Helluva Fast Downgrades (Hellaverse Tier 5 Removal)

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Oh we turned this into 7 pages, probably should stop lol

Yeah, probably. I like joking about pushing it to 10 pages but...

Nooooo I enjoyed watching this

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

Dude it fragged like three buildings. The feat overall to me just seems to be really wonky, like the beam is so clearly not the same size in every shot.

No, the laser wasn't shown destroying buildings because Vox aimed it at the gate, and its size changes because it needs to be visible in the show.

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

It performed the Tier 5 feat after crushing the shield btw

He performed one before, and another after, although the second one was not calculated.

 

[DaReaperMan]

No, the laser wasn't shown destroying buildings because Vox aimed it at the gate, and its size changes because it needs to be visible in the show.

Just say the beam is luminosity and that's why it's visible at different sizes from different perspectives

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Not needed, this is different case since this is about KE of the metal ball doing no destruction,

It's not different, not entirely at least. Just like that metal ball with kinetic energy flying at Mach 300 did no destruction to that wall, the laser which split planet-sized clouds at sub-light speeds barely damages anything more than vaguely a few buildings in Heaven. Sound like similar cases, no?

here we are measuring blast's AP via side KE effects

Yes, and the AP measured for the blast is inconsistent with the destruction that blast causes. Again, the metal ball analogy to a tee.

, and the blast should've wasted most of its energy on shield and KE anyways.

I'm sorry, do you not repeatedly mention that standard laws of physics for explosions shouldn't apply here because Lucifer is a supernatural power source? Did you not get on me for explaining that explosions don't yield billions of times greater energy than their destructive range, yet simultaneously argue another point in physics when it comes to kinetic energy running out? I'll admit, this argument does actually have some basis to it, but we still have no way of quantifying exactly how much energy was lost and even if 99% of it was, that would still be over 17 Yottatons worth of Kinetic Energy hitting Heaven which still do not cause major damage to any of the structures.

Notice how it is about natural explosions, not the ones caused by supernatural means.

The method we use for calculating explosions does not change when the explosion is caused via supernatural means. My point was that characters' energy blasts causing explosions is not the same as an explosion occuring in general, because we scale the characters' explosion generation to what their AP scales to, whereas explosions, regardless of what causes them or the power source, do not scale anywhere other than what the damage they cause is, because you cannot scale explosions (without context) to other characters as if itself were a character.

When did I argue against this lmao.

You implied that "overheating" is a specific, separate explanation from "exploding", that doesn't have its AP =/= DC, in contrast to what I argue for explosions in general.

Calcs are, once again, mere estimates.

Yes, and they can absolutely be wrong or inflated. And these "estimates" are in 90% of situations what this wiki uses to scale characters, and again, like with KE guidelines, we have rules in place for what can or can't go for calcs, like FTL for KE feats for example. I don't see how this is at all an argument against anything. We calculate explosions by measuring their size and inputting the radius of the blast into the formula to gauge how powerful if it is, if the radius is smaller, the yield is stronger, and vice versa with a larger radius. The point of me bringing that up is to show that the size of explosions, I.E its Destructive Capacity, absolutely is in congruence with its Attack Potency, meaning that argument cannot be applied for explosions which cannot be scaled to anything other than themselves. It's different for characters whom we know scale higher. If characters like Charlie, Emily, Alastor, etc etc. actually had other feats on this level, then the MoL killing them would be enonugh to upscale its AP to that level. But because we don't have that, and the only other basis for Tier 5 for those characters is the very explosion that we are trying to scale, then the only thing we can do in that situation is gauge the power of the explosion itself.

And as me and Reaper told you, we don't know what type of destruction would it cause. Frag, pulv, vap, atomization, worse?

And as I've told both of you, that is all baseless speculation. The MoL overheating causing an explosion is the simplest and least assumption-based explanation for what causes the destruction. There is no proof whatsoever of "atomization", let alone what you're clearly implying with subatomic destruction for which, again, only can be used if "clearly stated". I genuinely don't think you know what Occam's Razor means given how much you keep bringing this point up.

Also as Reaper and DeadlyMonarchSmth (sorry but name is long) noted long time ago, Carmilla didn't know a flipping Lucifer would source it. So she surely didn't know how powerful it would be, thus further making it extreme lowball.

Yeah, and I already noted that this doesn't matter. The U.S Military not knowing exactly how a foreign country designs a new weapon they created does not mean they are not a reliable authority on estimating its power. I also find it pretty funny how this implies Carmilla somehow doesn't know how powerful Lucifer is despite living in Hell for at least several decade. Regardless, Carmilla not knowing the MoL's power source in no way doesn't mean she doesn't have even the slightest idea on how powerful it is. She is literally the only reason Vox was able to engineer such a weapon in the first place, so at bare minimum she is easily the most qualified out of anyone who could talk on the Might of Lilith short of Lucifer, but Lucifer is shown many times to not be really much of a booksmart person anyway.

Yeah, Pyrope has 9-B explosions yet he himself is High 8-C via chainscaling. Mind blowing, isn't it?

Yeah, High 8-C via scaling to feats that are not that explosion. I was asking for a specific instance of an explosion, which in the same instance, I.E the same calculation/blog, the yield of the explosion is measured billions of times higher than what the yield is when using the standard explosive formula, not two separate feats. I already explained multiple times at this point that the MoL could get higher than it's DC if there were other feats from other characters in the verse that got higher than the yield of destroying half of Pentagram City, which the MoL would upscale from by threatening to kill them. I even cited Anime Imperfect Cell as an example, his self-destruction is High 3-A only due to the fact that it was going to kill Goku, otherwise it would not have been above 5-B without that scaling in mind if we didn't have feats for Goku that got above that level.

If we go by your logic and assume it's all MoL can do, then Vox is stupid since it can barely destroy buildings,

Um...no? Literally right before it destroyed those buildings, it shattered the barrier the Seraphims put to shield anyone from entering Heaven. That's pretty tactical if you ask me. Also, even if it that was all it could do, so what? A weapon that wipes city blocks off the map in a single shot not being something impressive is an opinion that nobody on Earth except powerscalers will tell you. Also, Vox kinda is stupid anyway lol.

while Неаven is a planet larger than Hell with its 100B inhabitants.

Given how fast the shots are and their range is still Planetary regardless of the destruction they cause, saying it wouldn't be effective because it doesn't literally nuke the entire planet immediately is extremely weird and also goes against Vox's plan anyway. Vox did not want to destroy Heaven, he wanted to take it over. It'd be pretty pointless to rule over a place that is completely decimated with all life wiped out, wouldn't it?

But in reality, it just wasted most of its AP on shield and KE feat.

Yeah again, even if 99% of it was wasted (you can't prove even that), that would still be 17 Yottatons hitting Heaven. You would need to assume so many other decimal places of 9 to the point where mathematically it's just equal to 100, in for that 5-B value to be reduced to 8-B, or even just the High 6-C yield of destroying half of Pentagram City.

I guess Oxford Languages is unreliable source because... uh... some rando on VSBW said so.

Uh, I never said that at any point. I said Google definitions can be wrong at points, but like I said, it doesn't matter because whether we call it "strawman" or not, you were still misrepresenting my points.

Good luck making staff discussion threads that nukes every single calculation ever because 99.99999999999999999% of fiction gives zero stuff to Einstein's theory of relativity!

