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Think it's probably a simple F = MA calculation
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Fire Emblem Discussion thread: New Forum, New Mystery of the Emblem
- Thread starter SuperKamiNappa
- Start date
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Oh, you're right. I don't know why I was complicating it in my head.
So, how fast does something have to move to ignite the ground?
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Also I just calced Flavia intercepting an executionner and got Class M result which would not only upgrade the awakening cast but also the fate one and the Divine Dragon tier characters.
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While we're discussing upgrades...
1. Do the black holes from Apocalypse and Ereshkigal count as proper black holes? Based on the chart on vsbw, black holes of this size would easily be Large Planet level
2. I recently learned that in Niime and Raigh's support, Niime mentions that misuse of dark magic can tilt the planet. I've seen conflicting reports on how this would be calc'd, but based on what I've seen, it could range from Multi Cont to Planet level even for just tilting the planet 1 degree off its axis, depending on how long it takes to do so. (Could also set precedent for the interpretation that the Ending Winter in FE6 was the result of the planet flipping on its axis rather than a neuclear winter, but maybe I'm reaching on that)
Both of these would be massive upgrades for the Elibe games
1. Do the black holes from Apocalypse and Ereshkigal count as proper black holes? Based on the chart on vsbw, black holes of this size would easily be Large Planet level
2. I recently learned that in Niime and Raigh's support, Niime mentions that misuse of dark magic can tilt the planet. I've seen conflicting reports on how this would be calc'd, but based on what I've seen, it could range from Multi Cont to Planet level even for just tilting the planet 1 degree off its axis, depending on how long it takes to do so. (Could also set precedent for the interpretation that the Ending Winter in FE6 was the result of the planet flipping on its axis rather than a neuclear winter, but maybe I'm reaching on that)
Both of these would be massive upgrades for the Elibe games
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As far as I know, nothing actually calls them Black Holes and I think the statement was viewed as contentious on its own without actual Dark Magic feats or users showing anything on that level. Also, I believe Anankos from Fates had a bigger black hole feat, and it was calculated at City Level.
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Do we need statements about the black holes for it to count? These spells don't have in game descriptions at all, so there's no evidence one way or the other on that. That's why I'm asking based on how it's presented.
And if they do count, that establishes precident for dark magic to have that level of power, which removes some of the doubt on Niime's statement
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Official Guides and supplementary material sometimes yield descriptions and yea you'd need solid justification that they're black holes.
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Does the Anankos one have that?
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Also, unless I'm misreading, the reason the Anankos feat is only City level is because they're calcing the destruction of the floating islands, not the creation of the black hole itself
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Yea, things can't be treated as real black holes without a statement or proof.
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Yeah I'm ngl the idea of both of these things being relegated to "not enough evidence" territory is very frustrating. I know that joint is a black hole, I just can't prove it because IS never technically called it one.
The Niime statement being contentious confuses me as well. If dark magic can open up interdimensional portals even without a divine weapon (FE7 Dragon's Gate), then I think it tilting the planet isn't that surprising
The Niime statement being contentious confuses me as well. If dark magic can open up interdimensional portals even without a divine weapon (FE7 Dragon's Gate), then I think it tilting the planet isn't that surprising
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DarkDragonMedeus said that with current standards of black hole feats calculation, Anankos's black hole would reach Large Planet level, since that's the level that the creation of even 1 meter radius black holes would reach. Even 8 mm radius black holes already reach the mass of Earth
EDIT: Although I haven't been able to find evidence that Anankos's feat is an actual black hole so uh, idk
I can't speak for Apocalypse, but the novelization only describes Ereshkigal as a mass of darkness
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Yeah
And didn't debate whether or not the black holes were real; and more likely we need far more proof. But if they qualified, 5-A would basically be more than qualified given the chart.
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What was your stance on the Niime statement?, You talked about it forever ago, and I recall it couldn't be used on its own.
