Helluva Fast Downgrades (Hellaverse Tier 5 Removal)

[StoneKillerz12]

Recently, like, very recently, it was accepted in this thread that the vast majority of Hazbin Hotel (and some Helluva Boss) characters would be getting upgraded to 5-B and then later in this thread to 5-A, due to a showing in the finale involving the Might of Lilith piercing the barrier to Heaven. At first glance, the feat does seem valid when statements involving Heaven being a "planet" are taken into account, but there are multiple issues that, from what I've seen, have yet to be addressed here. So enough yapping and let's get into those as quickly as possible, starting with the first part of the initial thread:

So, we're jumping from 7-C peak to Tier 5. Is it an outlier?

Short answer, no.

Long answer: The tier 8 and 7 calcs are either casual or scaling to characters who aren't becoming the above tiers. I will cover said characters as I get to them.

This is...(for the part that matters), just simply not true. The feat that we used for the longest time to get the strongest characters to 7-A (before that calc was thrown out) and is now accepted as being Low 7-C here is derived from Adam, whom is currently accepted as downscaling from Lucifer, splitting the Hazbin Hotel. It's quite clear from the scene that this was absolutely not a "casual" feat by any means. Adam was getting visibly infuriated at Lucifer toying with and mocking him, was cussing him out veraciously, and then with a bruise on his face and a bloody nose shouted as he used both of his hands to fire what is clearly a full powered blast of holy light from his hands which accomplishes this feat. It does not matter if any of the other feats beneath this are casual when the highest rated one is not. If a top-tier's highest feat is Low 7-C, then a sudden jump of orders of magnitude by at least a billion times (probably higher, but you get the point), then that absolutely qualifies any Tier 5 feats as an outlier. But anyway, this is not the sole issue with the Might of Lilith or characters scaling to it, anyway. Let's get into that now.

My main issue with this feat is that the supposed 5-A scale just inherently contradicts not only the visuals of the scene, but also the explicitly stated destructive capacity of the MoL overheating, the thing we are actually scaling the characters to. When the Might of Lilith's beam shatters the barrier and pierces through Heaven itself, barely any destruction beyond destroying the gate and knocking back Saint Peter a bit and vaguely destroying a couple of buildings is what we see. During Vox's speech in the aftermath, little to none of Heaven's major buildings are even remotely damaged and there doesn't even seem to be anyone with any major injuries either. All of this explicitly breaks our Kinetic Energy guidelines, and there have been other similar feats in other verses that have been rejected for these very reasons. But unfortunately, there's more:

As was suggested by @Eden_Warlock99, the Overheat could scale to the Might of Lilith itself.

Feat for scaling here.

The reason for this is the very simple fact that the Overheat is just another shot with a big charge time going explosive. Thus, the 5-B+ feat is the one we're dividing.

The major problem here is that, again, the Overheat being anywhere near Tier 5 explicitly contradicts what the intended destructive scale would be. Let's take a look at what Carmilla, the person who designed the Might of Lilith in the first place, has to say about what would happen.

Carmilla: Vox, stop! Firing anymore will overload the weapon.

Vox: Then I'd better make this shot count!

Carmilla: You idiot! if it overloads, it will blow, taking you, us, and half of the pentagram with it.

Carmilla clearly tells Vox that the Might of Lilith exploding would destroy...half of Pentagram City. Not even all of Hell as a whole, not even the entirety of Pentagram City itself. Just half of it. You really can't dismiss this as Carmilla just speaking in flowery language or dumbing it down or whatever, she is very much trying to talk Vox out of what he's doing for everyone's safety. I'm pretty sure her explaining that it would blow up literally all of Hell or at least, explode with a description significantly greater than "half of a city" to get her point across more effectively. You would not be telling a terrorist not to let a nuclear bomb off by telling them it would destroy half of a small town with it, you would tell them it would end the world. You also can't really claim Carmilla is underestimating it or doesn't know what she's talking about for obvious reasons, either. She designed this weapon and it's a consistent plot point involving her that she's one of the only people in Hell who knows how powerful Heaven is.

So...yeah. As much as it pains me to say this, this feat being anywhere near Tier 5 is just completely inconsistent with the visual scale and narratively implied scale of the Might of Lilith exploding, so at the very least, the current interpretation of this feat simply doesn't work. What I would probably suggest is instead calculating the yield of destroying half of pentagram city and only scaling characters to that. Unless there are other arguments in support of this feat that I was not aware of, I'm pretty heavily inclined to believe this feat goes against Kinetic Energy guidelines.

