MCU Phase 6 General Discussion Thread

[RoTt35]

Thread 'Major MCU Speed Downgrade: Far From Bullet Speeds' https://vsbattles.com/threads/major-mcu-speed-downgrade-far-from-bullet-speeds.188818/

Not that absurd, check it out. Pretty consistent

Btw, shouldn't Thor have MHS+ attack speed with lightning on all his keys? Currently he only has it on his Pre-Awakening key

 

[Lonkitt]

My God, when did everyone’s speed get downgraded to subsonic? I thought the ratings were a bit inflated for the street tiers, but this is absurd

Not absurd. What's absurd is that the MCU lacks any real Supersonic feats

 

[Raincutter]

Honestly, it seems to me like the reasoning, if applied consistently, would destroy a lot of verses speed scaling. I mean, just off the top of my head, Monsterverse kaijus scale to high hypersonic, yet the humans can keep track of them and they’re never shown with slow mo visuals.



Plus there’s a lot of feats that, while not calced, that are just ignored. Off the top of my head, Strange reacts to an explosion in the first film, pretty much everyone reacts to Iron Man’s repulsors, Thanos reacts to photon beams, etc.

 

[Raincutter]

Can’t believe the verse gets blitzed by Agent 47 now

 

[Mr._Propeller_Hat]

Plus there’s a lot of feats that, while not calced, that are just ignored. Off the top of my head, Strange reacts to an explosion in the first film, pretty much everyone reacts to Iron Man’s repulsors, Thanos reacts to photon beams, etc.

IIrc, Carol's photon beams were rejected from SOL

 

[Dalesean027]

Honestly, it seems to me like the reasoning, if applied consistently, would destroy a lot of verses speed scaling. I mean, just off the top of my head, Monsterverse kaijus scale to high hypersonic, yet the humans can keep track of them and they’re never shown with slow mo visuals

Speed via sheer size is a thing but thats different from standard speeds in a way but if this invalidated other verses then they should be treated the same and downgraded as such? Thats not really a counter if its meant to be one.


But yeah in the case of hundreds of meters to kilometer sized kaiju's it doesn't take superhuman anything to see somethat that big moving even if they are technically fast its just via size which isn't really the the same as if it were someone normal sized moving tbe same speed

pretty much everyone reacts to Iron Man’s repulsors, Thanos reacts to photon beams, etc.

Repulors have no stated speed and a beam being made of light doesn't make it light speed, besides both are far below that consistently as you'd see reading through the OP

 

[Dalesean027]

Btw, shouldn't Thor have MHS+ attack speed with lightning on all his keys? Currently he only has it on his Pre-Awakening key

He should still have that for each key, thats just an editing mistake and should be corrected if someone can real quick

 

[Raincutter]

Speed via sheer size is a thing but thats different from standard speeds in a way but if this invalidated other verses then they should be treated the same and downgraded as such? Thats not really a counter if its meant to be one.


But yeah in the case of hundreds of meters to kilometer sized kaiju's it doesn't take superhuman anything to see somethat that big moving even if they are technically fast its just via size which isn't really the the same as if it were someone normal sized moving tbe same speed


Repulors have no stated speed and a beam being made of light doesn't make it light speed, besides both are far below that consistently as you'd see reading through the OP

I guess the speed scaling philosophy of the CRT is so stringent beyond what I've seen most scalers on and off this site use that it should probably be clarified if that's the meta the wiki is going with since you can downplay most speed feats. Consistency only becomes an issue if you accept that sort of nitpicking since several of the "anti feats" go away if you scale otherwise. I mean, I get using Cap getting tagged by bullets as an anti feat, but saying Spider-Man's subsonic because a train moved in real time in the background as he threw a punch? Really? The logical implication of this is that these characters aren't even subsonic and are just moving as fast as the actors are. I always thought the focus was on the thing being dodged or reacted to more so than NPCs or set pieces not being frozen in the background.

Monsterverse isn't the only one that suffers this. 2025 Superman blatantly gets reacted to by humans who control Ultraman, but he's MHS. Even the stuff the other guy was saying earlier about the DCEU. Just because they're shown moving as a blur relative to humans would still only put them at subsonic-supersonic speeds if you actually want to judge off their speed relative to the background, not the sub-rel/rel rating they currently have, as you can see stuff fall in real time, background people running away, etc, in several scenes. This aspect of the argument imo is very arbitrary and it should've just focused on the WoG/anti-feats statements.

 

[Lonkitt]

I mean, I get using Cap getting tagged by bullets as an anti feat, but saying Spider-Man's subsonic because a train moved in real time in the background as he threw a punch? Really? The logical implication of this is that these characters aren't even subsonic and are just moving as fast as the actors are. I always thought the focus was on the thing being dodged or reacted to more so than NPCs or set pieces not being frozen in the background.

