Marvel CM 1 Problems

[Robo432343]

Currently magic users in Marvel such as Basic Magic users have abilities like type 1 conceptual manipulation, plot manipulation, and other abilities. I have no problems with the nature of magic itself being a type 1 concept but my issue lies with the fact that these characters are getting concept hax simply because their powers have magic in it. Simply using magical spells or using an ability that stem from magic should not grant type 1 CM. Juggernaut recently got type 1 conceptual manipulation for this exact reason indirectly. For these characters to actually get type 1 concept hax, there needs to be evidence that they can actually shape the fundamental nature of magic itself and change the rules of magic. Just anything directly affecting concepts via magic is fine but simply casting a basic spell or using magical attacks does not reflect this at all. The frustrating thing is that even the magic page admits that basic magic users are users who are never even shown using any spells besides basic blasts. They did not change the nature of magic at all or anything like that. None of the basic magic users have manipulated magic in a way that allows them to affect concepts and we're supposed to believe they can do something like this all because they casted a magical spell or that their powers have magic in it. Some examples of blatant conceptual manipulation in Marvel via magic is in Wiccan's profile like how It was stated that Demiurge will rewrite the laws of magic and define all magic in the future. I am not seeing anything remotely close to this from many of the magic users.

Another ability that i have problems with is many magic users having plot manipulation. Many of the magic users have not showcased the ability to manipulate the plot but they just have it because magic is involved. Not really sure how Juggernaut having magical powers somehow means he has plot manipulation.

If there is no evidence that the characters can directly affect concepts or plot with their magic or if their is no evidence that they can actually change the nature of magic then conceptual manipulation and plot manipulation for many of the magic users need to go. These are the basic magic users currently:
Abomination
Agatha Harkness
Amadeus Cho Hulk
Angela
Apocalypse
Black Knight
Blackheart
Colossus
Ghost Rider
Hallows' Eve
Hela
Hulk
Invisible Woman
Jane Froster
Jean Grey
Juggernaut
Khonshu
Kraven the Hunter
Mephisto
Mindless Ones
Moon Knight
Nico Minoru
Nyx
Odin
Pluto
Red Hulk
Red She-Hulk
Marduk Kurios
Satannish
She-Hulk
Skaar
The Stranger
Surtur
Thor
Those Who Sit Above In Shadow
Tyr Odinson
White Fox
Zeus

Edit: After some discussion I think it's better for all profiles of magic users to have the respective feats that they have accomplished via magic listed as such is the purpose of an indexing site, Since Haxes like Plot or Concept are very versatile in nature covering many possible applications I think it's best to have the necessary feats listed so that one can determine the scope, applicability, usage and limitations of the magic users that possess such versatile hax. If a magic user doesn't have the feat at all then it should be removed.

New Proposal

• Agree with the new proposal: @Planck69 @KingTempest @LephyrTheRevanchist @FinePoint @Elizhaa
• Agree: @Antvasima
• Disagree with everything: @Theglassman12

Edit 2: It's being discussed that the nature of magic section should not have Paraconsistent Physiology and Nonexistent Physiology due to it being outdated
- Neutral on the Paraconsistent and NEP stuff: @Planck69

 

[Hecky2222]

I would note also PP from them outdated af and shouldn't qualify also with our standards

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

I would also note that magic doesn’t qualify for NEP, as there is no statement saying that magic is in a state of nonexistence. Also, the statement “the realm of mind and spirit that exists between being and non-being” should instead be “the realm of nonexistence that exists between being and non-being” in order to qualify for it.

 

[SuperNova55555]

I would note also PP from them outdated af and shouldn't qualify also with our standards

I would also note that magic doesn’t qualify for NEP, as there is no statement saying that magic is in a state of nonexistence. Also, the statement “the realm of mind and spirit that exists between being and non-being” should instead be “the realm of nonexistence that exists between being and non-being” in order to qualify for it.

Yaaay, I don’t have to do a thread about this myself.

I also recall Magic being denied Logic Manip for not fulfilling the wiki’s strict reqs and the logic for that naturally overextends to PP. Same thing should be applied here too I’d reckon.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

what about nonduality

Only ND Type 1 due to nonexistence and existence.