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Ah yes, an overheating that made Lucifer hella tired being less of a threat than regular ahh beams. Makes sense.

Anyways, following cuz I’m too lazy to debate here, we went over this in General Discussion thread like a billion times. I’m tired boss.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree found the upgrade wank. Shared feats do not scale linearliy not to mention alastor scaling to adam is no since he got stomped by adam.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

not to mention alastor scaling to adam is no since he got stomped by аdam.

This is not even part of the OP. But you are right, he was so stomped that he dodged every single attack before being blinded by light attack and so stomped that he was able to harm him.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Ah yes, an overheating that made Lucifer hella tired being less of a threat than regular ahh beams. Makes sense.

Uh, I never argued this at any point, you're being sarcastic over imaginary scenarios. I did not make any claim that the overheating < the regular beam, I claimed that both of them being 5-B - 5-A is contradicted by the shown and stated scale of both feats, and if anything the explicitly superior "overheating" clearly only being able to destroy half of Pentagram city nerfs the feat even more.

Anyways, following cuz I’m too lazy to debate here, we went over this in General Discussion thread like a billion times. I’m tired boss.

"Too lazy to debate here" yet you left a comment here in the first place that is nothing except sarcastically strawmanning my claims expecting no pushback. You're clearly not too tired if you felt the need to respond at all. Also "we already discussed it bro" holds the same weight as "nuh uh" argumentation wise.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

This is not even part of the OP. But you are right, he was so stomped that he dodged every single attack before being blinded by light attack and so stomped that he was able to harm him.

Was gonna save this for another part, but Lucifer was very obviously holding back and toying with Adam the whole time. This holds the same weight as scaling Kingpin to Spider-Man because he was conscious while Spider-Man was beating him to a bloody pulp.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Uh, I never argued this at any point, you're being sarcastic over imaginary scenarios. I did not make any claim that the overheating < the regular beam, I claimed that both of them being 5-B - 5-A is contradicted by the shown and stated scale of both feats, and if anything the explicitly superior "overheating" clearly only being able to destroy half of Pentagram city nerfs the feat even more.

So your argument is AP = DC? Lol, that’s even worse.

Also it’s funny how you yourself use exact same feat except you have it at Low 4-C instead of 5-A, but I’ll give you benefit of the doubt that you just didn’t update your pages or something.

"Too lazy to debate here" yet you left a comment here in the first place

Notice how I am not very elaborative or going through your OP paragraph-by-paragraph? Yeah.

sarcastically

Reductio ad absurdum is a pretty powerful logical argument, and it usually has some form of sarcasm. Besides, it makes this funnier!

strawmanning my claims

Misunderstanding ≠ strawmanning.

expecting no pushback.

Says who?

You're clearly not too tired if you felt the need to respond at all. Also "we already discussed it bro" holds the same weight as "nuh uh" argumentation wise.

Not really, it’s not my fault you are doing a CRT without engaging with larger fanbase. This is a collaborative wiki project after all.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Was gonna save this for another part, but Lucifer was very obviously holding back and toying with Adаm the whole time.

Here too?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

But fine, given that arguments are different and I misunderstood this, sure, let me elaborate more.

This is...(for the part that matters), just simply not true. The feat that we used for the longest time to get the strongest characters to 7-A (before that calc was thrown out) and is now accepted as being Low 7-C here is derived from Adam, whom is currently accepted as downscaling from Lucifer, splitting the Hazbin Hotel. It's quite clear from the scene that this was absolutely not a "casual" feat by any means. Adam was getting visibly infuriated at Lucifer toying with and mocking him, was cussing him out veraciously, and then with a bruise on his face and a bloody nose shouted as he used both of his hands to fire what is clearly a full powered blast of holy light from his hands which accomplishes this feat. It does not matter if any of the other feats beneath this are casual when the highest rated one is not. If a top-tier's highest feat is Low 7-C, then a sudden jump of orders of magnitude by at least a billion times (probably higher, but you get the point), then that absolutely qualifies any Tier 5 feats as an outlier.

By same logic, I can calculate multiple Goku destruction feats and show that he caps at finite level and therefore 2-C is an outlier.