Uh, that's what I said you should effectively be pushing for, because you think physics shouldn't apply to pieces of fiction, yet only when it comes to calculations in general do they suddenly now apply to feats in fiction. Holy hell (lol), I am not genuinely arguing to disregard the laws of physics, I'm extrapolating what you are saying to those extremes because it is a double standard.

No, it's stupid because it shows going through the center of the planet but then it doesn't.

Who said it didn't? Going through the center of a planet on its own does not scale anywhere, we don't even know if Heaven has a core or anything inside its center at all, and the visuals on Heaven show it going through the city no problemo anyway.

Calcs are mere low-end estimates, this is why I'm rejecting stuff.

Yeah, it's the "mere low-end estimate" you are relying on the get the feat to Tier 5. You're rejecting the very same laws that those "mere low-end estimates" rely on to get the values they do, because it's "fiction". If it's fiction and laws of physics don't matter, then they don't matter. They don't only matter in one case and not in the other. Again, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Nobody here is gonna downgrade a character for him showing destruction far less than he has AP for. Otherwise, we would always accept the lowest calc possible (which would usually be around Tier 10-9).

And I'm not asking for that, but I am asking for that when we are talking about explosions that cannot be scaled to anything other than KE feats which violate KE guidelines.

They didn't write Superman last time I checked lol. So who even bothers to care.

They still know who he is and how powerful he is. If we were to take what authors decisions are over the feats in the story, then Invincible and Omni-Man are as powerful as Superman, just as Hazbin Hotel's animators being "stupid" means that the blast that destroys a few buildings is 5-B.

No, it's relevant? Normal explosions get their source from pure physics mechanics, this takes its source, i.e. ALL OF ITS FUNCTIONING, explicitly from the supernatural entity, so...?

Cool, now show me an instance of a calculation where we use an entirely different formula when a supernatural entity powers an explosion, one that yields billions of times more energy than what the yield of that explosion would be under the standard formula for explosions.

Where did I tell you that they are equivalent LMAO, you're just saying stuff I never stated

Uh, you didn't, and I never said you did anyway. I was bringing that up specifically because that instance further disproves Alastor scaling to Adam without you even realizing it.

This is not a response to my claim, if you're going to post memes at least have something to accompany them.

I don't care at all about Invincible,

I don't expect you too, it's an example I'm bringing up.

but there's a bloody difference having your face obliterated and lake of blood around it

I agree. Unfortunately though, that's...literally exactly what happened to Adam, too. Hence the Invincible/Omni-Man comparison.

versus enduring the attacks

He literally did not "endure" them by any stretch of the imagination. If getting a black eye, having several bruises, having a bloody nose and laying in a pile of blood near your head counts as "enduring" something, then you and I have two very different definitions of that word.

and straight up standing and being able to talk after them.

Does Kingpin scale to the guy who literally slapped the skin off of him because he was starting to get back up?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

He performed one before, and another after, although the second one was not calculated.

???
The beam did the Tier 5 cloud split after breaking the barrier?

 

[StoneKillerz12]

"Your screams will make for a satisfying broadcast" and we know he does it via "tearing soul apart" from Husk line. It couldn't be with a deal since who the heck will gladly accept being repeatedly tortured for years with no way to escape lmao. It isn't added because I didn't do Alastor CRT yet.

For the record, I actually agree with this. Not only that, but I think this could also qualify as BFR if you could prove Alastor could accomplish this mid-fight. But sadly I don't think he can use this ability until his opponent is either dead or willingly accepts a deal with him.

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

???
The beam did the Tier 5 cloud split after breaking the barrier?

There was an expansion of clouds upon colliding with the barrier, and another upon breaking through it, however the calculated expansion is based on the collision.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

There was an expansion of clouds upon colliding with the barrier, and another upon breaking through it, however the calculated expansion is based on the collision.

Still the og post was about how it lost energy after destroying the barrier, can't really say that when it did the Tier 5 feat but bigger after doing so.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Not a day has passed since this thread was born, and SOMEHOW it has reached 8 pages.

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

Still the og post was about how it lost energy after destroying the barrier, can't really say that when it did the Tier 5 feat but bigger after doing so.

I don't know if it's the translator, but there are some things I just don't understand.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I don't know if it's the translator, but there are some things I just don't understand.

The original post said it lost energy after destroying the barrier. That doesn’t really work, since it performed the same Tier 5 feat afterward, but on a larger scale.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

It's not different, not entirely at least. Just like that metal ball with kinetic energy flying at Mach 300 did no destruction to that wall, the laser which split planet-sized clouds at sub-light speeds barely damages anything more than vaguely a few buildings in Heaven. Sound like similar cases, no?

It literally wasted most of the AP into the feat and destruction of buildings is after that, while metal ball never spent its AP.

I'm sorry, do you not repeatedly mention that standard laws of physics for explosions shouldn't apply here because Lucifer is a supernatural power source?

I'm saying that we don't know how Lucifer-powered thing works, so AP does not necessarily translate into DC.

Did you not get on me for explaining that explosions don't yield billions of times greater energy than their destructive range, yet simultaneously argue another point in physics when it comes to kinetic energy running out? I'll admit, this argument does actually have some basis to it, but we still have no way of quantifying exactly how much energy was lost and even if 99% of it was, that would still be over 17 Yottatons worth of Kinetic Energy hitting Heaven which still do not cause major damage to any of the structures.

Think about it like that: if I have 1700000000000550000 Joules and I waste 1700000000000000000 of them, I still have 550000 Joules but not more. That's what happened here.

The method we use for calculating explosions does not change when the explosion is caused via supernatural means.

Cool, so this is used as a lowball since supernatural being may not have all AP strictly wasted into DC.

You implied that "overheating" is a specific, separate explanation from "exploding"

No?

Yes, and they can absolutely be wrong or inflated.

Debunk the KE part then. Last time I checked, this was not your argument.

And these "estimates" are in 90% of situations what this wiki uses to scale characters

As a lowball. There is a reason that we don't use Tier 9 DB feats to debunk the entire verse, even though I'm sure there are plenty.

I don't see how this is at all an argument against anything.

The point is that you can't use calc with lower value to downgrade calc with higher value lol.

We calculate explosions by measuring their size and inputting the radius of the blast into the formula to gauge how powerful if it is, if the radius is smaller, the yield is stronger, and vice versa with a larger radius.

Same with characters: a 2-C Goku should straight up at least atomize anything he touches. Why doesn't he? The method of destruction is directly proportional to the energy output and vice versa. Isn't this how we measure everything? Via physics? If he merely pulverizes a chunk of concrete, he cannot possibly be 2-C.

And as I've told both of you, that is all baseless speculation.

Peak argument, except it does not work. You know, saying "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" exists for a reason?

The MoL overheating causing an explosion is the simplest and least assumption-based explanation for what causes the destruction.

It caused the destruction, right, but what kind of destruction? Frag? Vap? Atom? Provide me answer with evidence, otherwise I slap unknown to it and say it doesn't debunk a thing.

There is no proof whatsoever of "atomization"

Neither there is a proof of no atomization, so you can't assume either.

Yeah, and I already noted that this doesn't matter. The U.S Military not knowing exactly how a foreign country designs a new weapon they created does not mean they are not a reliable authority on estimating its power.

Funnily enough, U.S. military thought the Soviet Union will collapse in a matter of weeks against Third Reich (and on that matter, so did British Empire and Third Reich), so that's a poor example.

I also find it pretty funny how this implies Carmilla somehow doesn't know how powerful Lucifer is despite living in Hell for at least several decade.

No? We are saying she is unaware that Lucifer himself was powering it.

