UNDERTALE/DELTARUNE [shiny new] DISCUSSION THEAD

[Eden_Warlock99]

Does 7-B come from Miss Mizzle's storm or wha

We do just put an arbitrary line between the CH4 Fun Gang and the rest of the game when they're not shown to be all that much stronger.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

When?

To be clear, the fact we're using dream-altered magic effects as their realistic counter parts for speed is already a big no for me because it's REALLY inconsistent with everything.

Blitzed by bullets.
Nevermind, I thought the rimshot was a shockwave. Nevertheless, they still get tagged by sound attacks in this chapter, there's no real reason to consider one realistic over the other.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Does 7-B come from Miss Mizzle's storm or wha

Titan scaling I think

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Blitzed by bullets.

I say we shouldn't take the fantasy land bullets as being comparable to IRL bullets, especially since Susie just like has a blatant Supersonic feat in CH1.

 

[SnakesCity]

stuff like the infamous MTT leg attacks have been interpreted outside of powerscaling circles as him actually throwing magic leg constructs (Like in Inverted Fate).

Howdy folks I'm back from a brief hiatus While on my little break I've been thinking about this because I also thought the notion of "he's just summoning multiple legs" to be a little silly but then I remembered outside of a few instances the vast majority of bullets you see in the battle box/bullet board are treated as literal. Papyrus' bones being a strong example but also there's stuff like Aaron literally sweating bullets, the Undyne fight, the fact that bullet patterns are very much a real in-universe thing via things like the one book in the library or Alphys mentioning there being mandatory classes to learn bullet patterns.

I kinda bought into the argument at first when it was brought up but I do now think it's simply an argument from incredulity.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Nevertheless, they still get tagged by sound attacks in this chapter, there's no real reason to consider one realistic over the other.

Which one?

Titan scaling I think

Do Rudinns scale to?

Also, Jevil vs Spamton?

 

[StrymULTRA]

So there isn't a new piece of evidence, is what I'm hearing?

Also, nope. The reason my previous CRT to debunk it didn't go through is literally because people in that thread disregarded the Japanese translation despite it being the strongest counterpoint to the current interpretation.

Either way, I'll be waiting when that CRT is made in the near future.

I hope to not go in a petty bickering here, so this is my last piece of it, but as I said, I am indeed aware of that, I made a whole blog on why the Japanese version has to be used, and I do not find your ways to interpret the wording in said language any convincing.

This entire thing revolves around semantics, and all on the same base idea on how to interpret that one sentence.

It doesn't matter. I don't care about the actual rating, but the accuracy of the cosmology should be fixed nonetheless.

This is true, I did not say anything different.

ok but we all agree 4-A deltarune should go

You just lost 3000 rizz.

 

[StarShooter80]

Does 7-B come from Miss Mizzle's storm or wha

Scaling to the Titan, which scales to the fountain creation feats, which are currently baseline 7-B, possibly 4-A

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I say we shouldn't take the fantasy land bullets as being comparable to IRL bullets, especially since Susie just like has a blatant Supersonic feat in CH1.

It's subsonic.
Also, I agree.
But why is the lightning that moves like a snail considered real lightning then? The magic fantasy land lightning and sound notes, that were altered by the vision of the Knight, are hardly comparable to irl.

Which one?

Saxophone dude.

Do Rudinns scale to?

Also, Jevil vs Spamton?

No idea. The inclusion of Ch 1 enemies in Chapter 3 is terrible for scaling.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I hope to not go in a petty bickering here, so this is my last piece of it, but as I said, I am indeed aware of that, I made a whole blog on why the Japanese version has to be used, and I do not find your ways to interpret the wording in said language any convincing.

Not trying to bicker, we're all adults here.

The specific wording of the English phrase was crucial to the interpretation. That wording is entirely absent in the equally canon JP version. Do I think it's silly that Toby used "starting" to refer to "resuming"? You bet I do. But still.

Plus, if it doesn't matter, there's no real reason for push back on this.

This is true, I did not say anything different.

