The Sun God Nika vs The Six Paths Sage (Luffy vs Naruto).

[Maitreya12]

Nard was going up against three tome sharingan with pure skills and still kept up and countered. I don’t understand how you came to that conclusion

Actually that perfectly shows how Luffy’s future sight is a big problem for Naruto. Sasuke, via simply improving his precognition, was able to start dominating Naruto in their fight thanks to the advancement of his Sharingan. The times where Naruto would trip Sasuke up after this were moments in which the Sharingan couldn’t predict Naruto’s movements, such as the arm coming from his chakra cloak. Which wouldn’t be the case for Luffy since his isn’t simply precognition but straight future sight itself.

Let’s not start with genjutsu when nard has a baseline resistance to it and 7-layers of powernull for it

I’m not saying anything about Naruto’s resistance to genjutsu however. I’m just saying that Naruto’s immunity to ninjutsu wouldn’t make him immune to haki in the same way it doesn’t make him immune to genjutsu inherently.

Nard is immune to duraneg on a cellular level so I doubt his getting any damage

Pretty sure different rules of dura neg works in different ways so not all resistances can be scaled to each other.

Not true at all if equal (which it is) than nards just straight up immune via invul

I don’t think so. In the same way Naruto isn’t immune to certain types of moves in his own verse, he wouldn’t be immune to these haki based abilities that operate in similar ways even when equalizing the two.

 

[KingTempest]

I agree , I was just giving an example that a lot of ninjutsu aren't some special type of ability. Fang over fang is just kinda spinning

Fang over fang is literally "Man-Beast Taijutsu"

I already said yeah this won't matter until you start talking about it's powernul effects and stuff like that. By this logic Naruto would be invulnerable to stuff like that then

You can't be invulnerable to someone else's resistance.
Unless you have resistance negation it doesn't matter.

I understand what you mean tsb is the application right? But that's wrong as it's the user themselves that infuses yin Yang(source of the SR shit) into tsb when they want (it's why tso doesn't erase sakura) so it's coming from them and when they fight each other, six path and co they have to be resisting it if not they just well stomp each other

I literally made a thread about how nature transformation changes the functional mechanics of chakra.
TSO is literally that functional mechanic change. It doesn't count.

What I mean is the invunerabilty still works when the cellular energy of chakra is not present but just the spiritual energy/mental energy part . For example the susanoo is such construct and the invunerabilty still applies there. Like Sasuke firing a susanoo arrow, obito was still fine

If you have chakra without cellular energy, it is not chakra, it is just brainpower or floating disembodied spirits. It's like tayuya's shit.

The susanoo is physical chakra, physical spiritual ≠ cellular energy manifested.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Conqueror's Haki infusion completely negates immortality and regeneration. Naruto is gonna have to just stand there and fight with holes where his organs used to be.

COAT is just healing and life manipulation, kurama also has healing as in separate from regen or immorality

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

This also literally what chakra is, it’s an energy that all things posses, from the smallest of living organisms to entire planets. Chakra is what unites people to understand one another and gives them the strength to protect and defend themselves. It’s literally one to one expect for the additional elements

So now you just lying?

again, chakra is an actual new manifested energy that’s made from mixing mental and physical

Haki is using ones will at an extreme/supernatural degree for the things that already exist.. they don’t combine anything, haki isn’t a new created energy, it’s legit just their power of wanting to fight manifested in different ways… which are WAY different to how chakra is manifested

 

[KingTempest]

COAT is just healing and life manipulation, kurama also has healing as in separate from regen or immorality

COAT is reality manipulation.
It's just that naruto uses it externally.

Naruto lost an arm and ain't do that shit i don't wanna hear people try to act like Naruto is a COAT merchant who can just pop limbs back in place.

 

[KingTempest]

Yall are shameless

 

[karo_senpaii]

Fang over fang is literally "Man-Beast Taijutsu"

You can't be invulnerable to someone else's resistance.
Unless you have resistance negation it doesn't matter.

I'm saying he can be invulnerable to power null, power null is an ability

I literally made a thread about how nature transformation changes the functional mechanics of chakra.
TSO is literally that functional mechanic change. It doesn't count.

