[Bleach] Shinigami, except Ichibei does NOT have EE buddy 😭💔 (Thread accepted)

[ItsMeat]

So, what are the conclusions here? Has the staff already given their opinion?

Only one staff member has given an opinion so far. Tbh, even what I'm discussing with Joe is mostly repetitive stuff, so unless he's gonna bring something new, I seriously believe the reply I just gave to the debate should be the last one so the staff members don't waste any more time reading trough yap and just decide what they agree with

 

[Deceived3596]

I'm surprised this thread is still ongoing. If there hasn't been any recent interaction from moderators, I don't think large back-and-forth discussions will help with that. If anything, it might be best to compile all points into a single post and concisely explain yinz position on it. After that, request some mods to comment and wait for their evaluations. If everything goes well, the thread should be done in a couple days, give or take.

 

[Billybobjoe321]

Spoiler

Ofc they don’t change his words, they were never meant to say what you believe they say, that's all.

I am quite literally quoting his words

And I have told you already you're mixing 2 different things? Heck, I explained all these.

And I have told you already I am not. I am not concerned with how he came to the conclusion that it was quincies. What I and the OP are talking about is the specific statement about how ONLY quincies are capable of erasing hollows from existence

I love how once again, you are ignoring the context and the lines right above that:
Akon asks about the identity of the culprit and mayuri says "Isn't it obvious?" Short pause "To be able to erase the very existence of hollows…" Short Pause "They are the only ones!". Mayuri is clearly replying to Akon's question.

I never claimed Mayuri was not replying to his question. That is also irrelevant to my point. You are ignoring that he says “They are the only ones” in reference to what he says right before. Am I crazy for looking at the statement of “To be able to erase the very existence of hollows they are the only ones” and being able to derive the meaning of “they are the only ones able to erase the very existence of hollows”? You do understand dislocated clauses, right?

No? I simply believe you conveniently ignore context in order to draw wrong conclusions out of Mayuri's words and then act as if that's a debunk to all other shinigami ee in the verse simply because your interpretation of his words contradicts the other canon statements, feats and narrative implications which should already ring some bells and tell you to think again, but it seems it doesn't, for whatever reason.

There is no context I am ignoring that would change the meaning of Mayuri’s statement. Him responding to a question or the amount of hollows being erased is not something that has to do with what I am talking about. Mayuri does not mention those factors in his statement about quincies being the only ones.

Tosen is no longer a member of Gotei13 by that time.

Yeah, that’s why I said technically

Or perhaps that they purposely not use that on hollows whatsoever due to them knowing the dangers of erasing hollows?

That wasn’t really my line of thought there. I wasn’t saying “If haien is ee, then why don’t soul reapers use it on hollows often?” My point there was that if haien exists as ee and is something multiple soul reapers have, then that would make a statement like saying quincies are the only ones able to erase hollows from existence contradictory.

Explain it.

Looking at the punctuation and using machine translation (though it isn’t always accurate) the translation in the OP aligned more with the original manga than the one you provided. Either way, both translations imply the same thing.

It is relevant to the op and these are all arguments that haven't been refuted.

What? Do you know what you were replying to here? I asked how you questioning how Mayuri came to his conclusion is relevant to the thread because no other argument in this thread really even cares about that.

It is relevant to the op(heck, it's one of the most relevant args so far, as it nullifues the main arg of the op) and it's my arg. I appreciate the fact you admit your args(which only try to refute mine, that's how this discussion between you and me started) have no relevance to my arg though.

How does it nullify the relevant arguments? The relevant arguments are based on the statement he says and not the conclusion he comes to from it.

Because I swear it sometimes feels like you’re playing dumb on purpose. And purposely ignoring the numerous times when I said it, per your own claim that "Nobody's questioning how he came to the conclusion that it was quincies", meanwhile I already did that.

You still haven’t explained how it’s fallacious btw. I am not purposely ignoring anything you are saying. You are the only one questioning how Mayuri came to his conclusion. Nobody else in this thread is questioning that, and it’s pretty irrelevant to the current arguments because of that.

Yes, you are. You do it again right now:

I am taking Mayuri’s statement about them being the only ones, and applying that to the previous line he was referencing with it.

Once again, you are ignoring several contextual aspects:
1. Akon's question about the identity, which is what mayuri replies to with "They are the only ones!"

Mayuri does not directly and only reply to Akon’s statement with “They are the only ones” what you are doing here is what you are accusing me of doing, ignoring the context of the statement. Now apply that “They are the only ones” statement to the context of what Mayuri said right before that.

2. The fact that this "To erase the very existence of hollows…" is merely a clue.

You keep saying that, but that is what Mayuri attributes “They are the only ones” directly to.

They were still not sure about the identity of the culprit despite 28k souls being erased. It took the equivalent of 28k souls for someone to even take action(which wasn't authorised yet, btw).

Where are you getting that they weren’t sure about the identity of the culprit? They only question anything about the culprit because quincies were thought to be almost all extinct. The erasing of the hollows was also happening incredibly fast.

Btw, speaking of mayuri mobilising squad 12 in order to eliminate those souls, the original kanji do, once again, translate as erasure( I knew i forgot something when listing those statements and narrative implications)

Can you get a translation helper to translate that? No official translation of my knowledge translates that as erase, and wasn’t it already argued previously in this thread that Mayuri only killed them?

and the only thing left from those guys were the footprints from where they were gathered. That's basically how he did combat the erasure of 28k souls in wotl, fixing the balance via erasing 28k souls in soul soviety.

Only footprints being left behind really don’t add any further justification for them being erased. We don’t knkw how they were killed or even if they were killed on that spot.

It happened in the context, but would you say a hollow being blown up with hado 33, for example, isn't destroyed? The other captains didn't know what he meant trough destruction.

Can you prove that claim that the other captains didn’t know what he meant by destruction? And he later further clarifies by saying their souls were extinguished.

1. To extinguish≠to erase.
2. Unlike the other sentences where he does take short breaks to let the captains process the information, he doesn't let them time to process this and directly continues saying they must have already realised it's quincy.

To extinguish their souls would though would be. As that’s what quincies do and that’s what leads to a soul imbalance.

That erasure isn't a clue leading only to quincy. However, the 3 clues he gave the captains, "destruction of Hollows", "large numbers" and "in the Worlt of The Living" do mean it's the quincy. The form of destruction alone isn't enough clue to tell it's the quincy.

That erasure isn't a clue leading only to quincy. However, the 3 clues he gave the captains, "destruction of Hollows", "large numbers" and "in the Worlt of The Living" do mean it's the quincy. The form of destruction alone isn't enough clue to tell it's the quincy.

I’ll respond to both of these at the same time. If the erasure or destruction or whatever was not a clue then why would it even be mentioned in the first place? Both times right before Mayuri refers to quincies in reference to the hollow erasure he specifically mentions erasure.

Once again, he doesn’t say only quincy can do that. He says only quincy can be the culprit. The ability to erase hollows is a different story.

Not true. You say the ability to erase hollows is a different story but that is what he specifically mentions before saying that “they are the only ones”

And right before that, he is asked about the culprit's identity. And even before that, he received all the necessary clues: mass destruction of hollows in WoTL.

Yeah, I never disregarded that. But he never mentions any other clues besides the ability to erase hollows when he explains to Akon why quincies are the only ones.

Due to the many versions of the manga, I decided to quote the anime, which is more canon.

Which both follow the same context in this scenario. Mayuri’s statement is just phrased a little bit differently.

Which I think is a very bad translation(possibly done on purpose by the translator) considering the word only is part of the last sentence in that scene, in both various manga translations and in the anime.

I’m pretty sure that is an official translation, and other translations have the exact same implications.

Already adressed this. You want the anime scans?

I can look at the anime myself. I have even directly quoted it multiple times in this thread.

And you are ignoring what he says before those separate lines.

I never do.

Why would he mention what he had right infront of his eyes?

By that logic it makes no sense for him to even mention hollows at all.

Wrong. Again, for God's sake, when explaining to the other captains, who knew nothing, he gives them 3 clues and none of them is erasure, although he mentions destruction.

I was referring to the scene with Akon

Yes, the only ones for whom all the clues he had apply. The only ones who could be the cluprit.

With the only clue he accentuates is the ability to erase hollows from existence.

The wiki accepting as ee attacks that leave things behind as long as they eradicate the existence is an example and I literally presented the same scans you did in our debate.

And these attack do not have a strong enough case for being ee. That is the whole problem.

The only clue he mentions in refference to the culprit is indeed the erasure of hollows. But that's because he had every clue needed right infront of him. Why would he repeat everything the screens already told him? And they are the only ones reffers to Akon's question, ot to the erasure thing. Already explained this

Then why would he even mention the ability to erase hollows from existence? According to you it isn’t a clue

Then, tell me what you didn't understand

That’s what I am telling you in all of my replies

Tell me one argument against soi fon's from the op that I ignored.

“ Plus the wording is, like for Zanka no Tachi: East, not necessarily indicative of Existence Erasure either, as someone "disappearing without a trace" is super vague.”

It still is a clear statement about a shinigami(although an absurdly powerfull one repeatedly stated to have transcended the shinigami race and have unparalleled powers even back in the soul society)erasing the existence of 100k souls

But it still does not really contribute to your argument at all.

It's literally stated to have happened so and your only arg against it that isn’t based on the misinterpretation of mayuri’s words is that we don't see it, which literally supports the erasure thing btw.

We are currently debating about whether it is ee or not, yes? So that means you cannot use the basis of, “it’s ee” within your arguments here, because that is what you are arguing for in the first place.

So? It's still ee. One that both Aizen and Yamamoto(who also knows how to create the oken) have. Would you say they don’t have ee?

But how does it support any of your current arguments?

When did you reply to the hakai parallel?

I don’t need to. Not only is db irrelevant to this thread, but I never stated that ee can’t leave anything behind.

And I literally told you to read the 3rd page of this thread again… I refuted all that

Okay then, can you re-explain how orihime’s healing points towards haien being ee?

Now I wonder if you actually read those scans. Last line before we return to the current situation in Muken.

Do you know what scans you are referring to here? You were said aizen mentioned ee when talking about orihime’s abilities.

