Chaotic Honkai Verse Upgrade (1-A & L1-A)

[SuperNova55555]

HSR made it clear that primordial chaos is the structure that gave birth to the tree and not the tree.

And I’m saying that the Tree in Hi3 includes Imaginary Space whilst the one in HSR is only Real Space because they literally CONTRADICT each other.

 

[Weaver261]

And in Hi3 the tree is said to grow from the SoQ. I believe Imaginary Space too.

We are 15 pages deep and bro is still saying this. I wanna die T - T
It's mistranslation from EN localization. CN only said the tree is beneath the sea, you can see it in my summaries.

Proof? All we know is the sea's time is messy. Not that it inherited it from the tree or the worlds entering it.

What are you even saying? The text from Hi3 chapter 37 already explictily explained that SoQ didn't have time originally untill it made contact with the worlds on the tree.

Here in the Sea of Quanta, there are no rules, no boundaries, and no limitations.
It has existed since the creation of the universe, but most of the time, it was just as barren as when the universe was created.
After a long time, it established a coincidental connection with the planets of the real world.
This connection, or rather, Symmetry Breaking, created the concept of time in the originally empty Sea of Quanta.

 

[Mbpoops]

Since imaginary space/chaos is the origin of the tree both in HSR and Hi3, the tree that's in rivalry with the sea should only be real space part. no?

Please dont tell me you’re saying real space is rivaling the soq. Please tell me im just misunderstanding the text

 

[SuperNova55555]

We are 15 pages deep and bro is still saying this. I wanna die T - T
It's mistranslation from EN localization. CN only said the sea is beneath the sea, you can see it in my summaries.

Nono. You’re misunderstanding him. The physical universe is born from IS, we accept that. But IS itself is the thing in rivalry with the SoQ. Not born of it, but the Universe + IT is in rivalry with SoQ.

 

[Weaver261]

And I’m saying that the Tree in Hi3 includes Imaginary Space whilst the one in HSR is only Real Space because they literally CONTRADICT each other.

Okay, then let's do this instead.
Durandal stated that Imaginary space is the origin of the universe and not the tree. But we know that Universe contains both the tree and the sea from Otto's statement.
And these two don't contradict each other. HSR stated the tree grows from primordial chaos. These three still don't contradict with each other yet.

The confusing part came from Immortal blades and beyond will chapters where they refered The tree as a realm beyond reality and interchangeable with the imaginary space.

but the Universe + IT is in rivalry with SoQ.

This is contradicted FRA.

 

[Mbpoops]

Okay, then let's do this instead.
Durandal stated that Imaginary space is the origin of the universe and not the tree. But we know that Universe contains both the tree and the sea from Otto's statement.

Im gonna stop you right there

 

[Weaver261]

Im gonna stop you right there

"Universe" here is just refering to a leaf world by context. Unless you want to say there's other universes beside current one with infinite MWI

In fact, you should regard it as a "cornerstone" that does not belong to a "single universe", a "medium" where many worlds of countless possibilities exist.

 

[Mbpoops]

"Universe" here is just refering to a leaf world by context. Unless you want to say there's other universes beside current one with infinite MWI

We know the soq isnt apart of the real universe tho aswell as the imaginary tree so they arent apart of the universe. The universe is apart of the tree while the tree rivals the sea

 

[Weaver261]

The universe is apart of the tree while the tree rivals the sea

"The Tree and Sea are alone in the Universe. Thus began their never-ending rivalry."

Let me stop you here

 

[Mbpoops]

Let me stop you here

Ok now what is “the universe” because we know it cant be talking about the hsr universe since both structures are higher dimensional.

 

[Weaver261]

Ok now what is “the universe” because we know it cant be talking about the hsr universe since both structures are higher dimensional.

