The nuking of Undertale: Part 2 out of 6 or 7 | "Faster than Sound? Not even Faster than a car."

[TheGreatJedi13]

You never proved that btw.
You just said "he is holding back, therefore the attack is non-immeasurable", which is a false conclusion.

It is not. If you do that kind of assumptions. You can basically argue that anyone holding back would use their normal speed, thus scaling characters. In the same vein that Frisk not having enough determination is holding back somehow despite being determined enough to make things right before the confrontation with Asgore and many others. Yet we don't assume them immeasurable because that's common sense

 

[Axorandom0]

Deltarune literally have fire element monsters...they cant exist without "magic"

Ok… we aren’t talking about Deltarune. We’re talking about Undertale. UT Magic ≠ DR Magic

 

[Rodriiogo]

Snip

I'm confused on what's this point doing for the thread?
Frisk is currently accepted at immeasurable speeds when fighting Asriel, for the lightning to literally come from wherever he summoned to the ground before frisk moves an inch (1 frame) it'd mean the lightning is immeasurable aswell. The lightning also has no real properties to be accepted as lightning, if we went by "Asriel is not immeasurable speed here" the lightning would still not be accepted as real MHS+ as they don't fill our requirements for it. I don't know where you even got the assumption of "It's real" from.

And that's indeed Asriel's own magic, he doesn't just use magic he got from monsters and the souls, he develops his own magic after becoming a god, he quite literally summons stars and sabers/swords, who is that from?

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Ok… we aren’t talking about Deltarune. We’re talking about Undertale. UT Magic ≠ DR Magic

Deltarune literally share "magic" with undertale

 

[StrymULTRA]

The attack has to be immeasurable to be Tier 2 and above, dodging the attack is immeasurable, yet you can't grant the character immeasurable attack speed for the feat unless someone else dodges it. It doesn't make sense.

Because Attack Speed is not the same as Combat Speed. We do not give to everyone who is High 3-A Infinite speed by just making an explosion that's infinite sized unless they scale to someone who can react to that.

They have to prove that they can physically react to these things, Smash Bros is Immeasurable for this same reason too while Zen'o not really.

I have no disagreement with immeasurable speed. But to assume a character cannot use a non-immeasurable speed attack when holding back is somewhat a big leap specially when the Fight progression has a clear indicator when the fighter is actually now being serious and not messing around.

Frisk themself is Immeasurable, though. You cannot effectively blitz an Immeasurable character without an attack on that level, as anything lower than Immeasurable should be frozen from that perspective.

Those bolts have to be Immeasurable in order to even be faster than Frisk there.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Yet we don't assume them immeasurable because that's common sense

Not assuming it's their normal speed. A fraction of immeasurable is still immeasurable. And yes, we do assume it's immeasurable because that's logic.

 

[Qurbonboev]

I showed in the thread that they are indeed the ones making the "electricity" attacks faster as Vulkin quite literally says "speed up" when using it and when he gets more excited after you hug him they become even faster, and the fact that Alphys also uses the same attack without it moving at all. (This is all in the thread)

You can modify speed of electricity to be higher, if you increase voltage. There is nothing strange with this.
And you can stop electricity by natural means. Lightning can just stop in its path
You can theoretically make very slow electricity (through things like very low voltage), but it wouldn't be able to cross large distances, and likely wouldn't be able to damage humans properly.
Nothing from this list is proper anti feat

 

[StrymULTRA]

Again, the Fraction statement is for the attack that purged the timeline, not the attack before it

Dude are you saying that Frisk randomly jumps from non-Immeasurable to Immeasurable between Asriel's attacks?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

My guy, electricity exists because of electric fields accelerating charged elements. It's not specific phenomena.

How exactly electric attacks moving faster as time goes is unrealistic? It is expected behaviour from charged particles.

Mettaton can produce electricity from his hands. Default assumption is that he can produce electric field, directly or indirectly

Except we already have evidence that the attacks are controlled remotely via magic and are not travelling naturally.
The argument is: Mettaton's heart produces electricity → it produces an electric field → charged particles accelerate in that field → realistic physics, real speed feat.

Even if every step of that chain were granted, it only applies to Mettaton's attacks, because the electric field would be his heart's field specifically. But Alphys uses the identical attack in the Asriel cutscene. Alphys has no electrical hardware. Alphys has no "heart that produces electricity." There is no electric field present. Yet the attack behaves identically.

The most parsimonious explanation that covers both cases is magic.

