound" has a weaker ground/basis in a verse like this especially with the contradictions on said "sound attacks" speed I laid out alongside them not moving realistically.

The issue is that the first is just a funny way mess with the game mechanics (the text includes also thoughts, so it's clear that it's something deeper than just that), Napstablook is not even using sound but just making words appear, and the Omega Flowey bit are literally just words from a book, not even spoken ones.

It is clear that the "words" here have different sources and not all are sound, only Greater Dog is. I mean, yeah, Greater Dog is making his barks into attacks, but I think it's meant to be sound rather than whatever other thing that is then made into words that is not sound.

At this point I (or someone) might actually need to do a whole research and then a blog or thread on the heights for the entire verse, cause stuff like Frisk being a dwarf for example isn't even inconsistent considering both the game and the official art also barely make them barely bigger than the little bird (straight up said like that) with the game showing this being the case even by having it carry Frisk. With ducks being around 38.5cm on average which would make Frisk dwarf sized. And some official art also agrees with them being that small really but then it also has inconsistent monster sizes sometimes by making some huge and other dwarfs so it is really, really not consistent. They can't decide on heights.

Unrelated, but using official art for any kind of powerscaling argument is a no-no. We have a whole blog in full detail arguing why side materials like official merch is not canon to the games, as the reason why is that Toby is not making them but rather just approving them to Fangamer to be used as official marketing material.

 

[SomebodyData]

~~Snip~~

Quite a bit there but I will note that if everything has the same source of power and even the OP acknowledged that it has shown the realistic characters of electricity, i.e. the Tile Puzzle and Quiz, feels like a slam dunk against the OP, unless I'm missing something. Disagree with the downgrade primarily for this reason specifically.

Also, really convenient that Toby has been pretty clear on what's canon haha

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also, really convenient that Toby has been pretty clear on what's canon haha

The bro's hyperfixations high-key do help a lot lol.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Ok I am finally home, and I'll say my piece on the electricity stuff.

The main problem is that you're pretty much saying that there is a difference between magic and "real" electricity when... everything in the Underground is ran from Magical Electricity, which would make also all those examples of the Tile Puzzle and Mettaton also cases of magical electricity, especially given that Mettaton himself claims that he's made of Magic and Metal. This is extremely important as Magical Electricity in the Underground has to behave almost the same as the actual one in properties, given that all of Monsterkind's modern technology comes from the trash of the human world, and we all know that humans normally lack magic.

The magical electricity monsters use must be fully comparable in most of the degrees to the actual electricity, given that not only it's used to power up the Underground like one expects normal electricity to do, but also powers up in the same way the technology monsters get from the human world.

Yeah but there's a significant difference between proving there's some related properties between the two, and refuting the multiple contradictions presented by machine-related electricity, and bullet-hell patterns that accelerate over time.

They still exist, no? Frisk is mechanically unaffected by the identical-looking electricity bullets in battle. If magical electricity and real electricity were behaviorally equivalent in all relevant properties, this distinction shouldn't exist.

I also vouch for the idea that the electricity from the core, despite also being magical to some extent, is fundamentally different from the magic generated from monster ability, as Alphys explicitly stated that the magical electricity from the core is converted directly from geothermical energy, meaning it is based on real energy in the first place, like a Type 1 Civilization, whereas magic generated from monsters has no such transmutation.

That's a very low bar. It says nothing about whether combat-applicable magic attacks that look like electricity obey electromagnetic physics at the particle level. A magic-powered lightbulb glowing is not evidence that a magic bullet accelerating in battle is a charged particle responding to a Coulomb field. These are categorically different claims, and you're conflating them.

There's a literal transmutation pipeline, real physical energy goes in, and the output is grounded in that physical origin. That's why Core electricity behaves consistently with real electricity: it has a real energy basis by design. Monster-generated magic attacks have no such pipeline. They originate purely from monster magic with no stated physical grounding.

The burden is on you to demonstrate that monster magic attacks are also grounded in real physical energy conversion, imo. The game never demonstrates THAT.

I also think that you're heavily making weird nitpicks:

• The Tile Puzzle is supposed to do what? It hits Frisk, but it does not even fully paralyze them like you're claiming, they are still moving a bit between frames before backing off (I took away some frames where they stand still, but they do still move and don't get fully paralyzed). It only stuns them like any other electric attack.

In-Battle electric attacks, in fact, do not stun Frisk whatsoever. It makes them FASTER in the case of Vulkin.

I am aware that one of the problems OP has brought is Mettaton EX's bolts getting faster as time goes, but...

A magnetic field is pretty much necessary for any electricity discharge to even happen to begin with (how else would it be moving?), even lightnings need one. We have estabilished above that magical electricity MUST be comparable to real one, as otherwise how would you explain literally it powering also human items in a way that one would expect to?

That's fine and all, but what about the fact Alphys deliberately has the same attacks as Mettaton, even uses the exact same code in the game files, and she can stop the attack mid-air and the attack blocks something, implying physicality. This is definitive proof that the attacks are controlled remotely, and not are just thrown in the air. Real electromagnetic discharge even in a non-uniform field cannot be paused by the caster. It propagates according to field geometry and dissipates. An attack that freezes in place on command is by definition remotely controlled, which means guided magic, which means the trajectory and acceleration are intentional outputs of the magic, not passive responses to physics.

Arguing for the magnetic field is a thing, but they don't accelerate electricity at a constant rate at a specific angle with no natural path. Yes, a magnetic field is involved in real electrical discharge. But magnetic fields do not accelerate charges in isolation, the Lorentz force from a magnetic field acts perpendicular to velocity, meaning it curves paths but does no work and cannot increase speed. Acceleration along a trajectory requires an electric field component. So to explain constant acceleration at a specific angle

I'll agree that the Vulkin one might be kinda too weird for VSBW standards (even though I still personally agree with it but that's not the place for it I suppose), but the OP is technically lying about these things not being called electricity. Both Vulkin and Mettaton's electric attacks are called lightning in the game files (something the agreeing part is using through using coding bits), so I cannot see how Toby did not intend for them to be genuine electricity, you can indeed see that there is some intent, especially given that the gamefiles always call the attacks what are they supposed to be (example being Shyren's attacks being notes, and the fire attacks being fire).

Toby intended them to be electric magic, yes.

No one claimed otherwise, we are currently discussing if he intended these magic attacks to be actual lightning speed or not, and given the animation, and all the context surrounding it, I wouldn't say so.

I technically wanna argue that the Mettaton one can still be used as electricity given that magical electricity is all he uses and a clearly stronger version of which was also with a duraneg power against the SOUL was what was blitzing and stunning Frisk, not common electricity. Dismissing it being electricity by using clearly not comparable examples (while still also being magic btw) is kinda dishonest if you ask me.

Regarding the sound bits...

I also do not really agree with using Shyren as a fair comparison. I was always skeptical of that one being sound myself. truth to be told (notes are not sound, after all), but the Bark one has a more grounded basis, given that it is traveling in a linear path in air (something OP did use as a contradiction for Shyren).

As I've already mentioned above here:

The contradictions are not really that good, and besides...

The issue is that the first is just a funny way mess with the game mechanics (the text includes also thoughts, so it's clear that it's something deeper than just that), Napstablook is not even using sound but just making words appear, and the Omega Flowey bit are literally just words from a book, not even spoken ones.