Fair enough then.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

But why is the lightning that moves like a snail considered real lightning then? The magic fantasy land lightning and sound notes, that were altered by the vision of the Knight, are hardly comparable to irl.

Lightning standards are pretty lax Ig
Like Pizza Tower was MHS+ for a while, ya know, the game where the super speed mode is called "Mach Speed" lol

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Lightning standards are pretty lax Ig.
Like Pizza Tower was MHS+ for a while, ya know, the game where the super speed mode is called "Mach Speed" lol

We got to nip it in the bud and don't let UT/DR abuse these standards. I'm doing one thing at a time with DR.

 

[Qurbonboev]

We got to nip it in the bud and don't let UT/DR abuse these standards. I'm doing one thing at a time with DR.

DR doesn't have anything accepted as lightning, you know?

 

[StrymULTRA]

The specific wording of the English phrase was crucial to the interpretation. That wording is entirely absent in the equally canon JP version. Do I think it's silly that Toby used "starting" to refer to "resuming"? You bet I do. But still.

I do think you're seeing things as too literal here. The current cosmology blog has a whole sub-blog linked to it argiung that timelines "stop" as in actually freezing (like when a file stops being used entirely when you make up a new one by using "save as" and move on there) when the user of the SAVE moves in the new one.

There is only one timeline that is actually "moving", but the rest is quite literally suspended, that's pretty much how I interpreted it.

But why is the lightning that moves like a snail considered real lightning then? The magic fantasy land lightning and sound notes, that were altered by the vision of the Knight, are hardly comparable to irl.

It's not treated as lightning but Mach 1.6 Electricity.

No idea. The inclusion of Ch 1 enemies in Chapter 3 is terrible for scaling.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

DR doesn't have anything accepted as lightning, you know?

The last comment was more about my general plans with DR CRT, Undertale is the one currently abusing lightning standards.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

DR doesn't have anything accepted as lightning, you know?

Thought the lightning from Elnina's cloud is accepted as lightning?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

The last comment was more about my general plans with DR CRT, Undertale is the one currently abusing lightning standards.

Actually that's gone too with the 9-B downgrade, Vulkin doesn't have the AP to make lightning anymore.

 

[SnakesCity]

The specific wording of the English phrase was crucial to the interpretation. That wording is entirely absent in the equally canon JP version. Do I think it's silly that Toby used "starting" to refer to "resuming"? You bet I do. But still.

Plus, if it doesn't matter, there's no real reason for push back on this.

Technically everything matters if we do want to be accurate, even stuff that doesn't matter. With the wording being absent in the JP translation...the standard english version is still the main way the game is meant to be played and experienced, even with the JP translation being overseen by Toby I do not see why it would take priority over the original language the game is in. It's best used as secondary evidence IMO.

 

[Arceus0x]

Never liked 4-A. Probably the one thing I'll come to support getting axed, I was arguing against it (offsite) since day 1.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I do think you're seeing things as too literal here. The current cosmology blog has a whole sub-blog linked to it argiung that timelines "stop" as in actually freezing (like when a file stops being used entirely when you make up a new one by using "save as" and move on there) when the user of the SAVE moves in the new one.

There is only one timeline that is actually "moving", but the rest is quite literally suspended, that's pretty much how I interpreted it.

I see. I'll definitely check the blog out and give it a closer read then

It's not treated as lightning but Mach 1.6 Electricity.

I'd still argue it's wrong and it's just magic bolts controlled remotely in a pattern, not, you know, the material travelling through air. Either way, not changing that now

Unfortunately true

 

[StrymULTRA]

Technically everything matters if we do want to be accurate, even stuff that doesn't matter. With the wording being absent in the JP translation...the standard english version is still the main way the game is meant to be played and experienced, even with the JP translation being overseen by Toby I do not see why it would take priority over the original language the game is in. It's best used as secondary evidence IMO.

It's not that, Charmander is not saying that "it takes more priority" or that it retcons the english version, he just is saying that it supports his interpretation of that dialogue.

