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Chaotic Honkai Verse Upgrade (1-A & L1-A)

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This doesn't address the problem here...
Yeah it does. The whole rivalry thing is about the process of leaf worlds falling into the sea. It's explictly working on real space level. And that's exactly like what you said.
every time it says the Tree is in a rivalry with SoQ, you're implicitly excluding IS for some reason.
Imaginary tree term is loosely used in a lot of different contexts. Just because someone say Imaginary tree, it doesn't automatically includes imaginary space
 
I literally laid out the issue of how Imaginary Space is explicitly called the "realm of the Imaginary Tree". Even the CN specifies the Tree here. That'd be such an incredibly odd choice of words if you believe that IS somehow encompasses SoQ. Which is why I'm saying that if IS doesn't encompass SoQ, that'd be js an incredibly awkward arrangement of things.

IS obviously doesn't encompass SoQ. I do not have a problem with the arrangement of the cosmology, you come to the right conclusion (though I think it has some nuance, specifically referring to Imaginary Space) but have a few points that are downright incorrect.

'1) Have IS > SoQ (and consequently GGZ's chaos) = IT'

Is the more obviously correct one out of the two.

'(as the VN statements refer to the universe as a whole, or at the very least SoQ is explicitly dimensional since bubble worlds inherit dimensions from it)' - It refers to the bubble worlds inheriting dimensions from specifically the SoQ. We can extrapolate this into being the reason why the bubble universes break down. They lose order with inherited dimensions and the more they inherit the closer they become to the bulk of the SoQ, thus eventually dissolving into it.

'And since Imaginary Space is also the origin of the universe and all laws, then it'd also has to be the origin of SoQ:'
Completely untrue. It's stated numerous times that the SoQ defies the universe's laws, the SoQ's laws shift and change continuously and do not correlate with either the Tree or the 4D reality of Hi3. Plus I believe the 'universe' refers to the 4D universe anyway.

Anyway those are the main massive issues I have with the post. Onto my own interpretation of the cosmology.
I've literally already been talking about this issue the entire thread, but I'm not sure how it factors in to this point.

Because things are nuanced and complicated and there's many more imaginary spaces in the verse than just the one surrounding the Imaginary Tree. An Imaginary Space is more or less a type of space and more often than not it is linked to the tree, but not all mentions of 'Imaginary Space' mean that said thing or character is in the Imaginary Space surrounding the bulk of the tree.
We know this because Sirin, Seele, Mei, the Kaslana bloodline have their own Imaginary Spaces. The Tree simply has its own bulk Imaginary Space it exists upon.

From my view:
Cocoon > The Tree's Bulk Imaginary Space = I.T. = SoQ (Other Imaginary Spaces pending placement, likely lower. They link back to the main tree and space which is what allows Stigma uses to draw and resist insane amounts of Honkai Energy.)

I believe this solves the issue.

Tackling why I believe this:
'Nagamitsu: Your current location is still under the influence of the Sea of Quanta. If you go any further, you’ll be completely within the realm of the Imaginary Tree.'

Point 1:
Durandal ended up in the Imaginary Space after this quote.
It's pretty understandable why the Tree and Imaginary Space would have overlap, especially if you interpret the following:
The Imaginary Tree and it's bulk Imaginary Space are simply part of the same construct that forms the greater Hi3 and HSR verse.

The SoQ and Tree are always eating at each other thus if you were going from one to another you'd overlap. Of course the SoQ still has some amount of influence when you're 'closer' to the SoQ but still in Imaginary Space.

Point 2:
The Imaginary Space is upscaled via holding Imaginary Singularities which are governed by the Cocoon of Finality. This is the only reason I can find for why Imaginary Space supersedes the Tree which is admittedly weak proof for why Imaginary Space is a whole different construct to the Tree. Please correct me if there's more. I don't think there is.

Point 3: It's stated that the Cocoon is dimensionally superior to all other dimensions in Part 1.5.
But it also exists in the Tree's bulk Imaginary Space or on the Tree itself as that's where Eins is searching for it.

Context for the quote: This is in the context of searching for the cocoon. Previous English translation before these quotes is:
'All Herrschers are connected to the same object subtly. In the past, we thought it was the Imaginary Tree... but that's far from the truth. If we apply the concept of transfinite numbers...'