It is clear that the "words" here have different sources and not all are sound, only Greater Dog is. I mean, yeah, Greater Dog is making his barks into attacks, but I think it's meant to be sound rather than whatever other thing that is then made into words that is not sound.

Yeah, it's sound converted into text. Why should we say this text is moving at sound speed if its gained a magical property?

I think the original point basically proved that words can be made out of magic, which casts doubt on the initial assumption.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

if everything has the same source of power and even the OP acknowledged that it has shown the realistic characters of electricity.

The energy from the core is converted from real energy into a magical electricity.
The power from the monsters do not come from the core, and has shown difference in properties in several ways as I've outlined above.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah but there's a significant difference between proving there's some related properties between the two, and refuting the multiple contradictions presented by machine-related electricity, and bullet-hell patterns that accelerate over time.

They still exist, no? Frisk is mechanically unaffected by the identical-looking electricity bullets in battle. If magical electricity and real electricity were behaviorally equivalent in all relevant properties, this distinction shouldn't exist.

I also vouch for the idea that the electricity from the core, despite also being magical to some extent, is fundamentally different from the magic generated from monster ability, as Alphys explicitly stated that the magical electricity from the core is converted directly from geothermical energy, meaning it is based on real energy in the first place, like a Type 1 Civilization, whereas magic generated from monsters has no such transmutation.

That's a very low bar. It says nothing about whether combat-applicable magic attacks that look like electricity obey electromagnetic physics at the particle level. A magic-powered lightbulb glowing is not evidence that a magic bullet accelerating in battle is a charged particle responding to a Coulomb field. These are categorically different claims, and you're conflating them.

There's a literal transmutation pipeline, real physical energy goes in, and the output is grounded in that physical origin. That's why Core electricity behaves consistently with real electricity: it has a real energy basis by design. Monster-generated magic attacks have no such pipeline. They originate purely from monster magic with no stated physical grounding.

The burden is on you to demonstrate that monster magic attacks are also grounded in real physical energy conversion, imo. The game never demonstrates THAT.

I do not really need to do that? The source is not really relevant when its applications are literally the exact same, why do we need literal science lessons in order to even qualify for electricity being genuine? Most magic verses don't do that only because their electric attacks come from mana or whatever, yet them being electricity is still fine.

In-Battle electric attacks, in fact, do not stun Frisk whatsoever. It makes them FASTER in the case of Vulkin.

This only means that the electricity of the tile puzzle is stronger than the in-battle ones, so?

That's fine and all, but what about the fact Alphys deliberately has the same attacks as Mettaton, even uses the exact same code in the game files, and she can stop the attack mid-air and the attack blocks something, implying physicality.

Huh... what? Since when something not physical blocking something means that it's physical? This is a made up standard as quite literally every non corporeal being or energy attack can indeed physically push something in fiction lol. Plus do we forget that magic by itself is not physical? We have a whole section for it in the Monster Physiology after all.

It propagates according to field geometry and dissipates. An attack that freezes in place on command is by definition remotely controlled, which means guided magic, which means the trajectory and acceleration are intentional outputs of the magic, not passive responses to physics.

A character having Light Manipulation being capable of stopping mid-air their light beams does not mean that the light suddenly stops being SoL when fired at full speed, it's common sense Char.

Arguing for the magnetic field is a thing, but they don't accelerate electricity at a constant rate at a specific angle with no natural path. Yes, a magnetic field is involved in real electrical discharge. But magnetic fields do not accelerate charges in isolation, the Lorentz force from a magnetic field acts perpendicular to velocity, meaning it curves paths but does no work and cannot increase speed. Acceleration along a trajectory requires an electric field component. So to explain constant acceleration at a specific angle

I think that this is incomplete, the bolded sentence seems lacking something.

Anyway, I do not agree with this logic as monsters can indeed shape the path their bullets (like Toriel or Asgore despite fire not being supposed to be in coordinated patterns), so him being able to change the trajectory while being focused on being a more efficient attack is indeed a fair assestment methinks.

Yeah, it's sound converted into text. Why should we say this text is moving at sound speed if its gained a magical property?

I did not say that it's converted, I said that it's both given it has quite the different context compared to those other magic attacks. Are you perhaps saying that Frisk does not hear anything because the sound literally becomes the text? I think it's far easier to argue that it's both.

 

[Rodriiogo]

I have quite honestly almost no response, other than what Charmander already outlined.
So I will put it simple and into my words, I don't know how the comparison of the core using geothermal energy to create magic electricity is in ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM, compared to what the monsters' bullet patterns is, which is something that comes from them expressing themselves, as magic itself is something attuned to their soul. It can be meant to look like the real thing because that's how they express themselves, like how Shyren's Magic is connected to their singing despite not being sound so it makes notes from her mouth's singing. The source is indeed not the same at all.

If we are shown that the magical electricity that powers up the actual machines and electricity of the underground has actual properties and is portrayed completely different, the burden is indeed on YOU to prove why they would be in any way equivalent, especially when Mettaton was indeed trying to kill you, the idea that he somehow used a stronger electricity and for some unknown reason, toby decided to portray it different from the actual electricity he wants to be reala is nothing short of just streching the narrative to fit YOUR agenda, especially when, quite frankly how do you explain the fact that the electricity from the pads does not damage Frisk at all yet you're claiming it's stronger electricity than the one that actually does damage Frisk (during the fight).

So, no, it:

• Doesn't have "the same source of power";
• It is portrayed differently from one another;
• Has different properties from another when hitting Frisk (one has actual electricity properties, the other does not and just contains MULTIPLE contradictions).

Nothing correlates the electricity from the pads and the quizz to the ones they use from expressing themselves through magic, it being called a "thunder" by Vulkin and named as lightning in the code is because the whole point of that attack is to be a expression of his self as Vulkin's self is based on a volcano which creates said pyrocumulus clouds (hence the cloud with the smile) that produce lightning, the attack is a expression of Vulkin through that, however nothing indicates it being actual real lightning (and it actually has multiple contradictions for that as I already showed). Mettaton's is also just a expression of his robot self, but this does not mean its actual electricity. This is his "real electricity" which actually gets triggered through his robot body as you fail a question, so you're right, there is a distinction, which would just make YOUR point of the "lightning" attacks being electricity weaker.

(I also wanna note that using the name of the files is VERY different from just using the code to check if something does get faster or not, as that's simply trying to draw a conclusion from smth VS just clarifying it)

For the sound I already gave my counters to that argument righttt heere:

The point is that we do see that shaping magic into words is something usual in-verse (Mettaton's words should still be part of his magic even if it's a fourth wall break) over the assumption of actual sound being used as an attack or somehow mixing with magic? Or do we assume the barks aren't magic and are just actual sound attacks that do not correlate to magic? Regardless, the intended point from those are that text attacks are shown to be possible in-verse, somehow mixing magic with sound itself is not, so the assumption that "It's a bark so it's sound" has a weaker ground/basis in a verse like this especially with the contradictions on said "sound attacks" speed I laid out alongside them not moving realistically.
The point isn't the depiction of the sound, it's how it's traveling/propagating. Shyren's attacks are not moving in a linear line and constant speed like sound should in the air. They are very clearly intended not to be actual sound and are never portrayed as sound speed and only otherwise. It's a contradiction against 0 support other than "It should be".