Regardless, Carmilla not knowing the MoL's power source in no way doesn't mean she doesn't have even the slightest idea on how powerful it is.

She may know how strong it is using someone weaker than Lu, but not if he is used. I doubt she would use something that is equal or much more powerful than him, since, well, there is no such thing to her knowledge.

She is literally the only reason Vox was able to engineer such a weapon in the first place

Designing =/= knowing how powerful it is with much more powerful source. She was not there when Lu was kidnapped. I can design a huge weapon with source that can generate 6K Megatons, but then someone puts a source that allows for 7M Megatons. I'll still use my estimates based on my original design.

Yeah, High 8-C via scaling to feats that are not that explosion.

But didn't you say that since explosion radius = energy directly, that particular explosion cannot possibly be High 8-C, since it is not gigantic?

I was asking for a specific instance of an explosion, which in the same instance, I.E the same calculation/blog, the yield of the explosion is measured billions of times higher than what the yield is when using the standard explosive formula, not two separate feats.

Welp, that thankfully is not relevant here, since you are debunking MoL's blasts (another feat) based on the explosion (which is a separate feat), so...

Um...no? Literally right before it destroyed those buildings, it shattered the barrier the Seraphims put to shield anyone from entering Heaven. That's pretty tactical if you ask me. Also, even if it that was all it could do, so what? A weapon that wipes city blocks off the map in a single shot not being something impressive is an opinion that nobody on Earth except powerscalers will tell you. Given how fast the shots are and their range is still Planetary regardless of the destruction they cause, saying it wouldn't be effective because it doesn't literally nuke the entire planet immediately is extremely weird and also goes against Vox's plan anyway. Vox did not want to destroy Heaven, he wanted to take it over. It'd be pretty pointless to rule over a place that is completely decimated with all life wiped out, wouldn't it?

I'm saying that going by your logic, assuming that shattering shield is irrelevant and it did not waste most of its energy there and destroying a couple of buildings is the only relevant feat showcasing its true energy, MoL basically doesn't do much in big term. There are 2.75 billion buildings on Earth. Assuming Vox destroyed 10 buildings (high-ball), it would need 275M shots, and the original shot took about 40 seconds, which yields about 2.6 months of non-stop shooting lol.

Also, Vox kinda is stupid anyway lol.

You are free to downgrade his Genius intelligence in this or separate CRT then.

Yeah again, even if 99% of it was wasted (you can't prove even that), that would still be 17 Yottatons hitting Heaven. You would need to assume so many other decimal places of 9 to the point where mathematically it's just equal to 100, in for that 5-B value to be reduced to 8-B, or even just the High 6-C yield of destroying half of Pentagram City.

Not really. It could have indeed wasted nearly all of its energy to destroy the shield and do KE feat, while rest was barely enough to destroy buildings. You are just arguing from increduility here.

Uh, I never said that at any point. I said Google definitions can be wrong at points

If you ever bothered to open the link, Google definitions literally use Oxford languages.

I'm now doubtful about how carefully you read what I'm saying.

Uh, that's what I said you should effectively be pushing for, because you think physics shouldn't apply to pieces of fiction, yet only when it comes to calculations in general do they suddenly now apply to feats in fiction. Holy hell (lol), I am not genuinely arguing to disregard the laws of physics, I'm extrapolating what you are saying to those extremes because it is a double standard.

My point is that not everything conforms to laws of physics in fiction. Most notable things are: FTL travel, talking in space, DC being lower than AP.

Who said it didn't? Going through the center of a planet on its own does not scale anywhere

So... it somehow went through center... but also horizontally through the gate? What? From gate's perspective it should've gone into the ground, but it was parallel to earth.

Yeah, it's the "mere low-end estimate" you are relying on the get the feat to Tier 5.

I don't see how these two contradict. We use Tier 5 feat in absence of higher. If MoL will be rebuild and will nuke a star, we will use 4-C since KE feat is a mere lowball estimate. But right now, it's the only thing we have, so we go by it. What's your issue? Genuinely no clue.

You're rejecting the very same laws that those "mere low-end estimates" rely on to get the values they do, because it's "fiction".

Genuinely strawman.

And I'm not asking for that, but I am asking for that when we are talking about explosions that cannot be scaled to anything other than KE feats which violate KE guidelines.

Except it violates nothing (except Sera's shield).

They still know who he is and how powerful he is. If we were to take what authors decisions are over the feats in the story, then Invincible and Omni-Man are as powerful as Superman

This kinda goes against your point, you are relying on author intent and then saying Omni-Man would be stronger than Superman by that logic which I assume you don't believe in.

Just pick one lol.

just as Hazbin Hotel's animators being "stupid" means that the blast that destroys a few buildings is 5-B.

Notice how it destroyed a few buildings after doing 5-B feat, thus wasting its 5-B energy? Thanks.

Cool, now show me an instance of a calculation where we use an entirely different formula when a supernatural entity powers an explosion, one that yields billions of times more energy than what the yield of that explosion would be under the standard formula for explosions.

Irrelevant to the topic LMAO.

Uh, you didn't, and I never said you did anyway.

You did. "Equivalent" is literally there.

I was bringing that up specifically because that instance further disproves Alastor scaling to Adаm without you even realizing it.

Except I was always pushing for downscaling lmao.

This is not a response to my claim, if you're going to post memes at least have something to accompany them.

How am I supposed to react to those blatantly wrong claims? This is worth "2+2=5" lmao.

I don't expect you too, it's an example I'm bringing up.

A naturally following question: why?

I agree. Unfortunately though, that's...literally exactly what happened to Adam, too. Hence the Invincible/Omni-Man comparison.

That's cool, now can you show what happens a couple of seconds after that? Oh right...

(Genuinely dunno why the quality is bad, I took it from Hazbin wiki lmao)

He literally did not "endure" them by any stretch of the imagination. If getting a black eye, having several bruises, having a bloody nose and laying in a pile of blood near your head counts as "enduring" something, then you and I have two very different definitions of that word.

Yeah, if standing up and being able to talk even after multiple punches is not same as enduring, I'm afraid this is not the case.

Does Kingpin scale to the guy who literally slapped the skin off of him because he was starting to get back up?

I don't care. Hearing about him the first time. Have fun with that guy though.

 

[Robo432343]

8 pages and no staff has shown up? Come on man

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Not a day has passed since this thread was born, and SOMEHOW it has reached 8 pages.

"Helluva FAST downgrades"

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

The original post said it lost energy after destroying the barrier. That doesn’t really work, since it performed the same Tier 5 feat afterward, but on a larger scale.

It really doesn't make much sense (although that doesn't invalidate KE).

 

[StoneKillerz12]

It literally wasted most of the AP into the feat and destruction of buildings is after that, while metal ball never spent its AP.

Firstly, you've not provided any evidence at all the beam lost any energy beyond just stating that it did. All I saw was the beam continuously ramming against the barrier until it eventually kept going, no implication of it getting weaker whatsoever. Secondly, again, you cannot actually prove that blast wasted "most" of the energy, in fact you can't even prove any specific portion. Finally, as another guy recently pointed out, even after the barrier gets shattered, it splits clouds again after piercing through Heaven, which I'd imagine you believe would be Tier 5 as well, so this argument doesn't even matter anyway and if anything disproves the feat even more.

I'm saying that we don't know how Lucifer-powered thing works, so AP does not necessarily translate into DC.

