The nuking of Undertale: Part 1 out of 6 or 7

[Rodriiogo]

The fact we reached a point that the way this verse wants to be strong is trying to argue a staged and faked feat is real WITH ONE OF THEM NOT EVEN BEING IN THE MAIN GAME and is the thing that suppoedly carries the verse to a whole higher tier is insane to me by the way.

It's falling off to a new low of scaling in my opinion as I said in the OP:
TLDR: Both the Wall destroying feat and Bomb feat are faked and all scripted with props and stuff created by Alphys. It shouldn't be treated as a legitimate scale, especially now that the verse is not at the level of those supposed "feats".

 

[Axorandom0]

1 psi since it’s the “Bare minimum recommended for intent to harm personnel”. Maybe 0.5 if you’re being stingy with it. Can’t be 3 since that’s when fatalities start happening and Frisk no-selling it is a big point against that.

So I calculated the explosion with 1 psi, and it got results higher than the Ice Cap calc. When the calc gets accepted, it should act as a good improvement.

 

[Axorandom0]

So I calculated the explosion with 1 psi, and it got results higher than the Ice Cap calc. When the calc gets accepted, it should act as a good improvement.

Nevermind I forgot ISL

 

[Da3ggman]

Nevermind I forgot ISL

I feel ya bro

 

[StrymULTRA]

Part 3: Issue in the Pixel Scaling in-verse + establishing a base for it.
Currently, for calculations for feats that happen inside the Battle Box we use this singular in-between frame of Frisk and the Soul as a fight starts. That leads to insanely big attacks which are not meant to be that size. Here's multiple examples:

• Papyrus, according to the current soul size, makes a huge bone of over 4 meters long and a huge amount of bones that are all over 80cm long, and, throuhgout the fight uses an amount of around 409 bones in total, which, while not being as big as the 4 meters one, are still around the same zize if not bigger than the 80 cm long bones. Despite all of that, he is able to keep all the attacks he used throughout the fight against you in a singular box in his room. For comparission, the current volume of the 80cm bones is around 0.26m^3. If we use the fact that he used 409 bones (even ignoring that alot of bones are bigger as that'd make it worse), it'd mean the total volume that all his attacks occupy 106.34m^3. That would fill Papyrus's entire room.
• Mettaton during his fight uses leg attacks. This attacks are meant to be just like his actual legs. That's very clearly the intention of them. Despite this, if we use the current soul size, those legs are almost 7 meters long. Which isn't the case at all as we can see Mettaton's legs size in the overworld are barely around Frisk's height.
• Shyren uses her singing notes againt you in the fight, there they are seen as basically the same height of the soul (currently accepted as around the 50cm). During the credits in the performance with Mettaton we see that her notes are actually extremely small and only around 10cm at best considering how small Shyren herself is.
• Mad Dummy, who is around Frisk's height, gets hit with Napstablook's tears at the end of his fight, and some of said tears are shown to be smaller than even his head alone, not only are they shown as around the size of the soul in the same scene but even during Napstablook's own fight, even though his tears are even smaller they are still around the soul's size. To more show how small they are, Napstablook needs a huge amount of them just to create a hat on his head with said tears being smaller than even his own pupils.
• During the fight against Toriel, she uses her hands to create fire attacks in sequence and throw them at you. During that scene, a representation of her hand appears on the battle box, and said hand is shown as way bigger than the soul even though Toriel's own hands are obviously not that big.
• Lemonbread during his fight disappears out of where monsters normally are during the fight and goes to bite your soul. During that, his teeth and eye are shown AS WAY BIGGER than the soul. Even though... yea. The teeth and eyes are, once again, obviously not meters long.
• You have a flexing competition against Aaron during his fight where you both are flexing against each other, because of that his attacks are his actual arms flexing towards you. But as you can see his arms are shown as way bigger than the soul. Even though- you get the point.

There's obviously more examples, this is just some of them. The attacks and the soul itself is obviously not meant to be that big as we currently make it out to be. The in-battle sprites are obviously in different size than the actual size of stuff, so what I propose is very simple:

(Calc link)
The soul width should be changed to around 0.15m aka 15cm via Mettaton's heart-shaped core.
I consider this way more consistent with what the story makes its size to be alongside the fact that the heart shaped core is actually meant and showed to be simillar to the heart shaped soul while being something that just straight up fits around mettaton's waist alone. More examples of this being consistent are:

• Asgore's soul upon he dies is shown as way smaller than his entire body, even his hands being bigger.
• Toriel's soul if you kill her is also shown as way smaller just like Asgore's, even being shown to be the same size as yours in the same scene.
• All the human souls are shown to be smaller than Flowey and he even story-wise absorbs them into his own body which by itself is short.
• At Alphys's work table in her lab we see blueprints of the soul on the table alongside the tools that she uses. This important because we know she was the one that extracted determination from the souls with said blueprints. I don't think I need to explain via the drawings and the whole context why it being 50cm is absurd.
• (DELTARUNE) In Deltarune, when Kris rips the soul off his body, it's shown that the soul is only around slightly bigger than his own hand. This is shown again consistently on three more occasions. (I know this is Deltarune but it does work as supporting proof for the consistency of the soul not being that big at all)

This soul size being 15cm also makes in-battle sizes just overall way more consistent aswell obviously.