The wiki doesn't really treat things this way and I did just link such an example

That’s because they cannot definitively say any character has a hado they have not used. But it would be illogical to say that tosen is the only one capable of using haien.

Then, if you argue that's the case just because that's a possibility, congrats, that's your average appeal to possibility.

You know what an appeal to possibility is, correct? Stating something is a possibility is not an appeal to possibility. I am arguing against you stating that there was nothing left of grimmjow’s arm in the manga without sufficient proof.

I'm a bit confused by what you mean here… Disregard the "possible" part from Aizen's passive ee that you mentioned earlier? Yeah, I do that.

Yeah? That’s what I said.

You literally see them slowly shrinking although everything is shown far slower than in reality, let alone far far slower than those characters would perceive

It looks like to me that they are just moving away from the pov

Anime which is made strictly after the manga and with kubo's indications. In the manga we don't see the full erasure process, but the anime does show it, implying this is what Kubo wanted to share. After all, Luppi's statement about grimmjow's arm being actually erased came 6 months after tosen erasing it and the arrancar arc is famous for the large amount of fillers the anime had in order to give kubo time to draw and write more manga chapters which points towards the fact kubo simply told them the arm was erased rather than them learning it from the manga. Either way, we do see the flames engulf the arm instantly in both anime and manga and we see nothing left from it.

Can you provide sufficient proof that anime only additions would be considered canon in this scenario by the rules? And you have yet to prove that there is nothing left of it in the anime.

Ok, so if you're not arguing for it that's fine.

Yeah, I am arguing that you can’t argue that there wasn’t anything left behind without sufficient proof.

This is called Burden Shifting, the BoP always lies on the person making the affirmative claim that there’s something left behind. My claim is the negation of that claim.

Your claim that there was nothing left behind would also need sufficient proof.

To put it simply for you:
1. You argue his arm was not erased because we don't see it
2. Or you don’t make a point at all here.

That is a false dilemma. I am arguing that you need proof before you can claim there was nothing left of grimmjows arm in the manga

Still far from enough to erase all those hollows in such a short time. And again, only 3 of them were in WoTL at that time

I am not concerned with the amount of hollows or timeframe. Nothing in my argument relies on that.

No, you're not. I am. And you are the one who started this discusiion by replying to me when I brought this up.

I know.

The scans from the op used for "narrative intent that only quincy erase hollows" arg do use the parallel between the way shinigami deal with hollows(purrifying them with their zanpaktos) and the way quincy do(erasing them with their arrows) as a reasoning for shinigami somehow being unable to erase hollows. I simply break that parallel.

You didn’t break that parallel at all. Shinigami still primarily and have it as their job to purify hollows. Quincies still primarily and have it as their job to erase hollows

Once again, please, read everything before you start typing a reply. The question clearly says: "Yamamoto was erased by Yhwach" which Kubo debunks. It's a known fact that quincy erasure remove you from cycle of rebirth. Kubo just says yama wasn't removed from cycle of rebirth because he wasn't erased by Yhwach's quincy ee in the first place.

I know. This really doesn’t address the point I made at all though. He uses being removed from the soul cycle and erased from existence interchangeably

No. I do believe Aizen(whom he likely learnt it from and who also has several ee statements beside his passive aura) and the very few kido users on par with Aizen should be able to use it too.

So then why argue about the amount of people who can use it then?

Yes, it would make it way more powerfull. Even if someone can resist transmutation, it doesn't mean they can also resist transmutation via reality warping, or cm, for example unless they have feats or statements implying it.

It wouldn’t. Ichibe uses his concept manipulation of black to give him the ability to use ee. That would not classify the ee for being any higher level.

I don't see enough reasons to do so. You can also make your own crt for people being able to use any kido with a number lower than what they've been shown to use.

I never stated people are able to use any kido a number lower than what they’ve been shown to use.

Why do you think I told you to read page 3 again? Saqphire replied with what you just linked, then I answered with this, to which he answered with this, to which I replied with this, which he didn't refute. This is basically the same situation here only that you keep ignoring what I say and keep insisting on your interpretation without providing any proof for why it's valid. Instead, you keep asking me to prove negatives

You didn’t really even respond to the point about Mayuri’s statement

You said it could be this case and kept arguing for it and asking me to prove a negative.

You’re the one who claimed there was nothing left. That is not a claim you can make without proof. Otherwise, you could just claim any offscreen attack is ee by claiming there was absolutely nothing left.

Good, would you be kind enough to read a bit above that? I swear, you give me the impression you hate reading.

Did you miss the part about different versions of the same feat? And ad hominem, you seem to like using those.

Where is this stated?

Q625

Neither of those is a fire type kido except 73 which I already explained why it's placed higher.

I never said those were fire type kido

Again, it can be blocked extremely easy. And any relevant(in terms of power) bleach character can use techniques to greatly boost speed on short distances meaning they can easily dodge haien.

That’s what the list above was for

And grimmjow's sleeve was directly touching his arm? Don't you know how fire burns? Heck, Grimmjow's sleeve was tight on his arm. Now try placing a piece of paper 10 cm in front of grimmjow's arm, between it and tosen and the arm'd have been unscatched

Haien isn’t a fire type hado. You even prove this yourself. But this is still a testament to the supposed effectiveness under your viewpoint

Yeah, all of them except 3 people at the absolute highest estimation of their number

The exact number of people doesn’t really matter to my argument but the fact there is a number at all

And here is a little list of all the responses I didn’t reply to because they all essentially boiled down to “My argument is better than yours” or “I already told you that” even though I am currently debating against your points

Yes, you are. You do it again right now:

You 2

Read right above.

Once again, I am the one questioning the validity of the interpretation in the op and giving a far better interpretation which doesn't contradict anything.


Already explained several times both these "args".
First, I explained why Mayuri’s words don't actually contradict shinigami having ee, they only do it under your one specific interpretation of them. And under that interpretation, they are contradicted by other 10 canon statements, feats and narrative implications, including Mayuri himself erasing rukongai citizens.
Second, I already adressed the Unmasked statement and explained how it is contradicted by both narrative and Luppi's statement.

I adressed this several times already

There are a few others I think I missed also.

So, what are the conclusions here? Has the staff already given their opinion?

One has in approval. A few others have interacted with the thread but have not voted for whatever reason. That’s why I earlier asked for some of the mods’ input

Only one staff member has given an opinion so far. Tbh, even what I'm discussing with Joe is mostly repetitive stuff, so unless he's gonna bring something new, I seriously believe the reply I just gave to the debate should be the last one so the staff members don't waste any more time reading trough yap and just decide what they agree with

I could say the same thing. Neither of us have really brought anything new for the past few responses

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Having read through the thread, there's not much else (if anything) I could say that hasn't already been brought up. But for the Ichibe & Mayuri aspect of this in particular, I always thought this was a very weird justification for Aizen's Mid-Godly regen. I always thought Ichibe, who's quite obviously in a class of his own compared to other Shinigami, was excluded from Mayuri's equation of how nothing in the soul society could kill Aizen, especially with how largely independent Squad Zero is from what happens in the soul society in the first place. And even if Mayuri somehow would have Ichibe in consideration for that, it takes even more layers of assumption to believe he would know of Ichibe's most powerful ability in his arsenal.

Either way, I agree with the OP in pretty much everything.

 

[ItsMeat]

Ok, this is all just repetitive stuff, I already adressed these args.

Spoiler: Yap

I am quite literally quoting his words

You quoted them in one sentence, unlike how he actually said them.

And I have told you already I am not. I am not concerned with how he came to the conclusion that it was quincies. What I and the OP are talking about is the specific statement about how ONLY quincies are capable of erasing hollows from existence

And I am telling you he doesn't state that

I never claimed Mayuri was not replying to his question. That is also irrelevant to my point. You are ignoring that he says “They are the only ones” in reference to what he says right before.

Again, he's saying they are the only ones in refference to akon's question, not to one clue

Am I crazy for looking at the statement of “To be able to erase the very existence of hollows they are the only ones” and being able to derive the meaning of “they are the only ones able to erase the very existence of hollows”? You do understand dislocated clauses, right?

You do commit the mistake of assuming 2 different sentences are one.

There is no context I am ignoring that would change the meaning of Mayuri’s statement.

Well yeah, because he doesn't mean what you try to argue he means to begin with

Him responding to a question or the amount of hollows being erased is not something that has to do with what I am talking about. Mayuri does not mention those factors in his statement about quincies being the only ones.

Because they are right infront of him? And once again

Yeah, that’s why I said technically

I asked you for a member of gotei13. The fact an ex member of gotei 13 was only ever shown to use it after he left gotei 13 combined with the fact no member of gotei13 was shown to do that although a select few should be able to implies that:
A) he learnt it after leaving gotei 13
B) Gotei 13 members don't use it for whatever unknown reason

That wasn’t really my line of thought there. I wasn’t saying “If haien is ee, then why don’t soul reapers use it on hollows often?” My point there was that if haien exists as ee and is something multiple soul reapers have, then that would make a statement like saying quincies are the only ones able to erase hollows from existence contradictory.

There's no such statement though

Looking at the punctuation and using machine translation (though it isn’t always accurate) the translation in the OP aligned more with the original manga than the one you provided. Either way, both translations imply the same thing.

I tried mtl too and this was the result: "Isn't it decided? Being able to erase voids(hollows*)… It must be them!" Basically the what the anime says.

What? Do you know what you were replying to here? I asked how you questioning how Mayuri came to his conclusion is relevant to the thread because no other argument in this thread really even cares about that.

Pretty sure I already explained that: My argument is that the very interpretation of mayuri’s statement which represents the main argument in the op is wrong and I show a better interpretation which doesn't go all the way to contradict 10 canon statements and narrative implications.

How does it nullify the relevant arguments? The relevant arguments are based on the statement he says and not the conclusion he comes to from it.

The statement he says is that the quincy are the culprit, not that only they can erase hollows, that's what I kept saying for quite a while.

You still haven’t explained how it’s fallacious btw.

Ima just quote wikipedia: "Logic chopping fallacy (nit-picking, trivial objections) – Focusing on trivial details of an argument, rather than the main point of the argumentation"

I am not purposely ignoring anything you are saying. You are the only one questioning how Mayuri came to his conclusion. Nobody else in this thread is questioning that, and it’s pretty irrelevant to the current arguments because of that.