And mixing this part right here where I already explained that your basis is weak to begin with:

The start of the argument is me clarifying that, as of right now, there is no actual real justification to why the electricity and sound attacks are real other than "Other magic has some properties similar to the real stuff". This means the reasoning to why this is valid is already weakened by default. It's purely an assumption, because of this, anti-feats and anti-showings hold way more value and will be way more significant than, for example, if the electricity actually had electrocuted Frisk and if the sound was actually verbatim called a sound attack. We'd be in a different scenario if that was the case. In this moment, inconsistencies will always hold more value due to the fact that its an Assumption VS Something actually shown. If an anti-feat or "inconsistency" is shown, and there is no "consistency" to begin with, the actual consistency would be the fact that it isn't one, not that it is.

I pointed out the contradictions in a better way and why it would still fully make it useless in this comment right here. Your basis is weak to begin with.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Six seven joke get six or seven pages

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I do not really need to do that? The source is not really relevant when its applications are literally the exact same, why do we need literal science lessons in order to even qualify for electricity being genuine? Most magic verses don't do that only because their electric attacks come from mana or whatever, yet them being electricity is still fine.

You do. You've provided evidence for a completely different source of power with completely different applications.

I really don't know why you keep bringing up other verses with their own arguments and their own evidence as a reason on why we should analyze things in Undertale. We have provided contradictions, difference in behavior, and different applications between monster-generated electricity and core-generated electricity. In fact, we even provided a reason why they'd be different and why one would be more realistic over the other. You can't just not address that.

You cannot use one to prove the other unless you provide evidence of a connection. You haven't, the argument is invalid.

"the sources don't matter"
Oh It absolutely does matter, and here's why, you're the one who introduced the "magical electricity powers things" argument as proof that magical electricity behaves like real electricity.
That argument only holds for Core electricity, which Alphys explicitly said is converted from geothermal energy.
You used one type of electricity to prove a claim about a completely different type, and when we pointed that out, you said "the source is irrelevant".

You can't build your argument on a source distinction and then abandon the distinction when it's turned against you. That's not a rebuttal, that's retreating from your own premise. The burden is on you to demonstrate a connection between monster-generated magic attacks and real electromagnetic behavior, and you haven't. Other verses having their own justifications for their own electricity doesn't transfer here, Undertale needs its own evidence, and you've only provided it for one category of electricity that we've already separated from the one in question.

This only means that the electricity of the tile puzzle is stronger than the in-game one, so?

It deals zero HP to Frisk. Zero. If the argument is "it's just stronger," stronger electricity that deals zero damage is not a stronger version of the same thing, it's a mechanically distinct phenomenon. You're using "stronger" to paper over a categorical difference in behavior.

Huh... what? Since when something not physical blocking something means that it's physical? This is a made up standard as quite literally every non corporeal being or energy attack can indeed physically push something in fiction lol. Plus do we forget that magic by itself is not physical? We have a whole section for it in the Monster Physiology after all.

It's supporting evidence that the monster magic can be unrealistic. Again, using other series as an example won't do any good.

The point was never that physicality alone proves something is realistic. The point is the combination: it stops mid-air on command, it makes a physical impact sound, and it acts as a solid barrier. Any one of those could be waved away in isolation. All three together paint a consistent picture of a remotely controlled magic construct, not a discharged electromagnetic phenomenon.

It makes a plink sound from impact, blocking plants. The fact it's staying still and acts as a physical barrier is unrealistic for electricity. It just is.

A character having Light Manipulation being capable of stopping mid-air their light beams does not mean that the light suddenly stops being SoL when fired at full speed, it's common sense Char.

I'll steelman your analogy as much as I can and it still doesn't work.

A character stopping a light beam mid-air would absolutely raise questions about whether it's moving at light speed, and those questions would be resolved by looking at surrounding evidence. Here, the surrounding evidence goes against you.

For the case of electricity magic:

• It's not a beam.
• It's not light.
• it visibly accelerates in a non-natural pattern (THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM)
• there is zero independent evidence of it ever moving at the natural speed of its real-world counterpart
• This is evidence of control.

You could claim this if we had literally any evidence of this thing moving at natural speed.

The analogy requires assuming the conclusion, that it moves at natural speed by default, and then dismissing the contradictions as inconsistencies. Consistency hasn't been established. You can't invoke "innocent until proven guilty" for a speed feat when the evidence on the table is actively pointing the other way. You're asking us to assume realistic behavior as a baseline while refusing to address why every observable property contradicts that baseline

I think that this is incomplete, the bolded sentence seems lacking something.

I forgot to finish the sentence, oof.

Anyway, I do not agree with this logic as monsters can indeed shape the path their bullets (like Toriel or Asgore despite fire not being supposed to be in coordinated patterns), so him being able to change the trajectory while being focused on being a more efficient attack is indeed a fair assestment methinks.

I appreciate you bringing this up because you've made the argument for me. Yes, monsters control their bullets regardless of the element. That is exactly what I've been saying about the electricity. If Mettaton is controlling the trajectory and acceleration of those bullets then the acceleration is an output of his magical control, not a property of electricity propagating through a field. Controlled acceleration is not natural physics, it's guided magic. You've confirmed the mechanism is control, and control-based movement cannot be used to infer the natural travel speed of the real element.

I did not say that it's converted, I said that it's both given it has quite the different context compared to those other magic attacks. Are you perhaps saying that Frisk does not hear anything because the sound literally becomes the text? I think it's far easier to argue that it's both.

I've always been bad at describing what's on my head, so I'll use bullet points again:

• We currently don't have evidence the "bark" text is supposed to represent sound waves. We assume that.
• We have objective evidence that text can be made out of magic.
• We hear the bark before the text gets to us.

I'm not claiming Frisk doesn't hear the bark, I'm saying they hear it, and a big "bark" text comes at them rather quickly.

 

[StrymULTRA]

So I will put it simple and into my words, I don't know how the comparison of the core using geothermal energy to create magic electricity is in ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM, compared to what the monsters' bullet patterns is, which is something that comes from them expressing themselves, as magic itself is something attuned to their soul. It can be meant to look like the real thing because that's how they express themselves, like how Shyren's Magic is connected to their singing despite not being sound so it makes notes from her mouth's singing. The source is indeed not the same at all.

If we are shown that the magical electricity that powers up the actual machines and electricity of the underground has actual properties and is portrayed completely different, the burden is indeed on YOU to prove why they would be in any way equivalent, especially when Mettaton was indeed trying to kill you, the idea that he somehow used a stronger electricity and for some unknown reason, toby decided to portray it different from the actual electricity he wants to be reala is nothing short of just streching the narrative to fit YOUR agenda, especially when, quite frankly how do you explain the fact that the electricity from the pads does not damage Frisk at all yet you're claiming it's stronger electricity than the one that actually does damage Frisk (during the fight).

They do not have different properties though? Like yeah they're manipulated by monsters then what, do fire and light stop being that if they're manipulated by magic users? Are they not used in the exact same way as normal electricity for also the same reasons?

Your Mettaton point is not that great, I am sorry. I did mention above how monsters like Undyne do have some code of honor and handicap themselves (like she has all the reasons to not give you a spear to defend yourself in the Genocide route, yet she does anyway), and Mettaton wants to entertain his audience, what would he achieve by just keeping to zap us to death using the OP unavoidable beam over and over?

how do you explain the fact that the electricity from the pads does not damage Frisk at all yet you're claiming it's stronger electricity than the one that actually does damage Frisk (during the fight).