If this was like, any other verse with actual consistent higher end feats, then yeah the train thing wouldn't mean anything. But the Raimiverse's anti-feats, paired with scenes like Sandman getting tagged by an attack entirely sped by a train's momentum, within a series that's already blatantly a visual medium, point to stuff like that slowed down punch scene actually being more consistent with lower speeds. Obviously we weren't JUST looking at the slow motion punch and saying "well, that can't work". We brought it up because unfortunately, it lines up with the Raimiverse being MUUUUCH slower than anything even close to MHS+

 

[Lonkitt]

Monsterverse isn't the only one that suffers this. 2025 Superman blatantly gets reacted to by humans who control Ultraman, but he's MHS. Even the stuff the other guy was saying earlier about the DCEU. Just because they're shown moving as a blur relative to humans would still only put them at subsonic-supersonic speeds if you actually want to judge off their speed relative to the background, not the sub-rel/rel rating they currently have, as you can see stuff fall in real time, background people running away, etc, in several scenes. This aspect of the argument imo is very arbitrary and it should've just focused on the WoG/anti-feats statements.

Okay, here's another thing. Why are people relying on whataboutism here? This isn't about "what about this verse" and so on. It's about the MCU. Bringing up other live action verses isn't gonna make the MCU's anti-feats and consistent Subsonic speeds vanish

Also, DCU Superman actually has consistent MHS scaling at the moment in such a manner that scales to his combat speed and reactions. People like Thor are not the same

 

[Dalesean027]

This aspect of the argument imo is very arbitrary and it should've just focused on the WoG/anti-feats statements

Bro clearly didn't read the thread, there's like 50 minimum statements and anti-feats together brought up in the thread with like another 50 feats in the subsonic range.

 

[Isaacbobanka]

Bro clearly didn't read the thread, there's like 50 minimum statements and anti-feats together brought up in the thread with like another 50 feats in the subsonic range.

50 anti-feats thats mostly based on street tiers who normally have guns while thor conistantly fights against characters who can react to his lightning which should give Thor atleast massivly hypersonic combat speed scale.

In your thread the limiter from Quicksilver was for the characters who appeard frozen yet Thor did not appear frozen while the rest of the Avengers were showing him> street tiers in combat speed. While it might be consistant for some characters having higher ups like Thor who does have higher speed makes it inconsistant.

Honestly i think the Quicksilver scene showed that there are levels between Thor and the others speed and that he should not be limited but have his own consistant speed scale since alot of the said outliers are from him aswell.

 

[Lonkitt]

50 anti-feats thats mostly based on street tiers who normally have guns while thor conistantly fights against characters who can react to his lightning which should give Thor atleast massivly hypersonic combat speed scale.

Blatant proof that you didn't pick up on the high tier feats that were debunked, as well as the high tier anti-feats consistently addressed

Also, the streets tiers are on par with high tiers in speed anyways. There's not a difference. Spider-Man could shmoove around Thanos for a bit, and he's fodder compared to Thanos

react to his lightning

Crazy how this straight up doesn't happen

 

[Dalesean027]

50 anti-feats thats mostly based on street tiers who normally have guns while thor conistantly fights against characters who can react to his lightning which should give Thor atleast massivly hypersonic combat speed scale.

Dawg Thor has several himself shown in that thread, it explains why 14 of the calcs used for MHS don't work under their current justifications and scene context using no conjecture only what happens on screen.

You ignore that quicksilver has half a dozen bullet speed or speed of sound ranging speed statements with one outright being 400m/s so thor being slower also fits subsonic too

there's a whole load more im just not going to rehash again but its clear you didn't actually even read it in full and just skimmed a part of it so you're not even worth responding to

 

[Lonkitt]

Bro clearly didn't read the thread, there's like 50 minimum brought up in the thread with like another 50 feats in the subsonic range

I ain't tryna start anything with those we disagree with the downgrades, but I've noticed certain responses from with those against the Speed Downgrade

1. "They can't be that slow, what about this feat/calc"? [The feat/calc has already been addressed and debunked in the OP]
2. "This can be applied to literally any other live action verse though, what about those?" [Irrelevant to bring up since this is only about the MCU, also just not true generally speaking]
3. "Are we REALLY using this ONE SPECIFIC SCENE to justify a downgrade?" [The user is conveniently ignoring that this is just one of many scenes being used to justify a downgrade]
4. "At least Thanos and Captain Marvel keep their speed" [No they don't, it was covered in the OP]
5. "WoG shouldn't be favoured over feats" [It literally isn't. WoG is actually consistent with the Subsonic cast wide feats]
6. "These anti-feats are just the writers not understanding their characters' speed or their physics" [And you know them better because...?]
7. "The high tiers should still be faster" [Speed is not directly correlated with power in the MCU. This isn't like how power levels operate in Dragon Ball. Quicksilver's faster than the Averages, but he'd get turned to paste if Thor or Hulk swatted him]
8. "Eliminating the cross-scaling goes against the narrative tho" [We have crossover scaling rules, this isn't actually new at all. Have fun trying to scale Insomniac Spidey to Superior Spider-Man because of their random ass crossover that doesn't hold up scaling wise on either end]