Spoiler: Important Note, Please read

There are two scenes where souls do look bigger aka here and here, the point of the thread and in general is to say that the soul being around 15cm is way more consistent with everything else. The mettaton way is used because it is something that logically has to be that size otherwise it would not fit on mettaton's waist which makes this the most logical and consistent way of doing it especially due to how it's way more consistent with the sizes of everything else said in the thread. Please refrain from addressing those two scenes as "gotchas" on the soul not being that small. The whole point is that it is more consistently around 15cm than 40-50cm.

Imma be fr, I've always been weirded with the idea of using the SOUL Size as an universal metric, given what Toby himself has said here:

Other stuff I might add is:

• The annoying Dog somehow becoming larger than how it was back in the overworld.
• Characters who directly attack the Battle Box like Asgore, Asriel or Muffet would become at least 5 meters tall if we directly scale them to the SOUL.

Things I fully disagree with are however the usage of the Papyrus, Mettaton and Toriel's hand stuff.

• For the Papyrus bit, in Undertale we know about the existence of the Dimensional Boxes, to the point that even our phone can hold in items thanks to the feature. If we use your 15 cm suggestion, I bet the bones would also fill at least a good chunk of the room, as no way a tiny box can hold in itself over 400 bones over 20 cm long lol.
• For the Mettaton bit... how exactly are you interpreting this as just him using kicks? I'll just give timestamps of this video, as:
  • 4:09: The legs are literally at completely opposite directions, no way can legs move like that.
  • 4:56: He uses the arms he had in only his box form, but does this mean that's just him punching? Heavily doubt it given that he's not having that kind of arm anymore.
  • 9:28: If the attacks are meant to be just him kicking, then why are there 3 legs each time alongside him directly attacking the battle box with the core? The game definitely makes it clear if the character is just using a body part (Asgore, Asriel, Aaron), but it's hard to argue it here when he's already attacking with his core though.
• For the Toriel bit, I do not agree that are literally her hands, as Asgore also uses the same attack while having his hands busy with the trident (and he uses it directly in the battle in both the link above and when he breaks the MERCY button, I do think it's clear it's not just the hands lol.

Though, though, I do think that other than these two scenes, we also have the Omega Flowey cutscene or when Frisk uses one of Undyne's spears in the latter's fight to defend themselves, this would not make any sense if it's just 15 cm big.

In fact, I do not remotely think that 15 cm would make much sense overall in Undertale. While the fights are abstracted, we're still talking of places where the battles clearly affect the body and are not some kind of astral projection where the SOUL pops out in order to move in a box, given how Toriel just blasted Flowey (who is explcitly soulless) away with one of her fireballs, or Undyne fighting you in real time in the overworld with her spears, and how can Frisk even dodge these attacks if the gap between attacks is only slightly more than 15 cm? This is not even about attacks being hard, but about 3D movement, as you can't move through something too small to pass in.

I think that given that some situations are just nonsensical regardless of the end you wanna use for the SOUL size, the best option here is to just not use it at all for feats happening in the battle box, but just evaluate them in a case by-case basis, as Toby did say that it's inconsistent, but using a single, universal size for all the attacks no matter what is always gonna lean in contradictions, no matter where you look at.

For the MTT feats stuff, Imma ngl I could have argued differently from the dialogue box only saying "few feet wide", but Toby adding "few feet deep" really seems to make the hole custom made for MTT lol.

 

[Qurbonboev]

All monsters superior to 12 ATK now would be Class 5 (2.42 Tons), due to Ice Wolf being able to lift and throw large ice cubes;

Can't write response properly now. Only things I want to add is that:
1) 2.42 tons is weight of ice cube. Force of throw itself is calced at 12.5 tons.
2) I planned to argue about whether Asgore and Toriel should scale to full value of Flowey feat. But CRT is already big as is. I will tackle this specific question later.
3) If you tried to measure SOUL size via tsunderplne or froggit sprites in battlebox, you would have got much higher results than current one. Corroborates above point by Strym.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Uh huh 15cm surely doesn't have consistency with the other examples I said in the op:

You consistency is fake though:
Aaron: His muscles have different shape in battlebox(they are curled up), which deflates results
Napstablook: Eye dramatically change in shape
Shyren:What exactly you are comparing? Part of the head to the SOUL? If yes, just compare to the full size of it.
Mettaton heart: Again, heart sprite in battlebox is bigger relative to head(while being in the body), compared to heart sprite in overworld. Deflates results
Toriel hands: First, you are comparing her palm size while her thumb is separate from main palm to position where they all together(otherwise you would have seen clothes). Deflates results. And also what Strym said above.
And last thing: pretty much in all your cases you were pixelscaling pretty small objects. Which is pretty bad, given that creative decision to increase or reduce size by one pixel would dramatically change results. In Napstablook example it forced devs to change eye shape due to small size of them. Why would they retain size faithfully, if it forces to change shape? And also, when trying to pixelscale small objects, same amount of errors would result in much bigger relative errors, compared to pixelscaling big objects.

If you trying to compare SOUL to objects in battlebox, it's better to pick big object inside battlebox. And I don't think there is a better example, than Sans forehead. It's big, there is no question of whether it is actually Sans head, and it fit fully in battlebox.
You can also add Shyren head, since notes don't change in sizes in their path from her head to the SOUL.

Using them both, we get this.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Things I fully disagree with are however the usage of the Papyrus, Mettaton and Toriel's hand stuff.

• For the Papyrus bit, in Undertale we know about the existence of the Dimensional Boxes, to the point that even our phone can hold in items thanks to the feature. If we use your 15 cm suggestion, I bet the bones would also fill at least a good chunk of the room, as no way a tiny box can hold in itself over 400 bones over 20 cm long lol.

