Chaotic Honkai Verse Upgrade (1-A & L1-A)

[Furina003]

interesting, just want to follow

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I’m going to give a short reply for now because I’m on my lunch break at work.

I want to say that Nova basically expressed my disagreements with the idea that the Sea of Quanta has a higher layer comparable to GGZ’s Chaos, so I’m going to leave that aside.

As for the primordial Chaos, the scans look fine and should definitely be added to Yog’s profile (I can do it myself if help is needed), but honestly I don’t understand why the power of Definition would be 1-A (this was already discussed in the tier 0 downgrade thread).

We need to stop automatically treating every “Chaos” or “primordial void” as Low 1-A just because it lacks space and time. That’s what Type 1 BDE exists for. The void before the Big Bang in real life isn’t Low 1-A even though it lacks space and time. You need much more evidence for such an extreme tier jump. It’s not just “not being limited by dimensions.” You have to show that the size of that realm is comparable in ontology or magnitude to a proper class of its own, one that is abstract in itself and so vast that it’s absolutely impossible to reach it no matter how much something increases in size through conventional means.

Like Nova said, the primordial Chaos should simply scale to the Imaginary Tree, so it should be Low 1-C / 1-C at most, with Yog and the other deities in the post being above that level.

 

[EINAKUROMU]

wait what is this from hi3 or ggz? seele and kiana never fought in hi3 they are allies for the entire game. this gets contradicted by hi3 they separate the sea from reality (real space) theres also this qna

It's from hi3
Also, it's not about seele and Kiana
It's about Kiana(Sirin/HoV) fought Himeko(subspace)
Yk, the saddest chapter
That translation is cooked

 

[Mbpoops]

It's from hi3
Also, it's not about seele and Kiana
It's about Kiana(Sirin/HoV) fought Himeko(subspace)
Yk, the saddest chapter
That translation is cooked

Sodium chlorine vs sub space

The scan also says the sea varies in dimensions from real space (literally since its a higher dimensional space) so it shouldnt be limited to the 7 compactified dimensions of real space

 

[SuperNova55555]

The scan also says the sea varies in dimensions from real space (literally since its a higher dimensional space) so it shouldnt be limited to the 7 compactified dimensions of real space

It only says “some deviations”. Nothing else suggests there’s any intrinsic difference to its compactification. It would be headcanon to suggest some other stuff.

It can just be referencing how bubble worlds attain their dimensions or something.

 

[Weaver261]

Proof? You are making a fanfiction of the Sea of Quanta having another layer of Chaos where nothing even stated there is something like that

People who lost their material existence in the sea of quanta sink into the abyss of SoQ.

"My entity disappeared and my consciousness fell to the bottom of the 「Quantum Sea」, the world of the lowest energy where I would be trapped there forever."
"Or I was supposed to."
"I was lucky enough to find this holy sword that also came from the outside world while I was slowly sinking into the abyss."

It is stated to be an empty and blank world.

"——But what awaited me was an endless abyss devoid of everything"

Su also sank into the bottom of sea of quanta. And became an observer without no physical body after reaching a void with infinite possibilities. In chinese it's more explitcit

在你目不能及的虚空深处
In the deep void beyond the reach of your sight,

As stated by Su, it's a world above the sea.

Common misconception is that the tree is born from the SoQ 11D bulk. The scan people use to talk about it is this.

"Let us now imagine a tree - the Imaginary Tree."
"A massive tree whose crown cannot be seen, whose canopy of branches and leaves blots out of the sky."
"The Tree emerged from an endless Sea of unfathomable depths and boundaries."

But that's localization error and the original CN only says the sea is beneath the tree

“在树下, 是一片广袤的海, 它的深度无法探测, 它的边界不可触及。”

Since IT is not emerged from SoQ but rather from Primordial Chaos which is a nothingness void with infinite possibilities, it's also possible for L1-A structure to exist which was downgraded in previous threads. I don't really care about SoQ being 11D or 5D due to having compactified dimensions. It's fine as long as the difference between primordial chaos and SoQ bulk is made.

I don't really need to reestablish L1-A scaling because what I am doing here is trying to revert to old scaling by removing wrong downgrades.

 

[SuperNova55555]

People who lost their material existence in the sea of quanta sink into the abyss of SoQ.