Stunning does not mean truly harming, a slap on your face is stunning you but not really damaging you unless it's done by a bodybuilder. It could also just them being too uncomfortable to move past that (like the Pirahnas don't really harm Frisk either but they don't just walk in there).

Nothing correlates the electricity from the pads and the quizz to the ones they use from expressing themselves through magic, it being called a "thunder" by Vulkin and named as electricity is because the whole point of that attack is to be a expression of his self as Vulkin's self is based on a volcano which creates said pyrocumulus clouds (hence the cloud with the smile) that produce lightning, the attack is a expression of Vulkin through that, however nothing indicates it being actual real lightning (and it actually has multiple contradictions for that as I already showed). Mettaton's is also just a expression of his robot self, but this does not mean its actual electricity. This is his "real electricity" which actually gets triggered through his robot body as you fail a question, so you're right, there is a distinction, which would just make YOUR point of the "lightning" attacks being electricity weaker.

I do not have an idea why are you attacking Vulkin when I said that for VSBW standards that is not gonna fly much likely.

However you are literally ignoring the fact that Toby literally called them lightning in the code, was he lying to himself when making that? Plus... you did not really refute my argument, does "real" electricity keep to halve your HP until it reaches one? I'd argue it's just a more powerful and intense application of it given how special it is compared to the standard attacks.

I pointed out the contradictions in a better way and why it would still fully make it useless in this comment right here.

That is for Shyren. Where's the contradiction for Greater Dog?

You do. You've provided evidence for a completely different source of power with completely different applications.

I really don't know why you keep bringing up other verses with their own arguments and their own evidence as a reason on why we should analyze things in Undertale. We have provided contradictions, difference in behavior, and different applications between monster-generated electricity and core-generated electricity. In fact, we even provided a reason why they'd be different and why one would be more realistic over the other. You can't just not address that.

You cannot use one to prove the other unless you provide evidence of a connection. You haven't, the argument is invalid.

"the sources don't matter"
Oh It absolutely does matter, and here's why, you're the one who introduced the "magical electricity powers things" argument as proof that magical electricity behaves like real electricity.
That argument only holds for Core electricity, which Alphys explicitly said is converted from geothermal energy.
You used one type of electricity to prove a claim about a completely different type, and when we pointed that out, you said "the source is irrelevant".

You can't build your argument on a source distinction and then abandon the distinction when it's turned against you. That's not a rebuttal, that's retreating from your own premise. The burden is on you to demonstrate a connection between monster-generated magic attacks and real electromagnetic behavior, and you haven't. Other verses having their own justifications for their own electricity doesn't transfer here, Undertale needs its own evidence, and you've only provided it for one category of electricity that we've already separated from the one in question.

This is literal strawman. I am using other verses as a way to support myself and keep being consistent in fiction and avoid making double standards for Undertale.

I said that the source does not matter because the end product is what matters, and we see that it's indeed meant to be kinda 1:1 with genuine electricity given how it's used and it's compatible with stuff that was supposed to run with normal electricity. I think that's already enough for it to prove that it's meant to be relative.

Making Undertale the only verse where a scientific explanation on why electricity is electricity is unfair ngl.

I'll steelman your analogy as much as I can and it still doesn't work.

A character stopping a light beam mid-air would absolutely raise questions about whether it's moving at light speed, and those questions would be resolved by looking at surrounding evidence. Here, the surrounding evidence goes against you.

I am pretty sure that's not mentioned in the Light standards page ngl.

You could claim this if we had literally any evidence of this thing moving at natural speed.

The analogy requires assuming the conclusion, that it moves at natural speed by default, and then dismissing the contradictions as inconsistencies. Consistency hasn't been established. You can't invoke "innocent until proven guilty" for a speed feat when the evidence on the table is actively pointing the other way. You're asking us to assume realistic behavior as a baseline while refusing to address why every observable property contradicts that baseline

I have not said it's an inconsistency, stop strawmanning me. I am saying that it's not a real contradiction given the context.

I appreciate you bringing this up because you've made the argument for me. Yes, monsters control their bullets regardless of the element. That is exactly what I've been saying about the electricity. If Mettaton is controlling the trajectory and acceleration of those bullets then the acceleration is an output of his magical control, not a property of electricity propagating through a field. Controlled acceleration is not natural physics, it's guided magic. You've confirmed the mechanism is control, and control-based movement cannot be used to infer the natural travel speed of the real element.

I think you're high-key overthinking this. I did not say he's controlling the acceleration, he's controlling the trajectory. I think my post made it clear that the electrical field must be playing a role into this, and the spreading is something made to make the attack more effective.

Yeah, he's controlling them, but there's no reason to think why they're simply not concentrated to make them more effective, he already has showcased the ability to make his electricity faster and stronger while directly aimed at Ftisk in a weaker form after all.

I've always been bad at describing what's on my head, so I'll use bullet points again:

• We currently don't have evidence the "bark" text is supposed to represent sound waves. We assume that.
• We have objective evidence that text can be made out of magic.
• We hear the bark before the text gets to us.

I'm not claiming Frisk doesn't hear the bark, I'm saying they hear it, and a big "bark" text comes at them rather quickly.

The first point is just dumb because barks are literally the sound dogs do lol. The second is still not good as I gave evidence on why the text in question has a different source, thus will have a different nature as an attack (you just repeated that "it can be made out of magic"). And... we do not hear anything? The attack is not something we hear as a sound in the fight (and the OST is quite literally Dogsong, which would make hearing barks kinda hard).

Heck, even in Deltarune, a literal improved version of Undertale we have Spamton NEO using literal sound waves as attacks from his phones, but they also don't make noise in the music when being fired.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

They do not have different properties though?

They have different sources. They have different applications. Rodrigo literally proves so. They are generated by monster souls and are directly affected by their emotional state. Fire and light being manipulated by magic users is irrelevant here because we aren't arguing that monster magic can't produce things that resemble real elements we're arguing that resemblance alone is not evidence of identical physical behavior. A magic fireball shaped like fire doesn't automatically travel at the speed of combustion propagation. You need actual evidence of equivalent physical properties, not just aesthetic similarity. You have provided none for monster electricity specifically.

Your Mettaton point is not that great.

This actually reinforces the point rather than refuting it. If Mettaton is deliberately handicapping himself for entertainment purposes, then the attacks shown in battle are explicitly not a faithful representation of his full capabilities or how his electricity naturally propagates. You're simultaneously arguing that his electricity behaves like real electromagnetic discharge AND that he's intentionally holding back for showmanship. Those two positions undermine each other, if the attacks are theatrical constructs designed for entertainment, they are by definition not natural electricity behaving according to physics. You've just agreed the attacks are performed, not physical.

This is literal strawman

There is no double standard here. The other verses you're citing don't have contradictions standing against them, or they have mountains of independent evidence that justify overriding those contradictions.
Undertale has contradictions. Full stop.

That's not a double standard, that's applying the same evidentiary methodology consistently and getting a different result because the evidence is different. Treating unequal situations equally would be the actual double standard.