We do very much know how explosions work, regardless of who or what made those explosions, we calculate them with formulae that require us to input their size into it. 1/4th of PC city as that radius does not yield anywhere near Tier 5 results, objectively. For the millionth time, DC does objectively translate into AP when it comes to explosions based off of the formulae we use. Just show me an example where a calculation for an explosion yields a result billions of times greater than what the same result would be using the standard explosive formula.

Think about it like that: if I have 1700000000000550000 Joules and I waste 1700000000000000000 of them, I still have 550000 Joules but not more. That's what happened here.

Good, now prove it wasted any energy, much less any specific portion which itself is not provable. You're just saying "that's what happened here" with the same amount of basis as "trust me bro!". And yeah, that would mean you are effectively wasting 100% of the energy mathematically (the amount of .9 digits would round it up to that on any calculator), which we would see even the slightest visual accompaniment for, like the beam becoming less bright, becoming smaller, slowing down, etc etc. We don't see any of that, we don't see anything which suggests the blast exhausted effectively all of its energy in that moment. Unless you believe the actual blast was over 999999999999x stronger than the other Tier 5 cloud split at the end too, in which case go ahead and make a CRT for that.

Cool, so this is used as a lowball since supernatural being may not have all AP strictly wasted into DC.

Not what I meant and you know it. I was referring to the MoL exploding and again, explicitly not even fully 100% destroying PC. Explosions don't work like that, they do not produce billions of times more energy than what would be predicted for its size, and Lucifer being a "supernatural being" doesn't change that. Again, if we had other feats for the characters the MoL exploding would have killed that get higher than the yield, then there could be discussion for the explosion being rated higher than the yield its size would predict, but at the moment, there isn't. It's getting very, very annoying having to endlessly reiterate this and not have it get across properly. The examples you use for characters who are High 8-C having only 9-B explosions do not work because they have feats higher than 9-B, there are currently no accepted feats for the Hellaverse higher than the MoL.

If Pyrope's 9-B explosions were the greatest feats in Undertale, then we would be discussing that feat on its own merits, and if the result got dramatically higher than 9-B based off of kinetic energy, but the damage caused by the explosion does not compare to what the kinetic energy result predicts, we throw the kinetic energy result out and go with the 9-B value. But if another feat later came out showing that explosion can harm a High 8-C character, then the yield being higher than 9-B is applicable. We have no other feats to base the MoL killing everyone in Hell off of, therefore we would just stick with that feat on what it predicts itself, and those predictions violate KE guidelines still.

No?

Perhaps I misunderstood you then, but you said "overheating" as if you were proposing an alternative to the machine exploding, but I'll concede on this point anyway.

Debunk the KE part then. Last time I checked, this was not your argument.

That...literally is half of my entire argument for this CRT. The KE result is inapplicable because it violates KE guidelines, and no, it "wasting most of its energy" doesn't even matter because it still causes a supposedly Tier 5 cloud split after it "wastes most of its energy" and literally right as the same level of power with that "wasted energy" displays a level of destruction inconsistent with what the KE predicts, again, a violation of KE guidelines. This is not "AP =/= DC", and even if it was, it still violates KE guidelines regardless. I genuinely cannot understand how after literally all day has been a back and forth between us, that you can somehow think that me not "debunking the KE part" was not a part of my argument. Unless you're referring to the validity of the numbers themselves, in which case I'm glad you asked, because that part has problems, too.

The accepted calc assumes the clouds are as dense as standard cumulus clouds, but this is only true for cumulus clouds which are of the same standard height above sea level that cumulus clouds in real life are. As the calculator that our wiki endorses will tell you, the density of clouds decreases dramatically the higher up in the sky they are. The clouds that were split here are literally thousands of kilometers outside of Heaven's atmosphere, the clouds would weigh effectively nothing at that altitude. Don't believe me? Here's what the calculator itself says with pixel scaling as proof. Don't know about you, but dispersing mass which weighs effectively nothing at that altitude doesn't sound very impressive anymore.

As a lowball. There is a reason that we don't use Tier 9 DB feats to debunk the entire verse, even though I'm sure there are plenty.

Uh...what? Are you seriously suggesting that every single calculated feat on the wiki is a "lowball" for any character in fiction who performed said feat? Then why the hell aren't every single character whose AP is reliant on scaling to a calculated feat rated as "At least" before their tier is stated? No, this is just not how calcs work at all. They tell us how powerful a characters feat would be, they are not "low balls" unless the method itself has assumptions which are on a low end. Calcs themselves can have low ends, yes, but not the very idea of a character having calculations.

The reason we don't use the existence of Tier 9 feats in Dragon Ball is because they all consistently have been destroying celestial bodies literally since very early into the series in the 1980s. The reason we don't use Goku being unable to fully shatter concrete or whatever the hell you're talking about is also because there's a thing known as "Ki Control" in Dragon Ball and various other explanations for why Ki attacks have AP greater than their DC or vice versa. Please at least just use a better example for a verse where AP blatantly exceeds DC without explanation.

The point is that you can't use calc with lower value to downgrade calc with higher value lol.

You can when the higher value explicitly breaks KE guidelines no matter how you slice it and when we are given clear statements on the much stronger concentration of the MoL's supposedly 5-B energy not expanding past a single, albeit big, city.

Same with characters: a 2-C Goku should straight up at least atomize anything he touches. Why doesn't he?

Uh, again, Ki control. There are examples in this very thread brought up giving us canon explanations for why AP =/= DC in Dragon Ball, we do not have such explanations for the MoL's overloaded explosion. Goku doesn't atomize anything he touches because he both consciously and subconsciously chooses not to, as that's how Ki works. Or are you seriously asking why the pure hearted heroic protagonist of Dragon Ball doesn't want to atomize the universe?

The method of destruction is directly proportional to the energy output and vice versa. Isn't this how we measure everything?

Yes, that is precisely my point when it comes to how explosions work, even in fiction. The yield of explosions hinges on their size, you would need a radius many, many times larger than half of PC to get a result anywhere near Tier 5.

Via physics? If he merely pulverizes a chunk of concrete, he cannot possibly be 2-C.

Again, Ki Control. Stop bringing up Dragon Ball and at least use a verse where there is not a canonical explanation for how characters in the verse are not atomizing planets 24/7.

Peak argument, except it does not work. You know, saying "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" exists for a reason?

You're not even using that statement correctly either, all it's saying is that there being no proof of something doesn't mean it can never be proven. For example, there is no objectively provable evidence to prove that God exists, but that also doesn't make God can be disproven either. But regardless, the fact that God technically can't be disproven does not mean that he has been proven. This is simply not how evidence works. I could just as easily claim that unicorns, leprechauns, fairies, etc etc. are all actually real somewhere out there in the universe and because you can't technically disprove that as you haven't scoured every square inch of the universe, that means that it should be considered a viable possibility. It shouldn't, because no evidence for it exists, despite technically no evidence against it existing either. How do you not get this?

It caused the destruction, right, but what kind of destruction? Frag? Vap? Atom? Provide me answer with evidence, otherwise I slap unknown to it and say it doesn't debunk a thing.

Peak shifting the burden of proof. That's your job, my guy. You were the one who presented the possibility that Carmilla meant that "half of the city" being destroyed was more than simple explosive-aftermath destruction, so I am asking you to provide evidence it is more than that. You're the one who should be proving that what Carmilla mentioned about "half of the city" being destroyed means anything greater than how a normal city would look after being hit with an explosion. That is the default explanation that requires the least amount of assumptions, vaporization and atomization do require assumptions, hence Occam's Razor. Again, nothing disproves the idea of unicorns and fairies existing out there in places we haven't looked in the universe either, that doesn't mean it's a possibility we should consider seriously without proof.