 

[Eseseso]

Currently magic users in Marvel and even basic magic users abilities have type 1 conceptual manipulation. I have no problems with the nature of magic itself being a type 1 concept but my issue lies with the fact that these characters are getting concept hax simply because their powers have magic in it. Simply using magical spells or using an ability that stem from magic should not grant type 1 CM. Juggernaut recently got type 1 conceptual manipulation for this exact reason indirectly. For these characters to actually get type 1 concept hax, there needs to be evidence that they can actually shape the fundamental nature of magic itself and change the rules of magic. Just anything directly affecting concepts via magic is fine but simply casting a basic spell or using magical attacks does not reflect this at all. The frustrating thing is that even the magic page admits that basic magic users are users who are never even shown using any spells besides basic blasts. They did not change the nature of magic at all or anything like that. None of the basic magic users have manipulated magic in a way that allows them to affect concepts and we're supposed to believe they can do something like this all because they casted a magical spell or that their powers have magic in it. Some examples of blatant conceptual manipulation in Marvel via magic is in Wiccan's profile like how It was stated that Demiurge will rewrite the laws of magic and define all magic in the future. I am not seeing anything remotely close to this from many of the magic users.

Another ability that i have problems with is many magic users having plot manipulation. Many of the magic users have not showcased the ability to manipulate the plot but they just have it because magic is involved.

If these is no evidence that the characters can directly affect concepts or plot with their magic or if their is no evidence that they can actually change the nature of magic then conceptual manipulation and plot manipulation for many of the magic users need to go. Some examples include Mindless Ones, rest of the Gamma Mutates, Ghost Rider, Juggernaut. There are probably a lot of other character who i haven't listed but type 1 CM and plot stuff for the Master Sorcerers, Sorcerer Supremes and 'All forms of magic' characters should stay.

Edit: It's being discussed that the nature of magic section should not have Paraconsistent Physiology and Nonexistent Physiology due to it being outdated

1. Magic has CM1 for the very same reason, if not a much better reason, than many other similar energy systems on the site. So if anything it's more an issue with CM1 as a whole since Marvel magic is the manipulation of a blatant Type 1 concept.

2. If nothing else, magic can affect and destroy souls, which are Type 1 concepts.

3. For conceptual stuff and proof of basic magic altering Eternity at its core:

Magic is even stated to be a conceptual system that allows an individual to control the natural world (including events, objects, people, and physical phenomena).Magic is also simultaneously outside the concepts of logic yet can also replace them. Magic turns symbols and metaphors into the true reality. "Magic is taking a thought and making it real. Taking a lie and making it the truth. Telling a story to the universe so utterly, cosmically perfect that for a single, shining moment... the world believes a man can fly ", and those stories that become magic then echo through space and time back to the start of all things, mixing with the All-That-Was and sparking something new, such as the mythical Gods of the Marvel Universe as well as the 10 Norse Realms (each of which is its own universe), becoming so big and mad and brilliant that they go back in time and change other stories, especially as "maybes" and "might-bes" such as "I dunno.", "I can't remember.", and "What if?" are just magic words that make anything possible. In further support of this, magic at its core is stated to be the practice of making the universe bend to one's will by speaking words of power, and magic is stated again to be just a way of telling the universe to bend to your will. Dormammu himself, a being described as a literal concept, is made from a combination of the magical Flames of the Faltine as well as the mystical energies of the Dark Dimension, further establishing the conceptual nature of magic. This notion of magic being connected to the laws of the universe is further stated as such: "The first step to mastering the Arcane Arts is recognizing the patters that others don't see. (...) The second step to mastering the Arcane Arts is recognizing that patterns can change", with the patterns in question largely including the laws and concepts of the universe. For example, a pattern noted is the standard numerical pattern of "1,2,3,4", but the scan notes that to change the pattern is to change it to "1,2,3, π". In higher realms, magic force is all that matters, and in higher dimensions, magic supersedes physical laws and is the only energetic medium that can affect change. Wielding magic means using your mind to warp primal forces.
Also, sorcerers manipulate universal forces, and mystical chains can wrap around and seal away a dimensional portal that was literally stated to be a concept and not a physical actuality, with Hulk using those same chains to reseal the portal. Also, only mystic beings and users of sorcery (such as the Puffball Collective) can perceive the conceptual portal. The portal is also described as "sorcererous", or magical, in nature (which makes sense given it is a portal to the mystical Crossroads), further supporting the conceptual nature of magic. Spells are ideas that turn belief into power, and magic is simply "ideas people choose to believe. Stories with soul".