Also, no, you claimed the default assumption should be that Mettaton produces an electric field because he produces electricity. But in standard methodology, the actual default assumption is the simplest explanation consistent with all available evidence. When the same attack is reproducible by a monster with no electrical properties, the default assumption is magic mimicking electricity aesthetically, not real electrical physics.

But the truth is, even if we consider physics here, it's still an anti-feat. Charged particles in a uniform electric field accelerate in straight lines along field lines. They don't curve, spiral, or rotate. Mettaton's attacks do exactly that. So even on its own terms, the "electric field acceleration" model doesn't describe what's actually shown on screen.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Dude are you saying that Frisk randomly jumps from non-Immeasurable to Immeasurable between Asriel's attacks?

We are there tho soo yes

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Dude are you saying that Frisk randomly jumps from non-Immeasurable to Immeasurable between Asriel's attacks?

I'm not engaging with their argument anymore, it really seems to be irrelevant to the thread.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Not assuming it's their normal speed. A fraction of immeasurable is still immeasurable. And yes, we do assume it's immeasurable because that's logic.

Someone saying "A Fraction of their power" Doesn't always mean it mathematically, though.

Dude are you saying that Frisk randomly jumps from non-Immeasurable to Immeasurable between Asriel's attacks?

Yes, that's how determination works. Do you assume he is immeasurable before Asriel absorbed all the souls?
Then why didn't he dodge the attacks or save everyone with his determination before flowey absorbed them? In what State did he suddenly shift from non-immeasurable to immeasurable, that isn't contradictory to the narrative point of the scenario. I'd say during the fight when the difficulty started spiking, yet he kept refusing to lose despite it getting harder and harder

 

[Rodriiogo]

I want you to please look at the amount of stretching you are doing just to prove something is real electricity instead of going on what the story says. Ridiculous man.
I showed you that real electricity in-verse quite literally is not only portrayed different but blitzes frisk and actually electrocutes them to the point they can barely move, stop cutting the argument into pieces and read it fully.

You can modify speed of electricity to be higher, if you increase voltage. There is nothing strange with this.

But that's not what it's happenning here, higher voltage would mean higher damage and higher electrocution to Frisk aswell, which mind you, both Vulkin's and Metatton's do none, not even an inch of electrocution or any property of electricity. Pure "we ball" with no properties and multiple contradictions that you have to explain by already making the initial assumption that the premise "its real electricity" is correct.

And you can stop electricity by natural means. Stepped leader of lightning can just stop in its path

That's not what Alphys does, she summons it stopped. Read the thread again or just watch the video again.

You can theoretically make very slow electricity (through things like very low voltage), but it wouldn't be able to cross large distances, and likely wouldn't be able to damage humans properly.

Relevancy? That's why I brought up the fact that Mettaton quite literally wants to kill you. Why would he hold back his voltage during a fight where he wants to kill you but not hold it back in the literal quiz where he admits you were never meant to actually die? Why is the electricity that actually shocks frisk and the real one, portrayed different than his so called "real electricity" attacks during the fight hm?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Because Attack Speed is not the same as Combat Speed. We do not give to everyone who is High 3-A Infinite speed by just making an explosion that's infinite sized unless they scale to someone who can react to that.

They have to prove that they can physically react to these things, Smash Bros is Immeasurable for this same reason too while Zen'o not really.

Yeah, but... still, the attack speed should still be immeasurable, regardless if the user can react to it or not. The attack itself will not be listed as immeasurable unless a third party reacts to it, like the property and speed of the attack, that should come from logic, requires a reaction.

And we should give attacks that are infinite in size the infinite speed rating, which is why I think the standard is weird and self-conflicting. But that's not a jab at the current rating or anything, so we can focus on the thread itself.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Someone saying "A Fraction of their power" Doesn't always mean it mathematically, though.

Yes, that's how determination works. Do you assume he is immeasurable before Asriel absorbed all the souls?
Then why didn't he dodge the attacks? In what State did he suddenly shift from non-immeasurable to immeasurable, that isn't contradictory to the narrative point of the scenario. I'd say during the fight when the difficulty started spiking yet he kept refusing to lose

Can we just say it the player connection with frisk ?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Someone saying "A Fraction of their power" Doesn't always mean it mathematically, though.

I did not say that lol.

Yes, that's how determination works. Do you assume he is immeasurable before Asriel absorbed all the souls?

No, so?

Then why didn't he dodge the attacks or save everyone with his determination before flowey absorbed them? In what State did he suddenly shift from non-immeasurable to immeasurable, that isn't contradictory to the narrative point of the scenario. I'd say during the fight when the difficulty started spiking, yet he kept refusing to lose despite it getting harder and harder

The issue is that Asriel's attacks on-screen are all shown to be on the same speed, them randomly shifting to Immeasurable speed would be clear if they suddenly started to blitz Frisk until they catched up in speed, but this never happens.