 

[Dalesean027]

I ain't tryna start anything with those we disagree with the downgrades, but I've noticed certain responses from with those against the Speed Downgrade

1. "They can't be that slow, what about this feat/calc"? [The feat/calc has already been addressed and debunked in the OP]
2. "This can be applied to literally any other live action verse though, what about those?" [Irrelevant to bring up since this is only about the MCU, also just not true generally speaking]
3. "Are we REALLY using this ONE SPECIFIC SCENE to justify a downgrade?" [The user is conveniently ignoring that this is just one of many scenes being used to justify a downgrade]
4. "At least Thanos and Captain Marvel keep their speed" [No they don't, it was covered in the OP]
5. "WoG shouldn't be favoured over feats" [It literally isn't. WoG is actually consistent with the Subsonic cast wide feats]
6. "These anti-feats are just the writers not understanding their characters' speed or their physics" [And you know them better because...?]
7. "The high tiers should still be faster" [Speed is not directly correlated with power in the MCU. This isn't like how power levels operate in Dragon Ball. Quicksilver's faster than the Averages, but he'd get turned to paste of Thor or Hulk swatted him]
8. "Eliminating the cross-scaling goes against the narrative tho" [We have crossover scaling rules, this isn't actually new at all. Have fun trying to scale Insomniac Spidey to Superior Spider-Man because of their random ass crossover that doesn't hold up scaling wise on either end]

Facts its the same consistent replies from those who haven't read it in full or refuse to accept the higher ends just aren't consistent.


While on the flip side there's wasn't a single staff disagreement and like 99% of users who commented agreed. Very curious

 

[Lonkitt]

Facts its the same consistent replies from those who haven't read it in full or refuse to accept the higher ends just aren't consistent.


While on the flip side there's wasn't a single staff disagreement and like 99% of users who commented agreed. Very curious

Also notice how most of the people complaining about it were doing so when the thread was still underway, but decided to just complain here rather than talk

It wasn't even a fast revision. It could've been applied earlier, but more feats were calculated just to be safe (which resulted in more Superhuman-Subsonic feats)

Where were the people who disagreed during that stretch? They had enough time to comment here, but not on the thread itself?

 

[Isaacbobanka]

You ignore that quicksilver has half a dozen bullet speed or speed of sound ranging speed statements with one outright being 400m/s so thor being slower also fits subsonic too

there's a whole load more im just not going to rehash again but its clear you didn't actually even read it in full and just skimmed a part of it so you're not even worth responding to

From his profile he has two and both makes zero sense to use for downplay/downgrade:

First statment gets disproven becuse of the second as he progressively becomes faster and the person never actually states when he is at that speed it shouldn't be used.

Second statement: States that he can move 400 m/s but this is from hydra mening in the start of the movie or before it not when they get statued and also mentions he gets faster.

Also i have read it though and i based my argument on your proposal which was that all characters frozen should get limited to Quicksilvers speed something that Thor wasen't

 

[Isaacbobanka]

Also notice how most of the people complaining about it were doing so when the thread was still underway, but decided to just complain here rather than talk

It wasn't even a fast revision. It could've been applied earlier, but more feats were calculated just to be safe (which resulted in more Superhuman-Subsonic feats)

Where were the people who disagreed during that stretch? They had enough time to comment here, but not on the thread itself?

Because i know from other experiences on this wiki that moderator tend to ignore users who disagree and close the thread/apply changes before you can actually make arguments which has now happend TWICE when ive made a disagreement on mcu thread. I littarly went to sleep and then i woke up and the thread was closed.

 

[Isaacbobanka]

Blatant proof that you didn't pick up on the high tier feats that were debunked, as well as the high tier anti-feats consistently addressed

Also, the streets tiers are on par with high tiers in speed anyways. There's not a difference. Spider-Man could shmoove around Thanos for a bit, and he's fodder compared to Thanos



Crazy how this straight up doesn't happen

The high tier feats that apply to Thor like the Hela one was explained "outlier" and im not just talking about the existing ones there are many feats yet not calculated which includes Thors lightning attacks.

There is tho the feats clearly shows that there is a difference if the street tiers are consistantly showed subsonic speeds while there are more hypersonic feats for characters like Thor.

Gorr reacted to his lightning and so did Hela i could mention more since i am sure there are more characters.