? The yin Yang which is the sub reality is applied by the user itself and is always present in tso. The whole reason why tso nullifies all ninjutsu as stated by tobirama is because of the constant presence of yin Yang in it. So it's not just application, the source itself is present there and they resist it.

If you have chakra without cellular energy, it is not chakra, it is just brainpower or floating disembodied spirits. It's like tayuya's shit.

The susanoo is physical chakra, physical spiritual ≠ cellular energy manifested.

No. There's a reason uchiha are proficient in yang and the senju are proficient in yin. One is proficient in the spiritual part which is where susanoo comes from and one is proficient in the life part of cellular part. Chakra isn't always fused together, they still call it chakra regar

 

[karo_senpaii]

COAT is reality manipulation.
It's just that naruto uses it externally.

Naruto lost an arm and ain't do that shit i don't wanna hear people try to act like Naruto is a COAT merchant who can just pop limbs back in place.

It has many applications.

Naruto lost it after the war man but this key here? It's active

 

[Samlex1234]

Vote Naruto FRA.

 

[KingTempest]

I'm saying he can be invulnerable to power null, power null is an ability

Luffy don't got power null so it don't matter

? The yin Yang which is the sub reality is applied by the user itself and is always present in tso. The whole reason why tso nullifies all ninjutsu as stated by tobirama is because of the constant presence of yin Yang in it. So it's not just application, the source itself is present there and they resist it.

No. There's a reason uchiha are proficient in yang and the senju are proficient in yin. One is proficient in the spiritual part which is where susanoo comes from and one is proficient in the life part of cellular part. Chakra isn't always fused together, they still call it chakra regar

Yang and Yin are nature transformations of chakra.
There's a difference between Spiritual and Cellular and Yang and Yin
They use both spiritual and cellular energy to cause either spiritual effects or physical effects.

It has many applications.

Naruto lost it after the war man but this key here? It's active

yeah and he never uses any of those application to heal himself like what's being imposed

 

[karo_senpaii]

Luffy don't got power null so it don't matter

Haki does though.

Yang and Yin are nature transformations of chakra.

Ying Yang release, the combination of both is what tobirama was talking about. That's what cause rw

There's a difference between Spiritual and Cellular and Yang and Yin
They use both spiritual and cellular energy to cause either spiritual effects or physical effects.

Yeah sure, idk why you're saying this

yeah and he never uses any of those application to heal himself like what's being imposed

There was never a reason too. He has top 5 best regen in the verse so he never fell in a situation where he needed it. He did use it to heal kakashi, guy and obito though. So when he sees his regen fails of course he's going to use it for himself

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I’m not gonna lie, the people with the arguments that Naruto is Invulnerable to Haki by trying to equate Haki and Chakra as the same thing, should get their votes retracted, unless their arguments are based on something else.
Non of that is accepted anywhere on any profiles to where they are or work the same

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Your explanation of chakra contradicts the canon explanation of chakra.
Chakra in its components is the mental energy caused from the brain mixed with the energy in the cells. This is what chakra is explained to be.

How so? Imma need scans

If you go in a vs battle and you try to equate chakra to haki and you ask for an explanation and you say "Chakra is what unites people to understand one another" you will be ignored.

Not my fault that such a thing was brought up as a counterpoint. So i responded in kind

Haki is literally your willpower. Your ambition. It is not fueled by your ambition, it is your ambition materialized.
Chakra is not your willpower materialized. It is the energies that your body has.

Huh, chakra literally is composed of willpower, so anything that is given chakra a physical form automatically give that will power form. Hell we had Obito’s sword of nanaboku which runs on willpower and that thing was composed of just chakra.

You can run out of haki and live. You run out of chakra components and you die.
Haki is strengthened when you willpower is increased. Chakra regularly does not make you stronger because you realized that red velvet is just dyed chocolate.

As I mentioned before, when someone “dies” in Naruto they get sent to pure lands or hell as pure chakra. They never truly die,
So this point doesn’t matter.

They are not the same, and even if they were the same, it means nothing.

It’s does, it means nard immune to all haki abilities

So now you just lying?