Again, the main arg of the thread is the interpretation of mayuri’s words in the op

I am taking Mayuri’s statement about them being the only ones, and applying that to the previous line he was referencing with it.

I already explained why erasing hollows isn't a clue specific enough to mean it can only be the quincy though. Not to mention that even the wording sounds strange when you do this. Why say in 2 separate sentences what can be said in only one? Like, he could have very well just said "Isn't it obvious? Only the quincy/they can erase hollows." or "The only ones who can erase the hollows are quincy/them." or literally any other way possible. I'm saying this interpretation is wrong because:
1. It contradicts a ton of canon statements, feats and narrative implications, meanwhile other intepretations don't
2. The wording is at the very least extremely strange, even for mayuri, leaving room for other interpretations
3. Mayuri literally used ee.

Mayuri does not directly and only reply to Akon’s statement with “They are the only ones” what you are doing here is what you are accusing me of doing, ignoring the context of the statement. Now apply that “They are the only ones” statement to the context of what Mayuri said right before that.

Why would I apply "they are the only ones!" to a clue that isn’t considered important enough to even mention when explaining to the captains the identity of the culprit?

You keep saying that, but that is what Mayuri attributes “They are the only ones” directly to.

Can you prove that?

Where are you getting that they weren’t sure about the identity of the culprit? They only question anything about the culprit because quincies were thought to be almost all extinct.

Quincy weren't considered almost extinct, many people knew yamamoto failed to kill yhwach a thousand years ago. They may have been driven into the shadows, but even after the second quincy genocide 200 years ago people still knew yhwach was alive.

The erasing of the hollows was also happening incredibly fast.

Exactly, far too short for the very few people in wotl who may know haien to do it. If anything, that's another clue mayuri had.

Can you get a translation helper to translate that? No official translation of my knowledge translates that as erase, and wasn’t it already argued previously in this thread that Mayuri only killed them?

Actually pretty sure mtl translations are accepted as long as they are used for a single word.

Only footprints being left behind really don’t add any further justification for them being erased. We don’t knkw how they were killed

Already linked ee?

or even if they were killed on that spot.

The footprints thing is literally mentioned because the footprints show they were all gathered in one place and then they were erased.

Can you prove that claim that the other captains didn’t know what he meant by destruction? And he later further clarifies by saying their souls were extinguished.

Can you prove they would assume destruction means erasure? Again, extinguish≠erase.

To extinguish their souls would though would be. As that’s what quincies do and that’s what leads to a soul imbalance.

Extinguish. Quincy erase.

I’ll respond to both of these at the same time. If the erasure or destruction or whatever was not a clue then why would it even be mentioned in the first place?

I didn't say it's not a clue. In fact, I repeatedly stated it is but a mere clue. And there are many reasons for it being mentioned: such as the unnatural disappearence of a lot of hollows to be even more strange, the narrative role of greatly reducing the possible culprits(as not many people besides the quincy have ee though) and suggesting it's the quincy(based on the fact quincy do always erase hollows and no spiritually aware entity/race besides them does that), without outright saying it, hence the "them" part.

Both times right before Mayuri refers to quincies in reference to the hollow erasure he specifically mentions erasure.

Only one time and the other time, when listing the actually important clues to people unaware of the situation in wotl, he doesn't even bother mentioning ee.

Not true. You say the ability to erase hollows is a different story but that is what he specifically mentions before saying that “they are the only ones”

As a mere clue. And don't forget the … between the 2 sentences and the fact "They are the only ones!" Is a separate sentence.

Yeah, I never disregarded that. But he never mentions any other clues besides the ability to erase hollows when he explains to Akon why quincies are the only ones.

Akon also had all the other clues right there.

Which both follow the same context in this scenario.

The anime statement does. Op's version of the manga doesn't.

Mayuri’s statement is just phrased a little bit differently.

I don't know where all the versions presented here come, but it’s clear some of them aren't official and op's clearly isn't, even the word "only" is in another sentence than in the anime

I’m pretty sure that is an official translation, and other translations have the exact same implications.

As someone who read the bleach manga in like 6 versions including the official one, I can confidently say, that's not official. And they do not have the exact same implications as you can see.

I can look at the anime myself. I have even directly quoted it multiple times in this thread.
I never do.

Then you know the lines. However, for whoever reads this, just in case:

By that logic it makes no sense for him to even mention hollows at all.

How does it make no sense?

I was referring to the scene with Akon

Ik, just decided to say again what the actually important clues are. Yeah, these last replies are just repetitive stuff.

With the only clue he accentuates is the ability to erase hollows from existence.

Already explained the narrative role of this clue. I don’t deny the narrative portrayal of the quincy eeasing souls.

And these attack do not have a strong enough case for being ee. That is the whole problem.

Then why did you pull those scans in our debate?. Anyway, I did show there're no ashes left or anything which contradicts the 3rd guidebook statemet, meanwhile it supports the one from the 2nd guidebook.

Then why would he even mention the ability to erase hollows from existence? According to you it isn’t a clue

I never said it's not a clue.

That’s what I am telling you in all of my replies

?

“ Plus the wording is, like for Zanka no Tachi: East, not necessarily indicative of Existence Erasure either, as someone "disappearing without a trace" is super vague.”

We already discussed the wording for soi fon's:

Me: "It's argued that it has the same problem as the yamamoto statement. Which is however, wrong, there is no instance of anything remaining of the victim which is the reaosn yamamoto' ee is removed(which I agree with)"
You: "That’s not the only problem it shares with the yamamoto statement. The language used is not necessarily indicative of ee. That is gone over in the op."
Me: "The wording used does imply ee if there's nothing left behind, that's why it was accepted in the first place. And unlike yamamoto's statement, this one has no antifeat like something remaining." -you didn't reply to this

But it still does not really contribute to your argument at all.

It literally does? It shows shinigami have ee which is a direct debunk to your interpretation of mayuri’s words

We are currently debating about whether it is ee or not, yes? So that means you cannot use the basis of, “it’s ee” within your arguments here, because that is what you are arguing for in the first place.

Almost correct. We are discussing the interpretations of mayuri’s words. Unlike your interpretation of mayuri’s words, luppi's statement is 100% canon and not contradicted by anything except your interpretation of mayuri’s statement. Manga>guidebook in terms of canonicity via the wiki's rules. Not to mention there's another guidebook statement supporting the manga statement, making it extremely solid. Facts>interpretations which should already be a debunk to your interpretation.

If anything, you're doing this: you go on the basis of "it's not ee" in your args because that is what you are arguing for in the first place, without actually proving why your interpretation is correct

But how does it support any of your current arguments?

It directly debunks your interpretation of mayuri’s words.

I don’t need to. Not only is db irrelevant to this thread, but I never stated that ee can’t leave anything behind.

Finally adressing that arg. I agree on this part. Now, it's up to you to support the ashes guidebook statement with a manga statement or feat. Because so far, manga statement>guidebook statement with nothing backing it up and random interpretation(debunked by the character himself btw) of a character's words. Not to mention the manga statement is also supported by another guidebook statement and a narrative implication.

Okay then, can you re-explain how orihime’s healing points towards haien being ee?

Orihime's powers are stated to be beyond spatial and temporal regression, being straight up event rejection, not mere healing. And while the temporal regression is more debateable and it depends on the form it takes, spatial regression can't bring back what was erased. Had it been merely atomisation or any lower form of destruction than ee, those particles could have been pulled back with spatial regression. The only case where it doesn't matter is pure ee as nothing is left behind to be regrouped as grimmjow's arm.

Do you know what scans you are referring to here? You were said aizen mentioned ee when talking about orihime’s abilities.

No? I never claimed that. Following up through the direct chain of quotes, you can see I tell you you need to read the scans again then. The scans. Nothing specifically about orihime. This was about the cfyow part.

That’s because they cannot definitively say any character has a hado they have not used.

So you can't say that either, case closed. At best, you may get a "likely" rating.

But it would be illogical to say that tosen is the only one capable of using haien.

Yes, I did say I believe he likely learnt it from aizen considering he's the only one using it but no shino academy student besides him ever used it.

You know what an appeal to possibility is, correct? Stating something is a possibility is not an appeal to possibility.

Never said it is? I said that if you argue for it just because it's a possibility, then that's appeal to possibility.

I am arguing against you stating that there was nothing left of grimmjow’s arm in the manga without sufficient proof.

You're aware you're replying to your mayuri possibly not knowing about ichibe's mausoleum, right?

Yeah? That’s what I said.

Ok

It looks like to me that they are just moving away from the pov

Their movement maintains the same direction and while in a 3d movement they may be getting away from the pov, we can also see they move in around the same direction as the other blood drops as fast as the others, with slight differences based on the amoujt of blood in each drop.

Can you provide sufficient proof that anime only additions would be considered canon in this scenario by the rules?

It's not an anime addition, just the anime showing the full erasure process, which is confirmed to have happened in the manga and in the guidebook

And you have yet to prove that there is nothing left of it in the anime.

You literally have the scene recorder, you can see it's gone.

Yeah, I am arguing that you can’t argue that there wasn’t anything left behind without sufficient proof.

1. That's a negative, the BoP would be on the affirmative.
2. I have sufficient proof: the anime fully showing it being erase + the statements about its erasure + lack of any actual evidence contradicting this

Your claim that there was nothing left behind would also need sufficient proof.

Why? Also, I have all the proof needed.

That is a false dilemma.

How so?

I am arguing that you need proof before you can claim there was nothing left of grimmjows arm in the manga

Proof that I have brought

I am not concerned with the amount of hollows or timeframe. Nothing in my argument relies on that.

But part of my argument does and you are the one arguing against my args

I know.

Then?

You didn’t break that parallel at all. Shinigami still primarily and have it as their job to purify hollows. Quincies still primarily and have it as their job to erase hollows

I meant the parallel the op is trying to draw. I don’t say shinigami don't usually focus on purifying holows. I just say the way it's presented seems pretty restrictive towards shinigami's other methods of killing hollows, which is what I break.