Eins exact following quote is:
  • Even if we have exhausted the Honkai on the Earth, we are still wandering on the lowest “transfinite base”, and still far from the insight into the Imaginary Tree that is “infinite in the sense of transfinite”
(Translated not MTL)

And also in the official English translation.
  • Even if we have exhaust the Honkai on Earth, we're still wandering around the lowest cardinal number and far from seeing the Imaginary Tree that's also infinite in scale in a transfinite sense.
The only viable explanation for the Cocoon having a location on the Tree, or its bulk imaginary space AND being dimensionally superior, (which we know is true (Imaginary Singularities are dimensionless and exist upon all dimensions at once)) is:

Viewing the Cocoon from Imaginary Space (if we were to put this in lower dimensional terms) is like a 2D person viewing a 3D sphere. They see a 2D circle and that circle to them has mappable coordinates but doesn't paint the full picture of the 3D object. The Imaginary Space / Tree provides a lower dimensional representation of what the Cocoon is. It HAS to exist above the Tree.

The Cocoon can't have its own Imaginary Space separate we know it takes Imaginary Energy from the Tree / Imaginary Space through Imaginary Singularities and Herrschers having links with Imaginary Space, but it HAS to be dimensionally superior as it's blatantly stated numerous times.

OR

Cocoon > The Tree's Bulk Imaginary Space > I.T. = SoQ (What you suggested).




Our only differences in interpretation is how the Imaginary Space factors in with the Tree, but I believe viewing the Tree and its Space as dimensionally the same makes the events of the game make a lot more sense.
Like the writers clearly see the Tree and Imaginary Space as part of the same construct, and it's both possible for the Cocoon to exist above dimensionally and on the Imaginary Space at the same time.
(To be fair Eins could just be completely wrong and the Cocoon doesn't exist in Imaginary Space... which is unlikely because Eins is never wrong.)
 
The issue is that the Tree's Imaginary Space is said to be deeper than SoQ is my main issue here though, otherwise I wouldn't have this much of an issue figuring the placements out.

Are we sure 'deeper' doesn't just refer to the 'dimensions' of the Space? We know the Tree and Imaginary Space is stated to be just larger than the SoQ, but they can be the same dimensionally.
 
this just means it'll go further into unknown space
iirc the actual TL that Weaver posted says smthn like "breach the quantum dimension and go into a deeper, unknown space". It's literally just saying that IS is a space deeper than SoQ
 
Also grouping the IT and SoQ together when they exist on different dimensionalities is stupid. It's stated that they exist on different dimensions - ''create a tunnel that goes right through the Quantum dimension and enter the unknown...".
Actually it seems the in-game js says that IT might be unexplored territory at most. So it might js be the TL in the wiki is complete cheeks and IT = IS
 
Actually it seems the in-game js says that IT might be unexplored territory at most. So it might js be the TL in the wiki is complete cheeks and IT = IS

At the time of that scan where 'deeper' is mentioned they were using Kiana's void powers to try access the Imaginary Space / Tree. It's how Otto got his idea to change the world at the point of Kallen's death.

The timeline on the Wiki is horrid, yeah.
 
Like you made a whole argument that the Imaginary Space was 'deeper' than the SoQ off of one word.
Despite the lines upon lines of text that says the Tree and SoQ are equal.

Even if you continued to think that 'deeper' was literal (I don't think you do anymore) there's a mountain of evidence pointing towards the other interpretation to the point where it's not worth discussion.
 
At the time of that scan where 'deeper' is mentioned they were using Kiana's void powers to try access the Imaginary Space / Tree. It's how Otto got his idea to change the world at the point of Kallen's death.

The timeline on the Wiki is horrid, yeah.
Whole cosmology page and scans are either in the wrong order or don't have the full context 🥀 can't find the scan on here that shows Otto's Ascension
 
The whole cosmology page needs a massive rework tbf - I think it needs to be sectioned into different areas like a page for the Tree, a page for the cocoon etc.

Also last thing to do should be a timeline of the whole game, at least brief with links to concepts brought up there, or a link or Hoyostans Reading order lol.

Controversial but I also think if you make a massive downgrade post you should have to tend to the verse's cosmology and fix the page to be consistent.
 
The timeline on the Wiki is horrid, yeah.
I was talking about the translation here but ye.

Like you made a whole argument that the Imaginary Space was 'deeper' than the SoQ off of one word.
Despite the lines upon lines of text that says the Tree and SoQ are equal.
The distinction here is “Space” and “Tree”. I always thought the Tree was equal to SoQ, just not IS.