Calcs are estimates, and destructive capacity does not set cap for attack potency. Same thing I said for MoL city destruction argument: just because it was gonna nuke city doesn’t mean its attack potency cannot be 5-A.

My main issue with this feat is that the supposed 5-A scale just inherently contradicts not only the visuals of the scene, but also the explicitly stated destructive capacity of the MoL overheating, the thing we are actually scaling the characters to. When the Might of Lilith's beam shatters the barrier and pierces through Heaven itself, barely any destruction beyond destroying the gate and knocking back Saint Peter a bit and vaguely destroying a couple of buildings is what we see. During Vox's speech in the aftermath, little to none of Heaven's major buildings are even remotely damaged and there doesn't even seem to be anyone with any major injuries either. All of this explicitly breaks our Kinetic Energy guidelines, and there have been other similar feats in other verses that have been rejected for these very reasons.

The entire scene is odd, as it supposedly goes through the center of the planet, but actually goes through the gate, and then just destroys nothing inside, while it clearly can destroy entire buildings as seen in the scene where Vox tries to use MoL to obliterate Alastor.

This is just animators being stupid.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

So your argument is AP = DC? Lol, that’s even worse.

Um, yeah, in this case AP objectively does equal DC. A machine overheating and exploding cannot have Attack Potency literally several billions of times greater than it's Destructive Capacity, that's not how explosions work. And again, the beam that is explicitly meant to attack Heaven in it's entirety, I.E, it's sole purpose is for it's Destructive Capacity (otherwise Vox wouldn't have needed to strike Heaven directly at all lmao) that is supposedly 5-A did literally zero notable damage to Heaven whatsoever beyond destroying the gate and vaguely a few buildings off-screen. Again, a direct violation of KE guidelines.

Also it’s funny how you yourself use exact same feat except you have it at Low 4-C instead of 5-A, but I’ll give you benefit of the doubt that you just didn’t update your pages or something.

Yeah, it's not like opinions can change under scrutiny.

Notice how I am not very elaborative or going through your OP paragraph-by-paragraph? Yeah.

Not the point. You responding in the first place is actively choosing to engage in a discussion that you are apparently "too lazy" to discuss, but I digress.

Reductio ad absurdum is a pretty powerful logical argument, and it usually has some form of sarcasm. Besides, it makes this funnier!

Not inherently, and humor is subjective.

Misunderstanding ≠ strawmanning.

Strawmans don't have to be intentional. You misrepresented my point and are now backpedaling it as "misunderstanding" it, which if that were the case you could have simply questioned me on what I was arguing.

Says who?

You state that you "don't feel like arguing" or whatever after posting a reply which is clearly baiting for an argument.

Not really, it’s not my fault you are doing a CRT without engaging with larger fanbase. This is a collaborative wiki project after all.

I literally link and am directly responding to the very thread that this upgrade originated from. That's not the same as scouring every single forum on the wiki, especially a forum that does not directly have anything to do with Hazbin Hotel on it's own and is not something I was actively aware was going on.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

But fine, given that arguments are different and I misunderstood this, sure, let me elaborate more.

By same logic, I can calculate multiple Goku destruction feats and show that he caps at finite level and therefore 2-C is an outlier.

Oh cool, another strawman. Goku's "destruction feats" are actual examples of AP not equalling to DC, and his 2-C scaling isn't even entirely directly attributed to him. Also, his feat of affecting the Macrocosm in BoG definitely is visually comparable to the tier we scale it to, the Might of Lilith piercing Heaven isn't.

Calcs are estimates, and destructive capacity does not set cap for attack potency.

It does when it's an explosion. Explosions do not yield energy billions of times greater than the destruction it causes. Kinetic Energy rules also specifically prohibit feats in which the destruction caused is not congruent with the intended yield of the calc, again, calcs very often get rejected for these very reasons.

Same thing I said for MoL city destruction argument: just because it was gonna nuke city doesn’t mean its attack potency cannot be 5-A.

Nope, another strawman. It wasn't "gonna nuke a city", it's destructive scale was only going to destroy half of a city. If the statement was that all of Pentagram City was going to be destroyed, there wouldn't be any contradiction, however there is when the destruction does not even extend to that. A machine overheating and exploding is impossible to apply the whole "AP =/= DC" argument to, because again, that's not how explosions work in any piece of fiction, Hazbin Hotel included. You don't even need to use Carmilla's statement, I'm simply using it to back up the consistency of the destructive scale of the feat not being congruent with what the kinetic energy predicts. The Might of Lilith's supposedly 5-A laser barely does any notable damage to Heaven, that is a direct violation of KE rules, it's as simple as that.