I know. This really doesn’t address the point I made at all though. He uses being removed from the soul cycle and erased from existence interchangeably

No? He uses being erased by a quincy as a removal from the soul cycle. Bot simply being erased.

So then why argue about the amount of people who can use it then?

Because it's too few to be them which is another clue that leads towards the quincy.

It wouldn’t. Ichibe uses his concept manipulation of black to give him the ability to use ee. That would not classify the ee for being any higher level.

It's still ee via conceptual manipulation at the very least. Which, again, is far more op than simple mere, even if we assume both of them only erase the same aspects. Like saying thay because you can resist normal power nullification, you can also resist conceptual power nullification.

I never stated people are able to use any kido a number lower than what they’ve been shown to use.

Yet you're trying to argue there are such people.

You didn’t really even respond to the point about Mayuri’s statement

I've been responding to your repetitive points about it for quite a while

You’re the one who claimed there was nothing left. That is not a claim you can make without proof.

The proof lies within the canon statements and the arm being fully shown to disappear with no debunk to them

Otherwise, you could just claim any offscreen attack is ee by claiming there was absolutely nothing left.

No? Without statements you can't just claim ee in the first place. And right now, via this comparition, you are directly arguing it's offscreen

Did you miss the part about different versions of the same feat?

It's not a different version? Both the manga and the anime support the erasure and show nothing left from it and it is completely normal for the anime to have more frames than the manga.

And ad hominem, you seem to like using those.

I don't especially like it, and I am not attacking you instead of your args. This is merely me stating my impression, unrelated to the arguments, to which I fully reply

Q625

Ok, a hado higher in the number than danku may have bypassed it had it not been aizen the one using it. How does that mean haien can bypass it?

I never said those were fire type kido

Fair, I thought you were replying to the thing right above it.

That’s what the list above was for

I see. There's also the nature part of their ranking. Like, if you ask me, I don't see how how hado 91 is better than kurohitsugi.

Haien isn’t a fire type hado. You even prove this yourself. But this is still a testament to the supposed effectiveness under your viewpoint

Haien is stated to be a flame. It's name also literally is abolition flame.

The exact number of people doesn’t really matter to my argument but the fact there is a number at all

Your very argument against it that also uses the number of users is the interpretation of mayuri's words, which I repeatedly debunked.

And here is a little list of all the responses I didn’t reply to because they all essentially boiled down to “My argument is better than yours” or “I already told you that” even though I am currently debating against your points

Ngl, most of the debate is like this at this point

One has in approval. A few others have interacted with the thread but have not voted for whatever reason. That’s why I earlier asked for some of the mods’ input

Let's hope they come, idk

I could say the same thing. Neither of us have really brought anything new for the past few responses

Well, I did bring some scans, but yeah that's all. Tbh we should just end this now. If you reply to this one(ig you will but idk) and bring nothing new, I probably won’t reply back since I do believe I made my points pretty clear.

I will just sum them up for whoever unlucky admin reads this thread:

Edit: Given how small the amount of people who read this spoiler is, I think I should just remove it and pray someone actually reads these pages properly, because there are insane lvls of headcanon around.

Spoiler: Actually useful stuff

Yamamoto​

I agree with his bankai losing ee

Haien​

Canon stuff that supports Haien's existence erasure:​

1. The one in the op(guidebook 2, official translation, double checked by a human translator)
2. The official raws of Luppi's statement in the manga in refference to it being impossible to restore Grimmjow's arm.
3. Orihime's powers restoring Grimmjow's arm meaning they are way above mere spatial regression, as spatial regression should only be able to restore the particles of his arm as long as they aren't non existent and, well, they were erased.

Canon stuff contradicting it:​

The statement in the op about it turning things to ashes(Guidebook 3, statement translated by a human translator)

Problems:
1. Guidebooks are considered secondary canon and this one clearly contradicts not only another guidebook statement but also a manga one.
2. Moreover, we see nothing left of his arm in either manga or the anime and the anime does fully show the erasure process and there are no ashes whatsoever. This also serves to debunk the argument in the op about us not really seeing something after it was hit with haien(which further supports its erasure, btw and we do see panels showcasing grimmjow, tosen, the floor and the surroundings without anything left of his arm anywhere)
3. There have been a lot of problems with the translation and even some different opinions and different versions of the raws(!). In fact, when checking throughout the links for the translations of haien's statements: here is where the statement from the 2nd guidebook is translated. Then, Saqphire asks for the translation of the statement from the 3rd guidebook where translators point out how bad the quality of the image is. Then he brings the extrapolated raws(he himself does seem to imply there may be mistakes), which dattebayo translates as existence erasure once again. Then Seiji translates it too admitting some things don’t make much sense. In the end, Seiji translates Astral's version of the raws(although he admits some things seem cropped) with what is the current argument.

The argument that only quincy can erase hollows and its problems​

Here things get tricky because the OP uses unofficial translations which move words from a sentence to another changing the meaning of Mayuri’s words. This is the most canon translation(tybw anime official one): "Isn't it obvious? To be able to erase the very existence of hollows… They are the only ones!"

Now, why did I bring this up? Because right before his words, he's asked by Akon about the identity of the culprit, "They are the only ones!" being the answer to that question. Unlike the translation in the op, mayuri’s words leave space for multiple interpretations. One of them still is that only quincy erase hollows, of course. But there’s a lot of context this one ignores: Mayuri had all the clues right infront of him!

To be more precise, there are 3 clues considered essential for determining it's the quincy: destruction of hollows, the large scale of this destruction and the location, World of The Living. These are the 3 clues he gives to the captains when explaining them the situation and he considers these enough for anyone to understand it's the quincy

The location excludes most of the possible haien users which were in soul society at the time.
The large scale excludes the few possible haien users that were in the world of the living at the time, implying there's a way larger group.
And destruction is considered enough clue, although no one, not even the op, argues only quincy can "destroy" hollows. Erasure isn't considered that much of an important clue. If only quincy were able to erase hollows, Mayuri could have just said something like "Someone erased hollows in WoTL, I'm sure you all know that means it's the quincy."

Other problems with only the quincy being able to erase hollows:​

1. If only quincy could erase hollows, then, the moment the first hollow was erased, they would have known who the culprit is. They didn't. It took the equivalent of 28k souls to be erased for someone to do something about it. It shows that's not such an amazing event and, in fact, there have been such cases before, although on a lower scale. This further supports the relevance of the number and the irrelevance of the erasure.
2. This interpretation contradicts several canon statements, feats and narrative implications:
●The 3 Haien statements and narrative implications, as well as the anime scene of it fully erasing grimmjow's arm(right above)
●Soi Fon's(which I adress in detail below)
●4 different CFYOW statements implying shinigami Aizen can use ee, supported by the anime fully showing tosen vanishing in 2 steps(one: his body, with only blood being thrown everywhere because of the impact and two: the blood vanishes as well)
●The Oken's creation which implies both shinigami Aizen and Yamamoto can use ee
●Aizen's passive ee(although the op explicitly says Aizen should keep it)
●Ichibe's(same as Aizen's passive ee)

3. Most ridiculously, Mayuri himself debunks this interpretation in the original raws, erasing 28k souls to combat the mass hollow erasure done by the quincy in wotl

4. Let's assume for a moment, shinigami can't erase hollows, that's not the case, but let's do it, this would only mean their ee possesses a weakness against hollows(debunked by haien, but whatever), this is no reason to remove ee like the op suggests.

"The narrative portrayal of only quincy using ee" thing​

Shinigami did indeed cause a quincy genocide in order to prevent them from removing any more hollows from the cycle of rebirth. This is not a debunk to shinigami having ee, the difference between their ee techniques and that of quincy is that quincy constantly use it, unlike them. Shinigami do usually just purrify hollows with their zanpakto instead of destroying them with kido. Also that quincy ee removes you from the cycle of rebirth.

"Ee removes you from the cycle of rebirth"​

No, it doesn't, only erasures known to do it are quincy and ichibe's. There's an important difference between tamashi and konpaku, quincy ee is just more potent than regular ee's in the verse.

As for Kubo supposedly saying existence erasure removes you from the cycle of rebirth, that's not the case either. If you check the scan, Kubo only says Yamamoto wasn't removed from the cycle of rebirth because Quincy ee specifically(and Yhwach is, of course, a quincy) only works on hollows. It's a known fact that quincy erasure removes you from cycle of rebirth. Kubo never said all erasures do that.

"Randoms would have ee"​

1. Where's the problem with this? How does this mean anything?
2. No, they wouldn’t. Even wielding kidos in the 30's are considered impressive by lieutenants, who are the best members of Gotei 13 when it comes to kido, zanjutsu and general power after captains. And there are many possible reasons we've never seen a member of Gotei 13 use haien, although certain top tiers should be able to. Kidos in the 30 are already considered middle lvl even from a captain pov.

Then why does Mayuri mention hollows being erased?

Simple, to give us a hint regarding the identity of the culprit without confirming it. Hence the "They", instead of simply "Quincy". As I already said above, Quincy do have the narrative portrayal of hollow erasers, I don't argue against that. They are the only race that always erases hollows. As explained, they aren't the only ones, but they are infamous for it and they did it so much it threatened to collapse the world 3 times(1k years ago, 200 years ago and at the beggining of tybw), unlike any shinigami

Soi Fon​

Canon stuff supporting it:​

1. The cfyow statement that got her ee accepted in the first place
2. The two feats of ee: one in the Arrancar arc(already shown by someone here) + one in the canon Memories of Nobody movie

Canon stuff against it:​

Nothing really.

Op's arguments against it:​

1. "It has the same problem as Yamamoto's statement"​

No, it doesn't, it has no antifeat of anything remaing behind.

2. "The wording is the same as Yamamoto's statement"​

Yes, it may be the same words, but there’s a huge difference between them: Yamamoto's "erasure" is done via temperature and physics, her erasure is purely magical. Comparing them and saying what applies for one because of antifeats, applies for the other as well, without any antifeat(!), is just a False Equivalence.

3. "Only quincy have ee" and 4. "No removal from the cycle of rebirth"​

These 2 args have been adressed above.