4. For plot stuff:

Also, Doctor Doom tells Loki that magic is essentially a higher narrative into the flow of events, imposing a narrative upon reality, imposing a story, a fiction into reality and willing it to become true. To be a creature of magic is to be a creature of story. Right after this, he states that he himself is a creature of magic, which makes him a creature of story. The nature of magic being tightly connected to that of stories is also greatly explored here. As mentioned above, the Gods themselves are stated to be stories so good that they became magic, and those stories proceeded to echo through space and time back to the start of all things, mixing with the All-That-Was and sparking something new, such as the mythical Gods of the Marvel Universe as well as the 10 Norse Realms (each of which is its own universe), becoming so big and mad and brilliant that they go back in time and change other stories. Magic is symbol and metaphor, and can be contained within metaphorical stories while in itself contain possible questions, such as "What if the future was unwritten, the present uncontained? What if we could go anywhere, do anything, be anyone? What if we were free? What couldn't we do, on the day all our cages open? What does the bridge to anywhere look like?". Stories turn moments into power--moments like this--and a teller of tales can harness that power, even in the moment.

5. As for PP and NEP, this should be pretty straight forward. The Magick Realm, a realm where all dualities come together and cease to exist, is stated to be made of magic entirely (and the Living Tribunal flat out calls it the magical universe where the Vishanti and such reside), which means magic is what makes up a realm outside of duality as a whole. Supporting it is the statement that magic is the in-between, the fraying edge between reality and unreality.

Especially given this description of Type 2 PP:
This includes characters existing in a nondual state regarding all logical dual systems within an entire level of reality in a way that makes them occupy both or neither state of the dualities in question.

 

[Robo432343]

1. Magic has CM1 for the very same reason, if not a much better reason, than many other similar energy systems on the site. So if anything it's more an issue with CM1 as a whole since Marvel magic is the manipulation of a blatant Type 1 concept.

I don't think its a problem with CM 1 as a whole. If characters are just getting type 1 concept hax for simply using an ability that comes from it instead of manipulating the actual concept then it should just be axed. You showed that magic is a type 1 concept which is perfectly fine but the problem is that so many characters that use magic are getting all these powerful abilities when many of them have not showcased the power to alter the concept itself like this at all

 

[SuperNova55555]

5. As for PP and NEP, this should be pretty straight forward. The Magick Realm, a realm where all dualities come together and cease to exist, is stated to be made of magic entirely (and the Living Tribunal flat out calls it the magical universe where the Vishanti and such reside), which means magic is what makes up a realm outside of duality as a whole. Supporting it is the statement that magic is the in-between, the fraying edge between reality and unreality.

As I’ve said to you many times before, it is at the very best only Existence and non-Existence duality. Nothing else

 

[Hecky2222]

NEP 2 by itself isn't even PP2. Sure it can have PP if we have more context but bruh using this logic every NEP 2 should be PP2 via existence and nonexistence dualities(which is btw PP1 at best)

I disagree with PP2. Axe it

 

[Planck69]

I don't think its a problem with CM 1 as a whole. If characters are just getting type 1 concept hax for simply using an ability that comes from it instead of manipulating the actual concept then it should just be axed. You showed that magic is a type 1 concept which is perfectly fine but the problem is that so many characters that use magic are getting all these powerful abilities when many of them have not showcased the power to alter the concept itself like this at all

This is nonsensical. If whatever this energy/power is is a concept and they use it, they are manipulating a concept. Of course the way they use it is is what determines what they can do with it, which is why Marvel mages can't generally destroy the concept of death, but this is just illogical.

Disagree with the thread. At most, I'd urge specifying what they can do with their concept when it's applied.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

5. As for PP and NEP, this should be pretty straight forward. The Magick Realm, a realm where all dualities come together and cease to exist, is stated to be made of magic entirely (and the Living Tribunal flat out calls it the magical universe where the Vishanti and such reside), which means magic is what makes up a realm outside of duality as a whole. Supporting it is the statement that magic is the in-between, the fraying edge between reality and unreality.

