Chaotic Honkai Verse Upgrade (1-A & L1-A)

[SuperNova55555]

To be more precise my question is that if SOQ has any direct statement of its dimensionality. Not the dimensionality we deduced from the dimensionality of the bubble worlds it holds.

As I said already, it’s stated that the entire universe is 11D, not just a bubble world. But yea Weaver also posted a scan below explicitly stating it a second time for SoQ.

 

[Robo432343]

honkai upgrade turning into a downgrade AGAIN
Agree with Low 1-C Yog

 

[Bahaha]

If you mean outside of real space, yes it exists outside of real space. There's a whole damn explanation about it.
But the tree is not a concrete structure but rather a theoretical model to explain the ways of the universe. So, in the terminology, the space is inside the tree. Is that clear?

Uhmm in HI3 and GGZ (which you are basing this thread on) isn't the IT a literal construct that IS the universe and not a theoretical model like you are claiming? In Thus Spoke Apocalypse the Imaginary Tree has a literal concrete form.

 

[Bahaha]

By the way if the Primordial Chaos is the Sea of Quanta then I agree with downgrading Loli-Yog to low1-C fra.

 

[Weaver261]

Uhmm in HI3 and GGZ (which you are basing this thread on) isn't the IT a literal construct that IS the universe and not a theoretical model like you are claiming? In Thus Spoke Apocalypse the Imaginary Tree has a literal concrete form.

That visualization is likely a representation of the tree (universe).

Durandal: About two months ago, I fell for Otto’s hoax and was banished to a place within Imaginary Space.
Durandal: It was a crimson red desert, a unique dimension inside Imaginary Space.

The same dimension is shown in animated short. So otto was in the imaginary space.

In term of cosmological structure, imaginary space is higher and contains the MWI model of the tree. But in term of terminology, imaginary space and imaginary tree are sometimes portrayed as a higher realm. Ik it can be confusing

By the way if the Primordial Chaos is the Sea of Quanta then I agree with downgrading Loli-Yog to low1-C fra.

Also if you don't understand what's being proposed here, please don't leave useless comments like this

 

[Reiner04]

Alr, my opinion on Yog remains the same for the reasons I stated previously.

About the SOQ:

Yeah, I don’t think Low 1-A for the SOQ works here, nor do I think any layering argument works. Just because its deeper layer is an empty vacuum doesn't really make it fundamentally different from the rest of the SOQ.

The Abyss of the SOQ (or just the SOQ, whatever anyone wants to call it) and Primordial Chaos do not seem to be the same to me based on the texts. Primordial Chaos appears to be much more fundamental than the SOQ or any other structure described in the OP, so I am against them being equated as well.

However, if a consensus is reached that they are the same, somehow, then according to this scan, which states that Primordial Chaos is a vast expanse of water in every direction, should be considered when determining the size of its totality.

Thats all.

 

[Weaver261]

The Abyss of the SOQ (or just the SOQ, whatever anyone wants to call it) and Primordial Chaos do not seem to be the same to me based on the texts. Primordial Chaos appears to be much more fundamental than the SOQ or any other structure described in the OP, so I am against them being equated as well.

That part is my bad. I got confused with reaching to the bottom abyss of SoQ being equal to reaching Primordial Chaos realm. Abyss is not related anymore and Primordial Chaos is its own thing above the sea cuz one can only reach there via enlightenment.

Also what do you think about L1-A imaginary space. Cuz L1-A primordial Chaos came from L1-A imaginary space.

 

[Vietthai96]

Literally water and sea part referring to SoQ, idk why Primordial Chaos was something more fundamental than SoQ when both are the same thing

 

[SuperNova55555]

Also what do you think about L1-A imaginary space. Cuz L1-A primordial Chaos came from L1-A imaginary space.

I already explained how IS is limited to SoQ’s scaling because the very scans you posted explicitly juxtaposed them as such

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Uhmm in HI3 and GGZ (which you are basing this thread on) isn't the IT a literal construct that IS the universe and not a theoretical model like you are claiming? In Thus Spoke Apocalypse the Imaginary Tree has a literal concrete form.

The literal form in Thus Spoke Apocalypse is just a visual representation - We also see that they represent the tree with ends to its branches despite the fact we know the tree is infinite. It's just a representation.

The idea that the Tree is actually a construct mainly comes from HSR with ideas like Aha literally climbing the Tree and looking down from its crown, in HI3 it's always been presented as a non-concrete theory and that the 'Tree' is something vaster and indescribable, hence why the analogy of the Imaginary Tree is used.