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Personally, I feel as if it is speculation rather than it being a confirmation of any regular tier characters. Some have wondered if it would scale to Bramimond, Athos, Nergal, Divine Weapons, or the Binding Blade, which I could sort of see merit. Niime was still ultimately hypothesizing on "Possibilities are endless" thing and implied not even the Divine Weapons demonstrated the upper limits of what Dark Magic could do.
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I can't say I agree with that interpretation, since it definitely comes across more as a warning rather than speculation in context, but agree to disagree on that front.
Last question for Elibe, why don't we have an accepted calc for the Ending Winter? I've seen it calc'd to multi cont based on the interpretation that it caused a neuclear winter, which seems to be the prevailing theory
Last question for Elibe, why don't we have an accepted calc for the Ending Winter? I've seen it calc'd to multi cont based on the interpretation that it caused a neuclear winter, which seems to be the prevailing theory
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We do have a calc but it was removed on the argument that nobody scale to it.
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That seems kind of silly. You could easily get a range for how strong the divine weapons are in present day based on that calc by just dividing the output between the 9 weapons and then taking a percentage of that, I'd say 1% for an extreme low end and 50% for an extreme high end
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Unless I'm misunderstanding here, his argument is that the divine weapons don't scale to the Ending Winter by the events of the game. At which point I would reiterate, you could still easily get a range of possible values for how strong they are now by taking a percentage of their individual AP in the Ending Winter. Setting them to unknown doesn't make sense to me.
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Basically, it was treated as a Unity based power enhancement feat combined with it being Environmental Destruction. I know lots of people question the latter due to Aegir/Quintessence being a UES, but the former is still a valid concern. Not mention half the feat was caused by giant wave of Fire Dragons; and it was a weakness that effected the dragons far more than it effected humans. There are also details where the feat could be higher, it mainly calculated the "Summer became Winter" parts but "Day became Night" might be Moon level territory minimum.
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I don't know what you mean by Unity (I'm new to this), but idk if I'd call it a non applicable environmental destruction feat. It's not like the divine weapons or the dragons have a power specifically used to create snowstorms or change day to night . It was simply the result of an excessive release of magic energy affecting the planet at large. Also, if the dragons did half the work, you could just... divide it again?
And yeah ik about the potential high ends for the feat. Based on the calcs I've done, a full planet flip interpretation could get up to 5-A, translating to low 5-B for the divine weapons in the present day
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question
Valentia Accordion explains that Ragnarok is a spell that was given to Zofia (character) by Mila herself, and the book mirrors this with how Duma gave the Falchion to Rigel (character), so that they could both fight a pirate nation. Should this scale Ragnarok users to Divine Dragon tier?
Valentia Accordion explains that Ragnarok is a spell that was given to Zofia (character) by Mila herself, and the book mirrors this with how Duma gave the Falchion to Rigel (character), so that they could both fight a pirate nation. Should this scale Ragnarok users to Divine Dragon tier?
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After rereading the downgrade thread, one key point against the Ending Winter being an applicable feat is the fact that its effect on the dragons was unexplained. I think I might have found an explanation. From Fire Emblem wiki: "The Ending Winter sapped much of the potential magic energy out of the universe, and both dragons and the legendary weapons lost much of their power as a result. This made the dragonkin unable to maintain their massive forms for long periods of time, forcing them to seal their power in dragonstones and become manatekes." The Ending Winter's effects on nature weren't reality warping, the release of magical energy was just so great that a great deal of the universe's magical energy was effectively destroyed.
I think there is a slight difference here, since the Rigelian Falchion is one of Naga's fangs and contains her power within it, while Ragnarok came directly from Mila, though Mila should at least downscale from Naga anyway given they fought in lore. I would say it could be legitimate under the stipulation that it only applies to Ragnarok users FROM Valentia. idk if it's still the case, but I remember vsbw used to scale Elibe characters to the 3H version of Fimbulvetr, which doesn't make sense given that different realms portray certain spells in radically different ways, e.g. Nosferatu going back and forth between being light and dark magic.