Nontheless, the God tiers are not affected by this, so why are you even arguing this at all lol?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Someone saying "A Fraction of their power" Doesn't always mean it mathematically, though.

Prove it isn't. A fraction of immeasurable is immeasurable.

Yes, that's how determination works. Do you assume he is immeasurable before Asriel absorbed all the souls?
Then why didn't he dodge the attacks or save everyone with his determination before flowey absorbed them? In what State did he suddenly shift from non-immeasurable to immeasurable, that isn't contradictory to the narrative point of the scenario. I'd say during the fight when the difficulty started spiking, yet he kept refusing to lose despite it getting harder and harder

You're actively derailing the thread by citing Asriel, whose magic transcends everyone in the underground, and therefore is irrelevant to the CRT about said underground. He literally cannot be used as a frame of reference to determine anything.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Thread already got to two pages out of pure derailing I can't lie, let's calm down.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Nontheless, the God tiers are not affected by this, so why are you even arguing this at all lol?

Again, I'm arguing that the nature of magic attacks is somehow not being qualified as lightning when it can be portrayed as qualifying.
Asriel is just one example under the assumption that these attacks are among the few from the other monster soul that he gained.

Heck, if Flowey Absorbing all human souls somehow didn't make him immeasurable, but his absorbing all the monster souls somehow makes him immeasurable and have lightning-based attacks, it clearly says something regarding how speed works in this verse. So I disagree that we can somehow discredit Magic Lightning not being valid when clearly sufficient capability and proficiency with it can allow one to increase it proportionally to theirs

Prove it isn't. A fraction of immeasurable is immeasurable.

Using a fraction of their power is literally a common verbiose about simply holding back what are you saying

You're actively derailing the thread by citing Asriel, whose magic transcends everyone in the underground, and therefore is irrelevant to the CRT about said underground. He literally cannot be used as a frame of reference to determine anything.

Then put me on disagree on my own argument and i won't pursue it further

 

[MaybeWantsToEdit]

On an unrelated note, I think it's a weird standard.

The attack has to be immeasurable to be Tier 2 and above, dodging the attack is immeasurable, yet you can't grant the character immeasurable attack speed for the feat unless someone else dodges it. It doesn't make sense.

It might have to do with the fact that a lot of feats involving destroying the universe in 1 go is depicted as instantaneous and doesn't have speed as opposed to having Uni+ range, but destroying the timeline over time counts (which I think should be Immeasurable attack speed but ig people forget to add that in profiles?)

Side note but nothing suggests that the suction (of... vague polygons?) is what Asriel was using to the destroy the timeline as opposed to the giant spirit bomb he was building up, which results in the definitive "end" of that attack after it covers the screen, which is unavoidable, so it might not even be Immeasurable speed dodging but pfftftftftpptftpfpftppfpt who said that

 

[StrymULTRA]

Heck, if Flowey Absorbing all human souls somehow didn't make him immeasurable, but his absorbing all the monster souls somehow makes him immeasurable and have lightning-based attacks, it clearly says something regarding how speed works in this verse. So I disagree that we can somehow discredit Magic Lightning not being valid when clearly sufficient capability and proficiency with it can allow one to increase it proportionally to theirs

I think I am getting what you mean.

Are you saying the greater the SOUL Power, the greater the ability to use magic, given we know that magic and souls are intrinsically related due to Napstablook?

Elaborate a bit more here, because this is an interesting point (I'll try to elaborate later when I get the mood).

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I think I am getting what you mean.

Are you saying the greater the SOUL Power, the greater the ability to use magic, given we know that magic and souls are intrinsically related due to Napstablook?

Elaborate a bit more here, because this is an interesting point (I'll try to elaborate later when I get the mood).

Is this relevant to the electricity of lower end monsters being not valid for the fair share of anti-feats and reasons shown? If not, please discuss this elsewhere.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I think I am getting what you mean.

Are you saying the greater the SOUL Power, the greater the ability to use magic, given we know that magic and souls are intrinsically related due to Napstablook?

Elaborate a bit more here, because this is an interesting point (I'll try to elaborate later when I get the mood).

a bit off topic so I'll just DM you in discord

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Is this relevant to the electricity of lower end monsters being not valid for the fair share of anti-feats and reasons shown? If not, please discuss this elsewhere.

Yes it is

 

[StrymULTRA]

Is this relevant to the electricity of lower end monsters being not valid for the fair share of anti-feats and reasons shown? If not, please discuss this elsewhere.