The entire scene is odd, as it supposedly goes through the center of the planet, but actually goes through the gate, and then just destroys nothing inside, while it clearly can destroy entire buildings as seen in the scene where Vox tries to use MoL to obliterate Alastor.

This is just animators being stupid.

"Animators being stupid" is not an in-universe explanation. When we have statements from the designer of the weapon telling us that the maximum yield of the weapon extends only to half of a city, and the visual scale of destruction we see for the supposedly 5-A attack is massively below the calculated energy value, it's a violation of KE rules. These are the wiki's guidelines, not mine. Also it does actually destroy a few buildings in Heaven, but as I said, they are off-screen and most of Heaven otherwise is in-tact. A 7-C attack would yield similar levels of destruction, while most of the Planet remains fine.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Here too?

Yes, here too. He was still laughing and having a good ol' time while beating Adam down, not really taking him seriously still at all. Again, does Kingpin scale to Spider-Man because he was conscious during Spider-Man beating him to a pulp?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Um, yeah, in this case AP objectively does equal DC. A machine overheating and exploding cannot have Attack Potency literally several billions of times greater than it's Destructive Capacity

Says who? Can just be a range issue of overheating.

that's not how explosions work.

Building level Bill Cipher huh (Billding 8-Cipher…)

And again, the beam that is explicitly meant to attack Heaven in it's entirety, I.E, it's sole purpose is for it's Destructive Capacity

Yes, but that still doesn’t indicate strict equality to attack potency. Just means it was build to nuke stuff.

(otherwise Vox wouldn't have needed to strike Heaven directly at all lmao)

Huh. Since when does Vox have other means to fight “big mother**ckers” without MoL? Or teleportation with Planetary range?

that is supposedly 5-A did literally zero notable damage to Heaven whatsoever beyond destroying the gate and vaguely a few buildings off-screen. Again, a direct violation of KE guidelines.

Addressed it in a different reply.

Yeah, it's not like opinions can change under scrutiny.

That’s why I gave you benefit of the doubt.

Not the point. You responding in the first place is actively choosing to engage in a discussion that you are apparently "too lazy" to discuss, but I digress.

I said I was too lazy to debate over, not merely reply to, what I assumed was another rotation of what we repeatedly went over in General Discussion thread.

Debating is, eh, what I am doing currently right now with you, which you can notice is significantly bigger.

Strawmans don't have to be intentional.

You state that you "don't feel like arguing" or whatever after posting a reply which is clearly baiting for an argument.

Huh. Where was I baiting?

I literally link and am directly responding to the very thread that this upgrade originated from. That's not the same as scouring every single forum on the wiki, especially a forum that does not directly have anything to do with Hazbin Hotel on it's own and is not something I was actively aware was going on.

General Discussion thread is even linked on the verse page. It is typical for all verses to have one where major supporters communicate and discuss lots of things. It’s kind of the basics.

another

Not another, not even first.

strawman.

Not really, you are arguing that Attack Potency must directly correspond to Destructive Capacity, and I am using reductio ad absurdum to debunk this.

Goku's "destruction feats" are actual examples of AP not equalling to DC, and his 2-C scaling isn't even entirely directly attributed to him.

This is double standards. You are saying Goku’s destruction feats are not meant to reflect his attack potency which is derived from other things, yet fail to provide why this can’t apply to MoL, instead stating it as a fact with no backup support argument.

Also, his feat of affecting the Macrocosm in BoG definitely is visually comparable to the tier we scale it to

His many other destruction feats would disagree though. And if you just want at least one DC feat to scale to AP, I’m afraid there are plenty of verses that rely on AP without clear showcases of DC on comparable level.

It does when it's an explosion.

Yeah, 8-C Bill.

Explosions do not yield energy billions of times greater than the destruction it causes.

In real life? Yeah. Do you know what in real life also doesn’t happen? FTL travel.

We are in fiction. We have Vox throwing Alastor into the wall and him not even destroying all of it. What’s this? At most 9-B Vox I’m seeing?