The Imaginary Tree is just a higher dimensional construct which things have to exist upon to not fall into the SoQ. The Tree is simply an analogy humans can interact with and make sense of.
Even in the HSR Data Bank the Tree is presented as a theory.

With this in your head, you can look at Aha climbing the Tree as an allegory for him now existing above HSR's reality and looking down upon it, which is the main point of the text surrounding Aha's ascension.

 

[Reiner04]

Literally water and sea part referring to SoQ, idk why Primordial Chaos was something more fundamental than SoQ when both are the same thing

The analogy appears to be similar, yeah. Both of them have been referred to as an ocean or sea, but I don't think that is enough to call them the exact same structure. The Primordial Sea, in my reading, appears to precede the existence of even patterns or shapes, it has been explained as being shapeless and dimensionless, though it can take on any form, dimension, or pattern that is put into it or arises from it overtime. In contrast, the SOQ very clearly has dimensionality. Them both being called an 'Ocean' shouldn't be a defeater, since creation can arise in layers yet, in similar manner (Cosmic Sea, regular sea, tree, bud, Gaia, Universe)

 

[Weaver261]

Literally water and sea part referring to SoQ, idk why Primordial Chaos was something more fundamental than SoQ when both are the same thing

I really phrased it wrong in OP. I admit it.
I meant to show a connection between Primordial Chaos and SoQ, not that they are the same thing. Think of it as a empty void where the sea can exist. The tree also grow there, once symmetry breaking happened which made a connection between the sea and the tree, the empty SoQ becomes a bulk for parallel bubble worlds we know now.

Here in the Sea of Quanta, there are no rules, no boundaries, and no limitations.
It has existed since the creation of the universe, but most of the time, it was just as barren as when the universe was created.
After a long time, it established a coincidental connection with the planets of the real world.
This connection, or rather, Symmetry Breaking, created the concept of time in the originally empty Sea of Quanta.

 

[SuperNova55555]

I really phrased it wrong in OP. I admit it.
I meant to show a connection between Primordial Chaos and SoQ, not that they are the same thing. Think of it as a empty void where the sea can exist. The tree also grow there, once symmetry breaking happened which made a connection between the sea and the tree, the empty SoQ becomes a bulk for parallel bubble worlds we know now.

No it’s js saying that SoQ only became active once planets started growing out of IT, since it itself only has the capability to drown worlds/leaves and not grow them like IT

 

[Weaver261]

No it’s js saying that SoQ only became active once planets started growing out of IT, since it itself only has the capability to drown worlds/leaves and not grow them like IT

Not all bubble worlds in SoQ are from the tree that fall off. The term "Bubble" exactly highlight the working of SoQ on how the bubble worlds are mirrored to the real world. Some bubble worlds are man made from memories and such.

Firstly, as you know, the Sea of Quanta is not a real sea. It does not belong on a particular planet, nor is it made of liquid substances like water.
To make it easier to understand, you can liken it to a foundation similar to the Imaginary Tree, a medium that can carry all sorts of parallel universes.
If you'd like... think of it as bathtub filled with bubbles. When someone enters the tub, some of the bubbles will reflect the image of that person.
And because these bubbles reflect an image that exists in the real world, we can call them bubble universes.
The size of each bubble universe varies. The bigger the bubble universe the closer it is to a real universe, and it is also less susceptible to external changes.
On the contrary, those miniature bubble universes can be seen as mirrors in the real world. In fact, I'm using them as a means to communicate with all of you right now.

… Well, you can actually think of it as a bathtub if you’d like. Because of the “Ether” that constitutes the “Sea of Quanta”, in it’s “ebbing and flowing”, it’ll naturally form a variety of “branes”, and these “branes” have the opportunity to evolve into “Bubble Worlds”.

Branes can also evolve into bubble worlds.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Not all bubble worlds in SoQ are from the tree that fall off. The term "Bubble" exactly highlight the working of SoQ on how the bubble worlds are mirrored to the real world. Some bubble worlds are man made from memories and such.


Branes can also evolve into bubble worlds.

So the bubble worlds are empty before interacting with the Tree. Ok, that doesn’t change anything in regards to my point, nor does it prove your extreme reach.