And on the end product argument: you cannot claim the end products are identical when we have demonstrated they are not. Core electricity powers human technology and is explicitly stated to be converted from geothermal energy, it has a real physical grounding by design. Monster electricity is generated from souls and emotional state, displays guided non-physical behavior in combat, is reproducible by Alphys with no hardware, and deals damage in environmental contexts where Core electricity doesn't. These are different end products.

You asserting they're the same does not make them the same, especially when we've handed you the evidence distinguishing them. On top of that, even setting all contradictions aside entirely, why would we assume two electricity types with explicitly different origins scale to each other? That assumption requires justification on its own. You haven't provided any.

What Undertale needs is not a scientific dissertation. It needs at least one piece of evidence that monster-generated magical electricity can be assumed to behave like its real-world counterpart. Not Core electricity. Monster electricity. Right now it has zero such evidence and several active contradictions. Every verse that successfully claims speed feats from electricity has either evidence or an absence of contradiction. Undertale has neither.

that's not mentioned in the Light standards page ngl.

Light speed standards exist and have requirements. Electricity speed standards exist and have requirements. Monster electricity in Undertale satisfies none of them. That's not a technicality, that's the entire point of having standards.

not a real contradiction given the context.

Behavior that is physically impossible for real electricity is, by definition, a contradiction against the claim that it is real electricity.

Calling it "not a real contradiction given context" requires you to establish what context justifies it, and you haven't.

"Context" is not a magic word that dissolves contradictions without explanation. If anything, the context we've established, soul-based origin, emotional dependence, Alphys replication, theatrical performance actively supports the contradiction rather than resolving it.

I think you're overthinking this.

Trajectory control and acceleration control are not separable here. An electric field that accelerates particles along a specific one-dimensional direction at a fixed rate is not how electric fields work. Uniform acceleration along a singular axis requires a precisely configured and sustained field gradient that would also constrain the trajectory in physically predictable ways inconsistent with what we observe. You can't isolate the acceleration as "the field doing that" while attributing the trajectory to "Mettaton controlling it", the same field governs both, and neither matches real electromagnetic behavior. Furthermore, you yourself confirmed earlier that monsters dynamically control their bullets. That confirmation closes this off entirely. Controlled acceleration is the output of guided magic, not passive particle physics.

The first point is just dumb because barks are literally the sound dogs do lol.

• "The first point is dumb because of [thing no one denied and that proves nothing either way]"

Yes. The bark is the onomatopoeia of a dog sound. Nobody contested that.

The question is whether the in-game attack represents a literal sound wave or a magic construct shaped like the onomatopoeia of a bark.

Given that we have confirmed in-universe evidence of text being conjured from magic as a direct attack mechanic, and zero confirmed precedent of sound waves materializing as physical damage-dealing text projectiles, the simpler explanation requiring no new assumptions is that it is a magic construct.

The burden is on you to establish it's a sound wave, not on us to prove it isn't.

The second is still not good as I gave evidence on why the text in question has a different source, thus will have a different nature as an attack.

• "Different source means different nature"

Allow me to quote you from earlier in this very thread:

I said that the source does not matter because the end product is what matters

So when it benefits the electricity argument, source doesn't matter and end product is what counts. When it hurts the text manipulation argument, suddenly source determines nature. You need to pick a consistent position. You cannot apply different epistemological standards to the same type of argument depending on which conclusion, it produces an actual double standard.

The point about text manipulation has never been that the source is identical. The point is that text-based magic attacks exist in this universe as a confirmed mechanic. That fact alone is sufficient to make the "it must be a sound wave" assumption unjustified, regardless of which specific character or item produced which specific text attack. The existence of the category is what matters.

Even in Deltarune, a literal improved version of Undertale, we have Spamton NEO using literal sound waves as attacks from his phones, but they also don't make noise in the music when being fired.

• "Sound attacks in Deltarune also make no noise, therefore hearing the bark is irrelevant"

This point doesn't address anything actually said.

But more importantly, this concession is counterproductive to your position. If sound-based attacks in this universe can be deployed without producing audible sound, then the presence of a heard bark before the text attack is not confirmation that the attack is the sound wave itself. The bark and the text attack are separable events. Frisk hears the bark. A magic text construct then arrives as the attack. These are two distinct things happening in sequence, and you've just confirmed that sound and attack are not required to be the same event in this universe.

 

[StrymULTRA]

They have different applications.

Bro decided to just lie for no reason.

They are generated by monster souls and are directly affected by their emotional state. Fire and light being manipulated by magic users is irrelevant here because we aren't arguing that monster magic can't produce things that resemble real elements we're arguing that resemblance alone is not evidence of identical physical behavior. A magic fireball shaped like fire doesn't automatically travel at the speed of combustion propagation. You need actual evidence of equivalent physical properties, not just aesthetic similarity. You have provided none for monster electricity specifically.

But I did. How can you explain the magical electricity having the exact same usage of the actual one to the point of it being compatible with non magical, human technology? You did not give yet an actual refute besides "it's magic and you did not prove that it's the same" then expecting an encyclopedic rundown on what Electricity is. I do not think we need to do that, because otherwise we cannot scale almost anything.

No idea why only Undertale gets this scrutinity, really. Magical Electricity has to work in the same way as the normal one in order to even be used like it.

This actually reinforces the point rather than refuting it. If Mettaton is deliberately handicapping himself for entertainment purposes, then the attacks shown in battle are explicitly not a faithful representation of his full capabilities or how his electricity naturally propagates. You're simultaneously arguing that his electricity behaves like real electromagnetic discharge AND that he's intentionally holding back for showmanship. Those two positions undermine each other, if the attacks are theatrical constructs designed for entertainment, they are by definition not natural electricity behaving according to physics. You've just agreed the attacks are performed, not physical.

You are now making a leap in logic that's just sad. Why would Mettaton just hold back the speed of his attacks for entertainment purposes???? It makes no sense, the only attack that Mettaton has displayed to truly blitz you is the one used in the Quiz Show and that's it, just because he has a form with more ATK it does not mean that every attack has to be the same as it.

I said that Mettaton is holding back attacks that would ruin the entertainment, not holding back as in using strenght (also because the "true electricity" is a super OP dura neg attack, again)

Also blud is acting as if guy still wouldn't fight to the death just to enteriain people when the coliseum existed.

Light speed standards exist and have requirements. Electricity speed standards exist and have requirements. Monster electricity in Undertale satisfies none of them. That's not a technicality, that's the entire point of having standards.

You are not answering my question. I do not see the thing about light speed having its speed manipulated as being a disqualifier for its full speed being SoL anyway in the page, so... that's kinda a nothingburger.

Trajectory control and acceleration control are not separable here. An electric field that accelerates particles along a specific one-dimensional direction at a fixed rate is not how electric fields work. Uniform acceleration along a singular axis requires a precisely configured and sustained field gradient that would also constrain the trajectory in physically predictable ways inconsistent with what we observe. You can't isolate the acceleration as "the field doing that" while attributing the trajectory to "Mettaton controlling it", the same field governs both, and neither matches real electromagnetic behavior. Furthermore, you yourself confirmed earlier that monsters dynamically control their bullets. That confirmation closes this off entirely. Controlled acceleration is the output of guided magic, not passive particle physics.

I indeed can do that. Considering that all of this is yes, magic (no way I am using that point myself), what really stops me from argiung that the fact it's magic just allows MTT to simply have full mastery over it? While it seems a point for you, what I mean is that MTT is simply fully weaponizing everything to make it a concrete attack against Frisk.