There needs to be a statement that magic is nonexistence or nothingness, for NEP.

 

[Hecky2222]

This is nonsensical. If whatever this energy/power is is a concept and they use it, they are manipulating a concept. Of course the way they use it is is what determines what they can do with it, which is why Marvel mages can't generally destroy the concept of death, but this is just illogical.

Can you look at PP and NEP also?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Disagree with this thread FRA. If they are manipulating a power that's conceptual in nature, there's no reason why CM1 should be removed

 

[Eseseso]

I don't think its a problem with CM 1 as a whole. If characters are just getting type 1 concept hax for simply using an ability that comes from it instead of manipulating the actual concept then it should just be axed. You showed that magic is a type 1 concept which is perfectly fine but the problem is that so many characters that use magic are getting all these powerful abilities when many of them have not showcased the power to alter the concept itself like this at all

That's just the nature of magic at it's core, both as an energy and in its manipulation. Many of the statements I've listed above show that magic can either affect a concept or affect the underlying foundation of the universe as a whole.

This is nonsensical. If whatever this energy/power is is a concept and they use it, they are manipulating a concept. Of course the way they use it is is what determines what they can do with it, which is why Marvel mages can't generally destroy the concept of death, but this is just illogical.

Disagree with the thread. At most, I'd urge specifying what they can do with their concept when it's applied.

Thank you.

NEP 2 by itself isn't even PP2. Sure it can have PP if we have more context but bruh using this logic every NEP 2 should be PP2 via existence and nonexistence dualities(which is btw PP1 at best)

I disagree with PP2. Axe it

As I’ve said to you many times before, it is at the very best only Existence and non-Existence duality. Nothing else

It creates a realm where all dualities merge and cease to exist.

 

[Planck69]

5. As for PP and NEP, this should be pretty straight forward. The Magick Realm, a realm where all dualities come together and cease to exist, is stated to be made of magic entirely (and the Living Tribunal flat out calls it the magical universe where the Vishanti and such reside), which means magic is what makes up a realm outside of duality as a whole. Supporting it is the statement that magic is the in-between, the fraying edge between reality and unreality.

Especially given this description of Type 2 PP:
This includes characters existing in a nondual state regarding all logical dual systems within an entire level of reality in a way that makes them occupy both or neither state of the dualities in question.

I do think this Paraconsistent Physiology (Type 2) for magic, but I am fairly sure we do not backscale Nonexistence Physiology from it without further evidence.

 

[SuperNova55555]

It creates a realm where all dualities merge and cease to exist.

Of which these dualities include “Good and Evil”, “Life and Death” so on and so forth. These dualities, being, ones which explicitly do not qualify. In fact, these are the primary examples used to show what does not qulify.

 

[Hecky2222]

all dualities

So????????? All dualities mean nothing unless we have dualities that exactly qualifies.

You are showing Existence and Non-Existence. Sure. But where are others? It would be PP1 at best

 

[Robo432343]

This is nonsensical. If whatever this energy/power is is a concept and they use it, they are manipulating a concept. Of course the way they use it is is what determines what they can do with it, which is why Marvel mages can't generally destroy the concept of death, but this is just illogical.

Disagree with the thread. At most, I'd urge specifying what they can do with their concept when it's applied.

There is a misunderstanding of what qualifies for conceptual manipulation versus simply using a power source that has a conceptual nature. Magic is described as a conceptual force but that does not and should not mean every character who uses magic is manipulating a concept. Everyone who uses gamma energy has CM because of this and at that point concept hax isn't even a demonstrated capability of the user anymore

 

[Lloydblitzed]

There is a misunderstanding of what qualifies for conceptual manipulation versus simply using a power source that has a conceptual nature. Magic is described as a conceptual force but that does not and should not mean every character who uses magic is manipulating a concept. Everyone who uses gamma energy has CM because of this and at that point concept hax isn't even a demonstrated capability of the user anymore

How do you manipulate a conceptual power without manipulating a concept?

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

I do think this Paraconsistent Physiology (Type 2) for magic, but I am fairly sure we do not backscale Nonexistence Physiology from it without further evidence.