It is stated to be an empty and blank world.

Su also sank into the bottom of sea of quanta. And became an observer without no physical body after reaching a void with infinite possibilities. In chinese it's more explitcit

As stated by Su, it's a world above the sea.

Common misconception is that the tree is born from the SoQ 11D bulk. The scan people use to talk about it is this.

But that's localization error and the original CN only says the sea is beneath the tree


Since IT is not emerged from SoQ but rather from Primordial Chaos which is a nothingness void with infinite possibilities, it's also possible for L1-A structure to exist which was downgraded in previous threads. I don't really care about SoQ being 11D or 5D due to having compactified dimensions. It's fine as long as the difference between primordial chaos and SoQ bulk is made.

I don't really need to reestablish L1-A scaling because what I am doing here is trying to revert to old scaling by removing wrong downgrades.

Can't even call this headcanon. You're basically just making shit up atp

 

[Weaver261]

Can't even call this headcanon. You're basically just making shit up atp

Making shit up? While I give related scans to prove that? If u don't have anything to argue back with scans, please help the thread by not commenting useless things like this.

 

[Mbpoops]

It only says “some deviations”. Nothing else suggests there’s any intrinsic difference to its compactification. It would be headcanon to suggest some other stuff.

"some deviations" when we know the sea of quanta doesnt exist in any known universe and doesnt abide by 3rd or 4th dimensional mathmatics. i sent these before but they specifically separate real space from the sea of quanta because the sea doesnt exist in real space. the sea cant exist in real space because the real space is on the tree which the sea of quanta logically cant exist on because it rivals the tree and the tree was born from the sea

my bad if i sounded a bit rude at the start

It can just be referencing how bubble worlds attain their dimensions or something.

the question had nothing to do with bubble worlds though why would it be referencing those

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

"low 1-A without further context" Doesn't mean statements of transcending dimensions are automatically low 1-A. It refers to without further context that'd make it 1-A. Also see here

 

[Weaver261]

"low 1-A without further context" Doesn't mean statements of transcending dimensions are automatically low 1-A. It refers to without further context that'd make it 1-A. Also see here

The standard definitely says

fall under this tier without further context

The FAQ only talks about different type of transcending with qualitative superiority being 1-A and quantitative superiority being L1-A (ofc if I am not tripping)

 

[SuperNova55555]

"some deviations" when we know the sea of quanta doesnt exist in any known universe and doesnt abide by 3rd or 4th dimensional mathmatics. i sent these before but they specifically separate real space from the sea of quanta because the sea doesnt exist in real space. the sea cant exist in real space because the real space is on the tree which the sea of quanta logically cant exist on because it rivals the tree and the tree was born from the sea

Statement that Real Space is only for IT? Cuz the one I have says the exact opposite. And yea. SoQ is higher-dimensional; it's js that those dimensions are compactified.

The scan is literally just saying that the way dimensions work in SoQ is a bit different, which can be very easily inferred by it's special ontology and functions. This doesn't imply any higher tiering nor does it necessitate it deviating from the already-established 4 real dimensions and 7 compact ones.

Making shit up? While I give related scans to prove that? If u don't have anything to argue back with scans, please help the thread by not commenting useless things like this.

You're literally just conflating SoQ being called empty and with possibilities as it being Chaos, when that's js how SoQ naturally functions. It's literally js a reference to quantum vacuums.

Su also sank into the bottom of sea of quanta.

Like this scan doesn't even say what you're saying lol.

 

[Hecky2222]

The standard definitely says

The FAQ only talks about different type of transcending with qualitative superiority being 1-A and quantitative superiority being L1-A (ofc if I am not tripping

I think you misunderstood him bit . He means transcending all possible dimensions without further explanation would be Low 1-A, hence with additional context you can get to 1-A

Whereas "transcending something" only is vague statement overall. Transcending would count only if you are superior to them. Or else bullshit like Dragon Ball's Afterlife automatically Low 1-A "cuz transcending all dimensions fall into Low 1-A without context"

 

[Weaver261]

You're literally just conflating SoQ being called empty and with possibilities as it being Chaos, when that's js how SoQ naturally functions. It's literally js a reference to quantum vacuums.