But if they’re meant to still be the same dimensionality, that’s fine I guess. It’s just seems pretty convoluted.
 
I was talking about the translation here but ye.


The distinction here is “Space” and “Tree”. I always thought the Tree was equal to SoQ, just not IS.

But if they’re meant to still be the same dimensionality, that’s fine I guess. It’s just seems pretty convoluted.

I'm gonna be honest I have no clue why I.S. is higher dimensionally, it just looks like upscale or a highball because nothing in game that I can recall directly affirms this. You can only get Imaginary Space higher dimensionally through weird roundabout arguments like the Imaginary Singularity (but that belongs to the cocoon).
 
flowery hoyo verse strikes again
Not flowery in this case, it’s js bad TLs and Einstein seemingly js lying. Which is honestly what I’m wondering for. Most of the args around my L1A IS scale revolved around the Singularity being within it, but if it’s outside it then that’s even more awkward.
 
Not flowery in this case, it’s js bad TLs and Einstein seemingly js lying. Which is honestly what I’m wondering for. Most of the args around my L1A IS scale revolved around the Singularity being within it, but if it’s outside it then that’s even more awkward.
Pretty sure the Imaginary Singularity is still in Imaginary Space, I just don't see how it'd upscale imaginary space when it's a direct product of the cocoon... and also probably how Herrschers get Honkai Energy.

When I first saw the scene I thought it meant every Herrscher had a corresponding coordinate in imaginary space where they leeched imaginary energy from to power themselves... which I think could be valid.

Now I think it's just the cocoon as all herrscher cores are just projections of the cocoon / its different parts, and the cocoon is the one doing it.
 
Not flowery in this case, it’s js bad TLs and Einstein seemingly js lying. Which is honestly what I’m wondering for. Most of the args around my L1A IS scale revolved around the Singularity being within it, but if it’s outside it then that’s even more awkward.
ykw fair enough. i was also getting confused cause everyone was saying that ims was the origin of space and dimensions but the cocoon also is? how can their be 2 origins lmao. no more 12D HDE aeons tho
 
Pretty sure the Imaginary Singularity is still in Imaginary Space, I just don't see how it'd upscale imaginary space when it's a direct product of the cocoon... and also probably how Herrschers get Honkai Energy.

When I first saw the scene I thought it meant every Herrscher had a corresponding coordinate in imaginary space where they leeched imaginary energy from to power themselves... which I think could be valid.

Now I think it's just the cocoon as all herrscher cores are just projections of the cocoon / its different parts, and the cocoon is the one doing it.
if u argue img singularity being origin of space according to welt you can argue img singularity above img space
 
Wasn’t there a recent statement in Part 2 about Cocoon being beyond Space and Time or something along those lines?

Pretty sure the Imaginary Singularity is still in Imaginary Space, I just don't see how it'd upscale imaginary space when it's a direct product of the cocoon...
But if it’s literally within the same realm then it can’t be ontologically different from it. So it either upscales IS or it delimits it. If Cocoon is the origin of IS and it remains in some part outside of it, that’s fine, but it js doesn’t see like that’s the case at all.
 
if u argue img singularity being origin of space according to welt you can argue img singularity above img space
I mean if anything the Imaginary Singularity should be above imaginary space since it's dimensionless while also being stated to occupy all dimensions... it also lines up with how Welt beats Ryusuke.
Also it comes from the cocoon (The imaginary singularity) or it IS the cocoon.

Wasn’t there a recent statement in Part 2 about Cocoon being beyond Space and Time or something along those lines?
No clue, haven't played yet.
But if it’s literally within the same realm then it can’t be ontologically different from it. So it either upscales IS or it delimits it. If Cocoon is the origin of IS and it remains in some part outside of it, that’s fine, but it js doesn’t see like that’s the case at all.
Well we know the Imaginary Singularity is different because it's flat out stated.
Also the cocoon isn't the origin of Imaginary Space it just is dimensionally higher and seems to occupy space there.
 
Also the cocoon isn't the origin of Imaginary Space it just is dimensionally higher and seems to occupy space there.
Viewing the Cocoon from Imaginary Space (if we were to put this in lower dimensional terms) is like a 2D person viewing a 3D sphere. They see a 2D circle and that circle to them has mappable coordinates but doesn't paint the full picture of the 3D object. The Imaginary Space / Tree provides a lower dimensional representation of what the Cocoon is. It HAS to exist above the Tree.
So can we js have the scans for this or is it meant to be implicit as well
 
Wasn’t there a recent statement in Part 2 about Cocoon being beyond Space and Time or something along those lines?


