The nuking of Undertale: Part 1 out of 6 or 7

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Following

 

[Robo432343]

i agree with everything

 

[Rodriiogo]

So for some reason my images don't want to load on anything in this planet so you'll have to trust me (If you don't I'll just reset my PC and do whatever needs to be done I suppose) here but I did a rough calc on the box's measurements. You used 1.37 meters for Frisk's height so I also did just that, and the box's length would be roughly 1.24 meters with it's height being 0.39 meters. Assuming the width is the same as the length (Although could be smaller I suppose), the volume for the box would be 0.599664 m^3. I suppose the box's volume off pixel scaling could fix all that but A) The box's length and width still cannot contain the big bone if the big bone is really 2+ meters and B) I think the issue would be the complete opposite where you see the box actually isn't able to contain every single bone, as some of the bones are actually stacked outside the box itself. One of the bones are literally laying on the cover, and two of the bones are slightly above that. I swear I didn't argue that the soul was too big just to make this correction, I didn't look at the box well enough just noticed that it was really small.

It's way more consistent as I showed. There's a small discrepancy since Toby obviously isn't pixel-scaling everything down to a T. The point being made here is that the 0.15m soul is way more conssitent and logical with what Toby is trying to do regardless. I don't think it's needed to make the soul even smaller just so the big bone could fit imo. It's way more consistentto keep it like that.

Wait why is his core 3X again? Isn't his core actually the one consistent thing in size revolving around his attacks or am I misremembering? I wasn't exactly making a claim tbf I was just wondering why there would be 402 bones and one massive bone and still be contained within a box.

IF the soul is 50cm in width and, during the fight, we see that the core gets out of Mettaton's body and is around the same exact size as the soul, you are indeed saying it got over 3x bigger just for that attack alone. Unless you think Mettaton increases his own size aswell? Are you gonna give them size manipulation.... on themselves? This is stretching stuff.

I was simply giving food for thought on like "Okay what if the attacks aren't literally them doing actions but just their creation magic that creates massive hands and legs", which I think could be fair if the idea of FIGHT being completely canon and they actually fight in a Personal Domain.

This is bordering just personal head-canon at that point I'm sorry if this is rude-
I think this is unsupported and is just giving the monsters abilities/story they don't even have right now. As you're not just claiming they make their magic attacks bigger but also... their own body?

Asgore also has the giant hand thing which is way massive but his spear swings are the same size and don't change which is a fair point to bring up, but Asgore is also an odd exception where besides Sans, Undyne and Flowey/Asriel afaik (OH AND MAD DUMMY!!!!) he actually moves around in combat and is an exception besides Sans and Flowey/Asriel he actually affects the battle mechanics and moves to destroy the FIGHT button. Idk I could be wrong lol sorry if this is yap.

Mettaton's core also gets out of his own body and goes to near the battle box so you can fire at it. We see that happen on screen.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Him being cubical is entirely your headcannon. Fangamer items for Mettaton clearly depict him as rectangular shape, and his Overworld sprite clearly suggest rectangular shape, not cubic one.

That's a nitpick that barely changes the point, do you think Mettaton literally couldn't turn around/move in that hole, do you think he was literally flattened on that hole and being unable to move well?

You are using your powerscaling brain here, that translates things like "many times over" to "3x times bigger". Natural language doesn't work like it. Few inches can mean 5 inches or 4 inches(this objection is obviously redundant if you can't prove that Mettaton is cubical shape in the first place).

The whole point there is a deduction working on approximatives. Of course it isn't bang on we can't do it bang on cause we don't have values nor images for that. You're nitpicking the points alot here.

All of this presentation being fake doesn't mean that Mettaton didn't actually destroy wall. It's only 16 cm wall, it shouldn't be too much of a difficulty to deal with for a futuristic robot that meant for war against humans.

This is you using your scale on the verse to affect your opinions cause "meant for war against humans" yea, even a 9-B Robot could do this. This is largely irrelevant unless you can prove it's the actual wall. Why would Alphys make the hole in the wall, put mettaton inside then instead of I don't know, making her plan even easier and faster, make a wall of the EXACT SAME density, depth, material as the rest of the lab's walls? Why would she need this?

Also, creating fake wall(and demolishing real one) in very short timeframe between first observation of Frisk and their arrival to the Lab would be very difficult task. Alphys is brilliant scientist but she doesn't have any feats that suggests that she would be capable of doing so.

What....? She first sees you in the beginning of snowdin. You go through all of snowdin and waterfall before you even reach her. You think she couldn't make a hole in her own wall even tho she's able to upgrade your phone that didn't even texting to literally containing a dimensional storage in seconds? She was also the one that orchestrated every act, why would she have time to make a whole plan, fake-bombs and a new studio, a whole cooking show, the puzzle tiles game with a button that makes you fall into it etc etc but not make a literal simple hole in the wall lol.

In the little time I have before going to work, what about Omega Flowey's size, btw?

Oh I forgot that we use it for his size well it'd make Omega around 4 meters tall.

About SOUL size. I tried to measure it via different methods. So far my results are such:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Qurbonboev/Measuring_Frisk_and_SOUL_sizes

I would appreciate if someone proposed other methods to do so (preferably when opponents is fully in battlebox). For the record, most consistent estimate is around 30 cm for now.

Addressing elephant in the room(Frisk heightmogging half of the audience in here with their 170.8 cm).
To have anchor for height estimation, we either:
1. Give some educated guess on how old Frisk is, and assume that they are average height for their age. First one is pretty difficult to do, and second one is at best neutral assumption to make.
2. Assume that Human Leader is at least adult(obviously true) and they have average height of adult (you can clearly see in the intro that they have comparable height to other adults here).
It's pretty obvious which method is more reliable. So does anyone have any arguments against second method, which explicitly doesn't rely on incredulity? I think this question is more important overall, so it should be solved first

We already agreed that 137-138cm is fine for Frisk via what Strym sent about heights even fitting directly with the 137 calculation. Don't try to change accepted stuff here aswell Frisk's size would need a whole new thread if you all wanna change it to such an absurd degree.

The reason you are getting higher results than me is that you are literally inflating the height of EVERYTHING in Undertale via a symbolic intro scene with inconsistent silhouettes. Have you taken a look at the monsters behind "Asgore" aswell? How wide do you think someone like Loox is. You'd get 2+ meters Frisk from that aswell. You even used deltarune for one of the methods even though deltarune is a game where the soul as I showed in the OP fits and is basically the same size as Kris's hand. Do you think kris has a 30cm long hand aswell? Are you gonna inflate that.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Before this turns into a debate about Frisk's height I think that'd better to be talked about in a more in-depth thread when someone wants to make all those new "accepted sizes".

The 137cm tall Frisk has been accepted for over a year if not two and has never had any issues with (quite convinent that people only wake up when the verse is about to get nuked), Strym even brought up some studies on average heights (which Frisk just obviously is) and it also gets to around that level (138cm) alongside the fact that 137cm is also the average height for a 10 year old male and 138cm for a female, which makes 137, once again, consistent. I will not be running on Headcanon Number 3 that literally debunks everything else in the story just to buff the verse. Monsters like Papyrus (this is just ONE example of like 10+ I could give) have regular human objects in their room and his height compared to them isn't of a giant so I don't think any of the monsters is "3 METERS TALL" as claims about it are happening right now, you're gonna need alot of mental gymnastics to even convince yourself that that's consistent.

For now focus on why the thread's points, make a height thread if you want and as I said, if you find a more consistent size than the current and it gets accepted I will change it accordingly. This is not it right now, 137cm Frisk and 15cm Soul is still the better option.