No one is denying that if the Japanese version is deemed contradictory to the English one in some instances we give precedence to the latter,

 

[SnakesCity]

It's not that, Charmander is not saying that "it takes more priority" or that it retcons the english version, he just is saying that it supports his interpretation of that dialogue.

No one is denying that if the Japanese version is deemed contradictory to the English one in some instances we give precedence to the latter,

Ah. My apologies to Charmander then for misunderstanding.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Technically everything matters if we do want to be accurate, even stuff that doesn't matter. With the wording being absent in the JP translation...the standard english version is still the main way the game is meant to be played and experienced, even with the JP translation being overseen by Toby I do not see why it would take priority over the original language the game is in. It's best used as secondary evidence IMO.

Both reflect his vision perfectly, though.
The wording of "starting" changing to "resuming" in JP must mean that "starting" was supposed to have that meaning.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Actually that's gone too with the 9-B downgrade, Vulkin doesn't have the AP to make lightning anymore.

Rodri the goat...

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Feels weird to scale a normal Darkner to the thing that gives them and their entire world form. Logically, a single Darkner can't be equal to an entire Fountain, they're just one speck of a whole Dark World. Gerson and Ralsei are notable exceptions though, but they're both not normal Darkners

 

[SnakesCity]

Both reflect his vision perfectly, though.

I believe there is something inherently lost between translation no matter good it is but that is a personal opinion on the nature of localization more than anything, so I believe we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

I have Theory that titans are universal due the fact they are dead timelines

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Never liked 4-A. Probably the one thing I'll come to support getting axed, I was arguing against it (offsite) since day 1.

I personally believe we will see a legitimate Tier 6 or 5 feat by Chapter 7. Or even Tier 2 depending on how it develops.

I'd really prefer if the Titan didn't scale to its entire internal dimension, since the energy created inside a dark world, from an outside perspective, is in a lesser reality.

A dark world can be city-sized in its own layer of reality, but in real life, it's still the same size as a room, and the room is obviously not containing a city. The same applies if a titan makes a dark world inside itself, from the outside, it's obviously not city sized, it doesn't have to contain an actual city from its perspective.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I believe there is something inherently lost between translation no matter good it is but that is a personal opinion on the nature of localization more than anything, so I believe we will just have to agree to disagree.

That is also wrong because Toby Fox has obsessively checked through every single line of text of the JP version multiple times to make sure that his vision is accurately displayed.

It's also why the entire work took 8 month instead of just 2 like the average fan translation patch.

 

[Arceus0x]

Feels weird to scale a normal Darkner to the thing that gives them and their entire world form. Logically, a single Darkner can't be equal to an entire Fountain, they're just one speck of a whole Dark World. Gerson and Ralsei are notable exceptions though, but they're both not normal Darkners

It's more so about the constant output, unleashing 7-B energy endlessly and constantly. Titan can output some attacks on that level, not to mention he is born from 5 fountains, but those who scale from him would only have part of that output and could only unleash it to a limited degree.

Don't know how to feel about 7-B Tenna, I am tentative on that one.

 

[SnakesCity]

That is also wrong because Toby Fox has obsessively checked through every single line of text of the JP version multiple times to make sure that his vision is accurately displayed.

It's also why the entire work took 8 month instead of just 2 like the average fan translation patch.

Hence why I say it's a personal opinion rather than objective fact, I know how much time and care Toby put into the translation.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I believe there is something inherently lost between translation no matter good it is but that is a personal opinion on the nature of localization more than anything, so I believe we will just have to agree to disagree.

Fair enough. I think that applies to complicated concepts. There is no absence of the word "starting" (meaning "to begin") in Japanese. If he didn't use it, it's definitely intentional.

Because a JP translator seeing Sans dialogue, would translate "starting" as the equivalent word, so the change likely comes from Toby's orientation itself.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Feels weird to scale a normal Darkner to the thing that gives them and their entire world form. Logically, a single Darkner can't be equal to an entire Fountain, they're just one speck of a whole Dark World. Gerson and Ralsei are notable exceptions though, but they're both not normal Darkners

The Fun Gang's powers also originate from the fountain and they're like 9-B without it, yet they still slapped the Titan.
Ralsei and Gerson also being special Darkners doesn't really explain how, in the latter's case, they're just stronger than the source of their powers.