How so?

again, chakra is an actual new manifested energy that’s made from mixing mental and physical

That’s just not true at all, what do you call ghost hags? Or when obito returned from purgatory? They are all chkara without physical energy, furthermore Hags taught ninshu which literally separated physical energy from mental energies. This shows that mental energies as a standalone is what constitutes as “chakra” while physical energy is a latter addition.

Also physical energies just amplify and increase the volume of chakra and is in no way, shape or form relevant to the continuous existence of living organism.

You are the one who is lying here not me.

Haki is using ones will at an extreme/supernatural degree for the things that already exist.. they don’t combine anything, haki isn’t a created new energies, it’s legit just their power of wanting to fight manifested in different ways… WAY different to how chakra is manifested

Same as chakra, you just have a faulty understanding of what constitutes chakra and its elements. Chakra is and always has been only metal energies which host will power.

We literally had Obito using willpower as a manifests weapon, the sword of nanaboku and that’s just lots of chakra in the shape of a DNA strand.

 

[KingTempest]

Haki does though.

I am currently on the Haki page that I made and power null is not there.

Ying Yang release, the combination of both is what tobirama was talking about. That's what cause rw

I know.
Again, they are different from the components of chakra.

Yeah sure, idk why you're saying this

There was never a reason too. He has top 5 best regen in the verse so he never fell in a situation where he needed it. He did use it to heal kakashi, guy and obito though. So when he sees his regen fails of course he's going to use it for himself

He has top 5 best regen cause there's like 5 regen users and he's one of em.

He only used it to stabilize like, limbs that didn't exist.

I fail to see any reason why he shows enough capability

 

[Mbpoops]

Viting naruto

 

[KingTempest]

How so? Imma need scans

Not my fault that such a thing was brought up as a counterpoint. So i responded in kind

Huh, chakra literally is composed of willpower, so anything that is given chakra a physical form automatically give that will power form. Hell we had Obito’s sword of nanaboku which runs on willpower and that thing was composed of just chakra.

As I mentioned before, when someone “dies” in Naruto they get sent to pure lands or hell as pure chakra. They never truly die,
So this point doesn’t matter.

It’s does, it means nard immune to all haki abilities

Yeah.
You're a liar.

Chakra is literally the combination of physical and spiritual energy canonically.
The wiki explanation of chakra on our accepted understanding is that it is physical and spiritual energy.

Chakra is the combination of both mental and physical energies

If you come here and say "it's not physical energy" as a way to give Naruto a wincon, and everyone agrees based on this flawed understanding, then every vote based on your reasoning will be removed.

"Chakra is willpower" why are we lying.

 

[Kachon123]

I’m not gonna lie, the people with the arguments that Naruto is Invulnerable to Haki by trying to equate Haki and Chakra as the same thing, should get their votes retracted, unless their arguments are based on something else.
Non of that is accepted anywhere on any profiles to where they are or work the same

6 minute bump

 

[Kachon123]

Viting naruto

For what reasons?

Surely not the equalized Haki/Chakra, or the nukes that Naruto wouldn't use and otherwise can and will be reflected, or the clones that are Haki victims, or his non-existent reactions advantage, right?

 

[KingTempest]

Someone write down every wincon and every reason for both sides from a nonbiased standpoint, preferably the OP but whoever tbh

 

[Mbpoops]

For what reasons?

Surely not the equalized Haki/Chakra, or the nukes that Naruto wouldn't use and otherwise can and will be reflected, or the clones that are Haki victims, or his non-existent reactions advantage, right?

my message sent before tempest’s lasts messages loaded so ill go back to neutral

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Actually that perfectly shows how Luffy’s future sight is a big problem for Naruto. Sasuke, via simply improving his precognition, was able to start dominating Naruto in their fight thanks to the advancement of his Sharingan. The times where Naruto would trip Sasuke up after this were moments in which the Sharingan couldn’t predict Naruto’s movements, such as the arm coming from his chakra cloak. Which wouldn’t be the case for Luffy since his isn’t simply precognition but straight future sight itself.

You completely left out the part where I asked how may different possibilities does luffy see in order to counteract nards move sets? Cuz if it’s only one than he is getting his ass handed to him.

