The nuking of Undertale: Part 1 out of 6 or 7

[Armorchompy]

It's pretty heavily implied that she is one that attacks us in battlebox, not her hypothetical clones.

You spare her by using the "Approach" ACT and making her flustered as you move closer to the planes. Do think it's just her.

Right. In that case I suppose you just calc her size (whether on the overworld or her battle sprite) and then use that to scale her attack sprite, though this is kind of a no-win scenario, it's gonna be weird no matter what.

 

[Qurbonboev]

whether on the overworld or her battle sprite

I already calced that feat(of her throwing heavy and fast bombs at us) here, via overworld size. Could you eval it, if you have free time currently.

Waiting for OP to calc cm per size via "comparing Asgore to humans in intro" > "comparing Asgore cm and px size(of battle sprite) to find ratio", so I could recalc some more calcs

 

[Rodriiogo]

Waiting for OP to calc cm per size via "comparing Asgore to humans in intro" > "comparing Asgore cm and px size(of battle sprite) to find ratio", so I could recalc some more calcs

I already explained why I'm not doing that. Do I need to repeat why it's inconsistent. Don't ask me to calc nonsense and I will.

"2 meters frisk", "Giant toriel/asgore" even tho they are showed in both the game and official art to have a normal height compared to regular objects.

 

[Rodriiogo]

And for the tsunderplane convo I will just repeat this as my opinion:

At this point I'd agree with this aswell if people will keep bringing on inconsistencies for every method ever conceivable, either choose the one who you think is more consistent and ignore the inconsistencies. But if you don't wanna ignore the inconsistencies, then scrap battle box scaling entirely, there you go, that's the consistency you want.

And if you want further explanation on why it's just an inconsistency.

Do you think Vulkin's attacks and body grow in size by like 10x just because tsunderplane is fighting alongside him now? This vulkin who's smaller than Sans even in a special artwork made for the 5th anniversary? The vulkin who is also called tiny by Mettaton's broadcast?

 

[Qurbonboev]

"2 meters frisk"

Repeating armor
"In fact I think the whole reason for this debacle is that the overworld's visuals are not internally consistent due to stylization, and I think it's a good idea to prioritize the combat visuals due to higher fidelity."
So no 2 meter(or whatever value you would get, it definitely lower than that) Frisk from directly comparing their Overworld sprite to Asgore.

"Giant toriel/asgore"

We currently accept Toriel as almost 8 feet monster, so she is already giant. Asgore and Toriel use mostly regular monster objects, which should scale accordingly to monster heights.

And for the tsunderplane convo I will just repeat this as my opinion:

Practically no method is 100% consistent(and I don't think any verse was banned from pixelscaling due to bit of inconsistency here and there. Maybe some of them were, I am not historic of this site, but don't think inconsistency in UT is that giant to warrant such radical move).
In that particular case narrative is clear that this is actual Tsunderplane that is attacking us. So her size should be used.


I am still waiting for your response on LS btw. You didn't forget that this is part of your CRT and you suppose to answer objections regarding it, isn't?

 

[Qurbonboev]

And if you want further explanation on why it's just an inconsistency.

I would say nah. This is why I would use Tsunderplane actual height exclusively for her and bombs that she launches

 

[Rodriiogo]

Repeating armor
"In fact I think the whole reason for this debacle is that the overworld's visuals are not internally consistent due to stylization, and I think it's a good idea to prioritize the combat visuals due to higher fidelity."
So no 2 meter(or whatever value you would get, it definitely lower than that) Frisk from directly comparing their Overworld sprite to Asgore.

Your calc for Tsunderplane's length.... uses the overworld.

We currently accept Toriel as almost 8 feet monster, so she is already giant. Asgore and Toriel use mostly regular monster objects, which should scale accordingly to monster heights.

The humans must be so kind and great to create giant streets, giant pavements and beaches, giant school, giant bushes and a giant house for Toriel to live in, in the surface.

Frisk calls the sink in the mettaton cooking show the regularly sized sink, do you think Mettaton was dwarfing it during this scene?

Papyrus gets a flag from Undyne from the overworld. Did the humans that dropped it in the mountain convinently had a giant flag?

Or the fact that all modern technology that the underworld has and alot of objects come from the surface? Were they all convinently sized extra for some reason when they fell?

There's also official artworks of them compared to other characters if you wanna consider author's intent obviously being that they are not giants.