 

[Dalesean027]

Also i have read it though and i based my argument on your proposal which was that all characters frozen should get limited to Quicksilvers speed something that Thor wasen't

Clearly did not read if this was your takeaway of what the proposals were

First statment gets disproven becuse of the second as he progressively becomes faster and the person never actually states when he is at that speed it shouldn't be used.

They can both exist and neither is mutually exclusive so no actually they don't contradict

Second statement: States that he can move 400 m/s but this is from hydra mening in the start of the movie or before it not when they get statued and also mentions he gets faster

Great and when he runs out at the start we know Hawkeye compares his speed to a bullet train or a jet and says its impossible that anyone could be that fast the latter fits his other supersonic statements and doesn't contradict anything either

Again though a subsonic can be seen as in motion by a supersonic, Quicksilver is Supersonic narratively and thor isn't

 

[Lonkitt]

First statment gets disproven becuse of the second as he progressively becomes faster and the person never actually states when he is at that speed it shouldn't be used.

"Progressively becomes faster" and his best speed feat prior to his death doesn't even hit High Hypersonic

MHS+ wasn't gonna be in Quicksilver's grasp

Second statement: States that he can move 400 m/s but this is from hydra mening in the start of the movie or before it not when they get statued and also mentions he gets faster.

Cool, we still have calcs of him later in the film and they're still in the Supersonic range. Not changing much. This actually gets worse when you consider how Hawkeye thought it was impossible for Pietro to be moving faster than a bullet train and a jet

Also i have read it though and i based my argument on your proposal which was that all characters frozen should get limited to Quicksilvers speed something that Thor wasen't

Thor was still moving slow af compared to Quicksilver? Even his hammer was moving uber slow

I littarly went to sleep and then i woke up and the thread was closed.

You commented in this chat about the thread DAYS PRIOR to it actually being applied. You're not slick, I have the receipts

Like I said, this wasn't a fast thread

Because i know from other experiences on this wiki that moderator tend to ignore users who disagree and close the thread/apply changes before you can actually make arguments which has now happend TWICE when ive made a disagreement on mcu thread

This is untrue. I've been literally getting mod and non-mod disagreements on my most recent Raimiverse revision thread, so clearly mods don't have any problems with the idea of disagreeing with something

You can't get upset about this downgrade when you had multiple days to respond with your counter-arguments (which were already debunked in the downgrade thread itself) and then claim "well it wouldn't have mattered anyways since mods ignore me"

You said this happened twice? Big deal man, most users on here have actively given their thoughts in at least 10 or 20 threads. This happens twice and you think you can't contribute? That's a very flawed way of looking at things

 

[Isaacbobanka]

Clearly did not read if this was your takeaway of what the proposals were

Explain how its wrong then it takes you one-two sentences to explain why my argument is wrong insted of trying to say i am stupid.

They can both exist and neither is mutually exclusive so no actually they don't contradict

Please explain this in more simple words i am not a native english speaker and do not understand what your trying to get here. Both of the statements clearly depicts him at the start of the movie or before specially what is shown in feats.

Great and when he runs out at the start we know Hawkeye compar
es his speed to a bullet train or a jet and says its impossible that anyone could be that fast the latter fits his other supersonic statements and doesn't contradict anything either

Another example of why this is just the beginning of the movie.

 

[Lonkitt]

Explain how its wrong then it takes you one-two sentences to explain why my argument is wrong insted of trying to say i am stupid.

He's not calling you stupid. He's saying you didn't read the downgrade thread in its entirety

Another example of why this is just the beginning of the movie.

Not really. Hawkeye always gets blitzed by Quicksilver no matter what speeds he moves at

 

[Isaacbobanka]

"Progressively becomes faster" and his best speed feat prior to his death doesn't even hit High Hypersonic

MHS+ wasn't gonna be in Quicksilver's grasp

Haven't said that it is just saying Thor shouldn't be limited by his speed because he was infact moving in the quicksilver sees everyone as frozen scene.

Cool, we still have calcs of him later in the film and they're still in the Supersonic range. Not changing much. This actually gets worse when you consider how Hawkeye thought it was impossible for Pietro to be moving faster than a bullet train and a

Again in the beginning of the movie which proves my point he got faster when in the scene with the frozen avengers.

Thor was still moving slow af compared to Quicksilver? Even his hammer was moving uber slow

Yes only slowed and if we take this in consideration aswell how can thor have the same speed scaling if he was still moving while Captain America was completly frozen it would make zero sense to have Thor at 90 m/s aswell.

You commented in this chat about the thread DAYS PRIOR to it actually being applied. You're not slick, I have the receipts

Like I said, this wasn't a fast thread

What i mean was accepted when i replied here the thread had already been aproved by basicly several moderators or higher and even then i got told that i would be ignored if i didn't make a comment which was something i was unable to to (it was 2 am in the morning).