 

[Axorandom0]

Do you think kris has a 30cm long hand aswell? Are you gonna inflate that.

Minor detail I feel like I should point out: the game’s art style kinda makes this a realistic possibility. Kris’ head is pretty big compared to an average human head because of it and we literally accept Kris throwing a bottle that’s over a foot tall because of the art style.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Minor detail I feel like I should point out: the game’s art style kinda makes this a realistic possibility. Kris’ head is pretty big compared to an average human head because of it and we literally accept Kris throwing a bottle that’s over a foot tall because of the art style.

The hand being that big very much conflates with our current size for Kris (167.95cm) by making him over 2 meters tall
It also conflates with... logic. Over 4 meters bed? Over a meter PC monitor? Almost 1.3 meters diploma on the wall? (Also how would he type on the PC with those hands, poor guy)

I think it's very clear that the intent isn't that Kris's hand is any bigger than a regular human hand for a high schooler

 

[LaserPrecision]

The hand being that big very much conflates with our current size for Kris (167.95cm) by making him over 2 meters tall
It also conflates with... logic. Over 4 meters bed? Over a meter PC monitor? Almost 1.3 meters diploma on the wall? (Also how would he type on the PC with those hands, poor guy)

I think it's very clear that the intent isn't that Kris's hand is any bigger than a regular human hand for a high schooler

Minor nitpick, but you measured the bed length wrong. You wouldn't measure from the bed post to the bed leg. You would measure from bed post to bed post. The diploma is also measured wrong. The plaque/frame is almost 1.3 meters, the diploma is the paper, and would be a bit smaller.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Oh I forgot that we use it for his size well it'd make Omega around 4 meters tall.

Omega Flowey's screen is shown to be bigger than Frisk in sequence before the fight, so doubt he's getting smaller than he is rn.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Minor nitpick, but you measured the bed length wrong. You wouldn't measure from the bed post to the bed leg. You would measure from bed post to bed post. The diploma is also measured wrong. The plaque/frame is almost 1.3 meters, the diploma is the paper, and would be a bit smaller.

It was kinda rough yea, it was just to show it was absurd regardless

---

Anyways just to put an end to this convo I have done what was suggested about using our accepted Deltarune Kris to get Sans height:

It is indeed around 138cm with Frisk being basically the same height just a bit shorter than Sans:

The 137cm height is indeed completely fine and consistent.

 

[Axorandom0]

The hand being that big very much conflates with our current size for Kris (167.95cm) by making him over 2 meters tall
It also conflates with... logic. Over 4 meters bed? Over a meter PC monitor? Almost 1.3 meters diploma on the wall? (Also how would he type on the PC with those hands, poor guy)

I think it's very clear that the intent isn't that Kris's hand is any bigger than a regular human hand for a high schooler

Using Kris’ actual assumed height to pixel scale the hand, it’s like 9 inches big (which is very big for a hand) and you didn’t address the other points I made either about their head or the bottle. The art style is weird!!!

 

[Rodriiogo]

Omega Flowey's screen is shown to be bigger than Frisk in sequence before the fight, so doubt he's getting smaller than he is rn.

I think using the overworld sequence is better for that then yes.

 

[Qurbonboev]

That's a nitpick that barely changes the point, do you think Mettaton literally couldn't turn around/move in that hole, do you think he was literally flattened on that hole and being unable to move well?

Nah, few feets are more than enough for him to sit comfortably

Why would Alphys make the hole in the wall, put mettaton inside then instead of I don't know, making her plan even easier and faster, make a wall of the EXACT SAME density, depth, material as the rest of the lab's walls?

What are you on? We assume that wall that was busted had same material(steel) and depth(6 inches) as other walls in the lab

We already agreed that 137-138cm is fine for Frisk via what Strym sent about heights even fitting directly with the 137 calculation. Don't try to change accepted stuff here aswell Frisk's size would need a whole new thread if you all wanna change it to such an absurd degree.

Ok. If I try to change height I would try it another time, instead of clogging things here.

The reason you are getting higher results than me is that you are literally inflating the height of EVERYTHING in Undertale via a symbolic intro scene with inconsistent silhouettes

Nah, calc gives me ratio of 17.31% for SOUL width/ Frisk height, so with 137 cm height for Frisk, calcing SOUL width via three different methods(Asgore height and Sans & Mettaton head) gets me around 23.72 cm.
And I would need actual calcs from you to convince me otherwise.

And also, let's forget about Deltarune stuff for a moment

 

[StrymULTRA]

We already agreed that 137-138cm is fine for Frisk via what Strym sent about heights even fitting directly with the 137 calculation. Don't try to change accepted stuff here aswell Frisk's size would need a whole new thread if you all wanna change it to such an absurd degree.

You're the one who wanted to change the SOUL size, no? Why are you allowed to downgrade sizes to almost x5 less the current one, but @Qurbonboev not?

This is pretty much just trying to gatekeep argument leaning to a certain direction and it's just dishonest.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Nah, few feets are more than enough for him to sit comfortably

If the wall is thin yes maybe.

What are you on? We assume that wall that was busted had same material(steel) and depth(6 inches) as other walls in the lab

Yea and that's wrong. That's the point of the thread. Re-read.

Nah, calc gives me ratio of 17.31% for SOUL width/ Frisk height, so with 137 cm height for Frisk, calcing SOUL width via three different methods(Asgore height and Sans & Mettaton head) gets me around 23.72 cm.
And I would need actual calcs from you to convince me otherwise.

I explained why I used the overworld mettaton px scale in the OP and why it is the best way of doing it from the story-standpoint as it's the only object that is consistently shown to be the soul's size and we see it compared to the actual monsters in the overworld (which isnt inconsistent like battle box)

You're the one who wanted to change the SOUL size, no? Why are you allowed to downgrade sizes to almost x5 less the current one, but @Qurbonboev not?

The "change" is just a change on what's being used to pixel scale the soul. Frisk's height is a factor that is completely different as it has been the standard for years. The current standard IS 137cm Frisk. (Which btw, for the sake of the argument regardless, I already elaborated on why it's the most consistent way above, and even made the Kris pixel scaling idea to prove it's even more consistent). Modifying this would derail the thread over it's actual point (soul isn't like almost half of Frisk lmao) and would touch on way more than just the calculations at hand here.

A way longer and revised thread would be needed to change such a thing to absurd levels, not just comments on a thread unrelated to it. Not denying you can't go ahead and make stuff on why the height should be changed (even tho I completely disagree it should be anything other than 137 - 138) but doing it here like this isn't the way.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The "change" is just a change on what's being used to pixel scale the soul. Frisk's height is a factor that is completely different as it has been the standard for years. The current standard IS 137cm Frisk. (Which btw, for the sake of the argument regardless, I already elaborated on why it's the most consistent way above, and even made the Kris pixel scaling idea to prove it's even more consistent). Modifying this would derail the thread over it's actual point (soul isn't like half of Frisk) and would touch on way more than just the calculations at hand here.

A way longer and revised thread would be needed to change such a thing to absurd levels, not just comments on a thread unrelated to it. Not denying you can't go ahead and make stuff on why the height should be changed (even tho I completely disagree it should be anything other than 137 - 138) but doing it here like this isn't the way.

And who are you to claim that we can't? The discussion is highly relevant to the topic given that we're talking about the values the characters scale to right now. If we're debating numbers, we debate numbers, no exceptions.

Like I don't even agree with the idea that Frisk is as tall as a ******* adult man, but you're just shutting away arguments to get alternatives to get another SOUL size.