The dualities here are life and death, rather than life and not-life, and death and not-death; good and evil, rather than good and not-good; and so on. Therefore, they don’t qualify for Paraconsistent Physiology (Type 2), aside from existence and non-existence, which only makes it ND Type 1.

ypically, entities of such a nature have some property that is not true for them and, at the same time, not false for them. Instead, it might be both true and false, neither true nor false, or in a third logical state that isn't true and false. For example: A rose with Paraconsistent Physiology could be both red and not red, neither red nor not red or the statement "the rose is red" could have the truth value "between" which the fiction has established to be a logical truth value that is neither true nor false.

This can be linked to the idea of dualities and hence also Nonduality. True and false are dualities, as is having and not having a property. In that way, being beyond such dualities would qualify as having Paraconsistent Physiology. More generally, existing outside of any duality where it's logically necessary to participate in one or the other would qualify.

 

[Hecky2222]

Paraconsistent Physiology (Type 2)

Excuse me but I am pretty sure we aint giving PP2 to everyone who has NEP 2

NEP 2 page:

1. Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence. These characters often have some form of Paraconsistent Physiology due to their lack of binary existence. Characters of this type have to behave at least as nonexistent as those with Material Nonexistence, but might display even further showings such as preceding or opposing existence.
   
   

Some form but not everytime.

Literally DC and LoTM PP1 comes from Existence and Nonexistence. Are we fr giving PP2 to every "Existence and Nonexistence" dualities also?

Like i can't find in exactly where in this page examples we accepted PP2 for just "Existence and Nonexistence" alone

 

[Planck69]

There is a misunderstanding of what qualifies for conceptual manipulation versus simply using a power source that has a conceptual nature. Magic is described as a conceptual force but that does not and should not mean every character who uses magic is manipulating a concept. Everyone who uses gamma energy has CM because of this and at that point concept hax isn't even a demonstrated capability of the user anymore

No I understand it well, which is why I called this thread quite dumb. Magic isn't originating from some "concept of magic", it is in itself, a concept. Now if you disagreed with it being a concept at all sure. But since it is one and they are using it, they are using i.e. manipulating a concept.

This just sounds like bitterness that basic characters have concept hax rather than any coherent grievance.

 

[Planck69]

Excuse me but I am pretty sure we aint giving PP2 to everyone who has NEP 2

NEP 2 page:

1. Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence. These characters often have some form of Paraconsistent Physiology due to their lack of binary existence. Characters of this type have to behave at least as nonexistent as those with Material Nonexistence, but might display even further showings such as preceding or opposing existence.
   

Some form but not everytime.

Literally DC and LoTM PP1 comes from Existence and Nonexistence. Are we fr giving PP2 to every "Existence and Nonexistence" dualities also?

Like i can't find in exactly where in this page examples we accepted PP2 for just "Existence and Nonexistence" alone

That is not what I said though? I said having PP2 doesn't let you backscale to have NEP 2. I think that magic making up a realm outside dualities, including by your words, existence and nonexistence, is fine for PP2 alone.

 

[Robo432343]

That's just the nature of magic at it's core, both as an energy and in its manipulation. Many of the statements I've listed above show that magic can either affect a concept or affect the underlying foundation of the universe as a whole.

Many of the statements you showed in that magic page are powerful high level sorcerers performing feats on that scale but it becomes a problem when characters like Juggernaut or literally anyone who has something magic related getting conceptual manipulation, plot manipulation, information hax type 2 for simply having magic power. I have said in the OP that high level sorcerers like those getting CM is fine

 

[Thermor]

Disagree with the thread FRA, also this like saying having power of electricity and use it on another person isn't electricity manipulation.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Many of the statements you showed in that magic page are powerful high level sorcerers performing feats on that scale but it becomes a problem when characters like Juggernaut or literally anyone who has something magic related getting conceptual manipulation, plot manipulation, information hax type 2 for simply having magic power

The first CM related statement he sent litterally talks about magic users in general and not high tiers. It even implies every magic users possess that conceptual ability, but some can manipulate it at higher lvls

 

[Hecky2222]

I said having PP2 doesn't let you backscale to have NEP 2. I think that magic making up a realm outside dualities, including by your words, existence and nonexistence, is fine for PP2 alone.