I assume it is given that he said that here lol.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Agree with everything except I think attacks like the dog's barking should be actual sound

 

[Da3ggman]

Hey can we like not talk Asriel and immeasurable speed in the thread that is unrelated to either of those? It’s pure derailment and it’s annoying, shit like this is why no one wants to touch Undertale CRTs, so I think it’d be better to focus on the actual topic at hand.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Agree with everything except I think attacks like the dog's barking should be actual sound

Nha, we should hear TheGreatJedi13

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Hey can we like not talk Asriel and immeasurable speed in the thread that is unrelated to either of those? It’s pure derailment and it’s annoying, shit like this is why no one wants to touch Undertale CRTs, so I think it’d be better to focus on the actual topic at hand.

They are revelant because we can literally can get hit.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Nha, we should hear TheGreatJedi13

Can we not make death threats here, whether ironic or not?

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

I

It might have to do with the fact that a lot of feats involving destroying the universe in 1 go is depicted as instantaneous and doesn't have speed as opposed to having Uni+ range, but destroying the timeline over time counts (which I think should be Immeasurable attack speed but ig people forget to add that in profiles?)

Side note but nothing suggests that the suction (of... vague polygons?) is what Asriel was using to the destroy the timeline as opposed to the giant spirit bomb he was building up, which results in the definitive "end" of that attack after it covers the screen, which is unavoidable, so it might not even be Immeasurable speed dodging but pfftftftftpptftpfpftppfpt who said that

If we accept this Asriel would jump to M-theory level of interpretation

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Can we not make death threats here, whether ironic or not?

They arent death threats we just should hear them.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I stg I read "tear" lol.

MB here

 

[AyOgUyS]

I


If we accept this Asriel would jump to M-theory level of interpretation

Asriel is not related to this. The entire Asriel fight is completely separate from everything else.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Yeah this looks good. I agree with the thread.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Asriel is not related to this. The entire Asriel fight is completely separate from everything else.

They kinda are due asriel using magic

 

[AyOgUyS]

They kinda are due asriel using magic

Said magic is being boosted by the power of the whole underground and six human souls it is absolutely not normal magic in any way now let's drop it and save this for future CRTs.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Said magic is being boosted by the power of the whole underground and six human souls it is absolutely not normal magic in any way now let's drop it and save this for future CRTs.

If frisk can just jump from wall to multiversal Suddenly after being motivated by the monsters

I think it would be normal say magic is affect by desire

 

[Qurbonboev]

Alphys has no electrical hardware

1. She carries with herself her phone. And we know that phones made by her can do more than just texting. Besides, more important point:
2. I am not saying that magic isn't involved here(Mettaton is creature of magic&metal). I am saying that another mechanism is just magic>electric field>electric attack.
3. And yes, there is limit of how slow you can make electricity and be faithful to our case(mainly in matter of distance crossed and damage dealt).

Charged particles in a uniform electric field accelerate in straight lines along field lines.

1. Most big electric fields aren't uniform.
2. Can create non uniform electric fields.
3. When exactly they rotate? They don't here.

both Vulkin's and Metatton's do none

We can't directly observe Frisk body during this

That's not what Alphys does, she summons it stopped

Electricity won't move if there is no suitable target nearby, or is there not enough power.

Relevancy? That's why I brought up the fact that Mettaton quite literally wants to kill you

I think you misinterpreted my argument here.
My argument is that you can't make electricity too slow, otherwise it would be too weak to even be able to pierce human skin. Electric sparks that are too weak to damage humans are already supersonic. Ergo, these attacks are faster than supersonic
(You might as well ignore other parts and respond of only this).

Thread already got to two pages out of pure derailing I can't lie, let's calm down.

Agree. Could you ask some staff members to delete irrelevant comments(related to Asriel stuff)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

LINKS TO THE MAIN ARGUMENTS TO COMPENSATE FOR THE DERAILMENT:​

Strym vs OP and Me

1. OP
2. Strym's first response (Is waiting on the lightning arguments, argues in favor of sound magic)
3. Rodriiogo's response to Strym¹
4. My first response to Strym

Qurbonboev vs Me (Questions one of the electricity anti-feat)

• Qurbonboev's first response (Questions one of the electricity anti-feats)
• My first response to Qurbonboev's
• Qurbonboev's rebuttal to me.
• My second response to him
• Qurbonboev's second rebuttal
• My third response to him
• Qurbonboev's third rebuttal
• My fourth response to him
• Qurbonboev's fourth rebuttal

I believe everything else in the thread doesn't conver anything related to OP, or are just messages of agreement.