Also, isn't the current SOUL size supported by the cutscenes of Asgore in the barrier (when he shows the SOULs in the jars) or the whole Omega Flowey segment as his proportions don't change when Frisk switched to the "SOUL mode"? Just asking about these.

 

[Rodriiogo]

And who are you to claim that we can't? The discussion is highly relevant to the topic given that we're talking about the values the characters scale to right now. If we're debating numbers, we debate numbers, no exceptions.

Quoting myself:

Modifying this would derail the thread over it's actual point (soul isn't like almost half of Frisk lmao) and would touch on way more than just the calculations at hand here.

A way longer and revised thread would be needed to change such a thing to absurd levels, not just comments on a thread unrelated to it.

A new height would indeed change the soul size, I'm not denying that. I'm saying it should be done in a different way than in this thread if people do want that.

Like I don't even agree with the idea that Frisk is as tall as a ******* adult man, but you're just shutting away arguments to get alternatives to get another SOUL size.

Quoting myself:

I already elaborated on why it's the most consistent way above, and even made the Kris pixel scaling idea to prove it's even more consistent

Not denying you can't go ahead and make stuff on why the height should be changed (even tho I completely disagree it should be anything other than 137 - 138) but doing it here like this isn't the way.

I elaborated on why 137cm is the more consistent way, same with why using the mettaton overworld is way more consistent as well. I'm not denying that someone can go ahead and try to make Frisk taller even if I do disagree with it. so I am obviously not shutting down any arguments here, I did answer them even if I did say that it shouldn't be done here. I didn't fully ignore them.

Also, isn't the current SOUL size supported by the cutscenes of Asgore in the barrier (when he shows the SOULs in the jars) or the whole Omega Flowey segment as his proportions don't change when Frisk switched to the "SOUL mode"? Just asking about these.

I talked and acknowledged those in the OP in the "Important Note, Please read" on Part 3. I agree they make the souls look bigger, it just isn't consistent.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'll tackle that later when I get back to home.

 

[Qurbonboev]

I explained why I used the overworld mettaton px scale in the OP and why it is the best way of doing it from the story-standpoint as it's the only object that is consistently shown to be the soul's size and we see it compared to the actual monsters in the overworld (which isnt inconsistent like battle box)

If you want consistency, you will get your consistency. Thought it would prolly take 2-3 days.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Ngl the more I read the arguments the more I'm siding with OP (sry Undertale fans)

 

[Rodriiogo]

If you want consistency, you will get your consistency. Thought it would prolly take 2-3 days.

It is... already consistent. I don't see why the proposal isn't consistent lol.

 

[Qurbonboev]

It is... already consistent. I don't see why the proposal isn't consistent lol.

It is inconsistent. Mettaton heart visibly gets much bigger when it's sticking out, and visibly gets much smaller(relative to head) after fight is done. Using Mettaton head length would be far more better and consistent option, and would yield 23.63 cm and 23.67 cm in two separate occasions for SOUL width (results are within margin of error).
Overall, based on comparison of same sprites in Overworld and in battlebox, average SOUL width seems to be around 23.7 cm(can't add more pictures right now)

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'll tackle that later when I get back to home.

Reading OP again and holy hell there's a lot.

I'll also ask eventual staff to retract from giving a vote yet, as I definitely am gonna write a counter-arg for all of the "inconsistencies" shown for the SOUL size (it'll be like, long, be warned), just that I definitely cannot write all of that in a single evening, so expect me to give a response this Saturday.

 

[Rodriiogo]

It is inconsistent. Mettaton heart visibly gets much bigger when it's sticking out, and visibly gets much smaller(relative to head) after fight is done.

Uhm... no it doesn't? That's just called perspective Mettaton is in a back scenario, his core gets out of his body and gets to the perspective of the battle so he can attack you. Do you genuinely think Mettaton has size manipulation on HIS OWN CORE?? I ""understand"" trying to argue they can make their magic attacks big, but you are reaching new levels of making stuff up. His core doesn't get bigger, it goes from where he is (more to the back perspective) to forward so it can attack you in the battle box.

Using Mettaton head length would be far more better and consistent option, and would yield 23.63 cm and 23.67 cm in two separate occasions for SOUL width (results are within margin of error).

Uh huh 15cm surely doesn't have consistency with the other examples I said in the op:
(Already explained Papyrus's being consistent above)
Shyren example:

Napstablook example:

Toriel example:

Aaron example:

You should stop nitpicking a single example (where you're still wrong as the core does indeed not get magically bigger and it is indeed 15cm consistently and even if you try to interwine battle sprite and overworld sprite of mettaton it still gives around the 17-18cm for the core I did this before when Eden asked) and look at ALLLL the other points.

Also stop trying to use the battle sprite of the monsters as fake-consistency, they are inconsistent with the actual overworld sprites height, alongside the fact that, again, not the same perspective as the soul.

 

[Saqphire]

Reading OP again and holy hell there's a lot.

I'll also ask eventual staff to retract from giving a vote yet, as I definitely am gonna write a counter-arg for all of the "inconsistencies" shown for the SOUL size (it'll be like, long, be warned), just that I definitely cannot write all of that in a single evening, so expect me to give a response this Saturday.

 

[Thebadtimetrio32]

It's way more consistent as I showed. There's a small discrepancy since Toby obviously isn't pixel-scaling everything down to a T. The point being made here is that the 0.15m soul is way more conssitent and logical with what Toby is trying to do regardless. I don't think it's needed to make the soul even smaller just so the big bone could fit imo. It's way more consistentto keep it like that.

I think even if we ignore pixel scaling entirely, Papyrus' attack is one of if not the only one in the game to completely dwarf the battle box and force it to expand (I guess Sans and Asriel might as well?), so we know it's meant to be extremely large compared to any other bone or attack in the game. I think it would be extremely goofy if such a large attack could be contained within such a small box especially if it can also fix 402 other bones (Which the visual doesn't even look like it can fix 50 or 100 but). I redid the Mettaton leg measurement using 15 centimeters and Mettaton's full leg is still about 2 meters, which is also just inconsistent with the scan that you showed of Mettaton's leg being BARELY taller than Frisk. I wonder if the soul isn't meant to be a specific size and isn't meant to scale, I'm sorta agreeing with you? (Not sarcastic at all I kinda reread what I said and it sounds like that but I haven't gone through Undertale fully in a year I never really thought about the soul stuff)

I just read through the examples you gave a bit above and there is admittedly some consistency with it. I would say that everything (Even potentially my side) works on consistency bias, like we assume Frisk is 1.37 meters on the dot (Which while we have evidence for, the heights can always vary and iirc Frisk doesn't have a confirmed age of 10). Then we assume that the pixel scaling of 15 centimeters is correct through Mettaton's core and since every attack seems to be consistent with 1.37 meter overworld and 0.15 meter soul, the measurements must be correct. I'm sorta confident that if Frisk was say 1.1 meters, or even 1.5 meters everything would still be consistent in the end. I think it's less about what seems visually consistent because I think with how close to attention that Toby is this will be the case, but what inconsistencies get called into question with 1.37 meters and 0.15 meters because then maybe Toby meant to be consistent with a different size.

IF the soul is 50cm in width and, during the fight, we see that the core gets out of Mettaton's body and is around the same exact size as the soul, you are indeed saying it got over 3x bigger just for that attack alone. Unless you think Mettaton increases his own size aswell? Are you gonna give them size manipulation.... on themselves? This is stretching stuff.