How is abyss of SoQ being quantum vacuum prevent it from being L1-A though? I am not really familiar with physic so I would like to know.

Like this scan doesn't even say what you're saying lol.

Because before this, Kevin also sank into bottom of SoQ with seed of sumeru bubble.

 

[SuperNova55555]

How is abyss of SoQ being quantum vacuum prevent it from being L1-A though? I am not really familiar with physic so I would like to know.

They are part of spacetime...

Because before this, Kevin also sank into bottom of SoQ with seed of sumeru bubble.

Right. So the "bottom" of SoQ is js to mean you've sunk really far into it. Nothing about becoming part of a primordial chaos or anything

 

[Weaver261]

Right. So the "bottom" of SoQ is js to mean you've sunk really far into it. Nothing about becoming part of a primordial chaos or anything

Then, it's not just bottom of SoQ but a separate higher plane where only enlightened ones like Su can reach. Not everybody who sank into Abyss became like Su anyway.

Still, it's above the sea and the description are the same as ggz chaos. Since both games exist in the same cosmology, this view worths merit imo

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Uff, well, to tell the truth, I don't really care allat much if this thread is open or not, but something really has to be decided to be done with the verse.

Nevertheless, a response won't hurt and I did say I'd make one.

So I believe as an opener, this scan will have to suffice:

So what's the scan? What's the source? How is it reputable and to be trusted? You provide literally no context on this. + Saying the SoQ belongs to Real Space is just weird when we see the gateway (The Eye of the Deep) flooding into reality.
It's also weird when we know that, at least dimensionally, the SoQ and the Imaginary Tree should be equal as she Sea and Tree feed on each other. This is, of course, besides the point, but with the minimum scaling of the Imaginary Tree (1-B) and the two dimensions clearly rivalling the two... it should upscale the Sea... yet this is ignored rather conveniently.

This scan even says the Quantum Sea and Imaginary Space are two independent existences so why are you grouping them together as Real Space in the following?

• All the extra dimensions are compactified

^ As a precursor, it should be mentioned the above scan is a mistranslation, I'm js too lazy to get the proper TL rn; in actuality it says the "universe" has 4 infinite dimensions and 7 compactified ones. The importance of this lies in the fact that this refers to the entirety of real space, since at the point in time when the Vn was made, that's the only thing that term can refer to.

This whole thing accumulates in the fact that the entirety of Real Space (the combination of SoQ and IT), only has 4 actually relevant dimensions. Which by definition means that whatever those last points are trying to pull are complete bs. And js reaching outta nowhere.

So you're saying the Imaginary Tree only has 4 relevant dimensions? I don't even need to argue against this if that's what you're saying. It's common consensus that, if that's what you're asserting, is untrue.
Plus it's asserted far more recently within the game that the Imaginary Tree exists on higher dimensions, just like the Theater of Domination. The VN dates back to 2018 and it's quite clear ideas and understandings of the cosmology within the writing team have changed since the VN.

Also grouping the IT and SoQ together when they exist on different dimensionalities is stupid. It's stated that they exist on different dimensions - ''create a tunnel that goes right through the Quantum dimension and enter the unknown...". Even within the scan you present Imaginary Space is distinguished from Real Space. All that Sirin's power does is basically multiply an object rather than a number by i, transferring it into Imaginary Space. When she multiplies it by i again the effect is that her subspace lance pops back into reality, overriding the objects that the lance is now present on. Imaginary Space and Real Space are connected in no way whatsoever.

Now, to respond to the general GGZ stuff.

As I explained in the original GGZ thread, this one is an anti-feat.
There's no issue with Yog being beyond space-time, but her power over things doesn't exceed spacetime at all. What's going on is that she is simply giving meaning and definitions to the Chaos framed within Space-Time, so that means that whatever she creates is delimited by the size of whatever Space and Time contain. Ergo, her power cannot be used to upscale Space-Time or her creation itself, so this is fundamentally null as a point:

Any scans or evidence? Yog is superior to the Imaginary Tree in GGZ so I don't see why this'd be true. The Imaginary Tree also contains spacetime. (See 2nd Scan.) This at least means she exists outside of the various spacetimes of reality, the SoQ and the Imaginary Tree, assuming beyond the I.T. or several of them in GGZ has any spacetime at all.
You seem to be arguing out of ignorance with nothing to back your claims on GGZ.