Yes this was rusheed as it was a downgrade that downgraded everyone in a verse and was accepted and applied in 3 days which is a short time.

This is untrue. I've been literally getting mod and non-mod disagreements on my most recent Raimiverse revision thread, so clearly mods don't have any problems with the idea of disagreeing with something

There is a difference between hearing someone who is alone against like 10+ people vs a thread already supported by a staff member and those stuff was small things which certenly isn't the same thing.

You can't get upset about this downgrade when you had multiple days to respond with your counter-arguments (which were already debunked in the downgrade thread itself) and then claim "well it wouldn't have mattered anyways since mods ignore me"

You said this happened twice? Big deal man, most users on here have actively given their thoughts in at least 10 or 20 threads. This happens twice and you think you can't contribute? That's a very flawed way of looking at things

I can contribute but i as anyone else have a personal life and i did not want to comment on the thread because i knew that i did not have the time to respond before it was closed and applied (i was right about that). That was the reason i shared my opinion here because this thread wasen't closing.

 

[Isaacbobanka]

He's not calling you stupid. He's saying you didn't read the downgrade thread in its entirety

If he repeatedly says that i don't read through the thread and gets mad at it its calling me stupid with different words and saying that it isn't worth responding to my comment is a direct proof of that

Not really. Hawkeye always gets blitzed by Quicksilver no matter what speeds he moves at

I never argue for street tiers like hawkeye to scale to quicksilver but high tiers like Thor who actually gets faster feats.

 

[Lonkitt]

If he repeatedly says that i don't read through the thread and gets mad at it its calling me stupid with different words and saying that it isn't worth responding to my comment is a direct proof of that

No. He's addressing the fact that you haven't read the thread. That doesn't make you stupid, it means you just didn't read it through. It's clear you haven't read it as you keep bringing up things addressed in the thread

I never argue for street tiers like hawkeye to scale to quicksilver but high tiers like Thor who actually gets faster feats.

Doesn't matter since the street tiers are shown to be in the same ballpark of speed as guys like Thor anyways

Haven't said that it is just saying Thor shouldn't be limited by his speed because he was infact moving in the quicksilver sees everyone as frozen scene.


Again in the beginning of the movie which proves my point he got faster when in the scene with the frozen avengers.

Okay. But he never moves at MHS+ speeds so this doesn't matter

You are just repeating the same thing over and over and it doesn't even support your case

Yes only slowed and if we take this in consideration aswell how can thor have the same speed scaling if he was still moving while Captain America was completly frozen it would make zero sense to have Thor at 90 m/s aswell.

Even taking into account the very minimal speed difference, it doesn't make them any faster than Subsonic

What i mean was accepted when i replied here the thread had already been aproved by basicly several moderators or higher and even then i got told that i would be ignored if i didn't make a comment which was something i was unable to to (it was 2 am in the morning).

Yes this was rusheed as it was a downgrade that downgraded everyone in a verse and was accepted and applied in 3 days which is a short time.

The thread was going for more than three days, so no, it wasn't rushed. You just didn't keep track of time. If it was rushed, Dale wouldn't have kept the thread open so he could handle more calcs

Goes to show how little you actually know about the process of that thread

There is a difference between hearing someone who is alone against like 10+ people vs a thread already supported by a staff member and those stuff was small things which certenly isn't the same thing.

But you're passionate about your stance, right? Why not bring it up? Even if 10+ people were doing something similar in another thread, I would still bring up my point if I disagreed with the revision

This isn't anyone else's fault. You had the chance to say something in the thread

I can contribute but i as anyone else have a personal life and i did not want to comment on the thread because i knew that i did not have the time to respond before it was closed and applied (i was right about that). That was the reason i shared my opinion here because this thread wasen't closing.

I'm sure you've got your own priorities/responsibilities IRL and that's totally fine

Still, in the time you spent complaining during the thread's progress here, you could've brought up those comments there instead

You had plenty of time to comment there based on how much you yapped about your stance here

 

[Isaacbobanka]

No. He's addressing the fact that you haven't read the thread. That doesn't make you stupid, it means you just didn't read it through. It's clear you haven't read it as you keep bringing up things addressed in the thread

Its adressed but my argument is the reason he addreses is wrong and that i am aruing agains that reason if he disagrees you explain why my argument is wrong insted of pointing at a thread.

Doesn't matter since the street tiers are shown to be in the same ballpark of speed as guys like Thor anyways

This is the point im trying to say is wrong he does show speed above street tier characters and as ive said now a couple of times the Quicksilver scene shows this very clear that Thor could move while others appear frozen and even make a counter attack.

Okay. But he never moves at MHS+ speeds so this doesn't matter

He does comparable speed to hela who currently has said outlier feats at MHS+ speeds and other not calculated feats.