Ohhhhh I see. Well TO BE FAIR I never claimed a size for the SOUL so that's why I got a bit confused. I'm just putting into question if 15 centimeters is as valid as the other sizes if it creates similar problems anyway. As Strym mentioned SOUL sizes seem inconsistent anyway if you compare them to Asgore but you also said that you addressed it and I only skimmed so it's whatever. I wouldn't mind using any SOUL size even if they're inconsistent because that's always gonna happen but that means that I can't exactly gatekeep to 15 centimeters with my mental standard in mind because unless it's like 10 centimeters I don't think it's ever gonna be consistent (Unless SOUL sizes in battle kinda just don't matter and Toby didn't think that far ahead)

This is bordering just personal head-canon at that point I'm sorry if this is rude-
I think this is unsupported and is just giving the monsters abilities/story they don't even have right now. As you're not just claiming they make their magic attacks bigger but also... their own body?

Please don't apologize it's fine lol I haven't dived into Undertale seriously for a real long time and when I compared my thoughts to Strym we already had different interpretations on battle mechanics and how things worked in Undertale, if you don't share the interpretation you might see everything surrounding it as head canon which is whatever.
I'm not claiming that their own body is becoming bigger, nor am I claiming their magic attacks are bigger actually. I'm claiming that while it is supposed to be a representation of say Mettaton kicking or Toriel swinging, that's all it is. A representation. Considering the massive amount of evidence suggesting that the fights areas are canon, it's more likely that the hands and legs are actually just attacks created by the monsters, which doesn't inherently mean that they grow either. The specific attacks were always that size, the monsters just have to use and spawn them like any other attack.

Mettaton's core also gets out of his own body and goes to near the battle box so you can fire at it. We see that happen on screen.

Fair, I won't debate about perspective because I don't think it grows, but attacks that are directly shown from animations I think are what doesn't change size because that's actually from the monster physically. Otherwise I would argue that the indirect attacks such as the hands and Mettaton's legs are just magic attacks that monsters can summon.

 

[Rodriiogo]

I think even if we ignore pixel scaling entirely, Papyrus' attack is one of if not the only one in the game to completely dwarf the battle box and force it to expand (I guess Sans and Asriel might as well?), so we know it's meant to be extremely large compared to any other bone or attack in the game. I think it would be extremely goofy if such a large attack could be contained within such a small box especially if it can also fix 402 other bones (Which the visual doesn't even look like it can fix 50 or 100 but).

The 402 other bones cound indeed fit as I showed, the only issue I see here the big bone really which is still more consistent with my end (that is then consistent with the other stuff), as I said in the OP, the 50cm soul end inflated the volume of the bones so much that that amount of small bones could cover papyrus's entire room lol.

I redid the Mettaton leg measurement using 15 centimeters and Mettaton's full leg is still about 2 meters, which is also just inconsistent with the scan that you showed of Mettaton's leg being BARELY taller than Frisk. I wonder if the soul isn't meant to be a specific size and isn't meant to scale, I'm sorta agreeing with you? (Not sarcastic at all I kinda reread what I said and it sounds like that but I haven't gone through Undertale fully in a year I never really thought about the soul stuff)

(If someone doesn't get the third image, if you look at the image of his attacks (first one) he is tippy toeing and stretching his leg so that's why im adding the distance between the center of the shoe and the tip as extra as that's seems to be around the extra length because of it)

Fully streched Legs length in battle: 196.38cm
Fully streched Legs length in overworld: 139.32 + 30.864 = 170.174cm

Is it still slightly off? Yes. But it's slightly consistent compared to the previous 50cm end that claims those legs are almost 7 meters long. This is just a minor discrepancy here, especially since:

Fully streched Foot length in battle: 51.13cm
Fully streched Foot length in overworld: 32.415 + 17.127 = 49.542cm

As you can see his foot length is basically the same. It's just a small discrepancy in length size because, while Toby tries to remain as accurate as he can, he doesn't pixel-scale everything down to the T.

There's no need to fully scrap soul stuff imo. The 15cm length is fine.

Ohhhhh I see. Well TO BE FAIR I never claimed a size for the SOUL so that's why I got a bit confused. I'm just putting into question if 15 centimeters is as valid as the other sizes if it creates similar problems anyway. As Strym mentioned SOUL sizes seem inconsistent anyway if you compare them to Asgore but you also said that you addressed it and I only skimmed so it's whatever. I wouldn't mind using any SOUL size even if they're inconsistent because that's always gonna happen but that means that I can't exactly gatekeep to 15 centimeters with my mental standard in mind because unless it's like 10 centimeters I don't think it's ever gonna be consistent (Unless SOUL sizes in battle kinda just don't matter and Toby didn't think that far ahead)

Well yea there's two inconsistencies in my opinion which is here and here. But I think there's way stronger evidence on the size of 15cm to say that this two scenarios make it more consistent for some reason. Quoting myself:
"The mettaton way is used because it is something that logically has to be that size otherwise it would not fit on mettaton's waist which makes this the most logical and consistent way of doing it especially due to how it's way more consistent with the sizes of everything else said in the thread."

I don't disagree those two scenes I linked still exist, but they are the inconsistent ones, while the 15cm end is way more consistent with everything else.

I'm not claiming that their own body is becoming bigger, nor am I claiming their magic attacks are bigger actually. I'm claiming that while it is supposed to be a representation of say Mettaton kicking or Toriel swinging, that's all it is. A representation. Considering the massive amount of evidence suggesting that the fights areas are canon, it's more likely that the hands and legs are actually just attacks created by the monsters, which doesn't inherently mean that they grow either. The specific attacks were always that size, the monsters just have to use and spawn them like any other attack.

I think this would be fine if we didn't have scenarios where we quite litearlly see the monster attack said battle box and not getting "bigger" or represented differently. Or stuff like Napstablook who's attacks literally come from his EYES, and shyren's come from her MOUTH. They'd have to grow in size for that if we wanna argue anything higher than the surrounds of 15cm.

The reason not ALL of them are like that is because of Undertale's Graphics limitations so Toby had to add some like toriel swinging, aaron flexing, mettaton kicking etc as just sprite attacks instead of making their sprites do the movement.

Fair, I won't debate about perspective because I don't think it grows, but attacks that are directly shown from animations I think are what doesn't change size because that's actually from the monster physically. Otherwise I would argue that the indirect attacks such as the hands and Mettaton's legs are just magic attacks that monsters can summon.

Yea the point is that it doesn't change size, so since core does not change size magically and is the same height as the Frisk, it's either the soul is 15cm tall as proposed or Mettaton somehow just has a fat 50cm hip which would be inconsistent with how hes shown in the overworld (and everywhere really) at that point.

 

[Thebadtimetrio32]

The 402 other bones cound indeed fit as I showed, the only issue I see here the big bone really which is still more consistent with my end (that is then consistent with the other stuff), as I said in the OP, the 50cm soul end inflated the volume of the bones so much that that amount of small bones could cover papyrus's entire room lol.

No ofc I can agree that 402 bones could fit based on the measurements calculated with the soul size in mind. My issue is that it's more consistent but still not quite consistent. Even if you have the idea in mind that the box could fix all 402 bones, it kinda just doesn't. I don't really see the massive bone in the box sticking out or anything, but the bones seems to overlap the box like I mentioned despite the fact that I think the bones should be in there quite nice? I do agree that 50 cm makes the bones completely ridiculous, but 15 centimeters still has a blatant issue and I think other sizes can be accepted and considered.