Kinetic Energy rules also specifically prohibit feats in which the destruction caused is not congruent with the intended yield of the calc, again, calcs very often get rejected for these very reasons.

I debunked this is another argument.

Nope, another strawman. It wasn't "gonna nuke a city", it's destructive scale was only going to destroy half of a city.

It’s not even strawman dude, half a city, a quarter, or dozen: it doesn’t really affect the essence of your argument much. I’m just saying “city” because it’s shorter. Bruh.

A machine overheating and exploding is impossible to apply the whole "AP =/= DC" argument to, because again, that's not how explosions work in any piece of fiction, Hazbin Hotel included.

Says who?

"Animators being stupid" is not an in-universe explanation.

It is, however, plausible one for scaling purposes.

When we have statements from the designer of the weapon telling us that the maximum yield of the weapon extends only to half of a city

AP ≠ DC for the billionth time.

But even if you don’t like this argument, she never specifies how it will happen. Will city be pulverized? Atomized? Worse?

and the visual scale of destruction we see for the supposedly 5-A attack is massively below the calculated energy value, it's a violation of KE rules.

By your logic destruction is less than 9-B since it barely destroyed the gate and nothing else lmao. After going through the center of the planet too, somehow.

Yes, here too. He was still laughing and having a good ol' time while beating Аdam down, not really taking him seriously still at all.

Ah yes, “YOU CAME HERE AND ATTACK MY DAUGHTER DON’T FORGET YOU ARE IN MY HOUSE” followed by “Dad I think he’s had enough” while having Demon Form, angry eyes, fire coming out, is definitely playing around.

You somehow made an argument even worse than “General of Exorcists was toying with Alastor the entire time to the point of refusing to no concept of diff that bum while clearly having angry face lololololoooool”, congrats.

Again, does Kingpin scale to Spider-Man because he was conscious during Spider-Man beating him to a pulp?

I have no idea man. Ask someone who reads Marvel comics constantly.

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

Agree with OP. The beam not actually doing shit to heaven is really the nail in the coffin for me. Watching.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Not gonna continue addressing the pointless discourse around the whole "too lazy to respond" stuff but instead the actual relevant stuff.

Says who? Can just be a range issue of overheating.

Nope, not what "overheating" means in this case. It means the machine is overheating and is clearly about to explode.

Building level Bill Cipher huh (Billding 8-Cipher…)

Now this is indisputably a strawman and you know it. This is not a natural explosion, this is an attack set off by an extra-dimensional nightmare dream demon, not a machine overheating and exploding. This response is also implying that the explosion is actually far above Building level, and actually equal to Bill's AP, yet...Dipper survived that explosion. So the alternative of this feat if it isn't 8-C is...1-B Dipper? But yes, this feat is indeed 8-C, but that doesn't mean Bill himself caps at that level.

Yes, but that still doesn’t indicate strict equality to attack potency. Just means it was build to nuke stuff.

No, it objectively does when we are talking about actual explosions in which their AP and DC are congruent with each other 100% of the time. Show me one example of Nukes releasing billions of times more energy than the destruction they cause and I'll start hearing you out.

Huh. Since when does Vox have other means to fight “big mother**ckers” without MoL? Or teleportation with Planetary range?

The MoL's intention was to affect all of Heaven at once with its power. If that power did not correlate to the range it affects, a big ass super laser which spans the distance and covers the planet wouldn't be needed, just a means of getting up to Heaven, of which there would be far more convenient ways than building a super laser for.

Google definitions can absolutely be wrong, and under this definition strawmen would rarely ever happen in any debate with anyone who isn't a pathological liar and manipulator. Misrepresenting arguments, whether you meant to or not, is still a strawman, and if you don't wanna call it that then cool, it's still a logical fallacy.

Not another, not even first.

Nope, you continue even in this response to misrepresent my arguments, and earlier with the whole "8-C Bill Cipher" and later reiteration of it, you are intentionally bringing up incomparable arguments.

Not really, you are arguing that Attack Potency must directly correspond to Destructive Capacity, and I am using reductio ad absurdum to debunk this.

I did not say it must always directly correspond to it, I said that it does when we are talking about a machine overheating and exploding. AP and DC not being the same thing only goes so far. Notice how when we calculate explosions, we always go for the size of it to measure how powerful it was. That's what the formula requires. Inputting an explosion with a quarter of Pentagram City's size as the radius does not yield any result anywhere close to 5-A under any explosive formula, at all, under any circumstances.