Aizen's Mid Godly Regen​

As everyone except Yamamoto's bankai should keep their Existence Erasure, so should Aizen still keep his regen via Mayuri’s statement that no one in Soul Society can execute him

Additional supporting stuff(these are feats that may be used for replacing Mugetsu and keeping his regen in case it's somehow accepted they don’t have ee):​

1. Yhwach absorbed Aizen but he just respawned/regenerated after and is fine in Muken.
2. Shaz Domino whom we accept as having Mid Godly(his page still talks about him regenerating his fundamental information in The Viability section, btw) still wanted to obtain a Hōgyoku, implying Hōgyoku and Aizen's regeneration to be superior(which it lowkey is, it doesn't need to absorb reishi from the surroundings in order to regenerate) or/and at least on par with his own regeneration, considering it a power fit for his immortality.

Edit: I think i fixed the grammar

Edit: Billy doesn't know you don't reply to conclusions and keeps saying the same bs, so ima reply to his "debunk":

1. The statement(which is also fact checked and the official translation is correct) about Haien being ee is supported by the original raws, the narrative implication that supports Orihime's power and the fact we fully see Grimmjow's arm is completely gone + the fact Tosen, a Haien user, talks about EE. What contradicts it is merely one translation of the cropped raws of another guidebook statement which is neither supported by the narrative nor by anything else

2. Literally every translation means it's no longer in this world, that it's been reduced to 0, which is also why spatial regression, no matter how potent, will be able to bring back, thus Orihime's powers being far superior to it.

3. Please, don't ever compare a character with a "Gifted" intelligence rating to a "Extraordinary Genius-Possible Supergenius" one, who's literally the 2nd smartest guy in the verse. Aizen's words>>>Ulquiorra's.

4. Please, don't try to make people read your yap again, it's cap which I repeatedly refuted, yet you kept saying the same bs. The only thing contradicted by the narrative about Haien is the translation in the OP.

5. The place where Grimmjow's arm fell is repeatedly shown later in the same scene and there's nothing left from it. And per the canonicity rules:

tertiary canon consists of official adaptations not overseen by the author, which do not modify or contradict source material.

And here as well, if the feat is correctly depicted over multiple canons any of these can be used to judge the feat.

The anime scene is 100% usable. In fact, the anime episode aired in 2007, 3 years before the second guidebook(where the ee statement in the OP comes from) was published. The fact the anime crew knew since then that there should be nothing left of Grimmjow's arm further proves how this is actually EE and how Kubo's manga depicts Haien as EE.

6. The translation used in the OP is still from a version of the raws that even the translator agrees to seem cropped. Saying this is the most correct one is hilarious at the very least.

7. The translation used in the OP has a different wording and supports less possible interpretations than the official one, making it simply unusable. The official translation does allow more interpretations, as I repeatedly said and the one supported by like other 20 statements isn't the one implied by the unofficial version in the OP.

8. So you agree Mayuri did the same thing as the Quincy then? Holy bias then for believing your interpretation of the quincy statement over 20+ canon things directly contradicting it.

9. Never sais it took 28k hollows. I said it took the equivalent of 28k souls. The fact 28k Rukongai citizens were erased all at once to balance the erasure of hollows in WoTL implies it took an equal quantity of souls(since hollows, especially the large ones, are often formed from multiple souls) for them to do this. And this was the first action in regards to the disappearence of hollows. Also, Mayuri implanted bugs inside Uryu to track all of his actions ever since the Soul Society arc so those minor events in the past they're talking about clearly weren't from him.

10. The CFYOW statements are very direct, nothing figurative at all about them.

"Please, wipe my existence out from this world and leave no trace"

"I would like the mercy of disappearing from this world"

"Please destroy the entirety of my konpaku"

"Let me promise you that. Before you suffer from the plight of forgiving the Soul Reapers, I will erase you with certainty."

And after Tosen saying he wants his konpaku destroyed, Aizen promises him that he will certainly erase him. Also Tosen asks not only for destruction, but for the destruction of the entirety of his konpaku, erasure, no trace of him remaining as Aizen wipes his existence out of the world.

11. Aizen's ee is also shown to work on don kanonji's staff and that Soul Reaper's hands. Oken's creation literally erases the people as well as Karakura or at least a huge portion of it. It doesn't take many adsumptions to say Mayuri knows about Ichibe's technique.

12. He didn't argue against the originak raws translating as erasure.

13. No, only quincy and Ichibe's ee remove you from the cycle of rebirth. The rest is headcanon. No other EE in the verse is stated to remove you from the cycle of rebirth and I also already expmained why they are removed. Stop ignoring facts.

14. As explained several times, randoms wouldn't have EE regardless. Even kidos in the 30's are considered difficult even for lieutenants. Only a few select Shinigami can use hado54.

15. Again, "they" is the answer to Akon's question, not the only ones able to erase hollows.

16. Good to see you ignore once again the fact that even supposing they are unable to erase hollows(debunked by Haien) thisnonly means their EE has a weakness, not that they don't have EE. You're literally arguing against 20 canon things because of one interpretation of a statement eithout any more canonicity than the other 20 statements.

17. Soi Fon's has no vague wording and unlike Yamamoti it has no antifeat, meanwhile it does have 2 canon feats and, once again, there is no narrative contradiction here, only one interpretation of a statement, which isn't supported by anything.

18. Again, Soi Fon's is valid, Haien is valid, etc. They are all valid forms of EE.

19. It's onscreen + regenerating your body, soul and mind which were absorbed is mid godly

20. Shaz is literally able to regenerate into reality, that's why he had high godly previously, but it was too vague to keep any fundamental aspect at all since it got removed.

 

[Billybobjoe321]

Ok, this is all just repetitive stuff,

so unless he's gonna bring something new, I seriously believe the reply I just gave to the debate should be the last one

So is it repetitive or is it new?
I also called it btw

I’m ngl I doubt that. Whenever somebody says this in a debate they usually continue to reply after.

Spoiler

You quoted them in one sentence, unlike how he actually said them.

That’s what the ellipses are for. It’s a continuation of what he said prior. “To be capable of erasing the very existence of hollows” is not a complete thought or sentence. Separating the second part, “They are the only ones” like you do, would not make sense at all in this scenario, as the line “To be capable of erasing the very existence of hollows” is not a line that can stand on it’s own grammatically

And I am telling you he doesn't state that

Yeah, I know. This is what you have been doing the entire time. And what I am doing is explaining to you that he does.

Again, he's saying they are the only ones in refference to akon's question, not to one

You do commit the mistake of assuming 2 different sentences are one.

Is there not a line that he says in between saying “Isn’t it obvious” and “They are the only ones”? A line that specifically ends in an ellipses? If the sequence went like “Captain, could this be” “isn’t it obvious? They are the only ones” then I would understand your viewpoint, because with this structure it is clear that by “only ones” he is referring to the previous line. But alas, Mayuri inserted a different line before “They are the only ones”, one that specifically ends with an ellipses and fits grammatically before “They are the only ones” in a sentence. “To be capable of erasing the very existence of hollows” is a sentence fragment, not a complete sentence. For it to become a full sentence, it would need something before it or something after it to complete it. It obviously can’t be before, “Isn’t it obvious to be capable of erasing the very existence of hollows” is not a complete sentence, however, what Mayuri says directly after not only completes the sentence in a way that makes sense, but aligns with the exact context of that exact same statement in the manga. So to say that the line “to be capable of erasing the very existence of hollows” is a different sentence is just blatantly false. And did you ignore my point about the dislocated clause? And under your assumption that it is a completely different sentence, what would the supposed sentence “to be capable of erasing the very existence of hollows” mean or matter in this context?

Well yeah, because he doesn't mean what you try to argue he means to begin with

He does as I explain above. It also echoes the manga.

Because they are right infront of him? And once again

The hollows being erased is also right in front of him. So why would he only mention the capability to erase hollows? And having it right in front of him is still not a good enough excuse. Mayuri starts his reply by saying “Isn’t it obvious”, which now implies that his next response if he has one is going to explain why it is obvious. He then says “To be capable of erasing the very existence of hollows” as if that is the explanation as to why it is obvious. This heavily implies that the capability to erase hollows is an explanation that makes the answer obvious. If the clues Mayuri had in front of him were the most relevant clues, supposedly unlike the ability to erase hollows from existence, then why wouldn’t he say something like “Isn’t it obvious? With the amount of hollows being destroyed and it being in the world of the living… They are the only ones!” It wouldn't matter if it was in front of him. By your logic it should make more sense for him to either mention what’s in front of him, or just not mention any clues at all.

I asked you for a member of gotei13. The fact an ex member of gotei 13 was only ever shown to use it after he left gotei 13 combined with the fact no member of gotei13 was shown to do that although a select few should be able to implies that:
A) he learnt it after leaving gotei 13

Option A doesn’t seem really implies. There are plenty of hado that are used just a single time.

B) Gotei 13 members don't use it for whatever unknown reason

Option B seems most likely. I mean you could say this same thing about multiple other hado.

There's no such statement though

There effectively is.

I tried mtl too and this was the result: "Isn't it decided? Being able to erase voids(hollows*)… It must be them!" Basically the what the anime says.

Mine gave a different result. But either way, both mtls, the official translation, and the anime, all point towards my interpretation. In fact, you are the only person I have seen take a different interpretation of the statement.

Pretty sure I already explained that: My argument is that the very interpretation of mayuri’s statement which represents the main argument in the op is wrong and I show a better interpretation which doesn't go all the way to contradict 10 canon statements and narrative implications.

But what does questioning how Mayuri came to his conclusion have to do with any of that? And you still haven’t given 10 canon statements and narrative implications that support your argument.

The statement he says is that the quincy are the culprit, not that only they can erase hollows, that's what I kept saying for quite a while.

Yeah, his statement does imply that quincies are the culprit, but just dumbing it down to that ignores what he specifically says within that statement, and completely ignores the line “to be capable of erasing the very existence of hollows”

Ima just quote wikipedia: "Logic chopping fallacy (nit-picking, trivial objections) – Focusing on trivial details of an argument, rather than the main point of the argumentation"

I wasn’t even really focusing on that. I was just simply asking you to explain how it’s fallacious like you said it was. This response pretty clearly indicates that you yourself didn’t even know how it was fallacious, and just said it, I guess, just because. Wouldn’t it be simple to just state what fallacy it was?