(If someone doesn't get the third image, if you look at the image of his attacks (first one) he is tippy toeing and stretching his leg so that's why im adding the distance between the center of the shoe and the tip as extra as that's seems to be around the extra length because of it)

Fully streched Legs length in battle: 196.38cm
Fully streched Legs length in overworld: 139.32 + 30.864 = 170.174cm

Is it still slightly off? Yes. But it's slightly consistent compared to the previous 50cm end that claims those legs are almost 7 meters long. This is just a minor discrepancy here, especially since:

Fully streched Foot length in battle: 51.13cm
Fully streched Foot length in overworld: 32.415 + 17.127 = 49.542cm

As you can see his foot length is basically the same. It's just a small discrepancy in length size because, while Toby tries to remain as accurate as he can, he doesn't pixel-scale everything down to the T.

There's no need to fully scrap soul stuff imo. The 15cm length is fine.

Idk if his attack is tip toeing since even in your interpretation I think he's just kicking, but he would be extending his leg albeit Idk how much extra distance that would add nor do I know if the True Pacifist ending cutscene is him extending his legs.

I decided to do a measurement based completely on Mettaton's legs and ignoring his shoe or feet just to be sure. Here's what I got:

Soul: 36 pixels = 15 centimeters

Mettaton's leg: 356.01 pixels = 148.34 centimeters

Mettaton: 90 pixels = 133.51 centimeters

Mettaton's leg: 59.55 pixels = 88.34 centimeters

For the first image, the yellow line is me measuring as short as I think I could before I believed I was going too short. That was 302 pixels or 125.83 centimeters.

Going back to the Mettaton Frisk comparison for a second, I also did a recheck on that and here's what I got:

Frisk: 357.02 pixels = 1.37 meters

Mettaton's leg: 201.04 pixels = 0.77 meters

While varying (Due to pixel scaling never being one to one and one of them clearly showing the legs and the other being an eye ball), in the overworld the legs by themselves are shown to be 0.77 - 0.88 meters however in battle they're around 1.25 to 1.33 meters, maybe a bit lower but you're never getting it below a meter unless you really push how much Mettaton is extending his legs just for a kick.

Something interesting I also discovered is that I also measured the foot stuff myself, and while different numbers the differences were the same I think? Fight I got 48.75 centimeters, True Pacifist Scene I got 37.84 centimeters but when comparing to Frisk I got 45 centimeters? Which is really close to the fight so if you wanted to measure the Frisk comparsion yourself that could be another consistency, but the Mettaton stuff alone holds a good bit of consistencies especially if you don't assume some of the things you did with tip toeing.

Well yea there's two inconsistencies in my opinion which is here and here. But I think there's way stronger evidence on the size of 15cm to say that this two scenarios make it more consistent for some reason. Quoting myself:
"The mettaton way is used because it is something that logically has to be that size otherwise it would not fit on mettaton's waist which makes this the most logical and consistent way of doing it especially due to how it's way more consistent with the sizes of everything else said in the thread."

I don't disagree those two scenes I linked still exist, but they are the inconsistent ones, while the 15cm end is way more consistent with everything else.

You've probably already come with this conclusion but the inconsistency is due to the two scenes you've shown uses the same SOUL sprite used in the battle just recolored, while Mettaton's is a smaller part of his soul and kinda squished down a bit. I can't be crazy for noticing that the SOUL in Mettaton in the fight is bigger in proportion then his sprite even when in his body? It's notably wider which is what we get the 15 centimeter size from. Is the overworld here not the only instance where the SOUL is shown smaller than any other showing? Even within his own boss fight.

I think this would be fine if we didn't have scenarios where we quite litearlly see the monster attack said battle box and not getting "bigger" or represented differently. Or stuff like Napstablook who's attacks literally come from his EYES, and shyren's come from her MOUTH. They'd have to grow in size for that if we wanna argue anything higher than the surrounds of 15cm.

The reason not ALL of them are like that is because of Undertale's Graphics limitations so Toby had to add some like toriel swinging, aaron flexing, mettaton kicking etc as just sprite attacks instead of making their sprites do the movement.

Nastablook attacks from his eyes directly and Shyren attacks from her mouth directly, so similarly to things like Asgore swinging or So Sorry wagging their tail the attacks don't exceed what is possible when considering the size of their eyes. I'm pretty sure it's not possible to attack someone with raw flexing, so Aaron's moves become more unique when his arms float down while flexing and doesn't Mettaton sometimes drop two legs at the same time? Does this mean he's literally launching down with both legs to attack Frisk in those moments? And they can be stopped and moved with Frisk's yellow shot only shown and used in the battle box styled combat right? Toriel's attack is the only one where I don't think it has any inconsistencies with being an attack she does recontextualized, but I don't know if Aaron and Mettaton work like that at a glance. Especially with the knowledge that the battles most likely literally talk place within a battle box-este combat system.

Yea the point is that it doesn't change size, so since core does not change size magically and is the same height as the Frisk, it's either the soul is 15cm tall as proposed or Mettaton somehow just has a fat 50cm hip which would be inconsistent with how hes shown in the overworld (and everywhere really) at that point.

Atp I think the sprite is just inconsistent especially since I think it's the only soul sprite just like it compared to all of the other SOULs in game. I would propose to A) Yeah definitely change it away from 50 centimeters that is wayyyy too big and B) If the soul isn't 15 centimeters you COULD potentially get a higher Frisk height from using that Mettaton sprite and compare it to Frisk Undertale. 1.37 meters runs on a bunch of assumptions on Frisk's age and if they're really the average height of their age that is also assumed for them. Actually, can't you grab Kris' height of 1.6795 meters, compare theirs to Sans and then compare Sans' to Frisk's considering Sans is actually the only character who stays 1 to 1? Kris' Soul Height is also like 0.26872 meters tall, so to be honest this might not be a bad idea, I'm just too lazy to do so rn

 

[Qurbonboev]

If the wall is thin

Wall is 6 inches deep, it's thin enough.

Your reasoning for wall being fake is valid enough. Alphys is fast enough to make prop walls, to create fake drama and obstacles in our way. But:
Alphys might work fast, but she doesn't have control over cutscenes (unlike old Royal Scientist, W. D. Gaster). Cutscene does heavily imply that this was actually strong strike, that created real destruction.
Toby words about it being fake first and foremost means that "Mettaton is secretly working with Alphys", but not automatically "Mettaton actually didn't bust steel wall".

Oh also, about Bomb feat from stream anniversary. Most logical and easy explanation for tree disappearance is that it was destroyed by bomb, not that it was removed from field by Mettaton(for what reasons?). Why didn't it create crater?: Right below it was Frisk, that would have absorbed most of the impact, that was directed to the ground.

 

[Thebadtimetrio32]

Your reasoning for wall being fake is valid enough. Alphys is fast enough to make prop walls, to create fake drama and obstacles in our way. But:
Alphys might work fast, but she doesn't have control over cutscenes (unlike old Royal Scientist, W. D. Gaster). Cutscene does heavily imply that this was actually strong strike, that created real destruction.
Toby words about it being fake first and foremost means that "Mettaton is secretly working with Alphys", but not automatically "Mettaton actually didn't bust steel wall".

I guess you could say that the strike was faked to make it sound exaggerated. I mean, the sound for the final hit was a SLASH that lead to Mettaton "bursting" through the wall and making a flashy entrance. You had the multiple wall slams into a random slash that didn't make everything rumble like the other hits did. The only thing I would question is why is it faked? Mettaton crashing through a wall is threatening but it's not harming Frisk I assume. If Alphy's motive is to make it seem as threatening as possible to make herself seem like the good guy, wouldn't Mettaton destroying a metal wall be the way to do so? It shows off Mettaton's full power without harming Frisk in any way. Also kinda weird that a specific part of Alphys' wall is fake unless it's all faked.