It can be HSR universe since HSR Universe is literally honkai cosmology. It has the tree, the sea (mentioned in an item) and aeons. Hi3 world is just a world on HSR Universe. I don't know where you are going with this

 

[Mbpoops]

It can be HSR universe since HSR Universe is literally honkai cosmology. It has the tree, the sea (mentioned in an item) and aeons. Hi3 world is just a world on HSR Universe. I don't know where you are going with this

So you’re basically saying that the cosmology caps at 4D because the universe (real space) is explicitly 4D. Agree Fra delete the verse

 

[SuperNova55555]

No because it literally only refers to the physical world lol. Even dudu VN calls the Real Space of IT as the “Universe”.

You cant js alter interpretations (wrongly, too) just to push scaling agenda.

 

[Weaver261]

So you’re basically saying that the cosmology caps at 4D because the universe (real space) is explicitly 4D. Agree Fra delete the verse

When did I said that? don't put words into my mouth. Universe isn't just real space. According to otto's word, it contains both the tree and the sea. We literally saw that universe's real space time (reality) is seperated from the path space in 3.7 story. What's your proof of Universe being just real space 4D???

 

[Mbpoops]

No because it literally only refers to the physical world lol. Even dudu VN calls the Real Space of IT as the “Universe”.

You cant js alter interpretations (wrongly, too) just to push scaling agenda.

Nope guys the imaginary tree and sea of quanta (which are both 11D (10 spatial + 1 temporal)) come together to make up the hsr universe (4D (3 spatial + 1 time)). Agree FRA

 

[Weaver261]

No because it literally only refers to the physical world lol. Even dudu VN calls the Real Space of IT as the “Universe”.

The word doesn't describe everything. That's nominal fallacy. It depends a lot on context. In the same group of dialogues, Iron mask said this. And this also said "universe". But we know it's refering to a leaf world as explained in later parts of the sentence.

In fact, you should regard it as a "cornerstone" that does not belong to a "single universe", a "medium" where many worlds of countless possibilities exist.

 

[Mbpoops]

When did I said that? don't put words into my mouth. Universe isn't just real space.

No the universe IS just real space they make an actual effort to seperate reality from the tree IS and soq in hi3

According to otto's word, it contains both the tree and the sea. We literally saw that universe's real space time (reality) is seperated from the path space in 3.7 story.

It just says they are “alone in the universe” but what does that even mean when we know theres other beings and structures in the hsr universe so it cant be talking abt the hsr universe, its most likely just some higher dimensional space they make up not the hsr universe

What's your proof of Universe being just real space 4D???

Agree FRA

 

[Weaver261]

It just says they are “alone in the universe” but what does that even mean when we know theres other beings and structures in the hsr universe so it cant be talking abt the hsr universe, its most likely just some higher dimensional space they make up not the hsr universe

Do you want to elaborate upon what you meant by "other beings and structures in HSR Universe"??? Not that it matters much to current topic tho.

Agree FRA

Disagree FRB

The word doesn't describe everything. That's nominal fallacy. It depends a lot on context. In the same group of dialogues, Iron mask said this. And this also said "universe". But we know it's refering to a leaf world as explained in later parts of the sentence.

 

[Mbpoops]

Do you want to elaborate upon what you meant by "other beings and structures in HSR Universe"??? Not that it matters much to current topic tho.

Aeons? Alien space? Unless you wanna say pathspace and alien space > tree/sea then this whole “the tree and sea make up the universe” argument makes no sense

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Disagree with opposition FRB

 

[SuperNova55555]

The word doesn't describe everything. That's nominal fallacy. It depends a lot on context. In the same group of dialogues, Iron mask said this. And this also said "universe". But we know it's refering to a leaf world as explained in later parts of the sentence.

Mind you:

But if you wanna say terminology is inconsistent, that’s fine by me. It just means we can’t trust most of these relations you’re proposing.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

I had this massive paragraph typed up but whatever.

Here.