Also also these descriptions contradict each other, since the only thing born outside of GGZ’s Chaos are universes, not SoQ’s bulk. And if we go with the interpretation that the Universe = SoQ + IT then it still means that Chaos and SoQ are unrelated.

 

[Weaver261]

So the bubble worlds are empty before interacting with the Tree. Ok, that doesn’t change anything in regards to my point, nor does it prove your extreme reach.

Not that bubble worlds are empty but SoQ itself. Also what I am even reaching here with this? I am merely stating what I wrote wrong.

Also also these descriptions contradict each, since the only thing born outside of GGZ’s Chaos are universes, not SoQ’s bulk. And if we go with the interpretation that the Universe = SoQ + IT then it still means that Chaos and SoQ are unrelated.

"universe" is not the correct term. correct term is "world" which can be anything literally. I am not saying Chaos and SoQ are same thing. I am saying The tree and the sea are inside the primordial chaos which they grew through thus allowing L1-A imaginary space not to be bounded by SoQ 11D dimensionality. I can't really make that more than this.

 

[SuperNova55555]

allowing L1-A imaginary space not to be bounded by SoQ 11D dimensionality

Your scans juxtapose IS to SoQ, not anything else, to SEA OF QUANTA specifically:

Nagamitsu: Your current location is still under the influence of the Sea of Quanta. If you go any further, you’ll be completely within the realm of the Imaginary Tree.

 

[Weaver261]

Your scans juxtapose IS to SoQ, not anything else, to SEA OF QUANTA specifically:

Just because a character go from place A to place B, doesn't mean they are juxtaposed to each other. It's not like crossing the street.
Durandal went to imaginary space with a portal made by 2nd Divine Key cuz 2nd Divine Key allows not only the observation of the tree but the creation of the route to it.

Otto: So, Durandal, you will need to enter the dimensional portal generated by the 2nd Divine Key yourself.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Just because a character go from place A to place B, doesn't mean they are juxtaposed to each other. It's not like crossing the street.
Durandal went to imaginary space with a portal made by 2nd Divine Key cuz 2nd Divine Key allows not only the observation of the tree but the creation of the route to it.

Nope, it’s very clearly saying that they have similar influences lmao. And supposedly this 11D space is apparently outside the laws and effects of a L1A space whilst also somehow affecting the spatiotemporal part of it?? Lmaoo.

Can it not js be that maybe the Ether Bathtub is juxtaposed to Imaginary Space and that the Leaves and Branches are juxtaposed to Bubbles? Seems like the most basic assertion to make (and what is actually suggested).

I’m genuinely baffled by this CRT. Never in my life have I seen such copious amounts of headcanon and reach.

 

[Weaver261]

Nope, it’s very clearly saying that they have similar influences lmao. And supposedly this 11D space is apparently outside the laws and effects of a L1A space whilst also somehow affecting the spatiotemporal part of it?? Lmaoo.

Can it not js be that maybe the Ether Bathtub is juxtaposed to Imaginary Space and that the Leaves and Branches are juxtaposed to Bubbles? Seems like the most basic assertion to make (and what is actually suggested).

I’m genuinely baffled by this CRT. Never in my life have I seen such copious amounts of headcanon and reach.

The only headcanon and reach are your claims honestly. I am genuinely baffled by how you got confused to something that's actually so simple that even a 5 year old can understand.

Explain me how SoQ and Imaginary Space have similar influences???
Also what are you even trying to say and prove with this? Like I genuinely don't get what you are saying, so it'd be nice to explain it to me in layman term actually.

And supposedly this 11D space is apparently outside the laws and effects of a L1A space whilst also somehow affecting the spatiotemporal part of it?? Lmaoo.

 

[SuperNova55555]

It’s genuinely not even worth responding anymore

 

[Weaver261]

It’s genuinely not even worth responding anymore

Well, I asked you nicely with the intent of wanting to know your perspective but since you stonewall me like this, I can't help it. I guess....You can just leave the evaluation to the staffs if you don't want to engage anymore but if you are willing to share your point of view, I am willing to hear you out and see if you are right.

 

[Mbpoops]

Following
L1C/1C I agree with but
Where's the R>F that was promised 3k years ago
Also..
Why is MWI still being poorly misrepresented..

What Otto did wouldn't go against MWI , instead it exemplifies it.
Also: Changing a possibility within a universe does not go against the Many-Worlds Interpretation (MWI), but rather defines it. MWI suggests all possible outcomes of a quantum event actually occur, each splitting into its own, separate, non-interacting branch of reality. Therefore, "changing a possibility" is simply the manifestation of another branch, not a violation of the theory.