Practically no method is 100% consistent(and I don't think any verse was banned from pixelscaling due to bit of inconsistency here and there. Maybe some of them were, I am not historic of this site, but don't think inconsistency in UT is that giant to warrant such radical move)

If pixel scaling is considered impossible for something it can indeed be fully scrapped/discarded. Considering everyone will always bring up inconsistencies and always want new solutions, might aswell scrap pixel scaling via battle box entirely.

In that particular case narrative is clear that this is actual Tsunderplane that is attacking us. So her size should be used.

I would say nah. This is why I would use Tsunderplane actual height exclusively for her and bombs that she launches

So you will just ignore vulkin being there? Make up smth as valid and ignore the volcano next to it making it inconsistent? It is very much just an inconsistency, it's one example where the battle box decided to show big stuff as small in it.

I am still waiting for your response on LS btw. You didn't forget that this is part of your CRT and you suppose to answer objections regarding it, isn't?

LS is something that I considered that the supporters would actually talk about between them cause I have no strong opinion on it. Just tell me what do you want and if other supporters agree I will add it.


And again
The thread is 8 pages long already. Two mods showed up and only one voted, at this point it should indeed be calmed down otherwise this is never gonna end cause no mod is gonna read all of it.

 

[Armorchompy]

Regardless of their size I think it's a little silly to act as though Tsunderplane's bombs are working similarly to IRL munitions in any way when they instead create a pillar of fire.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Regardless of their size I think it's a little silly to act as though Tsunderplane's bombs are working similarly to IRL munitions in any way when they instead create a pillar of fire.

It kinda goes to small building due to mettaton shaking the building ? I could argue it could go large building if shake the entire lab tho

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

It kinda goes to small building due to mettaton shaking the building ? I could argue it could go large building if shake the entire lab tho

Yeah. Mettaton somehow, miraculously, landed a hit so strong it made the entire lab shake, and yet the wall didn’t suffer any kind of damage until he broke the flimsy fake wall Alphys had prepared in advance (something the OP already explained multiples times).

The Lab’s walls scale to Large Building level. That totally sounds coherent.

All of this was already discussed in the thread. Could you avoid bringing up topics that have already been addressed? The amount of mental gymnastics going on in this thread to drag things out is honestly absurd.

Let’s just wait for more input from other staff members.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Yeah. Mettaton somehow, miraculously, landed a hit so strong it made the entire lab shake, and yet the wall didn’t suffer any kind of damage until he broke the flimsy fake wall Alphys had prepared in advance (something the OP already explained multiples times).

The Lab’s walls scale to Large Building level. That totally sounds coherent.

All of this was already discussed in the thread. Could you avoid bringing up topics that have already been addressed? The amount of mental gymnastics going on in this thread to drag things out is honestly absurd.

Let’s just wait for more input from other staff members.

Like you guys dont even talk about the tree that growth in hot land

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Okay so having read through the points (for the most part, it's been 8 pages and some of them were kind of confusing at points) I'm going to go with Armor's suggestion where the scale is just based on the battle sprites/Mettaton because of the soul sprite's inherent inconsistencies. Sounds better than basically arguing over which version of the soul's scale is better when it has inconsistencies and Toby has said scales aren't always consistent.

Edit: Also to clarify because I was asked offsite, the rest of the OP seems fine also

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Okay so having read through the points (for the most part, it's been 8 pages and some of them were kind of confusing at points) I'm going to go with Armor's suggestion where the scale is just based on the battle sprites/Mettaton because of the soul sprite's inherent inconsistencies. Sounds better than basically arguing over which version of the soul's scale is better when it has inconsistencies and Toby has said scales aren't always consistent.

Just question unrelated but technically realated how you feel about the tree in hotland and the monster building in the undertale livestream ?

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Just question unrelated but technically realated how you feel about the tree in hotland and the monster building in the undertale livestream ?

If you mean the anniversary livestream I never watched it. Planned on it but never actually got around to it

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

If you mean the anniversary livestream I never watched it. Planned on it but never actually got around to it

Should i give the watercooler time and growth manipulation ?

 

[Comiphorous]

Should i give the watercooler time and growth manipulation ?

actually, people normally would call this the thing plants do called "growing", not time manipulation.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

actually, people normally would call this the thing plants do called "growing", not time manipulation.