I literally proved it can indeed fit those bones and you just lied about it "filling at least a good chunk of the room":

Going off the recalc, the volume of the big bone would only be 0.09748990323m^3

Going off your measurements (cause I'm lazy to do it myself ) for the difference between the measurements of the big bone and small bones would be around 4.5x, less, you'd get around 0.0008555244872m^3 for each small bone. 0.0008555244872*402 = 0.3439208439m^3

A 1m^3 box alone would fit the small bones easily on rough calcs. It fits way more than what the 50cm soul would do as I explained in OP.

However even if you wanna argue dimensional boxes. They have a limit to how much they can hold aswell. Your dimensional box gets full with just up to 10 decently big items.

4:09: The legs are literally at completely opposite directions, no way can legs move like that.

They are representations, not literal, that's the point. Graphics limitations.

4:56: He uses the arms he had in only his box form, but does this mean that's just him punching? Heavily doubt it given that he's not having that kind of arm anymore.

I'm pretty sure the arms in the box form are meant to be the same (at least in shape) as the ex form.

They are inside the box's body normally and he pulls them out just like how EX's legs also are.

So I don't see the reason to why Toby would swap the sprite.

• 9:28: If the attacks are meant to be just him kicking, then why are there 3 legs each time alongside him directly attacking the battle box with the core? The game definitely makes it clear if the character is just using a body part (Asgore, Asriel, Aaron), but it's hard to argue it here when he's already attacking with his core though.

Undertale still has graphics limitations. Making kicking animations for the attacks Toby was tryna do would require a level of graphics that Undertale is not at. Same way that aaron as you mentioned, despite being literally flexing with his own hands does not do the same movement asgore and asriel do.

For the Toriel bit, I do not agree that are literally her hands, as Asgore also uses the same attack while having his hands busy with the trident (and he uses it directly in the battle in both the link above and when he breaks the MERCY button, I do think it's clear it's not just the hands lol.

Same as the above. They would have to make a whole sprite where Asgore steps down his trident and uses his hands to do it. You even agreed with the aaron example so im confused why this proves anything.

Though, though, I do think that other than these two scenes, we also have the Omega Flowey cutscene or when Frisk uses one of Undyne's spears in the latter's fight to defend themselves, this would not make any sense if it's just 15 cm big.

I agree with Omega being an inconsistency, the point is still that it's more consistent. As for Undyne, she can make her spears insanely small we see that during the fight her spears size change drastically constantly.


To answer everything below:

The whole point is that 15cm is the most consistent way if we wanna pixel scale said attacks. I'm proposing using that to be the best base we can do, with the only option being not using battle pixel scaling at all. I think it's better to at least keep some pixel scale which is decently consistent, as I already proved. There is some inconsistencies (3 from what I can see) but considering how everything else is consistent I don't think it's necessary.

 

[Rodriiogo]

1) 2.42 tons is weight of ice cube. Force of throw itself is calced at 12.5 tons.

That one was not what is used on the page so I didn't include it. Will change it then, however ask someone to put it in the verse page then lol.

3) If you tried to measure SOUL size via tsunderplne or froggit sprites in battlebox, you would have got much higher results than current one. Corroborates above point by Strym.

I will not repeat what I've been saying around 10 times.

 

[Qurbonboev]

I will not repeat what I've been saying around 10 times.

Would you at least bother to answer my objections to your examples of consistency?
And objectively, is there better way to measure SOUL size than via comparing it to Sans when he is literally in the battlebox?(yields 25 cm).

 

[Qurbonboev]

Will change it then, however ask someone to put it in the verse page then lol.

You can't just put calc in the verse page. It needs to be accepted in the CRT first. Since calc is already accepted by Armor, and there is no worry of it being outlier, you might as well just put calc in the OP

 

[StrymULTRA]

However even if you wanna argue dimensional boxes. They have a limit to how much they can hold aswell. Your dimensional box gets full with just up to 10 decently big items.

Please hold on the "lying" accusations dog, I was only estimating smh.

They are representations, not literal, that's the point. Graphics limitations.

I don't get the point of "representation", what's supposed to represent if we have an in-universe statement of using bullet patterns lol. You're just trying to make up a point that just never existed.

I'm pretty sure the arms in the box form are meant to be the same (at least in shape) as the ex form.

You gotta forgive me here, but I HAVE NEVER NOTICED THAT LOL.

Besides, I have no idea on what's supposed to represent given that it's not really a portrayal of punching something, as they made it clear if a character directly attacks with a melee attack (Dogi).

Undertale still has graphics limitations. Making kicking animations for the attacks Toby was tryna do would require a level of graphics that Undertale is not at.

Or... Toby simply cannot use kick attacks at all.

I mean, it's not even the only instance of what looks like a character's melee attack being in actuality multiple bullets like KK's morningstar.

Same way that aaron as you mentioned, despite being literally flexing with his own hands does not do the same movement asgore and asriel do.

And?

Same as the above. They would have to make a whole sprite where Asgore steps down his trident and uses his hands to do it. You even agreed with the aaron example so im confused why this proves anything.

This is just you enforcing your interpretation on how Toby thinks and operates, which is just impossible to do as you're basing yourself on some authority that doesn't exist. You cannot prove that Toby's intent was that, especially when he already made an animation of a character dropping their weapon mid-fight, why are you lying like this?

That one was not what is used on the page so I didn't include it. Will change it then, however ask someone to put it in the verse page then lol.

As Qur said, you need permission from evaluating staff to implement it in the page.