Imaginary Space exists in infinite amounts OUTSIDE of regular four dimensional space. As said in the second paragraph. This means it is NOT a part of the universe. Hell, it even proves Imaginary Space, the SoQ and the Imaginary Tree are higher dimensional structures by virtue of being unordered. The Tree itself is still dangerous to be on, as Durandal and Otto show.

Real Space is 'the only space able to produce any sort of meaning' and that the 'constant relationship(s)' between objects only exists in a 'single space' which is 'also the four dimensional space around us (the only space of real numbers)'

This proves base reality in Hi3 and HSR is 4D.

The way the tree ACTUALLY works:
The Tree holds the worlds in its leaves. Accepted. Simple.
Between the leaves held on the Infinite Tree is Imaginary Space, between the branches, where 4D reality is at its most unstable (just like in Nagazora, curtesy of the Third Eruption). This is because the Tree holds all worlds and is the most stable because 4D base reality can only exist in leaves on the Tree.
This directly parallels the Imaginary Intertidal Zones in both Hi3 and HSR. Imaginary Space and Imaginary Intertidal Zones are repeatedly described as chaotic.

In Nagazora, both the Sea (quantum shadows are leaking in) and Imaginary Space (explicitly stated) is leaking into 4D reality. As stated if not sealed the world would've been destroyed.
Durandal also visits Imaginary Space to reach the Imaginary Tree itself to connect her bubble world to it in Hi3.

The Imaginary Tree and Imaginary Space's properties form the 4D reality of HSR and the various anomalies we see like the Imaginary Intertidal Zones. The Imaginary Intertidal Zones are where reality is weakest and Imaginary Energy is leaking in, like in Nagazora. Hence why it's chaotic and you need extenuating factors to travel through it. (Dudu's bubble world, Emanator status, special travel means).

Hell the scan above even refers to the physical plane
It's obvious the tree, sea and img space aren't part of the physical plane aka HSR's universe.

 

[Weaver261]

It's obvious the tree, sea and img space aren't part of the physical plane aka HSR's universe.

Terminology is so ass just like the localization T - T
In above scan, they literally said "Remembrance can reconstruct entire universe" as well as Cyrene saying Irontomb destruction affects real space time implying path space isn't.

"I see endless 'memories' floating in the starry skies. They are the consciousnesses of the victims. In the cosmos's real space-time, they'll be stained by the Destruction in the next second."

HSR World setting contains real space, path space, hi3 world, imaginary space likely. In this context about Irontomb formatting physical plane, they are talking about real space part of "universe". But actual HSR universe aka cosmo contains not just real space time according to Cyrene. No?

I do agree that imaginary space isn't part of physical plane. HI3 described imaginary tree both as a medium like SoQ and the origin of universe (medium) Since Otto's talk about tree rivaling the sea is only about the medium and not the origin of the medium, we should seperate these two in this context. Thus, the origin isn't in rivlary with SoQ

Firstly, as you know, the Sea of Quanta is not a real sea. It does not belong on a particular planet, nor is it made of liquid substances like water.
To make it easier to understand, you can liken it to a foundation similar to the Imaginary Tree, a medium that can carry all sorts of parallel worlds.

"Time flows in the trunk of the Imaginary Tree and branches out into an infinity of worlds."
"Every branch is a form of civilization. Every bud is their past and present etched onto the dimension of time.

 

[SuperNova55555]

HSR World setting contains real space, path space, hi3 world, imaginary space likely. In this context about Irontomb formatting physical plane, they are talking about real space part of "universe". But actual HSR universe aka cosmo contains not just real space time according to Cyrene. No?

By the way, that “physical plane” is in reference to the Tree itself.

So “universe” means whatever is contextually necessary. In the case of Imaginary Space/Imaginary Tree, “universe” is in reference to the Proper World or Real Space.

 

[Weaver261]

By the way, that “physical plane” is in reference to the Tree itself.

No this scan doesn't say that. It only says universe = tree which we already knew from zandar's theory. That's also otto's tree analogy is. So the rivalry stuff is also strictly physical plane according to you. No?