I’m not saying anything about Naruto’s resistance to genjutsu however. I’m just saying that Naruto’s immunity to ninjutsu wouldn’t make him immune to haki in the same way it doesn’t make him immune to genjutsu inherently.

Uhhh what? Literally IT was the only one to work against nard and that is a Six paths enhanced jutsu which bypasses his resistance.

I don’t think so. In the same way Naruto isn’t immune to certain types of moves in his own verse, he wouldn’t be immune to these haki based abilities that operate in similar ways even when equalizing the two.

Such as? Only thing nards invul can’t save him from is nature energy and physical attacks other than that ninjutsu has not worked once on him

Yeah.
You're a liar.

Let’s not throw stuff around needlessly, especially when both of you two are mods and hold a position that requires restraint and overall respect to any and all members.

Chakra is literally the combination of physical and spiritual energy canonically.
The wiki explanation of chakra on our accepted understanding is that it is physical and spiritual energy.

How do you explain Ninshu then?

The teaching where Hags separated the metal and physical energy. Or how do you explain chakra ghost that don’t have a physical body to pull physical energy from?

If you come here and say "it's not physical energy" as a way to give Naruto a wincon, and everyone agrees based on this flawed understanding, then every vote based on your reasoning will be removed.

"Chakra is willpower" why are we lying.

That’s just being unfair? I have provided evidence and you simply hand wave it out?

 

[Kaydee1648]

Note that I voted Naruto for my reasons, which involve him outlasting G5 due to LS and AOE advantages, alongside clones and skill advantages.

The opposing argument, while compelling, is not enough for me to change my stance at the moment.

 

[IbukiDoujisGiantTail]

Im gonna be real: I really don't think verse equalizing Haki and Chakra helps Naruto.

There's still the Gear 5 elephant in the room and if you equate Haki and Chakra, all that really does is apply G5's Haki bypass to all of Narutos Chakra techniques even harder, meaning the TSO's wouldn't even be a wincon anymore

So either you don't verse equalize and Naruto is taken out by a strong ACOC Haki punch, or you do and Naruto gets taken out by a G5 RW punch. Both means bypass durability regardless.

 

[Damage3245]

Conqueror's Haki infusion completely negates immortality and regeneration. Naruto is gonna have to just stand there and fight with holes where his organs used to be.

Well, it doesn't completely negate immortality and regeneration (all the time). We've had some immortal characters be hit by Conqueror's Haki infused attacks and had their regeneration delayed, but not completely stopped, and they still lived despite the seemingly mortal wounds inflicted on them.

 

[BlackeJan]

I vote Naruto

From earlier arguments with clone spam, having more power ups, and more abilities especially if Luffy gonna have immense trouble tryna find the real Naruto against the sea of clones + Luffy time limit and stamina

Yall also forgot of the intelligence stats. U can beat someone who’s faster or stronger if u have the intelligence to figure out a weakness and Naruto is Extraordinary Genius while Luffy is Above Average

 

[karo_senpaii]

I am currently on the Haki page that I made and power null is not there.

I know.
Again, they are different from the components of chakra.

He has top 5 best regen cause there's like 5 regen users and he's one of em.

He only used it to stabilize like, limbs that didn't exist.

I fail to see any reason why he shows enough capability

I Can name 10 people with regen but that's by the way.

He used it in guy who was already turning to ash, used it bring create an eye for kakashi and used it to revive obito from the dead. I don't see why there would be a problem using it on himself. I also mentioned kurama healing him too so that's not the only stuff

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Im gonna be real: I really don't think verse equalizing Haki and Chakra helps Naruto.

There's still the Gear 5 elephant in the room and if you equate Haki and Chakra, all that really does is apply G5's Haki bypass to all of Narutos Chakra techniques even harder, meaning the TSO's wouldn't even be a wincon anymore

So either you don't verse equalize and Naruto is taken out by a strong ACOC Haki punch, or you do and Naruto gets taken out by a G5 RW punch. Both means bypass durability regardless.

You forgor his invul

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

I also gave my arguments at the start of the thread, without any of the invul shenanigans.