Also, Omega Flowey would still be Class K for overpowering Asgore, Toriel (both scaling to 47.775 Tons each), Papyrus, Undyne (12.5 Tons each), Sans and Alphys (0.443189101424 Tons each), getting 121.44 Tons in total. Aka a "Class K, higher with all vines" should do imo

 

[Rodriiogo]

Aaron: His muscles have different shape in battlebox(they are curled up), which deflates results

I took that into account, look at the pixel scaling

Napstablook: Eye dramatically change in shape

They don't, they are wobbling because he is crying.

Shyren:What exactly you are comparing? Part of the head to the SOUL? If yes, just compare to the full size of it.

Her mouth, aka where the notes come from is around the same length as the soul which matches the notes size with 15cm.

Mettaton heart: Again, heart sprite in battlebox is bigger relative to head(while being in the body), compared to heart sprite in overworld. Deflates results

Battle sprites for monsters are not used due to inconsistency this has been repeated 5 times already, stop constantly doing it. And I've said I did it before, it only gets 3 more cm.

Toriel hands: First, you are comparing her palm size while her thumb is separate from main palm to position where they all together(otherwise you would have seen clothes). Deflates results. And also what Strym said above.

No? I compared the length of the hand... to the length of the hand.

And last thing: pretty much in all your cases you were pixelscaling pretty small objects. Which is pretty bad, given that creative decision to increase or reduce size by one pixel would dramatically change results. In Napstablook example it forced devs to change eye shape due to small size of them. Why would they retain size faithfully, if it forces to change shape? And also, when trying to pixelscale small objects, same amount of errors would result in much bigger relative errors, compared to pixelscaling big objects.

That's not what I'm saying. Napstablook's attacks come from his eye (and as I pointed out in the thread, he needs ALOT OF ATTACKS to even make a small hat with them), Shyren's attacks come from her mouth, Aaron's attacks are his biceps, Toriel's attacks come from her hand and even are her hand. The attacks can't POSSIBLY be bigger than those stuff otherwise it literally wouldn't match in the same way that Mettaton's core CAN NOT be possibly bigger than 15cm cause his waist is NOT that big.

If you trying to compare SOUL to objects in battlebox, it's better to pick big object inside battlebox. And I don't think there is a better example, than Sans forehead. It's big, there is no question of whether it is actually Sans head, and it fit fully in battlebox.

Sans's sprite especifically is extremely inconsistent in size, once again, look at the asriel intro and compare his sizes to the monsters around him.

You can also add Shyren head, since notes don't change in sizes in their path from her head to the SOUL.

Why are you adding her head instead of where the attacks come from as I did... her mouth? And same situation as Sans.

 

[Rodriiogo]

I don't get the point of "representation", what's supposed to represent if we have an in-universe statement of using bullet patterns lol. You're just trying to make up a point that just never existed.

Even if bullet patterns do exist, as you even agreed with Asgore, Asriel and Aaron, the monsters themselves can also include their body in the patterns alongside their magic attacks.

You gotta forgive me here, but I HAVE NEVER NOTICED THAT LOL.

fair

Besides, I have no idea on what's supposed to represent given that it's not really a portrayal of punching something, as they made it clear if a character directly attacks with a melee attack (Dogi).

In the same way that Aaron could also use his arms to punch someone but instead chooses to flex as his attacks, Mettaton is using it in a different way in the pattern.

Or... Toby simply cannot use kick attacks at all.
I mean, it's not even the only instance of what looks like a character's melee attack being in actuality multiple bullets like KK's morningstar.

To be more simple, the point is that the representations of said kicks, arms and even the morningstar as you said are not meant to be 5x bigger than the actual thing.

And?

Not all monsters that attack physically will literally make their sprite attack the battle box due to graphics limitations.

This is just you enforcing your interpretation on how Toby thinks and operates, which is just impossible to do as you're basing yourself on some authority that doesn't exist. You cannot prove that Toby's intent was that, especially when he already made an animation of a character dropping their weapon mid-fight, why are you lying like this?

The point is that Toby limits himself on the animations alot. I genuinely don't think saying Toby didn't intend mettaton to be able to summon legs 5x his own's size is insane to say.

You can't just put calc in the verse page. It needs to be accepted in the CRT first. Since calc is already accepted by Armor, and there is no worry of it being outlier, you might as well just put calc in the OP

As Qur said, you need permission from evaluating staff to implement it in the page.

Also, Omega Flowey would still be Class K for overpowering Asgore, Toriel (both scaling to 47.775 Tons each), Papyrus, Undyne (12.5 Tons each), Sans and Alphys (0.443189101424 Tons each), getting 121.44 Tons in total. Aka a "Class K, higher with all vines" should do imo

Will add that to the OP in a bit then.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Even if bullet patterns do exist, as you even agreed with Asgore, Asriel and Aaron, the monsters themselves can also include their body in the patterns alongside their magic attacks.

Also forgot to mention, the Asriel example just further proves how small the soul is considering how big his swords and even his arm are compared to the soul:

(We don't know asriel's GoH size outside of assumptions and battle sprites which are inconsistent so we can't assume but I don't think it's ridiculous to say he doesn't have like a 5 meters long arm)

 

[Qurbonboev]

(We don't know asriel's GoH size outside of assumptions and battle sprites which are inconsistent so we can't assume but I don't think it's ridiculous to say he doesn't have like a 5 meters long arm)

No, it's ridiculous to say. GoH has shapeshifting, lmao. And we did see how good it is when fighting Omega Flowey, and several times in GoH fight.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Even if bullet patterns do exist, as you even agreed with Asgore, Asriel and Aaron, the monsters themselves can also include their body in the patterns alongside their magic attacks.