In fact, I'd be very surprised for you to find a single statement for anyone in GGZ being the origin of all Space and Time.

The closest thing you have is the Chaos statements like this one:

^ But like, given that we assert that GGZ Chaos is SoQ, then what Yog does is just create universes (Imaginary Trees) out of SoQ... which is fine for a Low 2-C feat if that's what you're aiming for. (I mean, Real Space is the only Space with meaning supposedly hehe).

^ Other shit like this are meaningless and don't add anything to the point at hand, so I'm js not gonna bother talking about them.

As for where the GGZ mfs scale to. Well their power honestly shouldn't go past Low 1-C at the very best. As for their existence, prob js BDE1.

Last time I checked the Imaginary Tree is still 1-B at minimum.
Edits: Fixing copy and paste being weird.

 

[Mbpoops]

Statement that Real Space is only for IT? Cuz the one I have says the exact opposite. And yea. SoQ is higher-dimensional; it's js that those dimensions are compactified.

The scan is literally just saying that the way dimensions work in SoQ is a bit different, which can be very easily inferred by it's special ontology and functions. This doesn't imply any higher tiering nor does it necessitate it deviating from the already-established 4 real dimensions and 7 compact ones.

they make it clear the sea is not apart of reality (real space)

You're literally just conflating SoQ being called empty and with possibilities as it being Chaos, when that's js how SoQ naturally functions. It's literally js a reference to quantum vacuums.


Like this scan doesn't even say what you're saying lol.

this isnt an argument against what ur saying i would just like to point out that Chaos (or primordial chaos) could very well just be summed up as an alternative name for the sea of quanta.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

im fine with 1-A loli yog but azathoth doesnt even have a page lmao

You don’t need a page. There’s an entire staff thread trying to chainscale Gojo and Sukuna to a character who doesn’t even have a profile.

 

[Mbpoops]

You don’t need a page. There’s an entire staff thread trying to chainscale Gojo and Sukuna to a character who doesn’t even have a profile.

so whats ur opinion of tghe theread

 

[SuperNova55555]

So what's the scan? What's the source? How is it reputable and to be trusted? You provide literally no context on this. + Saying the SoQ belongs to Real Space is just weird when we see the gateway (The Eye of the Deep) flooding into reality.
It's also weird when we know that, at least dimensionally, the SoQ and the Imaginary Tree should be equal as she Sea and Tree feed on each other. This is, of course, besides the point, but with the minimum scaling of the Imaginary Tree (1-B) and the two dimensions clearly rivalling the two... it should upscale the Sea... yet this is ignored rather conveniently.

This scan even says the Quantum Sea and Imaginary Space are two independent existences so why are you grouping them together as Real Space in the following?



So you're saying the Imaginary Tree only has 4 relevant dimensions? I don't even need to argue against this if that's what you're saying. It's common consensus that, if that's what you're asserting, is untrue.
Plus it's asserted far more recently within the game that the Imaginary Tree exists on higher dimensions, just like the Theater of Domination. The VN dates back to 2018 and it's quite clear ideas and understandings of the cosmology within the writing team have changed since the VN.

Also grouping the IT and SoQ together when they exist on different dimensionalities is stupid. It's stated that they exist on different dimensions - ''create a tunnel that goes right through the Quantum dimension and enter the unknown...". Even within the scan you present Imaginary Space is distinguished from Real Space. All that Sirin's power does is basically multiply an object rather than a number by i, transferring it into Imaginary Space. When she multiplies it by i again the effect is that her subspace lance pops back into reality, overriding the objects that the lance is now present on. Imaginary Space and Real Space are connected in no way whatsoever.

Any scans or evidence? Yog is superior to the Imaginary Tree in GGZ so I don't see why this'd be true. The Imaginary Tree also contains spacetime. (See 2nd Scan.) This at least means she exists outside of the various spacetimes of reality, the SoQ and the Imaginary Tree, assuming beyond the I.T. or several of them in GGZ has any spacetime at all.
You seem to be arguing out of ignorance with nothing to back your claims on GGZ.


Last time I checked the Imaginary Tree is still 1-B at minimum.
Edits: Fixing copy and paste being weird.