This is double standards. You are saying Goku’s destruction feats are not meant to reflect his attack potency which is derived from other things, yet fail to provide why this can’t apply to MoL, instead stating it as a fact with no backup support argument.

Not a double standard, because I never had any "standard" to contradict in the first place. I did not say that AP always equals DC, I said it does when it comes to explosions in 99% of cases. 2-C feats in Dragon Ball do not have any inconsistencies between the scale of destruction and the yield we predict for the attack. I am providing multiple "backup support" arguments and your only response to it is repeating the exact same talking point that I'm showing to you is not true in this specific case. AP and DC are not inherently one-to-one, but in the case of explosions in which how we measure them hinges on their size, that cannot be said.

His many other destruction feats would disagree though. And if you just want at least one DC feat to scale to AP, I’m afraid there are plenty of verses that rely on AP without clear showcases of DC on comparable level.

Uh, direct feats =/= scaling. And most if not all of those verses do not get their AP values from explosions that yield billions of times more energy than what their size predicts they'd yield. The example you provided with Bill Cipher is not even remotely comparable because nobody is claiming that 8-C feat is the peak of his power by any stretch of the imagination nor is him firing an energy blast at that building at all comparable to a machine overheating and exploding.

Yeah, 8-C Bill.

Via a feat that wasn't even remotely close to his best and also from a character who has no such anti-feats to pit him at that level anyway? That feat was indeed 8-C, and if you think otherwise and that it does scale to Bill's AP, then go ahead and make a CRT getting Dipper and Mabel to 1-B.

In real life? Yeah. Do you know what in real life also doesn’t happen? FTL travel.

Then why are we using real life physics formulae to calculate these feats? If what physics predict doesn't matter because this is fiction, then why should we be using those very principles when calculating feats in the first place? I'm pretty positive that Vivziepop was not taking into account the kinetic energy of the Might of Lilith when she wrote that scene into the story. Why are these physics only invalid to bring up when it doesn't support your argument? You can't have your cake and eat it, too. And again, if you think the size of explosions does not correlate to the destruction it causes, go ahead and make a CRT for that to get 90% of calculations on the wiki overturned. Or maybe show me one explosion formula we use that doesn't have the radius of the blast as a part of that formula.

We are in fiction. We have Vox throwing Alastor into the wall and him not even destroying all of it. What’s this? At most 9-B Vox I’m seeing?

Again, not at all the same as a machine exploding and somehow yielding billions of times more energy than what would be possible for its size. If you don't think that's valid because this is fiction, then you should have the same opinion for any calculation which uses physics formulae.

I debunked this is another argument.

Stop saying "I debunked" as if it is objective, just say "I responded to this argument".

MEDIA=imgur]a/byLJub7[/MEDIA]
It’s not even strawman dude, half a city, a quarter, or dozen: it doesn’t really affect the essence of your argument much. I’m just saying “city” because it’s shorter. Bruh.

No, the "half of a city" part is crucial to what I was arguing, because if that part was left out, I made it clear that there would be no inherent contradiction. But that part is mentioned unfortunately, ergo there is indeed a contradiction on the explosion's yield.

Says who?

Physics. The same physics that were used to calculate this feat to 5-A in the first place. If you don't think they should apply because "fiction", then you can't pick and choose only when it doesn't support your argument.

It is, however, plausible one for scaling purposes.

Not really. Even if it was the animators being "stupid", they still animated it, their intentions are unprovable unless you talk to them directly. Story takes priority when it comes to powerscaling, otherwise Invincible would be scaled higher than Superman.

AP ≠ DC for the billionth time.

Not in the case of natural explosions in which the formula used to estimate their yield requires you to input it's size, and the yield decreases or increases depending on that size, for the billionth time.

But even if you don’t like this argument, she never specifies how it will happen. Will city be pulverized? Atomized? Worse?

Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is that it would be destroyed in an explosion, just as the scene implies. Stop jumping to conclusions.

By your logic destruction is less than 9-B since it barely destroyed the gate and nothing else lmao. After going through the center of the planet too, somehow.

Uh, no, I did not say only the gate was destroyed, if you read carefully, I do link the part where numerous buildings behind are seen to get destroyed too. The point is that outside of that, most of Heaven remains in-tact with the vast majority of its buildings remaining undamaged. Also going through the center of the planet doesn't scale anywhere without context, we don't see what it does to Heaven's "center", assuming there's anything even there to begin with.