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I mean, sure, my question only goes for the Valentian Ragnarok
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Then yeah should scale imo assuming Ragnarok comes directly from Mila's power
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Worth noting as well tho this would only buff Delthea, since her and Celica are the only ones who can use Ragnarok and Celica already scales
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A power being granted by a being doesn't mean that it scale to that being, and only Alm currently scale to the Divine Dragon, Celica don't.
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Yeah, that's why I added the caveat of Ragnarok channeling Mila's power the way Falchion channels Naga's power. If they're channeling her power to perform the spell, I would assume that counts, no? And interesting that Celica doesn't scale, I would've assumed she'd be on par with Alm
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Alm himself only scale thanks to Falchion
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Forgive me for not knowing this firsthand since I haven't beaten Echoes, I'm seeing on FE Wiki that only Alm with Falchion can kill Duma, but the rest of the cast can harm him, no? And does this also apply to Grima in the postgame?
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Most of that is gameplay, but this is basically every FE game's canon lore is that the final boss is implied to be invulnerable to every thing but the Main Character(s) using their Ultimate Weapon. Basically, Path of Radiance is like the only game in the series where the actual gameplay accurately reflects the canon lore when it comes to Ashnard being immune to all but Ike's Ragnell (Well and Laguz Kings and Dragons when taking gameplay, but Ike is still canonically the one who finishes the job).
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We consider it to be game mechanics more than anything since if we don't do that literally everyone in every game would be chainscaled to the strongest characters of every game.
With some exception like 3h where weaker unit can downscale to the top tier for things like Felix beating Byleth in their support if the characters need some kind of buff to defeat another then they only scale via that buff.
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fwiw, even the earliest FE games do this too. You can only harm Gharnef with the Starlight tome, and there's that one guy in Gaiden who can only be harmed on odd numbered turns. Fire Emblem is a series that's big on gameplay-story integration, I think if the character is truly meant to be immune to everything but the big special weapon, that would reflect in gameplay
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y'know, I'm just now noticing Engage as a whole is missing from the wiki. Has nobody done research into that game or is there something else going on
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A fun attention to detail I love about Duma is that Echo Lucina's Parallel Falchion can't hurt him but Echo Marth's Exalted Falchion can. Echo Roy's Binding Blade can also kill him.
I believe Engage doesn't have profiles simply because someone needs to dedicate time to making them, I think TheGatememer had a pretty far along sandbox for Alear.
I believe Engage doesn't have profiles simply because someone needs to dedicate time to making them, I think TheGatememer had a pretty far along sandbox for Alear.
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We are currently making profiles but as we need to do like most of the Emblems profile before posting them it takes times especially since we are working on several things/verses at the same time.
I think Gatememer is doing an Alear and Emblem Marth profile as for me I have a mostly done profile for Veyle and Emblem Lyn and is currently doing one for Emblem Celica.
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Earlier, I alluded to having calcs done for the planet flip interpretation of the Ending Winter. I just put together my first calc blog post detailing it, can anybody tell me if I'm off the mark with it? I'm thinking of putting an upgrade thread together and using this as a base
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Case by case, but in Gharnef's case, his invulnerability is more so do to a hax ability or attack nullification. Where as most Endgame bosses it's due to their canon raw power just being leagues above everyone and everything besides Divine Dragon tier weapon. Veld is someone we can officially call the weakest final boss in the series in terms of how relative to those who fight him since he doesn't really fight all too well and it's mainly hax combined with minions guarding him is where his threat comes from.
We're missing Thracia stuff too, but Engage has been worked on for years but we needed to do other stuff. But Engage will basically have the exact same scaling as Heroes. Characters upscale from Book 6 Veronica as early as Chapter 6 given the DLC stuff.
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So if we're looking at it through the lens of the divine dragon tier characters just being strong enough to shrug off damage from everybody, wouldn't that mean they should still be immune to damage in gameplay anyway? For example, even without the enchantment on his armor, the Black Knight in Radiant Dawn can't be harmed by any of the enemies in part 1 because his stats are just too high for it to be possible