Uh. I was gonna reply to this since it seemed like a long comment, but it looks like it’s js a load of stuff already addressed in previous threads, or just stuff really not worth my time (I don’t think I have to explain why the “quantum dimension” is not something relevant here hopefully). Like I don’t think you even know why the Tree isn’t 1-B rn. In fact, I don’t think you realize that the Tree was originally 1-B because of SoQ—not the other way around.

As for the source, the link is at the bottom of the image; js copy-paste it.

reality (real space)

Proof that Reality is univocal with Real Space?

Then, it's not just bottom of SoQ but a separate higher plane where only enlightened ones like Su can reach. Not everybody who sank into Abyss became like Su anyway.

Still, it's above the sea and the description are the same as ggz chaos. Since both games exist in the same cosmology, this view worths merit imo

This doesn’t address my contentions. You’re fundamentally just saying “nuuh”. You don’t have a scan saying the bottom of SoQ is another plane of reality. I’d really love to see that.

 

[Iiliminal]

Yakub and his children disagree FRA

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Even if we’re being generous and saying the primordial chaos scales beyond the Sea of Quanta/Tree etc, that still wouldn’t make it Low 1-A. Like, I don’t get the Low 1-A tiering at all. This is genuinely 1-C at best.

 

[Mbpoops]

Proof that Reality is univocal with Real Space?

"prove that reality is real space" what else would it be? path space? quanta space? imaginary space?

 

[SuperNova55555]

"prove that reality is real space" what else would it be? path space? quanta space? imaginary space?

Many things? Reality is an extremely vague word lol. The only reason to grant your interpretation would be if every usage of the word Reality was in reference to Real Space every single time but even you know that's not true.

 

[Mbpoops]

Many things? Reality is an extremely vague word lol. The only reason to grant your interpretation would be if every usage of the word Reality was in reference to Real Space every single time but even you know that's not true.

Reality is only extremely vague because you want it to be. Every time they mention the sea of quanta is when they mention it by name (except in AE when they say “that 11 dimensional space”) so why would we assume reality would include the soq? Same thing with imaginary space they call it by name and separate it from “reality” or the “real world”. Do you have any showing of them refering to the sea as reality?

 

[SuperNova55555]

Reality is only extremely vague because you want it to be. Every time they mention the sea of quanta is when they mention it by name (except in AE when they say “that 11 dimensional space”) so why would we assume reality would include the soq? Same thing with imaginary space they call it by name and separate it from “reality” or the “real world”. Do you have any showing of them refering to the sea as reality?

No because "reality" as contemporarily understood in-verse as the place where beings commonly exist doesn't have a univocal meaning with "real space" since the definition of real space isn't that at all. It's literally js any space-time that isn't an Imaginary Subspace

 

[Mbpoops]

Strike one.

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

Uh. I was gonna reply to this since it seemed like a long comment, but it looks like it’s js a load of stuff already addressed in previous threads, or just stuff really not worth my time (I don’t think I have to explain why the “quantum dimension” is not something relevant here hopefully). Like I don’t think you even know why the Tree isn’t 1-B rn. In fact, I don’t think you realize that the Tree was originally 1-B because of SoQ—not the other way around.

As for the source, the link is at the bottom of the image; js copy-paste it.

I have typed it in - nothing comes up on my end, regardless it doesn't seem reputable.

I know why the SoQ got downgraded but regardless you need to prove 'real space' includes Img and Qua spaces. You can't and the burden of proof is on you here because it's accepted consensus that they're separate dimensions. If you'd have played Hi3 you'd know this lol.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Strike one.

What

I have typed it in - nothing comes up on my end, regardless it doesn't seem reputable.

It works for me

I know why the SoQ got downgraded but regardless you need to prove 'real space' includes Img and Qua spaces. You can't and the burden of proof is on you here because it's accepted consensus that they're separate dimensions. If you'd have played Hi3 you'd know this lol.

You can have many separate dimensions and them being Real Space. The requirement for Real Space is to be a space of real numbers and not imaginary ones like the subspaces. Also, I highly doubt that first part.

 

[Mbpoops]

What

This one is for the hoyo supporters not you pookie. Ffunny how im defending the verse yet still getting shit on off site

 

[SuperNova55555]

This one is for the hoyo supporters not you pookie. Ffunny how im defending the verse yet still getting shit on off site

Ok bbg

 

[Huesito88]

Strike one.