Neither there is a proof of no atomization, so you can't assume either.

Again, no proof of no unicorns or fairies existing somewhere in the universe either. Scientists are not actively considering the possibility of them existing, though.

Funnily enough, U.S. military thought the Soviet Union will collapse in a matter of weeks against Third Reich (and on that matter, so did British Empire and Third Reich), so that's a poor example.

That was in 1941 when we barely knew anything about nuclear bombs, and is in relation to a completely different topic then from the Military's knowledge on weapons of mass destruction anyway.

No? We are saying she is unaware that Lucifer himself was powering it.

Uh, you realize it's very possible she could have found out later off-screen, yes? She was quite aware of Vaggie trying to cut the wires and free Lucifer as it was happening. Vaggie not mentioning Lucifer being the power source, which would according to you would up the antee massively from destroying "half the pentagram", to Carmilla would be quite irresponsible for her.

She may know how strong it is using someone weaker than Lu, but not if he is used. I doubt she would use something that is equal or much more powerful than him, since, well, there is no such thing to her knowledge.

Read what I said above.

Designing =/= knowing how powerful it is with much more powerful source. She was not there when Lu was kidnapped. I can design a huge weapon with source that can generate 6K Megatons, but then someone puts a source that allows for 7M Megatons. I'll still use my estimates based on my original design.

Again, read the (above) above.

But didn't you say that since explosion radius = energy directly, that particular explosion cannot possibly be High 8-C, since it is not gigantic?

Yes, when we are talking about the potency of explosions on their own merit without any other feats in the equation. Otherwise every single explosion feat in a story would trace back to a non-explosion feat. What about accepted calcs we use now that are explosions in which we measure the explosive yield based on the explosion's own visual merit and not other feats in entirely different scenes?

Welp, that thankfully is not relevant here, since you are debunking MoL's blasts (another feat) based on the explosion (which is a separate feat), so...

It is absolutely relevant here. You are trying to claim that the explosion is stronger than the MoL's blasts a few minutes earlier. That is the basis of characters scaling to it after all. The stronger explosion, based on its own properties independent of any other scene other than what is described for it, is described as expanding to destroying only "half" of Pentagram City. Let me repeat that in greater detail, you are saying that an explosion that would only destroy half of a city is stronger than one that is 5-B. That's why it's relevant, because you are the one scaling the explicitly stronger explosion that is limited to High 6-C to a supposedly 5-B energy blast. I technically didn't even need to mention what Carmilla said anyway, the fact that the supposedly 5-B blast (which already has issues with its own assumptions FRA) does not cause the same level of destruction as what the KE predicts it would, again, for the thousandth time, a violation of KE guidelines, and it still does that even after it "wastes half of its energy"

I'm saying that going by your logic, assuming that shattering shield is irrelevant and it did not waste most of its energy there and destroying a couple of buildings is the only relevant feat showcasing its true energy, MoL basically doesn't do much in big term. There are 2.75 billion buildings on Earth. Assuming Vox destroyed 10 buildings (high-ball), it would need 275M shots, and the original shot took about 40 seconds, which yields about 2.6 months of non-stop shooting lol.

Uh, who cares? You realize all of these guys are immortal, yeah? 2.6 months is nothing compared to an enteral afterlife. We've also already both agreed that the first blast that shattered the shield is weaker than the explosion caused by the MoL overloading, which is already accepted as being High 6-C. A High 6-C level of energy being exerted every single second absolutely would "do much in big term". High 6-C is at bare minimum over 1700x greater than the yield of the Tsar Bomb, which itself is already enough to end most of humanity as we know even just with the initial blast.

You are free to downgrade his Genius intelligence in this or separate CRT then.

Geniuses are not infallible. Dr. Eggman is ranked as a supergenius, yet there are countless instances of him being comically stupid with his plans backfiring in equally comically stupid ways. Vox is shown multiple times, albeit mostly for comedic effect, to not be very bright in other areas beyond manipulation tactics and somewhat extensive engineering capabilities. Like for example, speaking terrible spanish and not realizing his casually racist remark at Carmilla.

Not really. It could have indeed wasted nearly all of its energy to destroy the shield and do KE feat, while rest was barely enough to destroy buildings. You are just arguing from increduility here.

You don't know what incredulity means. Incredulity refers in most cases to not believing in something solely because the idea of it sounds ridiculous and/or unbelievable. That is not the same as me being rightfully skeptical over the destruction caused by supposedly 5-B energy being inconsistent with what the Kinetic Energy predicts. I am actively providing reasons for why I do not agree with your stance, arguing from incredulity would be me saying "The MoL being 5-B sounds like stupid wank, how can you believe that?", for example, without providing evidence about why it's "stupid wank".

And again, you have not proved that it wasted anywhere near a significant portion of that energy, much less 99.999999999999999%, nothing at all visually implies this, and even if it did, the same "wasted" energy still ends up inducing yet another cloud dispersing feat that would also reach Tier 5 assuming the clouds are truly as dense as cumulus ones at a standard altitude.

If you ever bothered to open the link, Google definitions literally use Oxford languages.

I'm now doubtful about how carefully you read what I'm saying.

I did open it, and Oxford isn't infallible either for the record. Your initial response to the possible idea I could be calling Oxford wrong is an argument from authority. Google also does not always accurately cite the Oxford definitions word-for-word. And for the last time, whether we call it "strawman" or just you misrepresenting my arguments unintentionally, you are still doing one of the two, and both are fallacious.

My point is that not everything conforms to laws of physics in fiction. Most notable things are: FTL travel, talking in space, DC being lower than AP.

Then neither should principles of physics such as kinetic energy apply in specific instances where a story does not conform to what KE predicts, like the MoL piercing heaven.

So... it somehow went through center... but also horizontally through the gate? What? From gate's perspective it should've gone into the ground, but it was parallel to earth.

You realize we are dealing with a spherical planet where "up" and "down" are arbitrary measurements with no objectivity outside of the planet, right? And that is entirely possible if Saint Peter and the Gate to Heaven was placed sideways on the planet from an outsiders perspective.

I don't see how these two contradict. We use Tier 5 feat in absence of higher. If MoL will be rebuild and will nuke a star, we will use 4-C since KE feat is a mere lowball estimate. But right now, it's the only thing we have, so we go by it. What's your issue? Genuinely no clue.

My issue is that you are rejecting conforming to the laws of physics that are the same laws of physics that dictate the feat being Tier 5 in the first place. If the laws of physics shouldn't be taken into account, then neither should kinetic energy.

Genuinely strawman.

Literally how? You are simultaneously rejecting the laws of physics in one instance that disproves your side of the argument but not doing so when they are the basis for your argument. That's called a double standard.

Except it violates nothing (except Sera's shield).

It does indeed violate our guidelines for prioritizing the damage a moving object causes upon making impact with another solid object over the hypothetical kinetic energy of that object if that hypothetical kinetic energy would release far more energy than what was required to destroy whatever the moving object actually destroyed. Quite similar to the MoL barely doing any notable damage to Heaven despite being over 29 times the energy needed to overcome the GBE of the planet, even after apparently "wasting most of its energy".

This kinda goes against your point, you are relying on author intent and then saying Omni-Man would be stronger than Superman by that logic which I assume you don't believe in.

Just pick one lol.