My point is that MTT is altering those physics with the magic in making the most optimal of it while still "letting those attacks loose".

The point about text manipulation has never been that the source is identical. The point is that text-based magic attacks exist in this universe as a confirmed mechanic. That fact alone is sufficient to make the "it must be a sound wave" assumption unjustified, regardless of which specific character or item produced which specific text attack. The existence of the category is what matters.

This is not the "gotcha" that you think it is.

Yes, the end result is what matters, but you gotta look at the overall context.

One is a electric bolt that is used by a robot that is ran from the same electricity, with said electricity having the exact same applications of the real electricity.
Another is a text that is associated with sound in what looks like a sound attack, compared from coming from a metafictional text or a book (none of these have nothing to do with something with an actual speed).

I'll just make it simple in what I believe makes this thing different: the magical electricity here has imo that one solid basis to claim it can be compared enough to natural electricity. The words on the other hand do not have because they do not have the same use and overall context that the electricity has and are each used around a completely different theme, making a different approach different, meaning that each of them need to be analyzed on a case-by-case basis.

But more importantly, this concession is counterproductive to your position. If sound-based attacks in this universe can be deployed without producing audible sound, then the presence of a heard bark before the text attack is not confirmation that the attack is the sound wave itself. The bark and the text attack are separable events. Frisk hears the bark. A magic text construct then arrives as the attack. These are two distinct things happening in sequence, and you've just confirmed that sound and attack are not required to be the same event in this universe.

Calling stuff I say "a concession" is annoying given that pretty much tells that I am agreeing with you, I am not.

The thing I have put in italic is just a headcanon, what is the point of making a clear sound-themed attack not sound lol? There is nothing saying that these don't happen at the same time. My point is just because we don't hear them in-game it does not mean it does not in-universe.

Plus it's not uncommon in the Tobyverse that characters can react to sounds before hearing them (unless the sound just reached Susie and then tried to reach Lancer after her lol)

 

[StrymULTRA]

Anyway last post before I have to go to sleep, so gn y'all.

 

[Agnaa]

Ok I am finally home, and I'll say my piece on the electricity stuff.

The main problem is that you're pretty much saying that there is a difference between magic and "real" electricity when... everything in the Underground is ran from Magical Electricity, which would make also all those examples of the Tile Puzzle and Mettaton also cases of magical electricity, especially given that Mettaton himself claims that he's made of Magic and Metal. This is extremely important as Magical Electricity in the Underground has to behave almost the same as the actual one in properties, given that all of Monsterkind's modern technology comes from the trash of the human world, and we all know that humans normally lack magic.

The magical electricity monsters use must be fully comparable in most of the aspects to the actual electricity, given that not only it's used to power up the Underground like one expects normal electricity to do, but also powers up in the same way the technology monsters get from the human world.

I also think that you're heavily making weird nitpicks:

• The Tile Puzzle is supposed to do what? It hits Frisk, but it does not even fully paralyze them like you're claiming, they are still moving a bit between frames before backing off (I took away some frames where they stand still, but they do still move and don't get fully paralyzed). It only stuns them like any other electric attack. Plus they weren't blitzed, how were they supposed to dodge it when it was right at their feet?
• The MTT one seems to be the most glaring, but you're ignoring that it's instead an attack that's actually much weirder than real electricity as unlike the tile that does not even damage Frisk, that attacks always halves Frisk's HP (it's even on his profile). We all know that speed of electricity increases depending from intensity and voltage, hence why Lightning is as fast as it is, so what exactly stops this from being an attack that is simply much stronger than MTT's standard electricity? We know that monsters kinda do follow some inner code of honor (Undyne giving to Frisk one of her spears to allow them defending themselves even in Genocide despite them being a threat to both humans and monsters is an example) which Mettaton also kinda follows given that he wants to entertain an actual audicence that is indeed watching, why would he just spam instant-kill moves on Frisk despite him pretty much wanting them do be dead? We also have the issue of Mettaton EX being implied to consume much more energy than his Box form, which would make using such a strong electric discharge pretty taxing to him.

I am aware that one of the problems OP has brought is Mettaton EX's bolts getting faster as time goes, but...

A magnetic field is pretty much necessary for any electricity discharge to even happen to begin with (how else would it be moving?), even lightnings need one. We have estabilished above that magical electricity MUST be comparable to real one, as otherwise how would you explain literally it powering also human items in a way that one would expect to?

I have always found the contradictions more important than these pieces of supporting evidence. As we should, given our standards:

Therefore lightning is only accepted as such under certain circumstances.

Lightning that has demonstrated at a minimum a few properties that real lightning has, and significantly less properties that lightning shouldn't have, can be considered real.

And other similar standards:

Should there be great evidence in favor of the light being real or lightspeed, a comparably minor showing against it being real can be overruled.

Having backup like you mentioned is the bare minimum, and gets overwritten by the contradictions.

I'll agree that the Vulkin one might be kinda too weird for VSBW standards (even though I still personally agree with it but that's not the place for it I suppose), but the OP is technically lying about these things not being called electricity. Both Vulkin and Mettaton's electric attacks are called lightning in the game files (something the agreeing part is using through using coding bits), so I cannot see how Toby did not intend for them to be genuine electricity, you can indeed see that there is some intent, especially given that the gamefiles always call the attacks what are they supposed to be (example being Shyren's attacks being notes, and the fire attacks being fire).

Because he intended for them to be lightning-themed attacks?

I technically wanna argue that the Mettaton one can still be used as electricity given that magical electricity is all he uses and a clearly stronger version of which was also with a duraneg power against the SOUL was what was blitzing and stunning Frisk, not common electricity. Dismissing it being electricity by using clearly not comparable examples (while still also being magic btw) is kinda dishonest if you ask me.

I think it's unfeasible to treat both the strong, blitzing, stunning stuff with completely different animations, and the little bolts, as both being real electricity. But I'm fine with treating the former as such, and giving Mettaton electricity attack speed for that attack.

Regarding the sound bits...

I also do not really agree with using Shyren as a fair comparison. I was always skeptical of that one being sound myself. truth to be told (notes are not sound, after all), but the Bark one has a more grounded basis, given that it is traveling in a linear path in air (something OP did use as a contradiction for Shyren).

As I've already mentioned above here:

The contradictions are not really that good, and besides...

The issue is that the first is just a funny way mess with the game mechanics (the text includes also thoughts, so it's clear that it's something deeper than just that), Napstablook is not even using sound but just making words appear, and the Omega Flowey bit are literally just words from a book, not even spoken ones.

It is clear that the "words" here have different sources and not all are sound, only Greater Dog is. I mean, yeah, Greater Dog is making his barks into attacks, but I think it's meant to be sound rather than whatever other thing that is then made into words that is not sound.

I just don't think that's good enough to account for the ways it's not sound-like; it does not expand outwards like a wave. Given how the entire thing sound gets its speed from is traveling as a shockwave through the air, if it's not acting like that, we shouldn't give it that sort of speed.

Quite a bit there but I will note that if everything has the same source of power and even the OP acknowledged that it has shown the realistic characters of electricity, i.e. the Tile Puzzle and Quiz, feels like a slam dunk against the OP, unless I'm missing something. Disagree with the downgrade primarily for this reason specifically.