Ah yes, “YOU CAME HERE AND ATTACK MY DAUGHTER DON’T FORGET YOU ARE IN MY HOUSE” followed by “Dad I think he’s had enough” while having Demon Form, angry eyes, fire coming out, is definitely playing around.

Yes, because that's literally Lucifer's character, even in his Demon Form, and being mad is not the same as not holding back. And it doesn't even matter anyway, Adam literally gets the Invincible/Omni-Man treatment after that beatdown, the fact he "survives" does not scale him to Lucifer any more than Alastor not being killed by Adam one-shotting him scales Alastor to Adam.

You somehow made an argument even worse than “General of Exorcists was toying with Alastor the entire time to the point of refusing to no concept of diff that bum while clearly having angry face lololololoooool”, congrats.

So much of a "bad" argument that the very site we're arguing on right now hasn't accepted it yet, huh? Again, being "mad" does not mean you were holding back, and Adam absolutely did "no concept of diff"ed Alastor once he actually locked in. Adam intentionally does not no concept of diff Sinners because he loves torturing and then killing them.

I have no idea man. Ask someone who reads Marvel comics constantly.

I'll give you a hint; no, he doesn't. Spider-Man gave Kingpin the same level of beatdown Lucifer did to Adam. Look at these scans and ask me if Kingpin scales simply because he survived. Does that logic sound familiar?

 

[StoneKillerz12]

This is not even part of the OP. But you are right, he was so stomped that he dodged every single attack before being blinded by light attack and so stomped that he was able to harm him.

Just now realizing this was in reference to Alastor VS Adam, so my mistake on that.

Anyway this doesn't even matter anyway since this is not currently accepted on the wiki, we do not scale Alastor to Adam right now, at least to my knowledge. But in any case no, Alastor absolutely did not harm Adam, if you think having him stroke his chin after receiving zero damage counts as "harming", I really don't know what to tell you. It's also not at all unheard of for much stronger people to call people much weaker than them "tough shit", that does not make them on par with each other.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

agree found the upgrade wank. Shared feats do not scale linearliy not to mention alastor scaling to adam is no since he got stomped by adam.

BTW, I haven't even seen any concrete proof that draining the energy of something quantifies as a "feat" to begin with. Even if it did, the "feat' was accomplished through magic which is not synonymous with AP in the verse, and I haven't seen any evidence for a UES in Hazbin Hotel, and last time I checked it was outright rejected, so...

 

[StrymULTRA]

As someone who doesn't really give a shit about this verse, I think that given we're speaking of Tier 7 as a whole, given this thread was never completed.

This is...(for the part that matters), just simply not true. The feat that we used for the longest time to get the strongest characters to 7-A (before that calc was thrown out) and is now accepted as being Low 7-C here is derived from Adam, whom is currently accepted as downscaling from Lucifer, splitting the Hazbin Hotel. It's quite clear from the scene that this was absolutely not a "casual" feat by any means. Adam was getting visibly infuriated at Lucifer toying with and mocking him, was cussing him out veraciously, and then with a bruise on his face and a bloody nose shouted as he used both of his hands to fire what is clearly a full powered blast of holy light from his hands which accomplishes this feat.

I'd like to note that other than the Low 7-C cliff feat we have also the one where Adam casually obliterates Sir Pentious' ship.

The thing is either 8-A+, or straight up 7-C if we accept it being vaporization. I'd like to say that I still don't buy Adam having vaporized it, so this should be particulairly relevant as Adam has still heat hax with 3500 °C on his profile.

Discussion on whether Adam has vaporized the ship or not with his casual blast definitely would impact this argument a lot, as the entire argument of "he needed a lot of effort to perform a Low 7-C feat" just falls apart when he made prior a 7-C feat with no effort. HOWEVER, the argument would still stand if we accept Adam as not having vaporized the ship, as the casual feat would be instead just 8-A+, adding consistency with how the Low 7-C one took efforts.

 

[StrymULTRA]

This is double standards. You are saying Goku’s destruction feats are not meant to reflect his attack potency which is derived from other things, yet fail to provide why this can’t apply to MoL, instead stating it as a fact with no backup support argument.