I am not relying on author intent. I am simply stating that "the animators were stupid" is a cop-out and does not explain anything in-universe about why the supposed 5-B blast barely does any notable damage to Heaven, and would only be true under the assumption that your side of the argument is correct in that the blast was actually 5-B. That's called circular reasoning. I bring up authors saying Omni-Man > Superman as it is an example that what the authors of a story intend, like Robert Kirkman "intending" for Omni-Man to be stronger than Superman, not being congruent with the story. This essentially means that if "the animators were stupid" is true, then it is what it is, and the story conforms in-universe to what they drew, explaining nothing about why there is inconsistencies between the destruction caused and the kinetic energy other than that decision being the reason the feat isn't Tier 5.

Notice how it destroyed a few buildings after doing 5-B feat, thus wasting its 5-B energy? Thanks.

Notice how it performs yet another very likely Tier 5 cloud splitting feat after "wasting its 5-B energy", literally right as it destroys a few buildings? Thanks.

Irrelevant to the topic LMAO.

Nope, it is not, at all. You are trying to suggest that because Lucifer is a supernatural entity, that the standards for how we calculate explosions wouldn't apply, just as what my previous response to you was asking about. I am asking you to provide an example of us not using a standard explosion formula because of the source being supernatural thus making the blast radius irrelevant, which is extremely relevant here. I have a feeling you saying "Irrelevant to the topic" is just you dodging because you cannot actually provide an example of this.

You did. "Equivalent" is literally there.

I was misunderstanding what you were saying, my apologies. However, you were repeatedly heavily implying that Alastor does indeed scale to Adam, nothing about it was at all "downscaling", you were suggesting that Alastor harmed Adam and made him scream in pain, that doesn't sound like them being noticeably apart in power even if not far so. Regardless, I don't agree with this either.

Except I was always pushing for downscaling lmao.

Again, it did not seem that way at all, and that's wrong too anyway. Adam was not ever taking that fight seriously until he got seriously annoyed with Adam, Alastor nearly died from that injury, and it is made clear to Alastor many times throughout the first half of S2 that he was never a match for Adam. He does not scale at all, period. As I said to Reaper, I could potentially buy downscaling specifically for his shadow form/magic, but you never, tmk, implied that that's the only way Alastor even slightly scales to him.

How am I supposed to react to those blatantly wrong claims? This is worth "2+2=5" lmao.

Now this is an actual argument from incredulity. Even if I did claim 2 + 2 = 5, if I for some reason had actual proof for it, simply responding with a meme of Gojo putting a gun to his head would not debunk that proof. Anyway no, there is nothing "blatantly wrong" about being mad =/= being bloodlusted. I don't remember feeling the urge to commit murder when I get mad at someone, or hell, even when I'm willing to fight them, I'm not going to actively try to put every ounce of strength I have into attacking them. Because when a human actually punches someone with that intention in mind, there is a very good chance the person getting punched in the face with the full body weight of that person who has the intention to truly hurt them is going to need hospital bills for a broken nose.

A naturally following question: why?

Because the scenes are very much comparable outside of Adam getting up afterwards, but that doesn't prove anything beyond Adam just having high pain tolerance/endurance.

That's cool, now can you show what happens a couple of seconds after that? Oh right...

(Genuinely dunno why the quality is bad, I took it from Hazbin wiki lmao)

Yeah, if standing up and being able to talk even after multiple punches is not same as enduring, I'm afraid this is not the case.

Getting punched by people significantly stronger than you rarely if ever results in getting knocked out cold instantly unless you are struck in a certain spot that would induce that. I really don't see how this proves anything beyond Adam just having very high pain tolerance and endurance, he literally has multiple bruises, a black eye, a bloody nose, and his blood is all over the floor. Anyone who can look at that and think Adam was only slightly weaker than the person who did that to him has clearly never seen the aftermath of someone getting beaten up in real life. Here's an example that oddly fits quite nicely with this whole scene: ever had your house broken into and your dad/brother saves you by beating the everliving crap out of the robber? I should know, because that has literally happened to me before. My dad, despite very much being pissed off and leaving the robber in a pile of his own blood with his punches, the robber was fully conscious when the cops came a few minutes later to take him away. There are many other stories of stuff like this in real life too. Guess what? The robber was like, half the size and muscle mass of my dad. Is he only slightly weaker than my dad despite all of that?

I don't care. Hearing about him the first time. Have fun with that guy though.

You don't care because this is an example of a character who explicitly does not even slightly scale to the other one getting back up after a brutal beatdown. Again, there are so many examples in real life of people still being conscious after beatdowns from people objectively much stronger than them.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

"Helluva FAST downgrades"

The title was in reference to the fact that a downgrade thread was made less than half of a week before the Tier 5 upgrades went through.

 

[ShionAH]

14 Punches.

To the FACE.

10 from DEMON FORM LUCIFER.

Coated with Angelic Magic.

10 seconds to GET BACK UP.

ANGRY Lucifer.

A nose bleed, black eye and a small bruise.

But sure it’s definitely equivalent to Alastor almost dying from a single hit or Mark being turned into a bloody pulp that can barely talk, breathe and has to instantly be taken care of at a hospital for months. You serious? Additionally Charlie says he’s had enough and calms him down AFTER meaning all of that was Lucifer was definitely actually pissed.

Do you have ANY actual arguments other than “Lucifer was smiling and laughing so that means he only uses %1 of his power!!”?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

14 Punches.

To the FACE.

10 from DEMON FORM LUCIFER.

Coated with Angelic Magic.

10 seconds to GET BACK UP.

ANGRY Lucifer.

A nose bleed, black eye and a small bruise.

But sure it’s definitely equivalent to Alastor almost dying from a single hit or Mark being turned into a bloody pulp that can barely talk, breathe and has to instantly be taken care of at a hospital for months. Additionally Charlie says he’s had enough and calms him down AFTER meaning all of that was Lucifer was definitely actually pissed.

Do you have ANY actual arguments other than “Lucifer was smiling and laughing so that means he only uses %1 of his power!!”?

Nah brotacho angry ≠ serious / not holding back,this automatically means Lucifer used 0.0000000000000000000000000000000001% of his power

On a serious note, I’ll answer all of StoneKillerz’s arguments tomorrow when I get to PC, but frankly his arguments are just repeating himself in hopes others buy into it instead of actual refutation tbh.

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

No, the laser wasn't shown destroying buildings because Vox aimed it at the gate, and its size changes because it needs to be visible in the show.

Okay so it's not frag-three-buildings tier, it's break down a gate tier; I'm sorry, I guess I just don't understand the point you're making? Also, my argument is that the size is inconsistent, there's no reason to take the zoomed out shot over the close-up shot and vice versa. It's a weird funky feat in general

 

[Mythic381]

Look, I'm all for Hella verse high scaling, but this is getting a tad bit passive aggressive.

 

[Shann_Guppa]

Agreed, small city level is more appropriate scale for Helluva, considering it would have destroyed half of Pentagram city and it took 13 top tiers to stop it. It fits with splitting the hotel in two as that was just a side effect of the beam going though it really fast. Also would fit with the limited damage the Might of Lilith caused to heaven. I think small town level is too low.

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

WE STILL ON THIS?!

For the record, Alastors small town explosion wasn't even as big as the one he did in the 1st episode and got a higher yield. What if, GASP! An explosion can carry a stupid amount of energy in a small radius because the explosive part isn't actually calcable???????