Please reconsider. Our standards are very clear about how we should weigh evidence in these sorts of cases.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Bro decided to just lie for no reason. How can you explain the magical electricity having the exact same usage of the actual one to the point of it being compatible with non magical, human technology?

Nobody lied.
I explicitly separated

• Core electricity (one thing) from
• Monster-generated electricity (another thing entirely)

and explained why they are different.

You brushed it away without engaging with it. You refused to engage in it. You refused to acknowledge the literal smoking gun of the argument.

That is not a refutation, that is ignoring evidence and then claiming the evidence doesn't exist.

The entire body of evidence you have presented for electricity behaving like real electricity is sourced from the Core, which Alphys explicitly states converts geothermal energy into magical electricity. No, ACTUALLY, provide any behavior that originated from monster electricity. Please do it. Just one, go, I dare you.

That is a fundamentally different pipeline from monster souls generating magic attacks. You have not provided a single piece of evidence that connects those two categories. Repeating the claim louder does not constitute proof. The burden is yours, you have not met it, and calling me a liar for pointing that out doesn't change the scoreboard.

Unless you actually fulfill the burden, I will not reply to this again.

No idea why only Undertale gets this scrutiny, really. Magical Electricity has to work in the same way as the normal one in order to even be used like it.

Undertale is not receiving unique scrutiny.

Every verse that successfully claims electricity speed feats has earned it through evidence.

You keep gesturing at other verses as though their conclusions transfer here automatically. They don't.

Those verses did the work. Undertale has not. "Magical electricity has to work the same way" is the claim you need to prove, not a premise you get to assert. You are using the conclusion as the premise. That is circular reasoning and it does not become less circular the more times you repeat it.

You are now making a leap in logic that's just sad. Why would Mettaton just hold back the speed of his attacks for entertainment purposes?

The point is not that he deliberately slows down the attacks for entertainment.
Not the point. Never been the point. Never will be the point.

The point is simpler and more damaging than that: the fact that he has any dynamic control over the attack's behavior at all is proof it is not a natural phenomenon propagating through air.

Real electrical discharge, once initiated, is not subject to real-time modification by the caster. It propagates according to field geometry and dissipates.

If Mettaton can modulate it, speed, trajectory, timing, then it is a guided magic construct, and the natural propagation speed of real electricity is completely irrelevant to it. You don't get to claim the physics of a phenomenon and simultaneously claim the caster has executive control over that phenomenon's behavior. Pick one.

You are not answering my question. I do not see the thing about light speed having its speed manipulated as being a disqualifier for its full speed being SoL anyway in the page.

I'll answer the actual question with the actual standards. From the light page:

• The beam behaves in a reasonably realistic way, such as reflecting off non-magical mirrors or refracting and diffusing through liquids and materials.
• The beam is stated to move at the speed of light by reliable sources.
• The beam is stated to be composed of photons or light itself, by reliable sources.
• The beam originates from a real source of light.

And the disqualifiers include:

• The beam is shown to move at different speeds in the same material.

Monster electricity accelerates at a fixed rate in open air.
That is definitionally moving at different speeds in the same material.
It fails the positive criteria and actively satisfies a disqualifying criterion.

From the lightning page:

"Lightning that has demonstrated at a minimum a few properties that real lightning has, and significantly less properties that lightning shouldn't have, can be considered real."

Monster electricity has demonstrated zero properties exclusive to real lightning and several properties that real lightning cannot have. The standards exist precisely for situations like this. They are not a nothingburger. They are the answer to your question.

What really stops me from arguing that the fact it's magic just allows MTT to simply have full mastery over it? MTT is simply fully weaponizing everything to make it a concrete attack against Frisk.

This argument destroys itself. If Mettaton has full mastery over the magical construct and is weaponizing it with complete control, then the attack's behavior is entirely determined by his magical direction, not by the natural physics of electricity propagating through a medium.

You cannot then use the speed of naturally propagating electricity as a basis for a speed feat, because by your own argument the attack is not naturally propagating. It is being driven by magic. The speed is whatever his magic makes it, which tells us nothing about real electrical discharge speed. You have argued yourself out of the feat you were trying to establish.

My point is that MTT is altering those physics with the magic in making the most optimal of it while still "letting those attacks loose".

You cannot claim alteration of physics when you have not first proven the physics were ever present.

This is the core logical error running through your entire position. You are assuming real electromagnetic behavior as the baseline and then patching the contradictions by saying "magic altered it."

But the baseline was never established.
You need to prove real physics first, then explain deviations. You have it completely backwards. We are not obligated to accept your assumed baseline and then explain why the contradictions don't count. The contradictions are evidence against the baseline existing in the first place.

Yes, the end result is what matters, but you gotta look at the overall context.

The overall context is: soul-based origin, emotional dependence, dynamic caster control, acceleration inconsistent with real discharge, replication by a character with no hardware, zero damage in environmental contexts where Core electricity deals damage, and zero positive evidence of real electromagnetic behavior. That is the overall context. Look at it.

One is an electric bolt used by a robot ran from the same electricity, with said electricity having the exact same applications of the real electricity. Another is a text associated with sound compared from coming from a metafictional text or a book.

The bolded claim is the entire thing you need to prove and have not proven. Quote the evidence.

Not the Core. (It's different)
Not human technology compatibility. (uses the core)

Evidence that monster-generated magic electricity has the exact same applications as real electricity. You cannot use the Core for reasons we have explained multiple times. You keep presenting this as though the argument has support underneath it. It does not. You are asserting the conclusion as evidence for itself.

And on the text attack comparison, the distinction you're drawing is irrelevant. The point was never that all text attacks share the same source. The point is that text-based magic attacks exist in this universe as a confirmed mechanic, which means the "bark must be a sound wave" assumption is not a default, it requires justification. The existence of the category is sufficient to place the burden on you, and you have not met it.

I'll just make it simple in what I believe makes this thing different: the magical electricity here has that one solid basis to claim it can be compared enough to natural electricity.

What is the basis. You have said this multiple times across multiple posts and have never stated what the basis actually is. This is not an argument, it is an assertion that an argument exists somewhere. State the basis explicitly, with evidence, or this carries zero weight.

The words on the other hand do not have the same use and overall context that the electricity has.

The bark text attack has no evidence one way or the other. That is a neutral evidentiary state. In a neutral evidentiary state, the simpler explanation wins, and the simpler explanation is magic construct, because magic text attacks are a confirmed mechanic in this universe and sound waves materializing as physical damage-dealing text projectiles are not. Neutral evidence does not default to your preferred interpretation. It defaults to the simpler one, which is ours.

The thing I have put in italic is just a headcanon. What is the point of making a clear sound-themed attack not sound? There is nothing saying that these don't happen at the same time.

"Sound-themed" describes the aesthetic. It does not describe the physical composition. A water-themed magic attack is not necessarily made of real H₂O molecules. A fire-themed magic attack does not necessarily combust oxygen. Aesthetic theme is not a substitute for physical evidence, and you know that because you've been arguing about physical evidence this entire thread. "It looks like sound therefore it moves at sound speed" is not a standard you would accept for any other attack in this debate, and you should not expect us to accept it here. The theme of an attack tells us what it was designed to resemble. It tells us nothing about what it actually is.

Plus it's not uncommon in the Tobyverse that characters can react to sounds before hearing them.