So this invul stuff is just a side quest, complete separate from my main arguments

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

That’s just not true at all, what do you call ghost hags? Or when obito returned from purgatory? They are all chkara without physical energy, furthermore Hags taught ninshu which literally separated physical energy from mental energies. This shows that mental energies as a standalone is what constitutes as “chakra” while physical energy is a latter addition.

Also physical energies just amplify and increase the volume of chakra and is in no way, shape or form relevant to the continuous existence of living organism.

You are the one who is lying here not me.

Tell me what I’m lying on, because I’ve literally restated things that are stated for both verses…

Same as chakra, you just have a faulty understanding of what constitutes chakra and its elements. Chakra is and always has been only metal energies which host will power.

We literally had Obito using willpower as a manifests weapon, the sword of nanaboku and that’s just lots of chakra in the shape of a DNA strand.

Alright sure then let’s go along with what you’re saying… chakra is mental energy which is comprised of willpower… THATS STILL NOT THE SAME AS HAKI, they are still manifested differently and don’t act the same

Stop ignoring how Haki isn’t an created energy that’s compromised of one’s willpower, haki is the willpower utilized in 3 different ways… THOSE 3 DIFFERENT WAYs are not the same as chakra or the “mental energy”

The most important difference is that one manifests the mental energy itself while the other doesn’t, Haki just utilizes their already existing spiritual senses to a supernatural degree

This would only make sense if con haki was the main component of haki, which is the Spirit itself (or “mental energy”) manifested

Even then, they still aren’t manifesting the same way as the mental energy of naruto and have different functions

 

[KingTempest]

Let’s not throw stuff around needlessly, especially when both of you two are mods and hold a position that requires restraint and overall respect to any and all members.

My apologies.

How do you explain Ninshu then?

The teaching where Hags separated the metal and physical energy.

Ninshu was never the teaching where Hagoromo separated Mental and Physical energy.
Ninshu was the teaching that people can connect to each other.
The issue is that Ninjutsu removed that connection, but it maintained the physical and mental energy.
Chakra at its root is physical and spiritual energy.

Or how do you explain chakra ghost that don’t have a physical body to pull physical energy from?

That’s just being unfair? I have provided evidence and you simply hand wave it out?

I'm not handwaving it, but if you come here and say water is a solid and i show you a source something saying the opposite then it's objectively wrong.

 

[Maitreya12]

You completely left out the part where I asked how may different possibilities does luffy see in order to counteract nards move sets? Cuz if it’s only one than he is getting his ass handed to him.

It doesn’t work like that. Not every verse works on “possible future” mechanics. What Luffy sees is going to happen. As in, if Naruto tries to throw a punch to counter Luffy, Luffy is going to see that counter happen first.

Uhhh what? Literally IT was the only one to work against nard and that is a Six paths enhanced jutsu which bypasses his resistance.

Is there any statement or confirmation that it makes you immune to genjutsu as well as ninjutsu, is that part of the profile?

Such as? Only thing nards invul can’t save him from is nature energy and physical attacks other than that ninjutsu has not worked once on him

Such as future sight, Luffy’s durability negation which works like the gentle fist, Luffy’s physical armament enhancements, Luffy’s conqueror haki.

So pretty much all Luffy’s haki abilities.

 

[KingTempest]

especially if Luffy gonna have immense trouble tryna find the real Naruto against the sea of clones + Luffy time limit and stamina

Luffy canonically has easily deduced individuals from clones repeatedly.
Luffy also has no time limit, again, we said that over and over.
Naruto's longest fight was a few hours Luffy has fought for half a day don't lie.

Yall also forgot of the intelligence stats. U can beat someone who’s faster or stronger if u have the intelligence to figure out a weakness and Naruto is Extraordinary Genius while Luffy is Above Average

Naruto is not an extraordinary genius combatant, he is an extraordinary genius in the understanding of chakra.
AKA, he understands everything about chakra.

The wiki has removed the measurement of combat in terms like genius and such.
You cannot try to use this to say Naruto would outsmart Luffy.

 

[Damage3245]

Luffy also has no time limit, again, we said that over and over.

They may have meant Gear 5 Luffy, who does have a time limit.

 

[KingTempest]

They may have meant Gear 5 Luffy, who does have a time limit.