Bakugo btw is a great example of the problem with relying on size. His strongest attacks even at EoS are DEF comparable to Deku, and yet barely boast town wide destruction. Also, in fiction, what if a smaller explosion were to vaporize a whole building and nothing else? Would we then say it doesn't get to scale to that? NO! We would simply calculate the energy needed to vaporize a building and probably not treat it like an explosion at all. Lucifers power bare minimum pulverizes. If a circular event were able to wipe out half a city even though it's epicenter was almost at the very edge of the (conveniently) circular shaped city, then the range is actually that of the whole city.

Mind you, that would still be more or less Island to country level when accounting for just the brimstone it would destroy.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

The accepted calc assumes the clouds are as dense as standard cumulus clouds, but this is only true for cumulus clouds which are of the same standard height above sea level that cumulus clouds in real life are. As the calculator that our wiki endorses will tell you, the density of clouds decreases dramatically the higher up in the sky they are. The clouds that were split here are literally thousands of kilometers outside of Heaven's atmosphere, the clouds would weigh effectively nothing at that altitude. Don't believe me? Here's what the calculator itself says with pixel scaling as proof. Don't know about you, but dispersing mass which weighs effectively nothing at that altitude doesn't sound very impressive anymore.

As far as I understand, the current calc doesn't uses air density, just water content, which wouldn't change no matter how high up it goes.

 

[Sharlenii]

The downgrade seem fine

As for 6-C or High 6-C but I would like to mention that I disagree with scaling their durability to it because Carmilla mentioned that the explosion would kill of all of them at 0:17 - 0:22 meaning that they can't withstood it, 6-C or High 6-C could be fine for their AP but not their durability as the might of lillth explosion can literally bypass their durability.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

They're not fully scaling to it, they're either 1/14th or 1/1876th its power.

Also should probably take it one step at a time, ya know, this thread isn't supposed to have anything to do with the scaling.

 

[DaReaperMan]

The downgrade seem fine

As for 6-C or High 6-C but I would like to mention that I disagree with scaling their durability to it because Carmilla mentioned that the explosion would kill of all of them at 0:17 - 0:22 meaning that they can't withstood it, 6-C or High 6-C could be fine for their AP but not their durability as the might of lillth explosion can literally bypass their durability.

The High 6-C blast would kill them, yes. But, they used magic to handle it, and wouldn't ya know it, Magic is what Husk, Vox, and Weakened Alastor take hits from. There's heavy division here

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

The downgrade seem fine

As for 6-C or High 6-C but I would like to mention that I disagree with scaling their durability to it because Carmilla mentioned that the explosion would kill of all of them at 0:17 - 0:22 meaning that they can't withstood it, 6-C or High 6-C could be fine for their AP but not their durability as the might of lillth explosion can literally bypass their durability.

Might of Lilith is fueled by the power of a Seraphim, Lucifer. Angelic powers extinguish demonic power, also purifying and destroying their souls (which explains why they would actually die in the explosion), this is the reason the Overlords unite to sing and stop the explosion, since Emilly is a Seraphim. Basically, everyone is amplifying Emilly's shield.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

14 Punches.

To the FACE.

10 from DEMON FORM LUCIFER.

Coated with Angelic Magic.

10 seconds to GET BACK UP.

ANGRY Lucifer.

A nose bleed, black eye and a small bruise.

Cool, very good evidence for Adam having high pain tolerance and endurance. Here's a more humorous example for you, this scene in Family Guy. Carol Channing is obviously not as strong as Mike Tyson here, yet she continuously gets back up from all of his punches despite how clearly stronger they are than her. I'm sure you're going to dismiss this because it's Family Guy or whatever (Family Guy is not all that different from Hazbin Hotel in terms of writing and maturity BTW), but the example still stands. Getting up from getting the crap beaten out of you does not prove anything other than you having high endurance. I swear to god, powerscalers are the only people on this planet who will seriously look you straight in the eyes and tell you that someone getting the absolute snot beaten out of them means the person who got the snot beaten out of them is comparable to the person who beat them up for no other reason than the fact they got up afterwards.

But sure it’s definitely equivalent to Alastor almost dying from a single hit or Mark being turned into a bloody pulp that can barely talk, breathe and has to instantly be taken care of at a hospital for months.

Yes, it is absolutely comparable to those instances outside of slight differences. You're missing the forest for its trees. Alastor "almost died" from a single hit yet, like Adam with Lucifer, immediately got back up afterwards to use his magic and teleport away. Sounds pretty similar to Adam getting back up after getting the snot beaten out of him, no? As for Invincible with Omni-Man, I sort of see why the analogy isn't the best, but that's only because Omni-Man's beatdown on Mark was significantly longer than Lucifer's with Adam's. Lucifer only stopped because of Charlie, it's very much a possibility if he kept going Adam would end up the same way Mark did, if not worse. It's also strange how you don't bring up the one example I presented that is absolutely 100% indisputably comparable to Adam with Lucifer; Spider-Man beating down Kingpin. Kingpin, who we currently have at 9-B and Spider-Man at High 8-C, quite quickly started getting back up after taking every punch from Spider-Man, even ones which literally took his skin off. By your logic, Kingpin should be downscaling from Spider-Man, too. If you think that this logic does indeed prove that, you're more than welcome to make a CRT upgrading Kingpin to High 8-C.

You serious? Additionally Charlie says he’s had enough and calms him down AFTER meaning all of that was Lucifer was definitely actually pissed.

Yeah, and again, "being pissed" is not the same as going 100% all out with every single punch you throw. People in street fights are usually pissed off at their opponent, yet it's very clear to see that they aren't pushing themselves to their absolute human limit with every single punch they throw, otherwise they would pretty easily win the fight immediately given how strong human "knockout" punches are.

Do you have ANY actual arguments other than “Lucifer was smiling and laughing so that means he only uses %1 of his power!!”?

Holy strawman. I did not at any point say "Lucifer only used 1% of his power!" or anything like that, I'm saying that Lucifer clearly did not go 100% all out, and he had no reason to anyway. You don't even need to argue this anyway, as again, Adam still got the absolute snot beaten out of him. Powerscaling brainrot has taken too much of a hold over you to the point you are seriously arguing someone is comparable in strength to the person who left them in a pile of their own blood because they "got back up".

 

[StoneKillerz12]

The High 6-C blast would kill them, yes. But, they used magic to handle it, and wouldn't ya know it, Magic is what Husk, Vox, and Weakened Alastor take hits from. There's heavy division here

I will say, "the High 6-C blast would kill them" is a non-argument, because we don't even scale their AP to the High 6-C yield anyway. A High 6-C blast would absolutely kill a 7-B character, too.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I will say, "the High 6-C blast would kill them" is a non-argument, because we don't even scale their AP to the High 6-C yield anyway. A High 6-C blast would absolutely kill a 7-B character, too.

Well, depends on distance. I can basically guarantee that if you actually calculated what blast would kill them you'd get below 6-C and probably 7-B too thanks to Inverse Square Law, but like I said in the original upgrade thread, this entire feat has a billion imperfect solutions.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Cool, very good evidence for Adam having high pain tolerance and endurance. Here's a more humorous example for you, this scene in Family Guy.

Me skimming over the thread, reading this line without context is wild

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Nah brotacho angry ≠ serious / not holding back,this automatically means Lucifer used 0.0000000000000000000000000000000001% of his power

Again, holy strawman. I'm not claiming any of this, and even if I did, repeating it sarcastically isn't an argument.