I dont think it normal growth tho

 

[Mommyleona]

I dont think it normal growth tho

this is NOT a thread to discuss this, you've been told multiple times already

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

this is NOT a thread to discuss this, you've been told multiple times already

Kinda, i just think you guys should talk about more due the amount of connection water with determinetion as subtance

 

[Kellex]

snip

Please stop with the derailing and irrelevant topics. You've already said you'll stop if it gets annoying, and yet you continued to do so.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Your calc for Tsunderplane's length.... uses the overworld.

It was done before we reached somekinda of consensus regarding pixelscaling.

The humans must be so kind and great to create giant streets, giant pavements and beaches, giant school, giant bushes and a giant house for Toriel to live in, in the surface.

I will concede on this arguments. Only things I want to add is:
1. Papyrus (who is intended to represent human skeleton) is prolly closer to average adult male height than Mettaton(machine made for entertainment and war). And figuring his battle sprite height is a bit less easier.
2. Use this value for average adult male height
3. Calc size of "ACT" button. Why specifically it? It's the most ubiquitous part of battle system (it even appears in Omega Flowey, and remains in the fight with Asriel till the end)

LS is something that I considered that the supporters would actually talk about between them cause I have no strong opinion on it. Just tell me what do you want and if other supporters agree I will add it.

Just scale Asgore/Toriel and whoever who scales to full value of Flowey calc. It's my only objection to your LS part.

 

[Qurbonboev]

It is very much just an inconsistency, it's one example where the battle box decided to show big stuff as small in it.

Yes, this is just inconsistency, stemmed from the fact that Toby decided to depict Tsunderplane much smaller than expected for sake of making interesting bullet pattern. Obviously we wouldn't treat that situation as if Tsunderplane magically became much smaller, and use her actual height for her(and her bombs) measurements.

Regardless of their size I think it's a little silly to act as though Tsunderplane's bombs are working similarly to IRL munitions in any way when they instead create a pillar of fire.

I don't think pillar of fire would displace vertically like this. And this pillar displaces in same direction that bomb was thrown into. It seemingly behaves much more like pillar of smoke, which munitions do create IRL.
Besides comparison with munitions is purely for sake of finding weight of bomb (which ut does have, it even accelerates as it falls).

Yeah. Mettaton somehow, miraculously, landed a hit so strong it made the entire lab shake, and yet the wall didn’t suffer any kind of damage until he broke the flimsy fake wall Alphys had prepared in advance (something the OP already explained multiples times).

The Lab’s walls scale to Large Building level. That totally sounds coherent.

All of this was already discussed in the thread. Could you avoid bringing up topics that have already been addressed? The amount of mental gymnastics going on in this thread to drag things out is honestly absurd.

Let’s just wait for more input from other staff members.

Mettaton wall shaking was practically never discussed in there. And consensus about this feat was that first strikes were targeting other metal walls(which OP does think exists). Regardless, it's not even calced yet, so it's better to not discuss it here entirely. I am personally waiting for CGM opinion on whether it could be calced at all

 

[Qurbonboev]

Also to clarify because I was asked offsite, the rest of the OP seems fine also

Thanks for the input.

You agree to LS parts too? Cus OP themselves is saying that they want sups opinion on this(and my opinion on this is a little bit different than what he currently proposes)

LS is something that I considered that the supporters would actually talk about between them cause I have no strong opinion on it. Just tell me what do you want and if other supporters agree I will add it.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Thanks for the input.

You agree to LS parts too? Cus OP themselves is saying that they want sups opinion on this(and my opinion on this is a little bit different than what he currently proposes)

Is the consensus any different than what's listed on the OP?

 

[Qurbonboev]

Is the consensus any different than what's listed on the OP?

There no consensus regarding LS, since there were practically no debate regarding it. Better wait for Rodriiogo response to my proposal (scaling Toriel and Asgore to full value of Flowey calc, instead of power of one vine). Wouldn't take too long

 

[Armorchompy]

Besides comparison with munitions is purely for sake of finding weight of bomb (which ut does have, it even accelerates as it falls).

Sure, but then you get another problem where Mark 82 are unguided bombs, meaning they just get dropped down and freefall towards the target. So you're saying gravity is pushing this bomb down at Mach 3.5... Just don't use that feat, there's enough inconsistencies with the visuals to make it unusable and then it's just exploiting weird speed stacking KE which makes it just as bad as the Mettaton kicks.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Snip

Ok.
What do you think of this line of proposals?