So to reiterate:Thus spoke apocalypse
Enforces the use of MWI and we know the tree runs off it..
A possibility can either happen Naturally!* Or **Forced/Exploited it doesn't matter how it happened. As every possibility has an outcome and to further reconstruct the idea of MWI being blatant with 0 doubts
Cause I have gone through this thread and seen it get misinterpreted
Also:This from alien space


And no weaver
Nothing in the entirety of this thread is giving you R>F
And you aren't getting anything Above dimensions
Unless you have some clear and explicit proof that says that beings are above every dimension and are Qualitively superior to the lower dimensions
Then otherwise I'll bite but until then I won't.

The max you're getting is L1C to maybe 1C maybe H1C but that's a big maybe

Bumping this response because apparently weaver doubts the existance of the IT??

 

[Vietthai96]

The Primordial Sea, in my reading, appears to precede the existence of even patterns or shapes

It precede patterns or shapes is because it is in state of chaos, chaos i obviously will not have patterns or shapes.

has been explained as being shapeless and dimensionless, though it can take on any form, dimension, or pattern that is put into it or arises from it overtime.

Scan say nothing like what you just wrote, just because it is stated to be nothingness doesn't mean it is also dimensionaless. Literally Chaos in the verse is just referring to the chaotic state of thing and the Sea of Quanta is literally chaotic place which is why it is also referred to as Primordial Chaos, you are literally exaggrating it into something more complex than it actually is. Nothing prevent a chaotic realm having dimensionality

 

[Voidnether]

It precede patterns or shapes is because it is in state of chaos, chaos i obviously will not have patterns or shapes.


Scan say nothing like what you just wrote, just because it is stated to be nothingness doesn't mean it is also dimensionaless. Literally Chaos in the verse is just referring to the chaotic state of thing and the Sea of Quanta is literally chaotic place which is why it is also referred to as Primordial Chaos, you are literally exaggrating it into something more complex than it actually is. Nothing prevent a chaotic realm having dimensionality

Well, the burden of proof that Primordial Chaos has dimensionality here would be onto you, because the Imaginary Singularity which resides in the Imaginary Space, and the Imaginary Tree has direct statements of them being dimensionless and these are the 2/3 fundamental realms in Honkaiverse other than SoQ

 

[Mbpoops]

Well, the burden of proof that Primordial Chaos has dimensionality here would be onto you, because the Imaginary Singularity which resides in the Imaginary Space, and the Imaginary Tree has direct statements of them being dimensionless and these are the 2/3 fundamental realms in Honkaiverse other than SoQ

Ngl everything you said after that first comma is just word salad. Why are you talking about imaginary space when explaining the primordial chaos?

 

[Reiner04]

Reminder to keep it civil, everyone.

It precede patterns or shapes is because it is in state of chaos, chaos i obviously will not have patterns or shapes.


Scan say nothing like what you just wrote, just because it is stated to be nothingness doesn't mean it is also dimensionaless. Literally Chaos in the verse is just referring to the chaotic state of thing and the Sea of Quanta is literally chaotic place which is why it is also referred to as Primordial Chaos, you are literally exaggrating it into something more complex than it actually is. Nothing prevent a chaotic realm having dimensionality

'Chaos means lacking shapes or patterns' doesn't really make much sense to me. Given how Primordial Chaos is discussed in the context of creation and everything, I think 'nothingness' provides the proper context here, combined with the previous assertion of it lacking patterns/shapes, it is clearly a state of proper nothingness without any dimensions. Regardless, since we lack any common ground here, I think I have to agree to disagree.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Ngl everything you said after that first comma is just word salad.

That’s most hoyo scaling

Well, I asked you nicely with the intent of wanting to know your perspective but since you stonewall me like this, I can't help it. I guess....You can just leave the evaluation to the staffs if you don't want to engage anymore but if you are willing to share your point of view, I am willing to hear you out and see if you are right.

It’s literally just positing the extent of SoQ (its influence) to be in polarity with the extent of IT (its realm). It’s why they don’t extend into each other because the inhibit one part of Universe in the same way IX juxtaposed two polar sides of the Universe.

It’s completely pointless to debate here because even concepts as basic as these are wanked and warped beyond belief for the sake of some bs powerscaling. That’s why I agree we wait on mods.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Reminder to keep it civil, everyone.