So “universe” means whatever is contextually necessary

It's not just the term of "universe", the term "imaginary tree" is also used loosely in different contexts as I have proved above

I do agree that imaginary space isn't part of physical plane. HI3 described imaginary tree both as a medium like SoQ and the origin of universe (medium) Since Otto's talk about tree rivaling the sea is only about the medium and not the origin of the medium, we should seperate these two in this context. Thus, the origin isn't in rivlary with SoQ

If I am not mistaken, you and I both agree that the tree is just physical plane. Imaginary space and primordial chaos is the origin of it. If you want to say tree is just physical plane, then you can't say imaginary space is delimited to dimensional structure of the tree since these two are different things.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Terminology is so ass just like the localization T - T
In above scan, they literally said "Remembrance can reconstruct entire universe" as well as Cyrene saying Irontomb destruction affects real space time implying path space isn't.

Lets be real path space is an Imaginary Space but not THE Imaginary Space. It likely is higher dimensional but exhibits nothing like the Imaginary Space we know.

HSR World setting contains real space, path space, hi3 world, imaginary space likely. In this context about Irontomb formatting physical plane, they are talking about real space part of "universe". But actual HSR universe aka cosmo contains not just real space time according to Cyrene. No?

This explicitly defines the physical plane as the universe. My scan is ALSO clear about this. The universe ONLY contains 4D space. Cyrene is wrong if she tries to argue otherwise. She's in no position to be knowledgeable about this, she's been in the inter-astral equivalent of a black box for millions upon millions of years. Hoyo consistently uses characters being oblivious to mislead the reader too.
What you're doing is conflating the universe term. To them the universe IS just Real Space. To us it's everything inside of HSR. You can't use Cyrene saying 'the entire universe' to mean outside of Real Space because that's clearly not what she'd mean or know by her character's limits.

I do agree that imaginary space isn't part of physical plane. HI3 described imaginary tree both as a medium like SoQ and the origin of universe (medium) Since Otto's talk about tree rivaling the sea is only about the medium and not the origin of the medium, we should seperate these two in this context. Thus, the origin isn't in rivlary with SoQ

It didn't describe the Imaginary Space as the origin of the universe. It described the Imaginary Singularity, the Cocoon, as the origin of all dimensions. If you want to connect the Primordial Sea to the Imaginary Space, fine, but I want to make it very, very clear that your argument is horribly difficult to track because of how much redefining has been done. First you argue the Primordial Sea is the SoQ on page 1, now you're arguing for Imaginary Space being the Primordial Sea the Tree was birthed from (despite nothing being able to exist there) because it's similar to the Primordial Sea and is the 'origin of all dimensions and the imaginary singularity' (despite the Cocoon being the imaginary singularity, I believe the Herrscher cores being the imaginary singularities as stated earlier on in Kolosten is a misunderstanding and changed as Eins, Tesla and Nagamitsu learned of the Cocoon itself).

This CRT is no longer clear and after nearly a month, several redefinitions and 15 pages, it's a confusing mess to argue.

Yes, as Schrodinger describes in Chapter 32, both the Sea and Tree are mediums, but it doesn't mean their rivalry is limited to being mediums. The origin of the Tree being Imaginary Space? Doesn't really matter. They're explicitly equal via feeding Honkai Energy off of each other. Imaginary Energy is Honkai Energy and via this scan the Sea specifically uses Honkai Energy.

And even still any connection Su's higher realm has to this is unproven and doesn't have enough info to be the Primordial Sea and thus 'a higher realm'.

 

[Vietthai96]

Primordial Sea is just the Sea of Quanta, cause shit originated from it (thus the term primordial), it is also called Primordial Chaos cause its chaotic nature, just that. What the hell happened to Honkai lore these days?

 

[SuperNova55555]

No this scan doesn't say that. It only says universe = tree which we already knew from zandar's theory. That's also otto's tree analogy is. So the rivalry stuff is also strictly physical plane according to you. No?