Luffy has shown repeatedly the capability to activate and deactivate Gear 5 whenever he wishes, he does not need to stay in it, and his durability negation that will gap the whole fight can be activated whenever he wishes.

Time limit does not matter.

 

[Godernet]

Alr what are the wincons so far?

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Tell me what I’m lying on, because I’ve literally restated things that are stated for both verse…

Alright sure then let’s go along with what you’re saying… chakra is mental energy which is comprised of willpower… THATS STILL NOT THE SAME AS HAKI, they are still manifested differently and don’t act the same

Stop ignoring how Haki isn’t a created energy that’s made from one’s willpower, haki is the willpower which is ultized in 3 different ways… THOSE 3 DIFFERENT WAYs are not the same as chakra

The most important difference is that one manifests the mental energy while the other doesn’t, Haki utilizes their already existing spiritual senses to a supernatural degree

This would make sense if con haki was the main component of haki, which is the Spirit itself manifested

Even then, they still aren’t manifesting the same way as the mental energy of naruto

Uhhh did you skip over the part where I said chakra is not created but exsists as a natural order of things?

My apologies.

No worries

Ninshu was never the teaching where Hagoromo separated Mental and Physical energy.
Ninshu was the teaching that people can connect to each other.
The issue is that Ninjutsu removed that connection, but it maintained the physical and mental energy.
Chakra at its root is physical and spiritual energy.

Madara says hags teached a way to connect mental energies with others, than people stopped that and started connecting physical and mental energies together.

This necessitates that mental energy were separated from physical energy in order to Connect to other mental energies. If mental energies and physical energies was always connected, than how did people connected to other metal energies as well?

The scan also shows that when talking about metal energies connecting to other mental energies there is no sight of physical, only when it’s mentioned that they connected physical and mental energies did the yin-yang symbol appear, but before that it only shows Yin.

This also didn’t adress my second point where chakra ghost that lack a physical body which provides physical energy. Further proving that physical energy is an amplifier rather than a necessity for continuous existence.

I'm not handwaving it, but if you come here and say water is a solid and i show you a source something saying the opposite then it's objectively wrong.

Understandable

 

[Testarossa002]

This is for KT. Too lazy to go back 1 page
I'm assuming they start 4km from each other via SBA
Naruto is more likely to feel Luffy up (pause) with clones and then nuke shit up. Similar to what he did against Kakuzu. If Luffy COQ negs (double pause) the clones, Naruto is never charging in. He'll simply respond to a wide area nuke.
Sure, Luffy has future sight, but there's not much he can do if naruto nukes everywhere.
Naruto can also tell when his moves are being read

I still maintain my vote for Nard

 

[KingTempest]

Uhhh did you skip over the part where I said chakra is not created but exsists as a natural order of things?

chakra is created from the components of stamina which comes from physical and mental energy (chapter 90). those components are called "chakra".
those components are a natural order of things. the combined energy is not.

No worries

Madara says hags teached a way to connect mental energies with others, than people stopped that and started connecting physical and mental energies together.

This necessitates that mental energy were separated from physical energy in order to Connect to other mental energies. If mental energies and physical energies was always connected, than how did people connected to other metal energies as well?

The scan also shows that when talking about metal energies connecting to other mental energies there is no sight of physical, only when it’s mentioned that they connected physical and mental energies did the yin-yang symbol appear.

This also didn’t adress my second point where chakra ghost that lack a physical body which provides physical energy. Further proving that physical energy is an amplifier rather than a necessity for continuous existence.

He taught a way for them to link each other's brains.

Which is why throughout naruto people connected on the spiritual realm through combat and through fist bumps.

this is completely separate from saying that chakra completely lacks physical energy. That's going against canon

 

[Samlex1234]

Luffy has shown repeatedly the capability to activate and deactivate Gear 5 whenever he wishes, he does not need to stay in it, and his durability negation that will gap the whole fight can be activated whenever he wishes.

Time limit does not matter.

Durability negation that gap the whole fight? What does that even mean?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Uhhh did you skip over the part where I said chakra is not created but exsists as a natural order of things?

As a mental utilization, it is a created energy…

you yourself even said it’s comprised from one’s soul, mind and such