Because they are exceptions where that's blatant.

In the same way that Aaron could also use his arms to punch someone but instead chooses to flex as his attacks, Mettaton is using it in a different way in the pattern.

I mean sure? But I do not think it changes my point overall as they're not really meant to be really kicks ngl, it's definitely not what I've got when I played it.

To be more simple, the point is that the representations of said kicks, arms and even the morningstar as you said are not meant to be 5x bigger than the actual thing.

The morningstar point was precisely to prove it's not an abstraction of it just slamming the weapon on ya, unless it can somehow split in 5 copies to strike you at once.

The point is that Toby limits himself on the animations alot.

But do not say that "they need Asgore to drop his weapon and they can't do that" when it's shown that it's within their capabilities.

I genuinely don't think saying Toby didn't intend mettaton to be able to summon legs 5x his own's size is insane to say.

Yours is just incredulity tbf. Yourself have admitted above that Undyne can create spears of varying size, so why can't we say the same for MTT when he can use mini-clones of himself?

Also, again with the "Toby did not intend", stop trying to use author intent, it's not like you met Toby and talked to him about this lol.

No, it's ridiculous to say. GoH has shapeshifting, lmao. And we did see how good it is when fighting Omega Flowey, and several times in GoH fight.

Let's not rat it's clear that GoH cannot be that much bigger than Asgore

 

[Rodriiogo]

No, it's ridiculous to say. GoH has shapeshifting, lmao. And we did see how good it is when fighting Omega Flowey, and several times in GoH fight.

Cmon man

Because they are exceptions where that's blatant.

I think other mosnters not doing it doesn't mean they can't. Monsters just have their own way of attacking the battle box, we see that Sans can indeed just go to the batttle box if he wants to in the 10th anniversary stream even though he never did that, we see that during Papyrus's date we get trasnfered to a view of the soul aswell, where the soul can even go near Papyrus (and once again we see the soul is small by the way)

I mean sure? But I do not think it changes my point overall as they're not really meant to be really kicks ngl, it's definitely not what I've got when I played it.

Yea the point is that it is still his legs. The whole time Mettaton was posing around and doing all types of acrobatics.

But do not say that "they need Asgore to drop his weapon and they can't do that" when it's shown that it's within their capabilities.

I more so meant that they limited their own graphics and therefore were unable to make Asgore do that in that case since they'd have to animate him dropping it, a whole other sprite for his hand using the attack, and then him picking up the trident, not that they LITERALLY can't, but I get the confusion that's my bad.

Yours is just incredulity tbf. Yourself have admitted above that Undyne can create spears of varying size, so why can't we say the same for MTT when he can use mini-clones of himself?
Also, again with the "Toby did not intend", stop trying to use author intent, it's not like you met Toby and talked to him about this lol.

I don't think it's crazy to get to that conclusion because of everything I've said up until now merged together makes that consistently the case, alongside the internal consistency of 15cm soul most of the time and the fact that Mettaton literally can't use his legs attacks after he loses his own physical legs.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Why are you adding her head instead of where the attacks come from as I did... her mouth? And same situation as Sans.

o, you didn't. Look at them closer

There you measure distance from "half" to tip of the arm

But there you measured distance from "half" to the point where it curles around.
Aaron visibly curles around his tip his fist. If I curl around my fist, my total hand length (as measured by your method) would decrease.

They don't, they are wobbling because he is crying

You can clearly see that they have different shape from the start. Napstablook eyes have different shape in battlebox and in overworld. There is no guarantee that they retain their size too. So it should be invalid.

Her mouth, aka where the notes come from is around the same length as the soul which matches the notes size with 15cm.

Her mouth doesn't even have same shape when notes came from them and when in the overworld. But it still can be used for comparison.

Battle sprites for monsters are not used due to inconsistency this has been repeated 5 times already, stop constantly doing it.

Yet you still use battle sprite of Mettaton heart, curious.

No? I compared the length of the hand... to the length of the hand.

No. You are measuring distance between the thumb and opposing side of palm. Which would obviously deflate results, if you are comparing it to the palm, with all fingers being together.

Sans's sprite especifically is extremely inconsistent in size, once again, look at the asriel intro and compare his sizes to the monsters around him.

You are severely exaggerating inconsistency. Even differences as small as 5% between different sprites would be enough to create such inconsistencies between monster sprites. Meanwhile for all examples you provided:
1. Creative decision to change shape or size for some reason would greatly change your results.
2. Even small errors in pixelscaling would snowball into big one. It's easy to make 15% mistake in each point(which are 4 in this case), which snowball into x1.75 difference.
Also, let me repeat: you are comparing sprite of Aaron muscles while they are inside battlebox to calculate SOUL size. I do same thing, compare SOUL to Sans sprite while he is inside battlebox, to calculate SOUL. I don't get your objections honestly. Only main difference is that Sans head has same shape in battlebox and in overworld, unlike Aaron muscles(which he flexes and curles up).

Why are you adding her head instead of where the attacks come from as I did... her mouth? And same situation as Sans.