Alright, now I understand what ‘exchange is meaningless’ means.
This is a dimension that transcends time and space.
Those who do not receive ‘Cocoon's’ recognition cannot take anything from here—
not even memories or cognition...”
`No matter what you hear or see, you cannot take away information that transcends your original dimension — in a certain sense, this is very fair.
hoyo very consistently glazes cof to be origin of space (alien key) beyond all dimensions (chapter 38) and now this
 
So can we js have the scans for this or is it meant to be implicit as well
First one is part 1.5, visible in the cosmology page.

The second way is the only logical way things can work within the situation the hi3 writers have put themselves in icl lmao. Unless it exists in Imaginary Space (we know it does) and is completely unobservable within it... (but then why would Eins be looking). This part is just weird tbh.
 
also this proves anyone whos cocoon goon is a projection of CoF but unfortunately i dont have exact scan but only this quote

Perhaps even the one who was just speaking with me was only a projection refracted from the distant sky onto the bottom of the water…
 
but but but but low 1-A!!! (im fine with this)
I mean it’s not intrinsically impossible per se for Low 1-A if it transcends IS, but everything about it is js… weird.

First one is part 1.5, visible in the cosmology page.
The scans js tell me it’s a dimensionless point within Imaginary Space, unless that’s what’s being meant by it projecting itself unto IS.

7 compact dimensions
 
The scans js tell me it’s a dimensionless point within Imaginary Space, unless that’s what’s being meant by it projecting itself unto IS.
- Also the cocoon isn't the origin of Imaginary Space it just is dimensionally higher and seems to occupy space there.

The Cocoon is higher dimensional than Imaginary Space is what I mean here. In Part 1.5 it's stated that Kiana transcends all dimensions as she's part of the cocoon.

Two different links there btw.
 
I mean it’s not intrinsically impossible per se for Low 1-A if it transcends IS, but everything about it is js… weird.


The scans js tell me it’s a dimensionless point within Imaginary Space, unless that’s what’s being meant by it projecting itself unto IS.
i dont remember anything that says cof is even in imaginary space, i mean the page itself just says that it operates on its confines but theres no direct scan that says that + those are alr nuked, on top of that the wiki just says its “unknown imaginary space” but thats about it no scan nor ref supports that meanwhile game tells us it transcends dimensions its origin of space and transcends space and time where everything below cocoon cannot even interact so its up to hoyo to not fumble this (they will)
 
- Also the cocoon isn't the origin of Imaginary Space it just is dimensionally higher and seems to occupy space there.

The Cocoon is higher dimensional than Imaginary Space is what I mean here. In Part 1.5 it's stated that Kiana transcends all dimensions as she's part of the cocoon.

Two different links there btw.
i dont remember anything that says cof is even in imaginary space, i mean the page itself just says that it operates on its confines but theres no direct scan that says that + those are alr nuked, on top of that the wiki just says its “unknown imaginary space” but thats about it no scan nor ref supports that meanwhile game tells us it transcends dimensions its origin of space and transcends space and time where everything below cocoon cannot even interact so its up to hoyo to not fumble this (they will)
I’m saying that Cocoon is the Imaginary Singularity itself and that the Imaginary Singularity is a dimensionless point within Imaginary Space. So either the Singularity is js a fragmentation of the higher-dimensional Cocoon or the Cocoon is literally js located there and is js a 0-dimensional point within a higher-dimensional coordinate space.
 
I’m saying that Cocoon is the Imaginary Singularity itself and that the Imaginary Singularity is a dimensionless point within Imaginary Space. So either the Singularity is js a fragmentation of the higher-dimensional Cocoon or the Cocoon is literally js located there and is js a 0-dimensional point within a higher-dimensional coordinate space.
Nova…how are you 0D if u transcend all dimensions + space and time? i mean if this is 0D in question its just bde2 atp
 
The issue is that @PlungingThroughTime keeps saying that Cocoon exists within Imaginary Space in dimensional slices so I’m tryna clarify how exactly that works when Cocoon has no dimensions
well unless i see scan that says cof exist in img space i dont think ill agree with 0D CoF tho if IS is just higher realm than the tree then IS can just stat low 1-C/A via cocoon
i will drop something abt primordial chaos and SoQ later since apparently original CN doesnt say tree emerged from soq
 
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