1. Papyrus (who is intended to represent human skeleton) is prolly closer to average adult male height than Mettaton(machine made for entertainment and war). And figuring his battle sprite height is a bit less easier.
2. Use this value for average adult male height
3. Calc size of "ACT" button. Why specifically it? It's the most ubiquitous part of battle system (it even appears in Omega Flowey, and remains in the fight with Asriel till the end)

Snip

What you think about my proposals above? Btw, use Papyrus right(his own right) leg to scale, since it's not skewed that much as left one.

 

[Armorchompy]

Ok.
What do you think of this line of proposals?


What you think about my proposals above? Btw, use Papyrus right(his own right) leg to scale, since it's not skewed that much as left one.

seems fine to me

 

[Qurbonboev]

seems fine to me

What do you think of this:
Instead of just assuming that he is average adult male height, still use comparison of his Overworld sprite to Frisk one. Yes, such sprites are bit inconsistent, but both them and combat sprite support him being pretty tall, even compared to other tall monsters. And we know that monsters can be taller than humans with ease. Kris is noted to be shortest in their party, and they are 16 year old teenager(age at which people stop their growth for the most part).
This will yields height of around 190 cm or less, which isn't out of reach by any means

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I'm gonna ignore all the nonsense of stuff I already goddamn answered three times as I said, I will wait for staff, but I wanna help you here:

Man, please fix your pixelscaling.

The height I got for toriel is taller than yours and the soul is STILL smaller than you got.

I think this is a good value. The calculations should definitely use this number in my opinion.

I think it is a good compromise. It isn’t far from the 15 cm proposed by the OP.

 

[Armorchompy]

What do you think of this:
Instead of just assuming that he is average adult male height, still use comparison of his Overworld sprite to Frisk one. Yes, such sprites are bit inconsistent, but both them and combat sprite support him being pretty tall, even compared to other tall monsters. And we know that monsters can be taller than humans with ease. Kris is noted to be shortest in their party, and they are 16 year old teenager(age at which people stop their growth for the most part).
This will yields height of around 190 cm or less, which isn't out of reach by any means

Are you sure you linked the right thing? Either way eh we're just falling back into the previous trappings, I'm not opposed to Papyrus being a tall guy but it's not like Frisk is a good source of pixel scaling, they're a human being of unknown gender, age and race, you can't assume their height with any kind of specificity

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Are you sure you linked the right thing? Either way eh we're just falling back into the previous trappings, I'm not opposed to Papyrus being a tall guy but it's not like Frisk is a good source of pixel scaling, they're a human being of unknown gender, age and race, you can't assume their height with any kind of specificity

The difference of one letter tho bettewen frisk and kris

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

So how is the staff members count so far?

 

[Qurbonboev]

they're a human being of unknown gender, age and race, you can't assume their height with any kind of specificity

AFAIK comparison against regularly size kitchen sink puts Frisk in same range of height as current one.

I think this is a good value. The calculations should definitely use this number in my opinion.

I think it is a good compromise. It isn’t far from the 15 cm proposed by the OP.

As I have already said, it's probably most reliable method. We directly see another SOUL in the battlebox after. And there is no indication that human and monster SOULs differ in size

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

As I have already said, it's probably most reliable method. We directly see another SOUL in the battlebox after. And there is no indication that human and monster SOULs differ in size

Yeah honestly I agree with that. It's a WAY better value than the current one.

I wonder if Rodriigo is okay with it or not.

 

[Armorchompy]

(I don't hate the toriel soul method by the way)

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Can someone tag staff members here, please?

 

[Qurbonboev]

(I don't hate the toriel soul method by the way)

I think it should be preferred since it's most straightforward way. We know that Monster Soul should be roughly equal to Human Souls(based on Asriel scene), Toriel Soul looks same size as ours.(And I have already said that I am fine with this method 1 page ago)

Can someone tag staff members here, please?

We don't need another staff member rn(we already have two, only one left).
We need OP opinion on preferred method for SOUL size or combat system size, and for some LS questions

Snip

Are you ok? Were you busy for some reason, or just drained completely by debate? If latter, my bad. I prolly should work on my style of debate, and overall formatting of response. Something like how it's done here would be much better. (Not saying you were without flaws in this thread, you repeatedly misrepresented me, but it's all irrelevant now)

 

[Armorchompy]

I think it should be preferred since it's most straightforward way. We know that Monster Soul should be roughly equal to Human Souls(based on Asriel scene), Toriel Soul looks same size as ours.(And I have already said that I am fine with this method 1 page ago)

I prefer my method, if people lean towards this one it's fine though.

 

[Mommyleona]

Bump