You are just repeating the same thing over and over and it doesn't even support your case

Im not repeating everything some things ive said are new or new arguments.

Even taking into account the very minimal speed difference, it doesn't make them any faster than Subsonic

Again im not arguing "Them" im saying Thor should be above it and yes it would he moved as shown in the clip atleast half a meter while Captain America a character who can move at 90 m/s speed was frozen if calculated it would yield atleast several machs.

The thread was going for more than three days, so no, it wasn't rushed. You just didn't keep track of time. If it was rushed, Dale wouldn't have kept the thread open so he could handle more calcs

Goes to show how little you actually know about the process of that thread

Im not arguing that it was "open" the thread was accepted far before the 48 hours that it needed to be applied which is why i saw ZERO reason to comment there in the first place.

But you're passionate about your stance, right? Why not bring it up? Even if 10+ people were doing something similar in another thread, I would still bring up my point if I disagreed with the revision

This isn't anyone else's fault. You had the chance to say something in the thread

Because i didn't see it necessary. Yes as someone else said it can help others to change their view which is why i actually made a comment. I had no actual intent of debating because i knew that i would have to respond to 3 different people with 1 of them who had previuslly stated that my argument was the most stupid argument he had seen on this wiki. If someone made these comment to you would you really want to debate that person?

I'm sure you've got your own priorities/responsibilities IRL and that's totally fine

Still, in the time you spent complaining during the thread's progress here, you could've brought up those comments there instead

You had plenty of time to comment there based on how much you yapped about your stance here

Which i did after someone said it could benefit them but when there is like 10 moderators who already agrees the motivation to actually comment on a thread is lower and since i knew i wouldn't really have the time to debate i just made a few comments here insted.

 

[Raincutter]

If this was like, any other verse with actual consistent higher end feats, then yeah the train thing wouldn't mean anything. But the Raimiverse's anti-feats, paired with scenes like Sandman getting tagged by an attack entirely sped by a train's momentum, within a series that's already blatantly a visual medium, point to stuff like that slowed down punch scene actually being more consistent with lower speeds. Obviously we weren't JUST looking at the slow motion punch and saying "well, that can't work". We brought it up because unfortunately, it lines up with the Raimiverse being MUUUUCH slower than anything even close to MHS+

I don't think you should rely on this methodology at all, even if it's just for padding with legitimate anti feats. As for the other anti feats, a lot of them suffer the same problem.

Harry getting "blitzed" by the explosion is when he's at a point where he's too weak to even stand. Of course he can't dodge it. You'd also have to consider that more powerful explosives generally produce faster blastwaves/detonation velocities. Same thing with Spider-Man getting "blitzed" by an explosion in SM1. If we're counting the slow mo as Spider-Man's POV/his perception, I might even use this as a feat since a massively weakened Spider-Man still perceives the explosion (which he is too fatigued to dodge) as moving in slow motion.

"By shooting web lines onto a moving train, Black Suit Spider-Man lets the speed and force of the train pull himself towards Sandman to deliver an attack. Sandman fails to react to this attack despite having plenty of time to react and while staring at Spider-Man before he jumps off the wall, which again, is being entirely sped by the train." You can see Spider-Man's leg moves as he jumped off the wall. This also seems like Sandman was just kind of in "deer in the headlights" mode and didn't think to dodge the attack, which isn't uncommon for inexperienced fighters.

"Police officers threatening to use firearms against Octavius prompts him to take a hostage to avoid being shot at." You have to have a painfully narrow interpretation to use this as an anti-feat. I'd consider it just a logical, tactical move for an evil character as, even if he is fast enough to dodge bullets, would still want to minimize risk. It also allowed him to nearly kill Spider-Man later in the fight.

I'm not gonna go through everything, but you can see how the flawed methodology to evaluate these "anti feats," and the reason I and other people bring up other verses is because people on and off the wiki don't evaluate speed this strictly and the many pages of verses evaluated with more lenient speed scaling reflects that. If a major verse is gonna be downgraded like this, there should probably be a guideline page specifying what exactly is allowed to evaluate speed.

 

[Lonkitt]

I don't think you should rely on this methodology at all, even if it's just for padding with legitimate anti feats. As for the other anti feats, a lot of them suffer the same problem.

Harry getting "blitzed" by the explosion is when he's at a point where he's too weak to even stand. Of course he can't dodge it. You'd also have to consider that more powerful explosives generally produce faster blastwaves/detonation velocities. Same thing with Spider-Man getting "blitzed" by an explosion in SM1. If we're counting the slow mo as Spider-Man's POV/his perception, I might even use this as a feat since a massively weakened Spider-Man still perceives the explosion (which he is too fatigued to dodge) as moving in slow motion.