'Chaos means lacking shapes or patterns' doesn't really make much sense to me. Given how Primordial Chaos is discussed in the context of creation and everything, I think 'nothingness' provides the proper context here, combined with the previous assertion of it lacking patterns/shapes, it is clearly a state of proper nothingness without any dimensions. Regardless, since we lack any common ground here, I think I have to agree to disagree.

SoQ in Hi3 and the like is described in a sort of quantum mysticism way, in the same manner as how certain contemporary Taoism interpretations relay the Tao as being some of quantum vacuum instead of a supra-essential entity.

Whereas for GGZ it talks of Chaos in the sense that it is all things prior to determinacy, in a similar manner to how Primordial Nothingnesses in mysticism are Being in it’s primary sense. But for some reason (as Ive explained a trillion times now) it delimits it to the framing of spatiotemporality which is cheeks.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

SoQ in Hi3 and the like is described in a sort of quantum mysticism way, in the same manner as how certain contemporary Taoism interpretations relay the Tao as being some of quantum vacuum instead of a supra-essential entity.

Saying a lot of nothing about the SoQ with your word salad - What’s your point here? That the Sea and Chaos are not the same? Fair enough, but other people in this thread have made that argument far better than this.
Plus this relies a lot on your interpretation of how the Sea is described... and you haven't played the game for all the descriptions of the Sea and interactions with it.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Saying a lot of nothing about the SoQ with your word salad - What’s your point here? That the Sea and Chaos are not the same? Fair enough, but other people in this thread have made that argument far better than this.
Plus this relies a lot on your interpretation of how the Sea is described... and you haven't played the game for all the descriptions of the Sea and interactions with it.

I’m saying the way they are described is different. Since SoQ intrinsically doesn’t seem to me as “everything” like GGZ Chaos is. In fact, it just seems to me to be mostly empty and that’s all.

Not that it actually matters allat with the scaling. I don’t see how L1A is attained with either interpretation.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Not that it actually matters allat with the scaling. I don’t see how L1A is attained with either interpretation.

I don't either because it's contingent on Su's statements being accurate which everyone has universally agreed are too vague / inaccurate, even if you believe the Sea and Chaos are the same / hold parallels or whatever.

 

[SuperNova55555]

I don't either because it's contingent on Su's statements being accurate which everyone has universally agreed are too vague / inaccurate, even if you believe the Sea and Chaos are the same / hold parallels or whatever.

Yea.

Also, I think ppl keep forgetting the fact that my initial contentions with Chaos being bound within Space-Time work universally with literally all 3 interpretations. They are the same contentions I even brought up in the OG Loli Yog downgrade.

 

[Weaver261]

It’s literally just positing the extent of SoQ (its influence) to be in polarity with the extent of IT (its realm). It’s why they don’t extend into each other because the inhibit one part of Universe in the same way IX juxtaposed two polar sides of the Universe.

Why the imaginary space can't be the higher realm compared to SoQ in your point of view? Also one thing I found interesting is this

隧道将会突破量子之海层面,跃迁至更深邃未知的空间。
The tunnel will break through the layer of the Quantum Sea and jump to a deeper, unknown space.

If imaginary space and SoQ are juxtaposed to each other, why imaginary space would be a deeper space than SoQ?

 

[SuperNova55555]

If imaginary space and SoQ are juxtaposed to each other, why imaginary space would be a deeper space than SoQ?

So it’s deeper than SoQ but SoQ is also somehow discontinued from it and doesn’t encompass it… right.

Can it not be possible that this is interpreted in literally any other way that is more coherent? Surelyyyy not.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

From what I understand, R>F isn't strictly required to reach 1-A

It isn’t, but in this case the entire argument hinges on that.

So Yog cannot be Low 1-A/1-A.

 

[Mbpoops]

Why the imaginary space can't be the higher realm compared to SoQ in your point of view? Also one thing I found interesting is this

Is that not what he was saying before you said imaginary space was the imaginary tree?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Is that not what he was saying before you said imaginary space was the imaginary tree?

🫩

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

It precede patterns or shapes is because it is in state of chaos, chaos i obviously will not have patterns or shapes.

What's your take regarding the scale of Yog?

 

[SuperNova55555]

What's your take regarding the scale of Yog?

Her ontological status can vary honestly it don’t matter, but her AP should cap at Low 1-C. So even 1-A existence but Low 1-C power is possible lmao