I did heard you, this is why I am now comparing mouths, when they have same shape. Unlike you

 

[Qurbonboev]

Cmon man

You are deadass arguing that it's impossible for GoH Asriel to have 5m arms, while his massively weaker form could transform into this, bruh. Cmon man.
There are better straws to catch

 

[StrymULTRA]

we see that Sans can indeed just go to the batttle box if he wants to in the 10th anniversary stream even though he never did that

what

we see that during Papyrus's date we get trasnfered to a view of the soul aswell, where the soul can even go near Papyrus (and once again we see the soul is small by the way)

I do not think that using a clear gag thing which is nowhere close to the more serious fight is a honest argument, ngl.

Yea the point is that it is still his legs. The whole time Mettaton was posing around and doing all types of acrobatics.

Completely unrelated thing, said legs also come at impossible angles which just cannot be if they're meant to be just kicks. Again, it's definitely stated if it happens like with Aaron's flexing.

I more so meant that they limited their own graphics and therefore were unable to make Asgore do that in that case since they'd have to animate him dropping it, a whole other sprite for his hand using the attack, and then him picking up the trident, not that they LITERALLY can't, but I get the confusion that's my bad.

But they managed to animate such sequence with Undyne, and they can indeed animate characters moving to attack the battle box like Asriel or Muffet, this isn't a point lol.

I don't think it's crazy to get to that conclusion because of everything I've said up until now merged together makes that consistently the case, alongside the internal consistency of 15cm soul most of the time and the fact that Mettaton literally can't use his legs attacks after he loses his own physical legs.

This seems to be just a weakness of his EX form due to the inefficient battery consumption of that form.

While I get what you mean, I still find it hard to believe that he somehow grows 5 pairs of legs at once, given that it's simultaneous, it's not like 5 leg bullets thrown at a rapid sequence either.

 

[Rodriiogo]

There you measure distance from "half" to tip of the arm

But there you measured distance from "half" to the point where it curles around.
Aaron visibly curles around his tip his fist. If I curl around my fist, my total hand length (as measured by your method) would decrease.

That's why I (in the overworld) included the distance until the end of the forearm when I didn't in the battle box but didn't include the hand in the battle. To add that extra size. It is indeed consistent. Do those positions with your arms and check.

You can clearly see that they have different shape from the start. Napstablook eyes have different shape in battlebox and in overworld. There is no guarantee that they retain their size too. So it should be invalid.

That's just the overworld sprite being able to make curved corners because of how small the eyes are...?
"There is no guarantee that they retain their size too" Dude. Take a good look at your arguments. You think Napstablook can make his eyes bigger? You genuinely think all monsters have size manipulation on themselves at this point.

Her mouth doesn't even have same shape when notes came from them and when in the overworld. But it still can be used for comparison.

Yea... that's why I used the notes...? Because the notes can't be

Yet you still use battle sprite of Mettaton heart, curious.

Look at the OP and tell me where did I use that? If you actually look back at the OP, I actually just measured the length overworld and said they are around the same size so it's better to say the same. I never used pixel scaling in the battle box. I want you to re-read this sentence cause you keep ignoring and trying to make up inconsistencies:
"The mettaton way is used because it is something that logically has to be that size otherwise it would not fit on mettaton's waist which makes this the most logical and consistent way of doing it especially due to how it's way more consistent with the sizes of everything else said in the thread."

No. You are measuring distance between the thumb and opposing side of palm. Which would obviously deflate results, if you are comparing it to the palm, with all fingers being together.

The thumb would be included in the overworld sprite since she's hugging frisk. You do not hug someone with your thumb inside your palm what the hell?

You are severely exaggerating inconsistency. Even differences as small as 5% between different sprites would be enough to create such inconsistencies between monster sprites. Meanwhile for all examples you provided:
1. Creative decision to change shape or size for some reason would greatly change your results.
2. Even small errors in pixelscaling would snowball into big one. It's easy to make 15% mistake in each point(which are 4 in this case), which snowball into x1.75 difference.
Also, let me repeat: you are comparing sprite of Aaron muscles while they are inside battlebox to calculate SOUL size. I do same thing, compare SOUL to Sans sprite while he is inside battlebox, to calculate SOUL. I don't get your objections honestly. Only main difference is that Sans head has same shape in battlebox and in overworld, unlike Aaron muscles(which he flexes and curles up).

"Exxagerating inconsistency" is a severly underestatement of how you are trying to say Mettaton either has a 30cm or 70cm waist. And using singular inconsistencies with inconsistent battle sizes instead of the most logically and consistent story-wise way.
And the objection is that the monsters size is inconsistent with their overworld, especially since most of the time said sprites are used to being in a back scenario compared to where the soul is, the attack isn't.

I did heard you, this is why I am now comparing mouths, when they have same shape. Unlike you

I did not use the mouths in the battle box, I used the notes since they have to be smaller than her mouth vertically, not horizontally as you said.

 

[Rodriiogo]

You are deadass arguing that it's impossible for GoH Asriel to have 5m arms, while his massively weaker form could transform into this, bruh. Cmon man.
There are better straws to catch

Look at the transformation scene between Kid Asriel and GoH asriel and tell me with a straight face "yea that guy has a 5 meter long arm" You are unreal.

what

Dot.

I do not think that using a clear gag thing which is nowhere close to the more serious fight is a honest argument, ngl.

The point is that it isn't unusual for monsters to be able to do that, it's normal still. (And again why would the soul be that small even in a gag if it is not meant to be that small?)

Completely unrelated thing, said legs also come at impossible angles which just cannot be if they're meant to be just kicks. Again, it's definitely stated if it happens like with Aaron's flexing.