I am saying having NEP 2 alone isn't enough for PP2.

Existence and Nonexistence alone can be PP1 but not 2.

If their NEP 2 valid sure they can keep PP1. But no way it is PP2 just for existence and nonexistence

 

[Eseseso]

Cut NEP2, still disagree with rest of OP.

 

[Planck69]

I am saying having NEP 2 alone isn't enough for PP2.

Existence and Nonexistence alone can be PP1 but not 2.

If their NEP 2 valid sure they can keep PP1. But no way it is PP2 just for existence and nonexistence

Well yes, hence the quote about all other dualities was included in it. Of course, this isn't me saying you have to agree with it. I'm just explaining my view on this.

 

[SuperNova55555]

It’s totally not suspicious that magic is just a bunch of energy, definitely not at all. Very interesting how this energy can be converted into other materials. Totally not eye-raising how that’s not what a universal is in any way, mhm. Also, definitely not the exact reason why Hoyo lost CM1, as well. Absolutely, definitely not.

Magic is even stated to be a conceptual system that allows an individual to control the natural world (including events, objects, people, and physical phenomena).Magic is also simultaneously outside the concepts of logic yet can also replace them. Magic turns symbols and metaphors into the true reality. "Magic is taking a thought and making it real. Taking a lie and making it the truth. Telling a story to the universe so utterly, cosmically perfect that for a single, shining moment... the world believes a man can fly ", and those stories that become magic then echo through space and time back to the start of all things, mixing with the All-That-Was and sparking something new, such as the mythical Gods of the Marvel Universe as well as the 10 Norse Realms (each of which is its own universe), becoming so big and mad and brilliant that they go back in time and change other stories, especially as "maybes" and "might-bes" such as "I dunno.", "I can't remember.", and "What if?" are just magic words that make anything possible. In further support of this, magic at its core is stated to be the practice of making the universe bend to one's will by speaking words of power, and magic is stated again to be just a way of telling the universe to bend to your will. Dormammu himself, a being described as a literal concept, is made from a combination of the magical Flames of the Faltine as well as the mystical energies of the Dark Dimension, further establishing the conceptual nature of magic. This notion of magic being connected to the laws of the universe is further stated as such: "The first step to mastering the Arcane Arts is recognizing the patters that others don't see. (...) The second step to mastering the Arcane Arts is recognizing that patterns can change", with the patterns in question largely including the laws and concepts of the universe. For example, a pattern noted is the standard numerical pattern of "1,2,3,4", but the scan notes that to change the pattern is to change it to "1,2,3, π". In higher realms, magic force is all that matters, and in higher dimensions, magic supersedes physical laws and is the only energetic medium that can affect change. Wielding magic means using your mind to warp primal forces.
Also, sorcerers manipulate universal forces, and mystical chains can wrap around and seal away a dimensional portal that was literally stated to be a concept and not a physical actuality, with Hulk using those same chains to reseal the portal. Also, only mystic beings and users of sorcery (such as the Puffball Collective) can perceive the conceptual portal. The portal is also described as "sorcererous", or magical, in nature (which makes sense given it is a portal to the mystical Crossroads), further supporting the conceptual nature of magic. Spells are ideas that turn belief into power, and magic is simply "ideas people choose to believe. Stories with soul".

Man, a lot of this sure is hella fluff now that I read it. Some of this stuff doesn’t even faithfully relegate what the scans themselves say, nor do they even seem to actually imply CM1.

But what do I know. There’s probably some 40 year old issue that just so happens to fix all these problems. It definitely will contradict a shitton of stuff later on, but this is comics so it doesn’t matter, I guess.

 

[Hecky2222]

all other dualities

Well I am pretty sure, good and evil, light and dark, cold and fire can be dualities as well. But I feel like we give PP to not opposing forces but truth values breaking.

Instead of good and evil it should be good and not good(1 and 0). Scan tells us existence and nonexistence which yea 1 and 0 by itself. But are we sure, we would assume it has all others without further explanation? Like how we would know if "all other dualities" are exactly good and not good instead of good and evil? Giving it PP2 without further explanation seems bit iffy

 

[Lort15]

i have same thoughts with Planck

 

[Planck69]

Well I am pretty sure, good and evil, light and dark, cold and fire can be dualities as well. But I feel like we give PP to not opposing forces but truth values breaking.