"By shooting web lines onto a moving train, Black Suit Spider-Man lets the speed and force of the train pull himself towards Sandman to deliver an attack. Sandman fails to react to this attack despite having plenty of time to react and while staring at Spider-Man before he jumps off the wall, which again, is being entirely sped by the train." You can see Spider-Man's leg moves as he jumped off the wall. This also seems like Sandman was just kind of in "deer in the headlights" mode and didn't think to dodge the attack, which isn't uncommon for inexperienced fighters.

"Police officers threatening to use firearms against Octavius prompts him to take a hostage to avoid being shot at." You have to have a painfully narrow interpretation to use this as an anti-feat. I'd consider it just a logical, tactical move for an evil character as, even if he is fast enough to dodge bullets, would still want to minimize risk. It also allowed him to nearly kill Spider-Man later in the fight.

I'm not gonna go through everything, but you can see how the flawed methodology to evaluate these "anti feats," and the reason I and other people bring up other verses is because people on and off the wiki don't evaluate speed this strictly and the many pages of verses evaluated with more lenient speed scaling reflects that. If a major verse is gonna be downgraded like this, there should probably be a guideline page specifying what exactly is allowed to evaluate speed.

Cope harder please

I think you're the only one using a narrow perception here becase you're handpicking these anti-feats, calling them flawed, and then saying "won't go through the rest". That sure is convenient, huh?

You're also just....ignoring what I brought up earlier how some of these anti-feats wouldn't be brought had it not been for the Raimiverse's plethora of existing anti-feats that make these scenes consistent with lower levels of speed. Same principle applies to the MCU

I'm currently in the process of giving the Raimiverse a speed revision btw. It's a goated verse but it only peaks at Subsonic with a Supersonic+ perception speed feat that doesn't scale to anyone besides Spidey and Venom

Seriously, find me a single instance of bullet dodging or some secret MHS+ sauce in that verse. You won't find anything

 

[Dinobot1996]

Random musings:

• I'd consider thinking up a CRT to get super soldiers to "At least 8-C, possibly High 8-C", but I'm not sure if having that on so many profiles would just look messy (especially considering peak humans would still have to scale to a tenth of that).
• I wonder if Ms. Marvel should have two keys, considering I'm pretty sure about a year is meant to pass between her show and The Marvels, and I don't think she demonstrates anything near tier 7 in the show, with her shields even getting oneshot by a direct shot from a High 8-C+ sonic cannon.
• I feel like there might be an argument to get Gravik and G'iah to scale above Trident missiles, but only after they gain all the powers of the Harvest in the finale of Secret Invasion.

 

[Kaydee1648]

I wish we scaled peak humans to their own shit
considering there are not many supporting physical feat for them being 9-A or 8-C

 

[Dinobot1996]

I thought there were at least three 9-A feats that peak humans scale to. If I ever were to actually attempt a CRT for a High 8-C end for super soldiers, I probably wouldn't be arguing for anything above the baseline of the tier, in which case peak humans would get a 9-A+ end at best.

 

[Isaacbobanka]

Crazy how this straight up doesn't happen

So it does happend which is why i want to share moments where Thor has higher speeds. At this moment i lack time to debate but i still want to show some feats i do think can be used if higher speed scale should in question.

Here Thor turns into lightning and reacts/fights while being a lightning

While this is controversal i want to bring this one anyway. Here he throws Mjolnir so fast quicksilver was unable to react until it was past him

Here he deflects a Chituri weapon blast

The beams from Thor love and thunder were confirmed laser beams

Here is Thor dodging them

This confirms it aswell

We also get a statement that its about speed and visual imapct.

In Thor ragnarok he is confirmed to move as fast as a lightning

Hela is confirmed to move at that speed aswell

This is confirmed when she aswell reacts to his lightning

The beam from the Destroyer is described as a laser beam aswell

Thor could also react to Jane Foster who was in lightning

We also get to see that thor can view Mjolnir in slow motion

Gorr can react to Thors lightning

What am i trying to say with this?

Alot of these feats are either from Ragnarok or Love and Thunder showing thors gain in speed after awakning. This is confirmed and supported by many statments and feats. We also saw that thor got in shape and was training before love and thunder which could reason for higher speed. This would be the best explanation:

Thor pre-awakend era (scales to Captain America/other avengers) Then awakend ( massivly hypersonic scaling to lightning feats) Then again a gain in power in love and thunder ( scales to either lightning feats or the laser beam feats.)

Again this is just a suggestion but i think the feats speak for themself.

 

[Dalesean027]

Here Thor turns into lightning and reacts/fights while being a lightning

He doesn't turn into lightning, thats just the same electric aura stormbreaker emits when he's flying

Here he deflects a Chituri weapon blast

Which isn't even a supersonic feat?