Mettaton could be going from those angles, he is at the middle of screen constantly in our view yes but, just like aaron it doesn't mean he's actually just standing there (otherwise how would the flexes be near you). It doesn't have to be stated if it's obviously the implication it's doing in my opinion..

But they managed to animate such sequence with Undyne, and they can indeed animate characters moving to attack the battle box like Asriel or Muffet, this isn't a point lol.

They don't animate alot of stuff still. I was saying you can't say "they didn't animate it" as a point.

This seems to be just a weakness of his EX form due to the inefficient battery consumption of that form.

He can literally do all of his attacks except his arms and legs attacks. It's very convenient that his "battery consumption" strictly made him unable to use the attacks that he physically loses no? I think the intent is obvious in my opinion.

While I get what you mean, I still find it hard to believe that he somehow grows 5 pairs of legs at once, given that it's simultaneous, it's not like 5 leg bullets thrown at a rapid sequence either.

I think that would be more of a sequence to show that Mettaton is kicking fast kinda like how, in Deltarune, Gerson has an attack where he seemingly multiplicates himself but in actuality it's just him attacking fast.

 

[Axorandom0]

I think that would be more of a sequence to show that Mettaton is kicking fast fast kinda like how, in Deltarune, Gerson whas an attack where he seemingly multiplicates himself but in actuality it's just him attacking fast.

Mettaton speed/KE upscale real /j

Mettaton isn’t even doing a similar thing to Gerson. All of Mettaton’s legs are moving in a uniform fashion, why should they suddenly be blitzing perception? It’s legit something only a powerscaler would try to argue

 

[Rodriiogo]

Mettaton speed/KE upscale real /j

Mettaton isn’t even doing a similar thing to Gerson. All of Mettaton’s legs are moving in a uniform fashion, why should they suddenly be blitzing perception? It’s legit something only a powerscaler would try to argue

I'm not saying they are blitzing perception, I'm saying they are just him kicking multiple times fast. (And no it shouldnt be used for scale smh)

Aaron also only has 2 arms but you can see 3 arms on screen multiple times even though the story makes it clear that it's him physically doing it (as strym even agreed).

 

[Axorandom0]

I'm not saying they are blitzing perception, I'm saying they are just him kicking multiple times fast. (And no it shouldnt be used for scale smh)

I mean, they would have to be blitzing in order for more than 2 legs to appear, no?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

 

[Rodriiogo]

I mean, they would have to be blitzing in order for more than 2 legs to appear, no?

Not really. There's alot of showings in fiction of characters creating more than one "image" of themselves without blitzing the other. And in this case of undertale it's just to show how he's kicking you fast more than one time within the limitations of graphics they have.

(Again Aaron example aswell:
Aaron also only has 2 arms but you can see 3 arms on screen multiple times even though the story makes it clear that it's him physically doing it (as strym even agreed).

 

[Qurbonboev]

That's why I (in the overworld) included the distance until the end of the forearm when I didn't in the battle box but didn't include the hand in the battle. To add that extra size. It is indeed consistent. Do those positions with your arms and check.

So you did know that they are not identical, and just added a bit of lenght to smaller one to compensate? Instead of you know, using more reliable calcs? We don't need to be sloppy like this at all

You think Napstablook can make his eyes bigger? You genuinely think all monsters have size manipulation on themselves at this point.

This is the last straw. Stop making obviously false claims. I didn't say that they can manipulate their size. I said that when dealing with small objects and sprites, devs are routinely forced to sacrifice size accuracy.
If you are so insistent on using Napstablook eyes, I added them to my calc compilation.

Yea... that's why I used the notes...? Because the notes can't be

I don't see any notes in the overworld.

I actually just measured the length overworld and said they are around the same size so it's better to say the same

"They are around the same size so it's better to say the same"
No, it's sloppy, stop doing this

The thumb would be included in the overworld sprite since she's hugging frisk. You do not hug someone with your thumb inside your palm what the hell?

Look at your measurements. Your hand measurement includes not only palm, but also distance between 4 fingers and thumb fingers, which doesn't exists. Added it to my calc compilation.

Look at the transformation scene between Kid Asriel and GoH asriel and tell me with a straight face "yea that guy has a 5 meter long arm" You are unreal

Fine. Since you for some reason think it's valid for scaling sizes, I added this example too.

So, this how this looks like now. 6 methods, including ones you yourself proposed. What do you have against it, if we subtract ones where:
a) you know that comparison is wrong(Aaron)
b) just eyeballed stuff, because they look similar(Mettaton heart)

 

[EnderLord8]

For someone who made an entire CRT explaining how 90% of Undertale's calculations were incorrect, you've been using a lot of shortcuts in your calculations.

 

[StrymULTRA]

There's so much stuff going on I barely get what's happening smh

 

[Rodriiogo]

So you did know that they are not identical, and just added a bit of lenght to smaller one to compensate? Instead of you know, using more reliable calcs? We don't need to be sloppy like this at all

No. It's called "that's how arms work". This is not sloppy.

This is the last straw. Stop making obviously false claims. I didn't say that they can manipulate their size. I said that when dealing with small objects and sprites, devs are routinely forced to sacrifice size accuracy.
If you are so insistent on using Napstablook eyes, I added them to my calc compilation.

You said his eyes could be bigger that's just a lie. And I don't know WHY you keep adding calculations when I already explained to you why one is more consistent than the other and showed you reasoning and multiple showings of why.

I don't see any notes in the overworld.

1. It's in the OP.
2. They come from her mouth vertically, they need to be vertically smaller than her mouth. She shoots them when her mouth is like :O.