This is Undertale. We are debating Undertale. Deltarune characters with their own feats, their own scaling, and their own context are not evidence for Undertale characters.

You have made this exact type of argument multiple times and each time it fails for the same reason. You cannot shore up a failing argument in one verse by pointing at a different verse and saying "it happens there." Argue the verse. Present the evidence.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I have always found the contradictions more important than these pieces of supporting evidence. As we should, given our standards:


And other similar standards:

Having backup like you mentioned is the bare minimum, and gets overwritten by the contradictions.

Because he intended for them to be lightning-themed attacks?

I think it's unfeasible to treat both the strong, blitzing, stunning stuff with completely different animations, and the little bolts, as both being real electricity. But I'm fine with treating the former as such, and giving Mettaton electricity attack speed for that attack.

I just don't think that's good enough to account for the ways it's not sound-like; it does not expand outwards like a wave. Given how the entire thing sound gets its speed from is traveling as a shockwave through the air, if it's not acting like that, we shouldn't give it that sort of speed.

Please reconsider. Our standards are very clear about how we should weigh evidence in these sorts of cases.

For some reason, even though we have shown they're different, Strym is using support from the Core electricity, which is a magical electricity converted from real geothermal energy.

I'll outline the difference now:
Core/Environmental Electricity:

• Converted from geothermal energy, has a real physical grounding by Alphys's own statement.
• Powers and is compatible with human technology
• Stuns and paralyzes Frisk on contact, a property consistent with real electrical discharge affecting the nervous system
• Deals zero HP damage despite being more physically potent in application
• Behaves consistently with its source, it is infrastructure electricity, doing what infrastructure electricity does

Monster-Generated Magic Electricity:

• Generated directly from monster souls and affected by emotional state
• Deals HP damage but produces zero stun or paralysis the opposite behavior of real electricity on a biological target
• Accelerates at a fixed rate in a singular direction, physically impossible for natural electrical discharge
• Can be stopped mid-air on command by the caster, real discharge cannot be paused post-initiation
• Reproducible by Alphys with no electrical hardware whatsoever
• Fully subject to dynamic caster control over trajectory and behavior
• In Vulkin's case, actually speeds Frisk up on contact, a property with no analog in real electromagnetism whatsoever, and one that directly contradicts any claim of realistic electrical behavior

The behavioral profiles are not just different in degree, they are opposite in several key properties. The same physical phenomenon cannot both paralyze and accelerate a biological target depending on who cast it.

Based on this, do you think it's fair to use the feats from the Core electricity as evidence for how monster-based electricity works?

 

[SomebodyData]

For some reason, even though we have shown they're different, Strym is using support from the Core electricity, which is a magical electricity converted from real geothermal energy.

I'll outline the difference now:
Core/Environmental Electricity:

• Converted from geothermal energy, has a real physical grounding by Alphys's own statement.
• Powers and is compatible with human technology
• Stuns and paralyzes Frisk on contact, a property consistent with real electrical discharge affecting the nervous system
• Deals zero HP damage despite being more physically potent in application
• Behaves consistently with its source, it is infrastructure electricity, doing what infrastructure electricity does

Monster-Generated Magic Electricity:

• Generated directly from monster souls and affected by emotional state
• Deals HP damage but produces zero stun or paralysis the opposite behavior of real electricity on a biological target
• Accelerates at a fixed rate in a singular direction, physically impossible for natural electrical discharge
• Can be stopped mid-air on command by the caster, real discharge cannot be paused post-initiation
• Reproducible by Alphys with no electrical hardware whatsoever
• Fully subject to dynamic caster control over trajectory and behavior
• In Vulkin's case, actually speeds Frisk up on contact, a property with no analog in real electromagnetism whatsoever, and one that directly contradicts any claim of realistic electrical behavior

The behavioral profiles are not just different in degree, they are opposite in several key properties. The same physical phenomenon cannot both paralyze and accelerate a biological target depending on who cast it.

Based on this, do you think it's fair to use the feats from the Core electricity as evidence for how monster-based electricity works?

It sounds like the differences mostly come from there being an active caster/user of magic electricity, rather than being a different category of magic electricity.

I could be wrong though - is it ever stated that there is a difference? That could help your argument; otherwise, it almost sounds like there is no in-verse distinction.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

It sounds like the differences mostly come from there being an active caster/user of magic electricity, rather than being a different category of magic electricity.

I could be wrong though - is it ever stated that there is a difference? That could help your argument; otherwise, it almost sounds like there is no in-verse distinction.

You categorically ignore everything I've said in the very comment you've quoted.

I feel like nothing I say is getting acknowledged, and it makes me feel like debating is not possible. I've presented a list on how they are different, how they come from different sources ("Emotion/Soul based, Real Geothermal energy based")
How they have different effects.
How one acts unrealistic and one doesn't.

And you come out and say there is no in-verse distinction, all while just brushing off every argument pointing the opposite direction. No explanation on why these differences happen and how we should just assume they are the same.

How is that fair to me in any way?

Your explanation doesn't cover any of the problems. If the only variable is the presence of an active caster then caster-controlled electricity should be a subset of what Core electricity can do.
But that's not what we observe. The behavioral profiles aren't just different in degree or application, they are mutually exclusive. Core electricity never deals HP damage. Monster electricity never stuns or paralyzes. And I'm just repeating myself because that key difference is just ignored, over, and over again. Alphys stating the Core converts geothermal energy is the closest the game gets, and that is a mechanistic distinction given in-universe. The generation pipeline is explicitly different by the game's own text. But frankly the behavioral evidence is strong enough to stand without an explicit statement.

 

[Randomuser3412]

Core electricity never deals HP damage. Monster electricity never stuns or paralyzes.

Well, no matter if we wanna categorize this as CORE or Monster electricity, it still disagrees with your point here, as it does HP damage and paralyzes.

 

[Agnaa]

Based on this, do you think it's fair to use the feats from the Core electricity as evidence for how monster-based electricity works?

I think there are some distinctive traits among them, but I understand why people consider that information relevant. Also, there are also distinctive traits between different instances of monster-based electricity (Mettaton quiz compared to Vulkin).

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Well, no matter if we wanna categorize this as CORE or Monster electricity, it still disagrees with your point here, as it does HP damage and paralyzes.

And speedblitzes Frisk. Please show literally any instance of bullet doing so as that's what we use to speed scale.

Also saying it "paralyzes" is hardly correct, we can't move after we pick an option in any normal scenario.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I think there are some distinctive traits among them, but I understand why people consider that information relevant. Also, there are also distinctive traits between different instances of monster-based electricity (Mettaton quiz compared to Vulkin).

Yeah but if one has all the realistic portray of electricity, while the monster version has all the unrealistic portrayals of electricity while sharing none of the realistic ones, on top of being sources from different sources, then it's fair to ask for proof or not validate the speed scaling imo.

 

[Tarcaver]

And speedblitzes Frisk. Please show literally any instance of bullet doing so as that's what we use to speed scale.

Also saying it "paralyzes" is hardly correct, we can't move after we pick an option in any normal scenario.

That contradicts the logic you've used for the Mettaton quiz electricity speed blitzing Frisk then. If we can't move at all after picking a choice whether it was right or wrong then Frisk wouldn't have been able to move to dodge the electricity regardless, hardly a blitz in that case since we're immobile.