Instead of good and evil it should be good and not good(1 and 0). Scan tells us existence and nonexistence which yea 1 and 0 by itself. But are we sure, we would assume it has all others without further explanation? Like how we would know if "all other dualities" are exactly good and not good instead of good and evil? Giving it PP2 without further explanation seems bit iffy

This is a fair point I will admit. Neutral to PP2 for now, but am fine with PP1 and the rest staying.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Well I am pretty sure, good and evil, light and dark, cold and fire can be dualities as well. But I feel like we give PP to not opposing forces but truth values breaking.

Instead of good and evil it should be good and not good(1 and 0). Scan tells us existence and nonexistence which yea 1 and 0 by itself. But are we sure, we would assume it has all others without further explanation? Like how we would know if "all other dualities" are exactly good and not good instead of good and evil? Giving it PP2 without further explanation seems bit iffy

Do you have any evidence that all other dualities doesn’t just mean both good and evil, and good and not good, after all if one of them is existence and non existence and one is life and death which are different types of dualities and it is said that it contains all dualities then why should we assume there’s only one type of duality

 

[Hecky2222]

Do you have any evidence that all other dualities doesn’t just mean both good and evil, and good and not good, after all if one of them is existence and non existence and one is life and death which are different types of dualities and it is said that it contains all dualities then why should we assume there’s only one type of duality

Why we assume there is exactly dualities that qualifies? Isn't that literally opposite? Otherwise everyone can get any ability. You have to prove how they exactly qualify.

 

[Eseseso]

It’s totally not suspicious that magic is just a bunch of energy, definitely not at all. Very interesting how this energy can be converted into other materials. Totally not eye-raising how that’s not what a universal is in any way, mhm. Also, definitely not the exact reason why Hoyo lost CM1, as well. Absolutely, definitely not.


Man, a lot of this sure is hella fluff now that I read it. Some of this stuff doesn’t even faithfully relegate what the scans themselves say, nor do they even seem to actually imply CM1.

But what do I know. There’s probably some 40 year old issue that just so happens to fix all these problems. It definitely will contradict a shitton of stuff later on, but this is comics so it doesn’t matter, I guess.

Did you even read this page explaining magic?

Magic (Marvel Comics)

There are many types of magic in the vast and complex history of Marvel Comics. However, while all the magic types are different to varying degrees, and some are definitely more well known than others, all share basic elements and powers (as well as basic potency that is likely...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[SuperNova55555]

Do you have any evidence that all other dualities doesn’t just mean both good and evil, and good and not good, after all if one of them is existence and non existence and one is life and death which are different types of dualities and it is said that it contains all dualities then why should we assume there’s only one type of duality

We straight-up don’t do this for other verses. So yes, we assume only one type of duality.

 

[Rgerdeena]

We straight-up don’t do this for other verses. So yes, we assume only one type of duality.

I find it hard to believe that we haven’t done this for any verses considering some of the wank I’ve seen on the wiki

eh, I’m fine with it leaving if it’s considered to big of a headcannon

 

[SuperNova55555]

Did you even read this page explaining magic?

Magic (Marvel Comics)

There are many types of magic in the vast and complex history of Marvel Comics. However, while all the magic types are different to varying degrees, and some are definitely more well known than others, all share basic elements and powers (as well as basic potency that is likely...

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I replied to what you sent yourself. In which I found nothing substantial for CM1. If, for some reason, there is better proof on that page which you didn’t send, so be it.

I find it hard to believe that we haven’t done this for any verses considering some of the wank I’ve seen on the wiki

You can only fix wank by… fixing wank. You can’t js say “oh, well X verse wanks so it’s justified when I do it”; that will js keep propagating the issue even more.

 

[Rgerdeena]

You can only fix wank by… fixing wank. You can’t js say “oh, well X verse wanks so it’s justified when I do it”; that will js keep propaganda the issue even more.

Just so you know if I cross something out like I did it means that part’s at least 80% a joke, it’s not like I actually think we should be bad because other verses are