What happens when you get to strike three?

 

[Mbpoops]

What happens when you get to strike three?

nothing special ngl

 

[PlungingThroughTime]

What


It works for me


You can have many separate dimensions and them being Real Space. The requirement for Real Space is to be a space of real numbers and not imaginary ones like the subspaces. Also, I highly doubt that first part.

The SoQ got downgraded off of a back and forth argument that's been going on for ages on this wiki related to the compactified 7 dimensions and if they're scalable. Simple. This argument has been going on for ages and IMO that's why I don't like the VN, like previously stated. It's wonky at best and since the VN the series has headed in a different direction with its cosmology, as shown by HSR and the new Hi3 story.

Also why would the SoQ be represented via real numbers? It's stated in the cosmology page that the Sea can't be represented with 3rd or 4th dimensional mathematical concepts.
Not to mention the idea of 'Real Space' is hardly used in the game and its content. If the Sea is ever being referred to, it's explicit, not placed under this umbrella term like you think it is. 'Real Space' is literally just a substitution for 'Reality' - The reality of Earth, not the immediately distinguishable Sea of Quanta.


I know this because the phrase 'Real Space' is used in the cosmology page to specifically talk about Honkai and Herrschers being able to ignore Reality's physics... but we know the Sea of Quanta's physics are ever-changing and malleable because of bubble worlds colliding (simply just leaves fallen off the Imaginary Tree, into the SoQ). The Sea very obviously isn't implicated in the term 'Real Space' in this usage, it's just a substitution for the cast's reality.

Honkai originally belongs to the Imaginary Space, and when a collapse occurs, the Honkai Energy and Honkai Beast leaks out from the Imaginary Space to the Real Space, and the increase in energy causes catastrophic damage such as Honkai Eruption.

It is due to the nature of Honkai in Imaginary Space that the laws of physics in Real Space fail to follow, which is why the supernatural powers of the high-level Honkai Beasts and the Herrschers are able to defy the laws of physics.

In other words this term you use means literally nothing and reality doesn't include the Sea of Quanta. The Sea of Quanta is explicitly the colliding of different realities or bubble universes.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Also why would the SoQ be represented via real numbers? It's stated in the cosmology page that the Sea can't be represented with 3rd or 4th dimensional mathematical concepts.

And higher dimensions can't be represented with Real Numbers because...? In fact, all imaginary subspace does is make it so numerical ordering is impossible, but that's not what happens with higher dimensions.

Not to mention the idea of 'Real Space' is hardly used in the game and its content. If the Sea is ever being referred to, it's explicit, not placed under this umbrella term like you think it is. 'Real Space' is literally just a substitution for 'Reality' - The reality of Earth, not the immediately distinguishable Sea of Quanta.


I know this because the phrase 'Real Space' is used in the cosmology page to specifically talk about Honkai and Herrschers being able to ignore Reality's physics... but we know the Sea of Quanta's physics are ever-changing and malleable because of bubble worlds colliding (simply just leaves fallen off the Imaginary Tree, into the SoQ). The Sea very obviously isn't implicated in the term 'Real Space' in this usage, it's just a substitution for the cast's reality.

Because it's a completely vague term, yes. In fact even in HSR it's only referenced once in 3.7 as referring to the part of the cosmos outside of Path Space.

It's literally just whatever part of the universe is outside of Imaginary Space or Subspaces. That's literally all it fundamentally is.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

following

eitherway this exact same thing happend with tensura, and supporters solved it by doing staf threads insteads of CRT, which I think it would be better for hoyoverse as a whole.

Also who tf said sonic solos am dead

 

[Apotheosis69]

How is being unconstrained by space and time textbook Low 1-A, let alone 1-A?

 

[Mbpoops]

How is being unconstrained by space and time textbook Low 1-A, let alone 1-A?

Did he say that in the op? I lowkey forgot. I mean my justification for loli yog 1-A is her existing above the cosmology and being in a realm unreachable to eveyone aside from the reader but eh.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

How is being unconstrained by space and time textbook Low 1-A, let alone 1-A?

main problem here is no one played GGZ which is the backbone of ts, and iirc it isnt even translated