Again, the main arg of the thread is the interpretation of mayuri’s words in the op

I know, but that is not the only argument.

I already explained why erasing hollows isn't a clue specific enough to mean it can only be the quincy though.

Then why would he mention it right after saying “Isn’t it obvious”?

Not to mention that even the wording sounds strange when you do this. Why say in 2 separate sentences what can be said in only one?

Because it isn’t 2 separate sentences. That simple. The first “sentence” does not constitute as one and can not make sense as one.

Like, he could have very well just said "Isn't it obvious? Only the quincy/they can erase hollows."

He effectively did, he just used a dislocated clause.

or "The only ones who can erase the hollows are quincy/them." or literally any other way possible.

He literally does. He says “to be capable of erasing the very existence of hollows, they are the only ones” he just adds a dramatic pause in the middle of the sentence, hence the ellipses and grammar. This sentence takes place at the beginning of the arc, the “they are the only ones” part is supposed to build suspense and hype, which is why they dislocate it and create a pause in the sentence it takes place in. I could also ask you a very similar question to the one you ask here, in fact, I do above.

I'm saying this interpretation is wrong because:
1. It contradicts a ton of canon statements, feats and narrative implications, meanwhile other intepretations don't

You just keep saying this without listing or explaining.

2. The wording is at the very least extremely strange, even for mayuri, leaving room for other interpretations

No, it isn’t. I explain the wording above, including how there is no room for other interpretations.

3. Mayuri literally used ee.

You need to prove that.

Why would I apply "they are the only ones!" to a clue that isn’t considered important enough to even mention when explaining to the captains the identity of the culprit?

Because that is what he says literally right before saying “they are the only ones”. And if the clue wasn’t important enough to mention, then why did he mention it there? He also did mention it to the captains, he specifically mentions souls being erased.

Can you prove that?

Yes, that is what I am doing a good chunk of each of my replies doing.

Quincy weren't considered almost extinct, many people knew yamamoto failed to kill yhwach a thousand years ago. They may have been driven into the shadows, but even after the second quincy genocide 200 years ago people still knew yhwach was alive.

So… almost extinct then? They did not know of that many quincies being alive.

Exactly, far too short for the very few people in wotl who may know haien to do it. If anything, that's another clue mayuri had.

That’s not really relevant to any argument. I never said Mayuri had no other clues.

Actually pretty sure mtl translations are accepted as long as they are used for a single word.

Aren’t the meaning of kanji changed by the context and other kanji around them though? And that doesn’t necessarily translate to erase either

Already linked ee?

?

The footprints thing is literally mentioned because the footprints show they were all gathered in one place and then they were erased.

We don’t know that they were erased, or even on that spot.

Can you prove they would assume destruction means erasure? Again, extinguish≠erase.

I can actually. The kanji said by Mayuri is the exact same ones used in reference to haien as support for it being ee. 消滅. So either Mayuri meant erasure, or haien was never stated to be erasure in the first place.

I didn't say it's not a clue. In fact, I repeatedly stated it is but a mere clue. And there are many reasons for it being mentioned: such as the unnatural disappearence of a lot of hollows to be even more strange,

How would this be a reason for it being mentioned?

the narrative role of greatly reducing the possible culprits(as not many people besides the quincy have ee though) and suggesting it's the quincy(based on the fact quincy do always erase hollows and no spiritually aware entity/race besides them does that), without outright saying it, hence the "them" part.

But aren’t you repeatedly saying that it is not one of the necessary clues, and that he didn’t even need to mention it to the captains? If that was the case, what would be the need to mention that as if it was the main clue there?

when listing the actually important clues to people unaware of the situation in wotl, he doesn't even bother mentioning ee.

He does. At the end. Right before saying it’s obvious that the culprits are quincies. He uses the kanji 消滅 which are the same exact ones used to justify haien being ee. So this is just blatantly false

As a mere clue. And don't forget the … between the 2 sentences

It was one sentence. You act as if the ellipses is just a pause between two completely separate sentences, but the first “sentence” cannot possibly be it’s own stand alone sentence without any other context being added to it. “To be capable of erasing the very existence of hollows.” Is not a viable stand alone sentence. You act like ellipses aren’t used to add a pause in the middle of a sentence.

Akon also had all the other clues right there.

I know, and?

The anime statement does. Op's version of the manga doesn't.

All of them do, as I am repeatedly explaining

I don't know where all the versions presented here come, but it’s clear some of them aren't official and op's clearly isn't, even the word "only" is in another sentence than in the anime

The official lines up with it as well, so this really doesn’t matter.

As someone who read the bleach manga in like 6 versions including the official one, I can confidently say, that's not official. And they do not have the exact same implications as you can see

The official one carries the same implications. Didn’t you provide a scan of it?

Then you know the lines. However, for whoever reads this, just in case:

You forgot to put anything here

How does it make no sense?

Because he also had that right in front of him. A radar of hollows

Anyway, I did show there're no ashes left or anything which contradicts the 3rd guidebook statemet, meanwhile it supports the one from the 2nd guidebook

You only showed an anime only scene

We already discussed the wording for soi fon's:

Me: "It's argued that it has the same problem as the yamamoto statement. Which is however, wrong, there is no instance of anything remaining of the victim which is the reaosn yamamoto' ee is removed(which I agree with)"
You: "That’s not the only problem it shares with the yamamoto statement. The language used is not necessarily indicative of ee. That is gone over in the op."
Me: "The wording used does imply ee if there's nothing left behind, that's why it was accepted in the first place. And unlike yamamoto's statement, this one has no antifeat like something remaining." -you didn't reply to this

I must’ve forgot or missed it. The problem is not that it can’t mean ee if taken hyper literally, or that it has any anti-feats, but that the wording itself is not necessarily indicative of ee. So it doesn’t have a strong case for being ee in the first place. Especially since we’ve seen that same wording be used for something you agree is not ee.

It literally does? It shows shinigami have ee which is a direct debunk to your interpretation of mayuri’s words

This point is pretty ridiculous. Shinigami just technically have the ability to harvest 100000 souls within a small radius to forge oken, which would erase those souls, though technically not since they became oken. And it’s a question of whether Mayuri would even know how oken’s made.

luppi's statement is 100% canon and not contradicted by anything except your interpretation of mayuri’s statement.

How does luppi’s statement contradict Mayuri’s?

Not to mention there's another guidebook statement supporting the manga statement, making it extremely solid.

What guidebook statement are you referring to here?

Facts>interpretations which should already be a debunk to your interpretation.

Saying “Facts>interpretations” doesn’t debunk anything. I could say the same thing

If anything, you're doing this: you go on the basis of "it's not ee" in your args because that is what you are arguing for in the first place, without actually proving why your interpretation is correct

I have been proving my stance throughout this thread now. What do you think all of these replies were for?

It directly debunks your interpretation of mayuri’s words

How?

Finally adressing that arg. I agree on this part. Now, it's up to you to support the ashes guidebook statement with a manga statement or feat.

I have. Mayuri’s statement

Because so far, manga statement>guidebook statement with nothing backing it up and random interpretation

Exactly my point

Not to mention the manga statement is also supported by another guidebook statement and a narrative implication.

I could almost copy and paste this whole paragraph and use it in my argument. This whole thing is pretty meaningless.

Orihime's powers are stated to be beyond spatial and temporal regression, being straight up event rejection, not mere healing. And while the temporal regression is more debateable and it depends on the form it takes, spatial regression can't bring back what was erased. Had it been merely atomisation or any lower form of destruction than ee, those particles could have been pulled back with spatial regression. The only case where it doesn't matter is pure ee as nothing is left behind to be regrouped as grimmjow's arm.

Okay? So how does this mean that grimmjow’s arm was erased? You are basically trying to argue: Orihime’s healing is beyond spatial regression->spatial regression wouldn’t be able to heal ee->Orihime was able to heal grimmjow’s arm-> grimmjow’s arm must’ve been erased from existence. By that line of logic everything that orihime has ever healed was erased from existence.

No? I never claimed that. Following up through the direct chain of quotes, you can see I tell you you need to read the scans again then. The scans. Nothing specifically about orihime. This was about the cfyow part

What you told me to read the scans about was about your orihime point. Go back and check.

So you can't say that either, case closed. At best, you may get a "likely" rating

No, because it would not be ridiculous to assume that there is at least someone who is in the gotei 13 has the ability to use haien.

Never said it is? I said that if you argue for it just because it's a possibility, then that's appeal to possibility.

That's just an appeal to possibility.

So then you just brought up something irrelevant? That’s like if I said, “using an argument to prove itself is circular reasoning” to one of your responses, and you said “I never used circular reasoning” for me to reply “I never claimed you did, just that using an argument to prove itself would be circular reasoning”. Like yeah, you are technically correct, but then what was the point of bringing up appeal to possibility if I was not using it? And that is also just a blatant lie. You clearly said “that’s just an appeal to possibility” and then when I ask you how, you now say that you never said it was an appeal to possibility? What’s next, are you gonna say “I never said I Never said it is, I just said “Never said it is” without clarifying WHO never said it is”?

You're aware you're replying to your mayuri possibly not knowing about ichibe's mausoleum, right?

My mistake, but you still never explained how my point about that was an appeal to possibility.

Their movement maintains the same direction and while in a 3d movement they may be getting away from the pov, we can also see they move in around the same direction as the other blood drops as fast as the others, with slight differences based on the amoujt of blood in each drop.

I am struggling to understand what you were talking about here.

It's not an anime addition, just the anime showing the full erasure process,

Showing something that was not shown in the manga, aka, an addition?

which is confirmed to have happened in the manga and in the guidebook

This is presupposing that it was erased in the first place which is what we are currently arguing about

You literally have the scene recorder, you can see it's gone

My bad, I meant the manga. You stated there was nothing left of it in the manga.

1. That's a negative, the BoP would be on the affirmative.

You would still need proof for that claim. That would not be a negative claim. Again, otherwise you could just state there was nothing left of any offscreen attack.

2. I have sufficient proof: the anime fully showing it being erase + the statements about its erasure + lack of any actual evidence contradicting this

All of these I have countered.