Actually we also have a precedent for this too with the Titan Spawn having stats higher than the Titan's (200 DEF vs 40 ATK)

 

[StrymULTRA]

A dark world can be city-sized in its own layer of reality, but in real life, it's still the same size as a room, and the room is obviously not containing a city. The same applies if a titan makes a dark world inside itself, from the outside, it's obviously not city sized, it doesn't have to contain an actual city from its perspective.

This whole stuff is why Verse Equalization actually exists, otherwise we get stuff like 10-C Kirito or 11-C OMORI given that these all happen within fictional settings, but they take part of 90% of the story so discarding their feats for the lols kinda kills the fun of it.

If we take this logic literally, then the Dark Worlds are 11-C given they're nonexistent illusions, but even that doesn't really work given the whole deal with Berdly and Tenna getting damage in also the Light World if they're hurt to a fatal degree in the Dark World (can't really get physically harmed from your imagination after all).

I saw that as more like something akin to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber in Dragon Ball, if you get what I mean.

 

[SnakesCity]

If we take this logic literally, then the Dark Worlds are 11-C given they're nonexistent illusions, but even that doesn't really work given the whole deal with Berdly and Tenna getting damage in also the Light World if they're hurt to a fatal degree in the Dark World (can't really get physically harmed from your imagination after all).

FACT: Berdly just pretends to be injured to get people to feel bad for him

 

[Randomuser3412]

Toby was outed as chud racist, who makes games exclusively for Aryans and Honorary Aryans. Now UTDR is problematic media that shouldn't have fandom.

I'm sorry -- Is this sarcasm? I really can't tell

 

[GodlyCharmander]

This whole stuff is why Verse Equalization actually exists, otherwise we get stuff like 10-C Kirito or 11-C OMORI given that these all happen within fictional settings, but they take part of 90% of the story so discarding their feats for the lols kinda kills the fun of it.

If we take this logic literally, then the Dark Worlds are 11-C given they're nonexistent illusions, but even that doesn't really work given the whole deal with Berdly and Tenna getting damage in also the Light World if they're hurt to a fatal degree in the Dark World (can't really get physically harmed from your imagination after all).

I saw that as more like something akin to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber in Dragon Ball, if you get what I mean.

Oh yeah.

But verse equalization only really applies to crossbattles. You can't really use that for scaling the verse itself, I don't think.

When profiles are made, yes, we consider the reality they are in as the frame of reference for feats.

But we cannot say the relationship between these realities in canon fall under verse equalization. Does that make sense? Because, yes, to the light world, the Dark World is a 11-C reality.
Like, this is true, right? It's how the relationship works, that holds true. We classify the Dark World as 7-B from its perspective. Technically the light world is, like, Low 1-A from their perspective. Or something like that-

So that's the point I'm making, from the titan's perspective, since the dark world exists in a lesser version of reality inside of it, it's containing another layer of an 11-C reality (from its perspective), it's only 7-B if you enter the fountain. Which is why I think scaling to its internal size doesn't work for the Titan, from its perspective, the reality it holds is imaginary.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Explaining why titan are universal in nature in few facts

1 Whem the player dies the world is covered the "world" is covered un darkness if choose to gave up

Meaning darkness is already associated with time

2 darkness is literally connected with the unconcius since they bring memorys and traumas to reality (egg man), inside these spaces exist save point Meaning they are actual places them just "a dream"

3 echidna literally is connected to the titan and is tool who create all monsters (and darkners).

4 a dark world increase your magic.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I forgot to address Tenna and Berdly, I'm a fraud, gah!

 

[Rodriiogo]

The Mettaton box calc got 9-A, even if it does get the speed in a way I disagree with

Next thread is hopefully gonna shutdown the whole idea behind that calc anyways.

Apart from me hating the god tiers scaling, I really hate how both Undertale and Deltarune is trying to run it's whole rest of the scaling via abusing Kinetic Energy in (frankly) wrong speeds anyways.