Oh my god no. The Tree here is used in the context of the previous scan:

Mind you:

But if you wanna say terminology is inconsistent, that’s fine by me. It just means we can’t trust most of these relations you’re proposing.

Which explicitly refers to the physical realm lol. That’s the whole point.

 

[Weaver261]

Lets be real path space is an Imaginary Space but not THE Imaginary Space. It likely is higher dimensional but exhibits nothing like the Imaginary Space we know.

Tbf, there's nothing that explicitly confirm path space = imaginary space but not that it matters much in this topic.

What you're doing is conflating the universe term. To them the universe IS just Real Space. To us it's everything inside of HSR. You can't use Cyrene saying 'the entire universe' to mean outside of Real Space because that's clearly not what she'd mean or know by her character's limits.

She said as she stands in path space which shouldn't be real space time of cosmo since she is refering to that as different object. This imply cosmo doesn't contains just real space but also path space and others.

I see endless 'memories' floating in the starry skies. They are the consciousnesses of the victims. In the cosmos's real space-time, they'll be stained by the Destruction in the next second."

didn't describe the Imaginary Space as the origin of the universe.

Yes it did.

Durandal: Imaginary Space…

Durandal: The Overseer said that this is the origin of the universe and where all laws intertwine.

First you argue the Primordial Sea is the SoQ on page 1, now you're arguing for Imaginary Space being the Primordial Sea

I already admitted that my OP is suck. I can be wrong and learn new things as the crt progres

This CRT is no longer clear and after nearly a month, several redefinitions and 15 pages, it's a confusing mess to argue.

I also have been thinking to start everything anew with new crt lately.

Primordial Sea is just the Sea of Quanta, cause shit originated from it (thus the term primordial), it is also called Primordial Chaos cause its chaotic nature, just that. What the hell happened to Honkai lore these days?

Shit didn't originated from SoQ really. Shit originated from Primordial Chaos and Imaginary space. I think you are still on the OP which I wrote very very wrongly. I am really sorry for that

 

[Weaver261]

Oh my god no. The Tree here is used in the context of the previous scan:

You are saying tree is universe and universe is physical plane, thus tree is physical plane. Am I getting it right?
No matter what you says, if you agree that tree is just physical plane, it is automatically seperated from the imaginary space which is the origin of the universe. Thus, you can no longer argue Imaginary space is in rivalry with the sea

 

[Vietthai96]

??, like the Imaginary Tree is Imaginary Space + Real Space?, literally the real space is just talking about leaf worlds which separated by Imaginary Space, the Leaf world grow from the Tree = Tree is the origin of universe, Tree = Imaginary Space so IS is the origin of the universe

The Tree grow from the Sea is pretty much established in HI3rd

 

[Weaver261]

the Leaf world grow from the Tree = Tree is the origin of universe

Not really. The tree is described as a medium instead of an origin void like Imaginary Space.

Firstly, as you know, the Sea of Quanta is not a real sea. It does not belong on a particular planet, nor is it made of liquid substances like water.
To make it easier to understand, you can liken it to a foundation similar to the Imaginary Tree, a medium that can carry all sorts of parallel worlds.

The Tree grow from the Sea is pretty much established in HI3rd

Again T - T....that's a mistranslation. The original CN text only said The sea is beneath the tree.

“在树下, 是一片广袤的海, 它的深度无法探测, 它的边界不可触及”
Beneath the tree lies a vast sea, its depths immeasurable, its boundaries beyond reach.

 

[Vietthai96]

Not really. The tree is described as a medium instead of an origin void like Imaginary Space

The Leaf literally grow from the Tree's branch?. Or you want to tell me that IS is some kind of separate space that somehow grow the world but those world is magically appear on the Tree branch??

Again T - T....that's a mistranslation. The original CN text only said The sea is beneath the tree.

Where is this text come from?