Why? Also, I have all the proof needed

No you don’t. And I already explain why above.

How so?

Because I am arguing that you can’t argue that there was nothing left without sufficient proof. That was not included in your dilemma.

Proof that I have brought

Again, just saying you brought proof without actually bringing it.

But part of my argument does and you are the one arguing against my args

Which part of your argument relies on the timeframe?

I meant the parallel the op is trying to draw. I don’t say shinigami don't usually focus on purifying holows. I just say the way it's presented seems pretty restrictive towards shinigami's other methods of killing hollows, which is what I break.

The OP is never restrictive towards shinigami’s methods of killing hollows though.

No? He uses being erased by a quincy as a removal from the soul cycle. Bot simply being erased

I know, but that’s not the point. The point is that he uses removal from the soul cycle and being erased interchangeably

Because it's too few to be them which is another clue that leads towards the quincy.

And? I never said there were no other clues.

It's still ee via conceptual manipulation at the very least. Which, again, is far more op than simple mere, even if we assume both of them only erase the same aspects.

Ee via conceptual manipulation wouldn’t magically allow it to erase more if it still has the same level of erasure in the end.

Yet you're trying to argue there are such people.

No I am not. I am trying to argue that it is reasonable to assume that a decent amount of people has access to haien.

I've been responding to your repetitive points about it for quite a while

I could say the same thing

The proof lies within the canon statements and the arm being fully shown to disappear with no debunk to them

The canon statement is contradicted by statements on the same level and higher levels of canon than it, and the arm is only shown to fully disappear in an anime-only scene.

No? Without statements you can't just claim ee in the first place. And right now, via this comparition, you are directly arguing it's offscreen

Saying there is absolutely nothing left is a statement, isn’t it? And no, I am not directly arguing it’s offscreen.

It's not a different version? Both the manga and the anime support the erasure and show nothing left from it and it is completely normal for the anime to have more frames than the manga

The manga does not show that there is nothing left.

Ok, a hado higher in the number than danku may have bypassed it had it not been aizen the one using it. How does that mean haien can bypass it?

Because one of your arguments was that haien could be blocked by danku because it blocks all hado below 89, but hado below 89 can bypass danku.

I see. There's also the nature part of their ranking. Like, if you ask me, I don't see how how hado 91 is better than kurohitsugi.

It could just be stronger, however that is not something that can apply to haien.

Haien is stated to be a flame. It's name also literally is abolition flame

Then why wouldn’t it be in the 30’s?

Your very argument against it that also uses the number of users is the interpretation of mayuri's words, which I repeatedly debunked.

Again, just saying you debunked it without actually debunking it

Spoiler: Summary

Basically, it’s pretty apparent that Mayuri’s statement is referring to the capability to erase hollows from existence, considering that is what he almost verbatim said right before saying “They are the only ones”. Not only is this supported my multiple other translations, but it would be grammatically incorrect otherwise. ItsMeat also never addressed any of the other proposals in the OP in his summary so I guess I don’t need to either. A way more detailed explanation for everything is above

Edit: he went back and addressed the rest of the proposals, so I guess I will also

The statement used as justification for haien being ee is contradicted by a later databook statement, which should obviously take precedence, considering it’s later and fits with the narrative more

Luppi stating grimmjow’s arm is gone wouldn’t support it being ee, as his arm could still be considered gone even if we take the interpretation that haien isn’t ee.

Orihime’s healing wasn’t considered above spatial and temporal regression simply because she was able to heal grimmjow’s arm, otherwise ulqiorra would’ve also though that her healing was above spatial and temporal regression, yet he though it could be either of those.

The guidebook statement that contradicts the haien ee one is a later one, which as I said should take precedence, and it is also not contradicted by the manga as I explain throughout all of my replies

We do not see grimmjow’s arm long enough in the manga to say whether there was anything left, and the anime would not be usable in this scenario as per the canon rules.

The translation of the later databook entry about haien that both me and the OP use is the most accurate one. The translation done by dattebayo was done from an inaccurate transcription, that replaced the kanji for ash with the kanji for hill, which explains why they did not mention reducing to ash in their translation. Seijisetto, a translation helper, did a translation afterwards off of the original scan, while also noting that reducing to ash would make more sense within the context of the kanji. There really is no reason why the translation used in this thread shouldn’t be.

The translation for Mayuri’s statement in the OP being unofficial doesn’t matter to any of the proposals, as the translation used aligns with the official translation anyways. The anime version of the statement also follows the same context, and would logically and grammatically have to as I explain further in depth in the first few paragraphs of the full response above.

Right before Mayuri says to the captains that they must know who the culprit is, he does actually mention erasure. His line is 魂魄を消滅させる, with 消滅 translating to erasure, and is actually the exact same kanji which is currently being used as proof for haien being ee in the first place. So the notion that erasure isn’t a relevant clue to the culprit, is not supported by the story

Nothing ever says or shows that it took 28k hollows for them to deduce who the culprit was. The erasure of the hollows was also happening extremely fast. The “minor ones in the past” very likely refer to uryu’s erasure of many hollows early in the series.

The cfyow statements are pretty clearly figurative and it is later clarified on the next page that tosen means that he wants his konpaku destroyed, which wouldn’t be ee.

Aizen’s passive ee is only confirmed to work against humans. Oken creation is not something Mayuri would know about, and is not ee that can be “used”. It simply turns a large amount of souls within a small radius into oken at once. It would take a big assumption to say that Mayuri would know about Ichibe’s strongest attack he rarely uses, as well as the function of it.

It was already previously explained in this thread by damage that Mayuri did not, in-fact, erase 28k soul reapers to balance out the hollows. He only killed them.

Existence erasure would remove somebody from the soul cycle, kubo himself uses being removed from the soul cycle and being erased from existence interchangeably. And there is no known ee within the verse that we know doesn’t remove from the soul cycle.

The problem with “randoms” having ee is that it would contradict the narrative, as explained throughout all of these responses.

The problem about Mayuri mentioning erasing hollows is that he quite literally states that “they are the only ones” in reference to the ability to do that. “They” obviously being quincies

Soifon’s suffers the same problem as yamamoto’s as well as the rest, the wording is vague and it contradicts the narrative.

Aizen’s mid-godly regen should not be kept due to the lack of reasonable ee that could’ve been performed on him. The only one is Ichibe, who obviously would not and did not come down to test his ee on aizen.

Aizen surviving after being absorbed doesn’t support him having mid-godly ee, and I’m not even sure that he was absorbed

I wasn’t aware of shaz domino’s mid-godly regen rating, but I also think that should be removed. It comes from a statement that he could destroy and regenerate his entire body, with no mention of existence erasure at all. Not to mention the part about his body being destroyed and regenerated is phrased as “if he could”, which means it’s not even a definite

 

[Billybobjoe321]

Bump

 

[AyOgUyS]

Agree with OP in everything

(Watch this thread become nothing but bumps for the next month)

 

[GTsek]

We need staff members here, could someone tag them?

 

[Mbpoops]

Agree (holy old)

 

[Hellscream]

I guarantee that 90% of these guys typing agree have not even read a single page

 

[ItsMeat]

I guarantee that 90% of these guys typing agree have not even read a single page

Exactly

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Bump.

 

[KingogKings777]

I guarantee that 90% of these guys typing agree have not even read a single page

My fellow JJK fans!?!?

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Bump.

 

[Godernet]

Spoiler: EE Definition on wiki

Existence Erasure is the simple power to remove something from existence, leaving nothing behind, a level of destruction beyond incineration, vaporization, and atomization. Rather than just reducing something to its constituent parts, this ability leaves absolutely nothing behind.

I would say Yamamoto’s EE is fine to remove, the statement on its own doesn’t isn’t really a confirmation or a limiter on him having EE, but it’s def not enough to rule out destruction on an atomic level either so the anime depicting it the way that it did makes it more logical to treat as not EE.

Haien has conflicting statements so I could have seen a possibly rating but Mayuri’s statement that only Quincy’s can erase a hollow for existence is pretty telling, like I get that not every Shinigami knows every single Hado but for him to say only Quincies are capable of this implies that at the very least an ability that could be in the standard skill set of any Shinigami shouldn’t be able to.

Soi Fons is a bit more valid statement wise tbh but even that could be interpreted as destruction beyond what is perceivable to a Shinigami so it would need something more to substantiate it being EE, I would almost be fine with keeping this as a possibly if other staff feel that way but I fully understand its removal.

So yeah, overall I’m fine with the removal of these three based on our standards for EE.

 

[Robo432343]

Spoiler: EE Definition on wiki

Existence Erasure is the simple power to remove something from existence, leaving nothing behind, a level of destruction beyond incineration, vaporization, and atomization. Rather than just reducing something to its constituent parts, this ability leaves absolutely nothing behind.

I would say Yamamoto’s EE is fine to remove, the statement on its own doesn’t isn’t really a confirmation or a limiter on him having EE, but it’s def not enough to rule out destruction on an atomic level either so the anime depicting it the way that it did makes it more logical to treat as not EE.

Haien has conflicting statements so I could have seen a possibly rating but Mayuri’s statement that only Quincy’s can erase a hollow for existence is pretty telling, like I get that not every Shinigami knows every single Hado but for him to say only Quincies are capable of this implies that at the very least an ability that could be in the standard skill set of any Shinigami shouldn’t be able to.

Soi Fons is a bit more valid statement wise tbh but even that could be interpreted as destruction beyond what is perceivable to a Shinigami so it would need something more to substantiate it being EE, I would almost be fine with keeping this as a possibly if other staff feel that way but I fully understand its removal.

So yeah, overall I’m fine with the removal of these three based on our standards for EE.

What do you think of Aizen's mid godly rating that's being debated here as well

 

[Godernet]

I saw some pushback on the Ichibei points and my TYBW knowledge is very rusty but correct me if I’m wrong, wasn’t it a plot point that barely anyone even knew Squad 0 existed, let alone knowledge of Ichibeis ability?

If that’s true then it’s a bit dubious to put him in the list of things that couldn’t kill Aizen, especially since it’s coming from a character not an omniscient WOG statement.