On a serious note, I’ll answer all of StoneKillerz’s arguments tomorrow when I get to PC, but frankly his arguments are just repeating himself in hopes others buy into it instead of actual refutation tbh.

Uh, it literally isn't, which tells me you didn't actually read any of them yet. And you're the one endlessly repeating yourself with the whole "AP =/= DC" claim even after I'm explaining to you how it doesn't work here due to KE guidelines. Every time I "repeat myself", not only do I specifically specify that I am doing that (like when I say stuff like "for the thousandth time"), I only do it because you repeat arguments which boil back down to the same claim of "AP =/= DC".

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Me skimming over the thread, reading this line without context is wild

It's wild even with context honestly lol

 

[DaReaperMan]

Me skimming over the thread, reading this line without context is wild

Basically, 80% of the supporter base, myself included disagrees, to varying degrees of accepting a potentially lower value, 20% agrees with most of it, and that's where we stand beyond the OP.

Not gonna give a summary cause that's an entire argument, but I will give what they'd be downgraded to should this pass:

Adam, Lucifer, and Ch*rlie pitchfork/rage: High 7-A(3.31 Gigatons), possibly High 6-C(134.09 Gigatons) (For the record, Adam not downscaling to Lucifer is certainly a take, considering getting tackled made ol' Lucy grunt among other things, and really that should be another thread.)

For everyone else who's scaling: 7-B(73 Megatons or so), possibly 6-C (9.5 Gigatons)

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

That...literally is half of my entire argument for this CRT. The KE result is inapplicable because it violates KE guidelines, and no, it "wasting most of its energy" doesn't even matter because it still causes a supposedly Tier 5 cloud split after it "wastes most of its energy" and literally right as the same level of power with that "wasted energy" displays a level of destruction inconsistent with what the KE predicts, again, a violation of KE guidelines. This is not "AP =/= DC", and even if it was, it still violates KE guidelines regardless. I genuinely cannot understand how after literally all day has been a back and forth between us, that you can somehow think that me not "debunking the KE part" was not a part of my argument. Unless you're referring to the validity of the numbers themselves, in which case I'm glad you asked, because that part has problems, too.

The accepted calc assumes the clouds are as dense as standard cumulus clouds, but this is only true for cumulus clouds which are of the same standard height above sea level that cumulus clouds in real life are. As the calculator that our wiki endorses will tell you, the density of clouds decreases dramatically the higher up in the sky they are. The clouds that were split here are literally thousands of kilometers outside of Heaven's atmosphere, the clouds would weigh effectively nothing at that altitude. Don't believe me? Here's what the calculator itself says with pixel scaling as proof. Don't know about you, but dispersing mass which weighs effectively nothing at that altitude doesn't sound very impressive anymore.

I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. Cloud expansions don't violate the Kinetic Energy rules because cloud expansions don't hit anything, and the most Lilith's Might Beam does is graze the Gates of Heaven. Since the expansions themselves don't cause any DC because they don't directly affect Heaven, you can't say they violate the Kinetic Energy rules because they didn't even have a DC. What you're doing is trying to appropriate the beam's DC in the expansions to negate them, which is inefficient because it's made explicit in the episode that Vox only wanted to tear down the Gates of Heaven as a symbol of his power, both to gain support among the sinners and to instill fear in Heaven. This explains how, upon colliding with the Seraphin Shield, the beam generates a much stronger tremor in Heaven than colliding with the Gates of Heaven itself; it didn't hit Heaven itself, it only grazed it, shattering the gate. Even if he were to strike the planet with the intention of destroying it, it would still be a flawed argument, because Heaven is the first place of creation, clearly different from a regular planet, and its durability cannot be guaranteed.

Regarding the clouds, the density of cumulus clouds used is actually only that of the water in the cumulus clouds, ignoring the air, which incidentally greatly nerfs the calculation. And no, this is not Earth's atmosphere; it's the atmosphere of both heaven and hell, which covers both and is gigantically larger than Earth's, so the difference in air density cannot be argued. What proves the point is not only the various images of clouds and atmosphere encompassing far beyond the sky, but also the fact that the gates of heaven, upon falling into hell, were undergoing ablation throughout their trajectory, catching fire from friction with the atmosphere. In other words, not only is this not a demerit, but the calculation is nerfed.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

For the record, Alastors small town explosion wasn't even as big as the one he did in the 1st episode and got a higher yield.

Uh, that's because pulverization was used for that explosion, and I have no idea why that calc is still being brought up given the fact it was already rejected several months ago and is no longer on the verse's page.

What if, GASP! An explosion can carry a stupid amount of energy in a small radius because the explosive part isn't actually calcable???????

...except the MoL overheating is calculable, and has been calced to High 6-C. And you cannot claim that "explosions can carry a stupid amount of energy in a small radius" unless explicitly shown or stated, or the explosion has other evidence to get higher than what its radius would predict, such as the fact it would have killed characters with greater durability feats than High 6-C, which we currently have no other feats for.

Bakugo btw is a great example of the problem with relying on size. His strongest attacks even at EoS are DEF comparable to Deku, and yet barely boast town wide destruction.

Yes, this is an actually valid example of AP not equalling DC, because we have attacks to compare the potency of Bakugo's explosions to, specifically because of whom they are capable of harming. The MoL overheating cannot be compared to anything other than a flawed KE feat which violates KE guidelines (even after it "wastes most of its energy"), and the basis of the highest scaling in the verse is currently in relation specifically to that explosion. If MHA's highest feats were Bakugo's explosons, then we would have to quantify the potency of Bakugo's explosions on their own properties, not for whom they are capable of harming.

Also, in fiction, what if a smaller explosion were to vaporize a whole building and nothing else? Would we then say it doesn't get to scale to that? NO! We would simply calculate the energy needed to vaporize a building and probably not treat it like an explosion at all. Lucifers power bare minimum pulverizes. If a circular event were able to wipe out half a city even though it's epicenter was almost at the very edge of the (conveniently) circular shaped city, then the range is actually that of the whole city.

Um...yeah? When did I claim we shouldn't do that? Vaporizing a building clearly requires much more energy than 8-C, and you don't even need an explosion to do that like you yourself say. If a "smaller explosion" vaporized a building despite its radius being smaller than it, than obviously its yield is higher than what its radius predicts, but that is only if we see that happen as the explosion occurs. There is actually basis for using pulverization for the MoL destroying half of PC, but that would require finding PC's volume and percentage of materials, and would still not be anywhere near Tier 5.

Mind you, that would still be more or less Island to country level when accounting for just the brimstone it would destroy.

Again, um...yeah. I don't have any issue with Tier 6 for the feat.

 

[Mythic381]

The downgrade seem fine

As for 6-C or High 6-C but I would like to mention that I disagree with scaling their durability to it because Carmilla mentioned that the explosion would kill of all of them at 0:17 - 0:22 meaning that they can't withstood it, 6-C or High 6-C could be fine for their AP but not their durability as the might of lillth explosion can literally bypass their durability.

When I read this, I remember exactly why I was appointed a moderator.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

Regarding the clouds, the density of cumulus clouds used is actually only that of the water in the cumulus clouds, ignoring the air, which incidentally greatly nerfs the calculation. And no, this is not Earth's atmosphere; it's the atmosphere of both heaven and hell, which covers both and is gigantically larger than Earth's, so the difference in air density cannot be argued.

If it is an actual celestial body what's being used to meassure the size, there's nothing being nerfed. There's no air in space to be displaced.

Also, what's that of heaven and hell having the same atmosphere?