Oh also, about Bomb feat from stream anniversary. Most logical and easy explanation for tree disappearance is that it was destroyed by bomb, not that it was removed from field by Mettaton(for what reasons?). Why didn't it create crater?: Right below it was Frisk, that would have absorbed most of the impact, that was directed to the ground.

Can't the tree just be a prop to destroy a tree used to use as little force as possible to not harm Frisk? I thought this was the argument, I don't know why Mettaton would just remove the tree that's a bit weird.

 

[Qurbonboev]

I guess you could say that the strike was faked to make it sound exaggerated. I mean, the sound for the final hit was a SLASH that lead to Mettaton "bursting" through the wall and making a flashy entrance. You had the multiple wall slams into a random slash that didn't make everything rumble like the other hits did

In last CRT about strikes it was decided that either 1) normal strikes were much weaker than final strike 2) they were targeting other parts of the lab. Since strikes were actually powerful (they caused shaking of giant structure, its power is not fully calced yet, but it would be more than enough to damage metal walls, let alone fake one). So it's likely Mettaton was targeting other walls in the lab(which OP does think are metal).

Can't the tree just be a prop to destroy a tree used to use as little force as possible to not harm Frisk? I thought this was the argument, I don't know why Mettaton would just remove the tree that's a bit weird.

1. That tree was burning, and it could be touched by Frisk, who would instantly feel something wrong if tree was made from anything other than wood. It kinda severely limits list of possible material this tree could be made of.
2. Imagine if bomb blows out right in front of you, does no harm to you but destroy tree that was pretty far from you. Wouldn't it instantly make you suspicious about whole thing?
Bomb should be strong enough to induce at least some pain to Frisk to make it believable. Its just bomb strong enough to flinch Frisk, would pulverize tree nearby

 

[Thebadtimetrio32]

In last CRT about strikes it was decided that either 1) normal strikes were much weaker than final strike 2) they were targeting other parts of the lab. Since strikes were actually powerful (they caused shaking of giant structure, its power is not fully calced yet, but it would be more than enough to damage metal walls, let alone fake one). So it's likely Mettaton was targeting other walls in the lab(which OP does think are metal).

I guess I would probably have to revise this myself but why would the normal strikes be weaker than the final strike? I could probably agree that the wall shatter took only one strike, but if Mettaton was hitting a metal wall completely separate from that, why would him going through the one stronger especially if it didn't cause any rumbles or make a metal sound, rather than being a slash sound that didn't do much but apparently dust up the entire room? (The white into Mettaton's intro could've been special effect idk what that would be). I think the final hit being weaker would also be more apparent if the entire thing was fake just to make a flashy intro, but I have no opinion on if it was actually fake or not I'm playing semi Devils Advocate for OP.

Went back to the 10th anniversary stream just to look at the tree thing but got flash banged by the wall context. Toby says specifically "*the fact that the hole is only a few feet deep in the first hint that all of this is fake", it's specifically referring to the measurements of the wall and how it seems really small probably because it was propped up for the bit. If the fake is shown through the wall being really small, I think it leads more to the feat being faked than it referring to the scenario generally.

1. That tree was burning, and it could be touched by Frisk, who would instantly feel something wrong if tree was made from anything other than wood. It kinda severely limits list of possible material this tree could be made of.
2. Imagine if bomb blows out right in front of you, does no harm to you but destroy tree that was pretty far from you. Wouldn't it instantly make you suspicious about whole thing?
Bomb should be strong enough to induce at least some pain to Frisk to make it believable. Its just bomb strong enough to flinch Frisk, would pulverize tree nearby

I might be wrong but Frisk is never able to touch the tree because Mettaton blows it up before you're able to properly explore the area? I don't think you have time to react to the Tree exploding because somehow after the explosion happens 6 items spawn out of nowhere and Mettaton is threatening you with an even bigger explosion. I would be surprised if I lived an explosion that pulverized a propped tree too, but I think you just had little time to react and you weren't able to inspect the tree before the bomb blows up above you.

 

[Qurbonboev]

I guess I would probably have to revise this myself but why would the normal strikes be weaker than the final strike?

If all strikes were directed at that wall, normal strikes would need to be massively weaker than final one. Otherwise we have situation where final strike pulverised wall, but normal strike didn't even fragmented wall.
Obviously if you don't think they that were targeting same place, this requirements doesn't exists.
About scenario being fake. Likely interpretation is that Toby is saying that Mettaton and Alphys were cooperating from the start, but it doesn't imply that wall itself was fake.
Prop wall that was pulverised looks very different from steel wall that was pulverised. Frisk obviously would notice the difference.

I might be wrong but Frisk is never able to touch the tree because Mettaton blows it up before you're able to properly explore the area? I don't think you have time to react to the Tree exploding because somehow after the explosion happens 6 items spawn out of nowhere and Mettaton is threatening you with an even bigger explosion. I would be surprised if I lived an explosion that pulverized a propped tree too, but I think you just had little time to react and you weren't able to inspect the tree before the bomb blows up above you.

There were considerable amount of time before Frisk being able to see Tree and explosion occuring. More than enough to sniff the strange things.
Most props are made of things, that are either don't burn, or burn with release of many unfortunate products(toxic chemical products, heavy amounts of black smoke). And whole tree is afaik reference to some vn

 

[Thebadtimetrio32]

If all strikes were directed at that wall, normal strikes would need to be massively weaker than final one. Otherwise we have situation where final strike pulverised wall, but normal strike didn't even fragmented wall.
Obviously if you don't think they that were targeting same place, this requirements doesn't exists.
About scenario being fake. Likely interpretation is that Toby is saying that Mettaton and Alphys were cooperating from the start, but it doesn't imply that wall itself was fake.
Prop wall that was pulverised looks very different from steel wall that was pulverised. Frisk obviously would notice the difference.

I never said it was all one wall tbf. My point was it hit a separate wall 7 times, caused rumbles each time and then hit the one wall with a slash sound while not causing much of a rumble. I agree that the last hit was at a separate surface than the 7 strikes, but at that point I think there’s no telling if the last strike was stronger.
Toby is hinting that Alphys and Mettaton were working together at the start, however the way I see it is that the reason why that scene is a hint to that is because it’s too small to be a regular wall. Hypothetically since it would be a prop wall, it sets up the suspicion that everything else might be faked or propped because the wall was the start of it all. Idk what would be suspicious or notable about the wall being small or fake if it wasn’t meant to be fake and just for fancy entrances.
It’s kinda hard to put a difference in 16 bit gameplay, but the thing I would add is that according to Toby, that one line of dialogue the narrator has is a hint that Alphys and Mettaton are working together and that everything might be staged, so The Narrator (and by extension Frisk), has judged that this wall isn’t real.

There were considerable amount of time before Frisk being able to see Tree and explosion occuring. More than enough to sniff the strange things.
Most props are made of things, that are either don't burn, or burn with release of many unfortunate products(toxic chemical products, heavy amounts of black smoke). And whole tree is afaik reference to some vn

I don’t think so. The second you get somewhat close to the tree the cutscene plays where Mettaton pops out and confesses to you (his want of blowing you tf up), before he gives you a letter and does just that. Frisk at a distance doesn’t have enough time or the method to see that the tree is a prop, and even if they did idk if the narrator would ever mention it over Mettaton’s dialogue or you trying to prevent the bombs right after. Undertale is a game where Frisk’s reactions to stuff is a minimum unless they have time to respond because it’s the narrator who shares their concerns, but when Mettaton is yap yap yapping and giving you gifts, the narrator kinda has no space to give a response.
We don’t know what Mettaton made to prop it so “most things” is a valid argument but not an end all be all. Mettaton probably set the thing on fire with a lighter or something of the sort, and if you could find the VN and reference it that would be good evidence.