 

[SuperNova55555]

You are saying tree is universe and universe is physical plane, thus tree is physical plane. Am I getting it right?
No matter what you says, if you agree that tree is just physical plane, it is automatically seperated from the imaginary space which is the origin of the universe. Thus, you can no longer argue Imaginary space is in rivalry with the sea

I am saying that HSR CONTRADICTS it. It’s only the physical plane in HSR but it is both physical + imaginary plane in Hi3.

 

[Weaver261]

The Leaf literally grow from the Tree's branch?. Or you want to tell me that IS is some kind of separate space that somehow grow the world but those world is magically appear on the Tree branch??

It's true that tree is the place where leaf worlds are born but the tree itself is born from the primordial chaos. Unlike Imaginary tree which is described as a medium like SoQ, imaginary space is described as a void and origin of universe. But tree is also sometimes used interchangbly with the imaginary space and that's causing the confusion.

Where is this text come from?

Thunder over nagazora chapter.
EN Localized

"The Tree emerged from an endless Sea of unfathomable depths and boundaries."

and original is as I've provided above.

 

[Weaver261]

it is both physical + imaginary plane in Hi3.

How do you prove it though? Because immortal blades chapter said "imaginary space is within the realm of imaginary tree"? But this has nothing to do with Otto's eariler dialogue about SoQ Rivalry with the tree where he only talks about real space aspect of it.

Not to even mention that tree in HSR doesn't absorb anything from SoQ but rather Imaginary energy in its own trunk to create new leaf worlds. EN localization is a bit wrong about this but more or less the same.

The crown of the tree remains in a dynamic state as it absorbs the masterless Imaginary Energy from the space-time vasculature of the trunk. New shoots grow, withered leaves fall, and endless births and deaths occur among the countless universes.

 

[SuperNova55555]

How do you prove it though? Because immortal blades chapter said "imaginary space is within the realm of imaginary tree"? But this has nothing to do with Otto's eariler dialogue about SoQ Rivalry with the tree where he only talks about real space aspect of it.

Not to even mention that tree in HSR doesn't absorb anything from SoQ but rather Imaginary energy in its own trunk to create new leaf worlds. EN localization is a bit wrong about this but more or less the same.

And I’m not saying that HSR Tree grows from the SoQ. It grows from Imaginary Space, just like how Hi3 Universe grows from Hi3 Tree.

I’m saying HSR Tree = Hi3 Universe
And Hi3 Tree = Imaginary Space
Imaginary Space seeps energy from the SoQ, and the Universe grows through Imaginary Space.

 

[Weaver261]

And Hi3 Tree = Imaginary Space

Okay then why Hi3 stated these??

"Time flows in the trunk of the Imaginary Tree and branches out into an infinity of worlds."
"Every branch is a form of civilization. Every bud is their past and present etched onto the dimension of time.

To make it easier to understand, you can liken it to a foundation similar to the Imaginary Tree, a medium that can carry all sorts of parallel universes.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

This is my advice regarding this topic and this work. I personally have experience with this type of series.

This work caps at Low 1-C, and all of its characters do not exceed planetary level, or at most solar system level, and with exaggeration, the strongest character could be considered galaxy level. As for the absolute strongest character in the entire work, they would be Low 1-C.

This is advice from someone who is familiar with this work and this type of series, with many years of experience—this is my stance.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Okay then why Hi3 stated these??

Hi3 makes it clear that it’s just an analogy for some higher-dimensional structure which holds the worlds (ergo, medium).

But for HSR, it just has the Tree as the present and the physical universe.
That’s all.

This is my advice regarding this topic and this work. I personally have experience with this type of series.

This work caps at Low 1-C, and all of its characters do not exceed planetary level, or at most solar system level, and with exaggeration, the strongest character could be considered galaxy level. As for the absolute strongest character in the entire work, they would be Low 1-C.

This is advice from someone who is familiar with this work and this type of series, with many years of experience—this is my stance.

Lord Azerty