The beams from Thor love and thunder were confirmed laser beams

Not all lasers are SoL

We also get a statement that its about speed and visual imapct.

Which doesn't mean anything if all that's shown on screen is subsonic movement lol

In Thor ragnarok he is confirmed to move as fast as a lightning

False actually, they say he's like a bolt of lightning that he's actually literally as fast as one.

Hela is confirmed to move at that speed aswell

Again not a literal statement of moving at the same speed as lightning in a literal sense or really at all really, it just says Hela and Thor are comparable which has no speed connotations outside of just saying they scale to each other

The beam from the Destroyer is described as a laser beam aswell

Great not a SoL laser

This is confirmed when she aswell reacts to his lightning

This would be an anti-feat for btw, she could only look up in the time it took lighting to travel hundreds of meters if not a few km before it strikes her lol which means that's subsonic at best

We also get to see that thor can view Mjolnir in slow motion

Mjonir's speed varies and the chunks weren't even going at supersonic speeds here evident by the lack of a mach cone

Gorr can react to Thors lightning

Probably the only valid thing but those blast aren't even shown to be as fast as his standard cloud to ground lightning even then its an outlier if we did consider it MHS


All and all you basically have nothing

 

[Isaacbobanka]

This would be an anti-feat for btw, she could only look up in the time it took lighting to travel hundreds of meters if not a few km before it strikes her lol which means that's subsonic at best

She could not dodge because the size of the lightning beam was the size of the building. We also see in the clip that she reacts before it even hits.

Mjonir's speed varies and the chunks weren't even going at supersonic speeds here evident by the lack of a mach cone

Small things like fragments have barley visable mach cones so i don't see the problem here and him seing it slow would be a massive bump in speed considering the current speed.

All and all you basically have nothing

You forgot the part were he reacts to Jane when she moves at lightning speeds and i have more than this i just took some examples.

He doesn't turn into lightning, thats just the same electric aura stormbreaker emits when he's flying

Then this scene proves he can react while flying and that he should scale to his travel speed.

 

[Dalesean027]

She could not dodge because the size of the lightning beam was the size of the building. We also see in the clip that she reacts before it even hits

The beam was maybe 3~4 meters in diameter tops so saying she couldn't move that much in the time it took the lighting to strike is a major anti-feat, hell all she could do was look up and get blitzed

Small things like fragments have barley visable mach cones so i don't see the problem here and him seing it slow would be a massive bump in speed considering the current speed

If you're claiming its anything above supersonic they definitely do have them visible enough especially if you're claiming they are moving at the speeds you are but lets still say its just a visual choice then, we can literally calc the real speed of hammer right before slow motion and news flash its less than 10~15m/s so that fits his subsonic tier already. I mean you can literally visually see on screen its not THAT fast

Then this scene proves he can react while flying and that he should scale to his travel speed.

He's not flying at top speeds here evident by the lack of a mach cone which the MCU is consistent with in its portrayal for those who can breach those speeds, also just fighting while flying doesn't mean you're flying at your top speeds and he's very clearly only going at subsonic speeds so

Also he's not even like reacting to anyone he's just burrowing through and ramming into the building

You forgot the part were he reacts to Jane when she moves at lightning speeds and i have more than this i just took some examples.

I'd hardly call this a feat ngl she's basically already completed her flight and is atp just appearing right there now

 

[Lonkitt]

Like I said. Crazy how lightning reacting straight up doesn't happen

 

[DaReaperMan]

Like I said. Crazy how lightning reacting straight up doesn't happen

Well it happens once!

Out of like ten times it either blitzes or outspeeds someone majorly

 

[Isaacbobanka]

I'd hardly call this a feat ngl she's basically already completed her flight and is atp just appearing right there now

There is no indication that she slowed down tho? And him reacting to her appearing there is the feat.He's not flying at top speeds here evident by the lack of a mach cone which the MCU is consistent with in its portrayal for those who can breach those speeds, also just fighting while flying doesn't mean you're flying at your top speeds and he's very clearly only going at subsonic speeds so

He's not flying at top speeds here evident by the lack of a mach cone which the MCU is consistent with in its portrayal for those who can breach those speeds, also just fighting while flying doesn't mean you're flying at your top speeds and he's very clearly only going at subsonic speeds so

I also forgot you didn't react to the lasers from the tower that he dodged very easliy which if calculated would be alot higher than current speed.

The beam was maybe 3~4 meters in diameter tops so saying she couldn't move that much in the time it took the lighting to strike is a major anti-feat, hell all she could do was look up and get blitzed

Probably because she wasen't ready for a massive lightning bolt to hit her and she still reacted Before it hit her.

I do think there are more feats to be calculated which is why i made this but if i find more feats then calulated them could my suggestion be resonable based on what i said in my original comment?