"They are around the same size so it's better to say the same"
No, it's sloppy, stop doing this

What the hell man. Why would the core's ACTUAL SIZE change when he enters a battle?????
How is that sloppy???? Is it sloppy to assume that Mettaton does not have size manipulation on his own core???

Look at your measurements. Your hand measurement includes not only palm, but also distance between 4 fingers and thumb fingers, which doesn't exists. Added it to my calc compilation.

Yea, my calcs includes that because that's the same position your hand will be when you hug someone as that's the overworld comparission?? How do you hug someone? Do you hug them without hand closed??? That's weird

Fine. Since you for some reason think it's valid for scaling sizes, I added this example too.

So, this how this looks like now. 6 methods, including ones you yourself proposed.

First off, the sans, toriel and shyren methods methods are incorrect. Second off, your ruler for pixel scaling the images has to be broken:

Look at me using YOUR IMAGES:

I can do it for others but this should be enough. Fix your pixel scaling, it IS 15cm.

What do you have against it, if we subtract ones where:
a) you know that comparison is wrong(Aaron)
b) just eyeballed stuff, because they look similar(Mettaton heart)

You're incorrect on both. Nothing is wrong and I did not eyeball anything I genuinely don't understand your arguments.

For someone who made an entire CRT explaining how 90% of Undertale's calculations were incorrect, you've been using a lot of shortcuts in your calculations.

I did not, Qurbon is just straight not understanding anything I'm saying and has his pixel scale broken to hell and back.

 

[Rodriiogo]

If you want a TLDR for your "methods": Your pixel-scaling is wrong. If you do it correctly, the results are 15cm regardless. You're proving me right.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, if we wanna go down your route, how can Frisk dodge stuff if the gap between attacks is barely more than 15 cm? I am genuinely curious here as you didn't really answer here.

 

[Rodriiogo]

I mean, if we wanna go down your route, how can Frisk dodge stuff if the gap between attacks is barely more than 15 cm? I am genuinely curious here as you didn't really answer here.

The convo is about what should be the base pixelscaling used to measure attacks in the battle box where it's the SOUL in comparission, not Frisk. There's attacks that even if you wanna say the soul is "50cm" (which I think atp we all agree is just massively inconsistent), Frisk would not be able to fit through:

(This is just SOME of like uncountable examples)
Even if we use a whole meter for the soul, Frisk would not fit through some of those gaps.
Of course we don't know how the actual fight plays out from the physical body perspective, I'm saying that IF someone wants to calculate a batlte boxfeat (I mean the calculation that will carry the verse's scaling right now IS from the battle box and RELIES on the soul's size as the size of the ice depends on the size of the soul), 15cm whould be used for the soul size comparissions. Anything higher is overscaling.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I didn't quite understand, but if the problem is the inconsistency in soul size, why don't you just take Frisk's size (based on her possible age) to figure out the size of the characters (within the battle using the large sprites) and compare their size with their own attacks?

If Frisk can't be used considering the sprite difference between her in gameplay and in battle, as already mentioned, you can figure out Asgore's size from the initial introduction by comparing him to that generic adult human and then, from Asgore, figure out the size of other characters (in the large sprite version).

As Toby himself said, the inconsistent sizes don't make it worthwhile to try and figure out the size by actually analyzing each character sprite pixel by pixel.
Furthermore, I don't think the sprites of the characters outside of battles (their smaller sprites, so to speak) should be used realistically. Because it could be like League of Legends, where characters with extremely different sizes appear similar in size due to gameplay. I think only their in-battle sizes should be used.


Well, that's my opinion on the matter.

 

[Rodriiogo]

I didn't quite understand, but if the problem is the inconsistency in soul size, why don't you just take Frisk's size (based on her possible age) to figure out the size of the characters (within the battle using the large sprites) and compare their size with their own attacks?

If Frisk can't be used considering the sprite difference between her in gameplay and in battle, as already mentioned, you can figure out Asgore's size from the initial introduction by comparing him to that generic adult human and then, from Asgore, figure out the size of other characters (in the large sprite version).

As Toby himself said, the inconsistent sizes don't make it worthwhile to try and figure out the size by actually analyzing each character sprite pixel by pixel.
Furthermore, I don't think the sprites of the characters outside of battles (their smaller sprites, so to speak) should be used realistically. Because it could be like League of Legends, where characters with extremely different sizes appear similar in size due to gameplay. I think only their in-battle sizes should be used.


Well, that's my opinion on the matter.

Around the same size still (used the shoulder width because he always keeps his head down in the fight). I think using the Mettaton method in OP is fine and the most narratively right one because of stuff said, and as you can see in the method you suggested (and other methods shown above), they mostly all give nearly the same result of around the park of 15cm.

15cm is the most consistent size for the soul as I've been saying.

 

[Mommyleona]

I mean, if we wanna go down your route, how can Frisk dodge stuff if the gap between attacks is barely more than 15 cm? I am genuinely curious here as you didn't really answer here.

So should we throw out the battle box scaling then?

 

[Rodriiogo]

Maybe I gotta start adding multiple other images to the OP on how 15cm is consistent with all the other methods cause I swear, 80% of methods that were brought up and shown lead to 15cm (if you pixelscale it correctly)

And even then I still havent gotten a single reason to why using a straight up part of mettaton's story and character (that being that a heart's core that is shown to be the same as the soul LITERALLY FITS in his torso-waist area) as the most consistent showing of the intended size.

 

[Edutyn]

How the hell this thing has 4 pages?

Anyways, following