 

[Qurbonboev]

The second you get somewhat close to the tree the cutscene plays where Mettaton pops out and confesses to you (his want of blowing you tf up)

Look at that scene again. After Frisk came near it WE can see it. But Frisk themselves can see it clearly from the moment they come out of the school.
WE can't see Frisk reaction, but they actually do have them(for example we can't see Frisk talking with Asriel, but they talked with him). And ultimately this whole scene is intended for Frisk, not the Player(Alphys is not Gaster, remember).

My point was it hit a separate wall 7 times, caused rumbles each time and then hit the one wall with a slash sound while not causing much of a rumble

Whether something causes rumble is not just question of strength, but also how is applied.
Besides, I can agree with normal strikes being stronger than final one with ease. My argument is that game presents final strike as something strong, not Mettaton just punching some fake prop wall.

Toby is hinting that Alphys and Mettaton were working together at the start, however the way I see it is that the reason why that scene is a hint to that is because it’s too small to be a regular wall.

Walls inside lab are 6 inches deep (we can see then). Same assumed for wall that Mettaton destroyed. And I would hardly call 6 inches a thick wall.
That statement hints that Mettaton was placed inside beforehand by Alphys, which I tentatively agree with. But if Alphys wanted to actually show Mettaton as strong, she would have need to create steel wall again instead of putting prop wall. Otherwise Frisk would have noticed difference (pulverising prop wall differs from pulverising metal wall) and show would be ineffective

 

[Thebadtimetrio32]

Look at that scene again. After Frisk came near it WE can see it. But Frisk themselves can see it clearly from the moment they come out of the school.
WE can't see Frisk reaction, but they actually do have them(for example we can't see Frisk talking with Asriel, but they talked with him). And ultimately this whole scene is intended for Frisk, not the Player(Alphys is not Gaster, remember).

I suppose so, but Frisk wouldn’t be able to sense the tree is fake from across the room, they would barely be able to getting even closer, but they would need to touch it and inspect it to actually get a general idea on if it’s an actual tree or not. When Frisk gets close enough, they get interrupted by Mettaton and are forced to focus on something else entirely.
And while yes it’s true that just because we don’t see the reactions doesn’t mean they’re made. The key point of the argument is the fact that we don’t see them, and thus the game not making any note of it is irrelevant. We don’t know if Frisk suspects if it’s just a ploy. They could but we’re just not notified by The Narrator if such is the case, so the absence of confusion shouldn’t be a point imo

Whether something causes rumble is not just question of strength, but also how is applied.
Besides, I can agree with normal strikes being stronger than final one with ease. My argument is that game presents final strike as something strong, not Mettaton just punching some fake prop wall.

This is technically true? If I lightly tapped a wall, I would hardly make a sound, and I certainly wouldn’t be causing rumbles that make Frisk and Alphys jump. If I started banging on it with all of my strength, or an impressive amount of strength then I would be making an aggressively loud bang and if I was far beyond Superhuman I would then have people jumping due to my rumbles. Unless Mettaton’s causal knocks are that strong, but I think you would need evidence that he was being causal.
The game presents it as a slash for some reason. Even if the intent was to be a “strong hit”, assuming that it was faked and propped, Mettaton would be going for it to seem like a strong hit, and thus he created such a “bang” and cratered a wall. The intent can be to fake a wall crater.

Walls inside lab are 6 inches deep (we can see then). Same assumed for wall that Mettaton destroyed. And I would hardly call 6 inches a thick wall.
That statement hints that Mettaton was placed inside beforehand by Alphys, which I tentatively agree with. But if Alphys wanted to actually show Mettaton as strong, she would have need to create steel wall again instead of putting prop wall. Otherwise Frisk would have noticed difference (pulverising prop wall differs from pulverising metal wall) and show would be ineffective

The general wall is 6 inches yeah, but it’s noted that the wall specifically is a few feet deep. Assuming few is meant to be different from “couple”, the wall should be only 36 inches deep. Apparently according to Toby this is way too small. The fact that the wall is too small specifically here puts into question what else is fake, especially when you still get a different sound effect when you hit this wall specifically.
How different would it be here? All Mettaton did was seemingly ram into the wall and create a massive hole. How was it supposed to look to show that it was a prop?

 

[Qurbonboev]

And while yes it’s true that just because we don’t see the reactions doesn’t mean they’re made. The key point of the argument is the fact that we don’t see them, and thus the game not making any note of it is irrelevant. We don’t know if Frisk suspects if it’s just a ploy. They could but we’re just not notified by The Narrator if such is the case, so the absence of confusion shouldn’t be a point imo

1. Since Mettaton and Alphys continue to make drama for a long time, it seems that Frisk was fooled for at least some time.
2. Mettaton and Alphys would naturally try their best to fool Frisk. And best way of making impression of burning tree is to either use actual tree or use wood as prop material. Etc.

Snip

Again, how strength is applied would result in different effect on environment. Strong slash attack wouldn't result in rumble unlike strong blunt attack, etc..

The general wall is 6 inches yeah, but it’s noted that the wall specifically is a few feet deep.

No, it's space behind the wall that is just few feets

 

[Rodriiogo]

No ofc I can agree that 402 bones could fit based on the measurements calculated with the soul size in mind. My issue is that it's more consistent but still not quite consistent. Even if you have the idea in mind that the box could fix all 402 bones, it kinda just doesn't. I don't really see the massive bone in the box sticking out or anything, but the bones seems to overlap the box like I mentioned despite the fact that I think the bones should be in there quite nice? I do agree that 50 cm makes the bones completely ridiculous, but 15 centimeters still has a blatant issue and I think other sizes can be accepted and considered.

Well if you want the big bone to fit you'd need to make the soul even smaller, I don't think thats necessary. A single small inconvinence like this shouldn't overwrite how 15cm is consistent on literally everything else in my opinion.

Idk if his attack is tip toeing since even in your interpretation I think he's just kicking, but he would be extending his leg albeit Idk how much extra distance that would add nor do I know if the True Pacifist ending cutscene is him extending his legs.

And his attacks should be the full length of his legs so.

I decided to do a measurement based completely on Mettaton's legs and ignoring his shoe or feet just to be sure. Here's what I got:

Soul: 36 pixels = 15 centimeters

Mettaton's leg: 356.01 pixels = 148.34 centimeters

Mettaton: 90 pixels = 133.51 centimeters

Mettaton's leg: 59.55 pixels = 88.34 centimeters

For the first image, the yellow line is me measuring as short as I think I could before I believed I was going too short. That was 302 pixels or 125.83 centimeters.Going back to the Mettaton Frisk comparison for a second, I also did a recheck on that and here's what I got:
Frisk: 357.02 pixels = 1.37 meters

Mettaton's leg: 201.04 pixels = 0.77 meters

While varying (Due to pixel scaling never being one to one and one of them clearly showing the legs and the other being an eye ball), in the overworld the legs by themselves are shown to be 0.77 - 0.88 meters however in battle they're around 1.25 to 1.33 meters, maybe a bit lower but you're never getting it below a meter unless you really push how much Mettaton is extending his legs just for a kick.