That being said if Haien, Yamamoto, and Soi Fon’s EE are removed, and Mugetsu is no longer considered a valid EE feat, and the only EE ability that Aizen could get mid godly off of is the possibility of Ichibei being in the equation then yeah I’m fine with its removal, assuming there isn’t another EE ability in the Soul Socieity I’m not taking into account.

 

[Damage3245]

I agree with Godernet's assessment of it.

 

[Deceived3596]

I would recommend placing an outdated tag on the profile in conjunction with removing the value, or leaving it alone and only placing the tag, either works really. It'll take time to create another thread to apply a different value and justification, so having a tag describing there is outdated information on his profile should help alleviate any potential misunderstandings in the meantime.

 

[Godernet]

I would recommend placing an outdated tag on the profile in conjunction with removing the value, or leaving it alone and only placing the tag, either works really. It'll take time to create another thread to apply a different value and justification, so having a tag describing there is outdated information on his profile should help alleviate any potential misunderstandings in the meantime.

That’s fine, so you think coming to a conclusion for where Aizen’s regen should be will require its own thread rather than something we can figure out here?

 

[Saqphire]

After 80 years…

I’ll apply changes later tonight

That’s fine, so you think coming to a conclusion for where Aizen’s regen should be will require its own thread rather than something we can figure out here?

Either it gets reverted to his previous rating or there’ll have to be a new thread deciding which regen he has

 

[Hellscream]

(Counters weren't able to be refuted at all btw)

 

[Billybobjoe321]

Either it gets reverted to his previous rating or there’ll have to be a new thread deciding which regen he has

Does there need to be an entirely different thread? Three mods in this thread already agreed on removing it, and I don’t think Ichibe is even currently accepted as justification for his mid-godly regen

 

[ItsMeat]

Does there need to be an entirely different thread? Three mods in this thread already agreed on removing it, and I don’t think Ichibe is even currently accepted as justification for his mid-godly regen

It wasn't proposed any other value for it in the OP, nor did the OP propose its removal

 

[Godernet]

In all fairness, while the Mid Godly wasn’t the focal point it was something the OP acknowledged would be subject to a change in justification based on how the rest of their OP was perceived, it’s just that the substitute argument for Mid-Godly Aizen based him being unkillable by the soul society, including Ichibei, hasn’t been well received.

I’d hate to leave something half done so I’m fine with finding a valid place for Aizen’s regen in this thread or shelving it for another thread where it can be the focal point.

 

[Deceived3596]

That’s fine, so you think coming to a conclusion for where Aizen’s regen should be will require its own thread rather than something we can figure out here?

I'd say so. It is possible for a value to be discussed here and agreed upon, but I believe a separate thread is better as more time can be placed within researching a new value, allowing time to craft better arguments for that position, which should result in a better and more definitive outcome. All the while decreasing the pressure to get it out quickly, as to not hold up an already long thread that should've been closed by now.

 

[Damage3245]

I think for the time being it can be reverted to his previous rating, and then someone can create a thread in their own time to address Aizen's regeneration rating if they think it needs changing.

 

[ItsMeat]

(Counters weren't able to be refuted at all btw)

Not even half of them if we're being honest

 

[Saqphire]

I think for the time being it can be reverted to his previous rating, and then someone can create a thread in their own time to address Aizen's regeneration rating if they think it needs changing.

Fairs. What… was his previous rating btw? For as long as I’ve been on this wiki, he has always had mid godly

In all fairness, while the Mid Godly wasn’t the focal point it was something the OP acknowledged would be subject to a change in justification based on how the rest of their OP was perceived, it’s just that the substitute argument for Mid-Godly Aizen based him being unkillable by the soul society, including Ichibei, hasn’t been well received.

Mhm thats basically why mid godly also gets nuked yeah

 

[ItsMeat]

Fairs. What… was his previous rating btw? For as long as I’ve been on this wiki, he has always had mid godly

Low godly before the mid godly blog was accepted…

 

[Saqphire]

Low godly before the mid godly blog was accepted…

What EE was he subject to to warrant this rating? Cuz Mugetsu was debunked months ago

 

[ichimojii]

I mean grimmjow isn't a full hollow and kubo recently did come out and say that arrancars the destruction of arrancar do not count towards the soul balance between realms like full hollows. So even with this interpretation it doesn't rule out hado 54 being erasure

I saw some pushback on the Ichibei points and my TYBW knowledge is very rusty but correct me if I’m wrong, wasn’t it a plot point that barely anyone even knew Squad 0 existed, let alone knowledge of Ichibeis ability?

If that’s true then it’s a bit dubious to put him in the list of things that couldn’t kill Aizen, especially since it’s coming from a character not an omniscient WOG statement.

That being said if Haien, Yamamoto, and Soi Fon’s EE are removed, and Mugetsu is no longer considered a valid EE feat, and the only EE ability that Aizen could get mid godly off of is the possibility of Ichibei being in the equation then yeah I’m fine with its removal, assuming there isn’t another EE ability in the Soul Socieity I’m not taking into account.

 

[Apotheosis69]

I mean grimmjow isn't a full hollow and kubo recently did come out and say that arrancars the destruction of arrancar do not count towards the soul balance between realms like full hollows. So even with this interpretation it doesn't rule out hado 54 being erasure

Arrancars are purely Hollows, its just that with their Mask off, they attain powers SIMILAR to that of Soul Reapers. Not that they Inherently Are that of Soul Reapers.

Please send a scan for that. And even then, that does not prove Haien is EE in the slightest. It is clear hyperbole

 

[Deceived3596]

It wouldn't be Low Godly if we accept that Mugetsu isn't EE anymore. Mid Godly uses the same argument as Low Godly but affirms additional qualities like mental erasure. If Mugetsu is no longer considered as Existence Erasure, it can't be used to justify Low Godly.

This is why I believe the rating should remain unchanged, and for an outdated tag to be applied on the profile instead. It'll require a whole set of new premises to replace it. That requires time, and saving this issue for a different thread allows us as supporters to discuss the situation and come up with a more detailed and evidenced resolution.

 

[ichimojii]

Arrancars are purely Hollows, its just that with their Mask off, they attain powers SIMILAR to that of Soul Reapers. Not that they Inherently Are that of Soul Reapers.

Please send a scan for that. And even then, that does not prove Haien is EE in the slightest. It is clear hyperbole

Here

"Q: 897. Many Arrancars were defeated during the Arrancar arc, but did this not upset the balance of souls between The World of the Living and Soul Society?
Kubo: The moment a Hollow becomes an Arrancar they are removed from the category of “vessels of balance” (a term that was proposed when the Soul Measurement Theory was completed, which coins The World of the Living, Soul Society and Hueco Mundo as one such vessel)."

Arrancars aren't normal hollows infact their more closer to Soul reapers. So grimmjow's arm getting erased doesn't conflict with mayuri's statement
It's not hyperbolic when it's stated and shown

 

[Godernet]

It wouldn't be Low Godly if we accept that Mugetsu isn't EE anymore. Mid Godly uses the same argument as Low Godly but affirms additional qualities like mental erasure. If Mugetsu is no longer considered as Existence Erasure, it can't be used to justify Low Godly.

This is why I believe the rating should remain unchanged, and for an outdated tag to be applied on the profile instead. It'll require a whole set of new premises to replace it. That requires time, and saving this issue for a different thread allows us as supporters to discuss the situation and come up with a more detailed and evidenced resolution.

This is fine by me. We can remove the EE from Yamamoto, Soi Fon, and Haien for now, like the OP wanted, and save where Aizen's regen should be moved to in a thread dedicated to that (and anyone else whose abilities are affected by Aizen's regen change)

If his previous justification doesn't work either, then this'll probably prolong the current thread even more, and since it's already been like 5 months for this thread and I definitely don't wanna just leave his regen justifications a mess for no reason (Kaguya flashbacks), we can and probably should hold this off for its own thread.

@Duedate8898 @Damage3245, is this ok with the two of you?

 

[Apotheosis69]

Here
"Q: 897. Many Arrancars were defeated during the Arrancar arc, but did this not upset the balance of souls between The World of the Living and Soul Society?
Kubo: The moment a Hollow becomes an Arrancar they are removed from the category of “vessels of balance” (a term that was proposed when the Soul Measurement Theory was completed, which coins The World of the Living, Soul Society and Hueco Mundo as one such vessel)."

I was asking for a link for an image for the QnA... Even then, they were defeated by Soul Reapers. Who don't upset the balance at all. Only Quincies do that

That scene is also strange as since Cirucci's Saketsu was pierced, the very source of their powers. Yet she can still use her Arrancar power and Resurreccion afterwards, in TYBW and CFYOW.

Arrancars aren't normal hollows infact their more closer to Soul reapers. So grimmjow's arm getting erased doesn't conflict with mayuri's statement
It's not hyperbolic when it's stated and shown

Grimmjow's arm was not Erased. it was just burnt to ash.

Even then the Thread is accepted, and Grace has already been passed. Not sure why this is being discussed, that's my B.

 

[ichimojii]

I was asking for a link for an image for that... Even then, they were defeated by Soul Reapers. Who don't upset the balance at all. Only Quincies do that

It's on klub-outside.com which only members can get in. Soul reapers can upset the balance by purifying too many hollows sending them to soul society. They killed a lot of high level arrancars who hold millions of souls. So that should have a affect on the balance. However kubo said they don't affect it once they became arrancars which are close to that of Soul Reapers. It's also stated in unmasked that arrancar are more like soul reapers.

That scene is also strange as since Cirucci's Saketsu was pierced, the very source of their powers. Yet she can still use her Arrancar power and Resurreccion afterwards.

She was killed by rudobone before her powers fadded. Afterwards her corpse was the preserved by Szayel .Mayrui later found her corpse and Resurreccion her into zombie.

Grimmjow's arm was not Erased. it was just burnt to ash.

Even then the Thread is accepted, and Grace has already been passed. Not sure why this is being discussed, that's my B.

That doesn't mean you debunked my argument. You cling on to a hyperliteral statement by mayuri who is known to exaggerate at times. Even if the statement is true grimmjow is not a normal hollow to the point where he doesn't even affect the soul balance

 

[Peterdenman156]

I was asking for a link for an image for the QnA...

This is what you wanted