I'm confused what you're tryna say here by the way. I already explained why it's consistent enough with my own px scaling, you just made it differently for some reason. And he would be extending the leg the most he can for his kicks.... why wouldn't he? I showed the foot is literally consistent so the foot is the same size, he's just extending his leg more than normal because he's tippy toeing and well.. kicking.

You've probably already come with this conclusion but the inconsistency is due to the two scenes you've shown uses the same SOUL sprite used in the battle just recolored, while Mettaton's is a smaller part of his soul and kinda squished down a bit. I can't be crazy for noticing that the SOUL in Mettaton in the fight is bigger in proportion then his sprite even when in his body? It's notably wider which is what we get the 15 centimeter size from. Is the overworld here not the only instance where the SOUL is shown smaller than any other showing? Even within his own boss fight.

Yea it's because they use the battle soul sprite. And I already used the battle sprite, you get around 17-18cm for the heart core, it's not much of a change, however battle sprites are not THAT usable for main size comparissions so I think the overworld's 15cm takes place over it as they (battle sizes) are inconsistent (look at the asriel intro and compare the sizes between characters there and the overworld and you will be surprised how inconsistent it is)

Nastablook attacks from his eyes directly and Shyren attacks from her mouth directly, so similarly to things like Asgore swinging or So Sorry wagging their tail the attacks don't exceed what is possible when considering the size of their eyes. I'm pretty sure it's not possible to attack someone with raw flexing, so Aaron's moves become more unique when his arms float down while flexing and doesn't Mettaton sometimes drop two legs at the same time? Does this mean he's literally launching down with both legs to attack Frisk in those moments? And they can be stopped and moved with Frisk's yellow shot only shown and used in the battle box styled combat right? Toriel's attack is the only one where I don't think it has any inconsistencies with being an attack she does recontextualized, but I don't know if Aaron and Mettaton work like that at a glance. Especially with the knowledge that the battles most likely literally talk place within a battle box-este combat system.

Yea and if the attacks can't exceed their eyes/mouth they literally can't be "50cm tall" or something crazy like that. I showed in my images answering Qurbon how the 15cm is consistent with their eyes and mouth size. The 50cm way isn't... at all.
Aaron's flexing attacks are a representation of you both having a flexing competition.
And Mettaton's is literally just him kicking yes. There's no issue with it All you're mentioning is game mechanics imo.

Atp I think the sprite is just inconsistent especially since I think it's the only soul sprite just like it compared to all of the other SOULs in game. I would propose to A) Yeah definitely change it away from 50 centimeters that is wayyyy too big and B) If the soul isn't 15 centimeters you COULD potentially get a higher Frisk height from using that Mettaton sprite and compare it to Frisk Undertale. 1.37 meters runs on a bunch of assumptions on Frisk's age and if they're really the average height of their age that is also assumed for them. Actually, can't you grab Kris' height of 1.6795 meters, compare theirs to Sans and then compare Sans' to Frisk's considering Sans is actually the only character who stays 1 to 1? Kris' Soul Height is also like 0.26872 meters tall, so to be honest this might not be a bad idea, I'm just too lazy to do so rn

I already did the Kris idea:

Anyways just to put an end to this convo I have done what was suggested about using our accepted Deltarune Kris to get Sans height:

It is indeed around 138cm with Frisk being basically the same height just a bit shorter than Sans:

The 137cm height is indeed completely fine and consistent.

The height for frisk basically doesn't change.
And Kris's soul is also quite inconsistent. The soul is somehow bigger the second time he removes it than in the first lol. I still stand by the fact that the Mettaton's is the most consistent since it's something that ltierally HAS to fit on his waist.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Wall is 6 inches deep, it's thin enough.

Assumption that Alphys for some reason created the fake wall of the same depth? Also you don't think "6 inches" is already a "few inches"? Where would mettaton fit?

Your reasoning for wall being fake is valid enough. Alphys is fast enough to make prop walls, to create fake drama and obstacles in our way. But:
Alphys might work fast, but she doesn't have control over cutscenes (unlike old Royal Scientist, W. D. Gaster). Cutscene does heavily imply that this was actually strong strike, that created real destruction.
Toby words about it being fake first and foremost means that "Mettaton is secretly working with Alphys", but not automatically "Mettaton actually didn't bust steel wall".

Nothing in the cutscene implies that?? Did mettaton transforming into EX also make a "strong strike that created real destruction"? Cause it does the same exact thing as the wall bust. Did the oven overheating also make a "strong strike that created real destruction"? Cause it does the same exact thing as the wall bust. Was your 1 DAMAGE FAKE ATTACK ON UNDYNE a "strong strike that created real destruction"? Cause it does the same exact thing as the wall bust.

In all situations there's 0 destruction and one of them was a literally light tap. This doesn't really work.

Oh also, about Bomb feat from stream anniversary. Most logical and easy explanation for tree disappearance is that it was destroyed by bomb, not that it was removed from field by Mettaton(for what reasons?). Why didn't it create crater?: Right below it was Frisk, that would have absorbed most of the impact, that was directed to the ground.

First off, that is NOT the most logical explanation, as I already explained, the props and everything staged appears when the tree "disappears", it's all an act to immerse you into the scene. The tree was indeed also a prop logically.
Let's put into perspective that your most "logical and easy explanation" is that Mettaton who says Frisk was never in any danger in any of the trials, exploded a 1/10 TON BOMB on their head, even tho we literally see they do create fake bombs for the rest of the trial.

Second off, Frisk is not the fattest person of all time, if the explosion expanded enough to reach the tree, it would have also reached the ground of the tree, I mean, the calc itself makes the bottomest part of the tree also get pulverized. The ground would indeed be damaged if it was a real bomb.

 

[Rodriiogo]

I saw people liking this so let me answer this one alone aswell lol

In last CRT about strikes it was decided that either 1) normal strikes were much weaker than final strike 2) they were targeting other parts of the lab. Since strikes were actually powerful (they caused shaking of giant structure, its power is not fully calced yet, but it would be more than enough to damage metal walls, let alone fake one). So it's likely Mettaton was targeting other walls in the lab(which OP does think are metal).

I agree with the wall stuff obviously but I wanna quickly point out that I think the shaking doesn't work after I checked some stuff and rules with CGMs and some other people especially not like how you said. But that's a discussion for another thread.

1. That tree was burning, and it could be touched by Frisk, who would instantly feel something wrong if tree was made from anything other than wood. It kinda severely limits list of possible material this tree could be made of.

How do you know what Frisk is thinking? Do you think Frisk didn't feel something was wrong when they were struggling to even come up to an excuse to why the obviously fake bombs didn't explode? Also Frisk is a literal child that is being tricked by a giant scientist. I don't know where this random "Frisk would immediatly realise material composition" as a child came from aswell? And the fact you think the genius Alphys that somehow upgrades a phone from not even having text to containing a connection to a dimensional storage in seconds as I said, couldn't make props that could trick a child is baffling to me.

2. Imagine if bomb blows out right in front of you, does no harm to you but destroy tree that was pretty far from you. Wouldn't it instantly make you suspicious about whole thing?
Bomb should be strong enough to induce at least some pain to Frisk to make it believable. Its just bomb strong enough to flinch Frisk, would pulverize tree nearby

1. Again, Frisk is a child
2. They would also look around and see that now they have random bombs created after the "bomb exploded" I think they can do 2+2 and realise it was a trick to get them into another trial/challenge? And even if they couldn't, again, refer to point number 1.

Armor also suggested using a small PSI for the bomb instead so it could trick Frisk which, sure, I'm fine with it, but the tree being pulverized is just making up feats.