Dragon Ball has a in-universe excuse for that, though.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Oh jeebus, I thought this was about the SCALING to the feat for a moment lol (That part's MY moment, MY ******* DESTINY)

To be frank, MoL only destroying “half of Pentagram City” while Overloading, meaning the energy is literally just being dumped everywhere, contradicts the 5-A feat no matter how you slice it (I know there are some calcs that place the Pentagram City stuff at 6-B, even High 6-A sometimes but still).
I dunno about the beam itself breaking KE rules though, afterall we know it shook the entire planet (While it was hitting the barrier and not the planet itself?)

 

[TheLooperB]

I'm agree with the main point, 5-A should be removed

 

[Electronic74947]

I agree ngl

 

[Alexander]

Agree with OP. The beam not actually doing shit to heaven is really the nail in the coffin for me. Watching.

It destroyed the barriers, that are has big has Heaven itself, and it was actually supposed to be able to destroy Heaven, the fact that it didn't kill anyone is pure luck

 

[StrymULTRA]

The Hellaverse Slander after this (it's only going to be worse ever since Adam lost to a Tier 8):

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Hazbin going a few days before their good scaling gets downgraded

 

[God_of_perversion]

The Hellaverse Slander after this (it's only going to be worse ever since Adam lost to a Tier 8):

I mean it was agaisnt Sans the butcher to be fair

 

[DaReaperMan]

5-A comes from a 40.46-second chrage time of the Might of Lilith and the KE shockwave effecting the clouds I believe it was.

The beam in this instance was charging for 1852.82 seconds. That is a difference of 45.79x.

Are you honestly claiming one of these shots, especially the one that was charging for longer, was multiple TRILLIONS of times weaker than the other? Hell, we aren't even given HOW it would destroy half the city, is it an explosion, a shot that goes through the planet, a shot that goes through the planet and is an explosion? Does it atomize? Vaporize? Frag?

Attack Potency does not equal Destructive Capacity, people. There are much better ways to argue against tier 5 than THAT.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Lowk most overlords should be tier 9 and sub/supersonic

 

[DaReaperMan]

Lowk most overlords should be tier 9 and sub/supersonic

I don't disagree but the feat acts how it acts for scaling...

But nah you're in FTL hell Jimbo.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean it was agaisnt Sans the butcher to be fair

Who is Sans?

 

[God_of_perversion]

Who is Sans?

Oh i just woke up sorry,i think i confused Alastor vs Sans

 

[Alexander]

you can't downgrade the verse to 9-B.

 

[StrymULTRA]

you can't downgrade the verse to 9-B.

Bet.

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

Disagree,
AP≠DC, and the explosion wouldn't have been a normal one, it's a bare minimum pulverizing, at best vaporizing energy that, due to how circles work, still had hell wide range. All that material being pulverized can still get close to planetary results and would still somewhat scale overlords.

Also, the beam being OVERCHARGED means it scales to its own planetary value(obviously). Y'know, the one that had a shockwave larger than a planet? The same one that should probably get planetary just of that DC? It also fits in with angels expanding the universe better and other statements made.

If you want to downgrade the feat, get a different and accepted calc, because the last time someone tried dunking on hazbin, they actually corrected the feat to large planetary.

I don't even disagree with scaling overlord physicals less, but their magic literally HAD to be that strong, Stolas is pretty similar in that regard.

Downgrade physicals all you want dude, I wouldn't care if that's what this was, but people like Alastor still have reasons to scale to Adam and everyone apparently can scale to Emily. Make arguments that have some sense.

 

[God_of_perversion]

5-A comes from a 40.46-second chrage time of the Might of Lilith and the KE shockwave effecting the clouds I believe it was.

The beam in this instance was charging for 1852.82 seconds. That is a difference of 45.79x.

Are you honestly claiming one of these shots, especially the one that was charging for longer, was multiple TRILLIONS of times weaker than the other? Hell, we aren't even given HOW it would destroy half the city, is it an explosion, a shot that goes through the planet, a shot that goes through the planet and is an explosion? Does it atomize? Vaporize? Frag?

Attack Potency does not equal Destructive Capacity, people. There are much better ways to argue against tier 5 than THAT.

You kinda of just suported the ops argument tbh,if the near 50× stronger beam only had energy to destroy half a city it suports the fact that the near 50× weaker beam wasn't truly 5A.And in this case "AP isn't DC" doesn't apply since thats not how the wiki treats explosions like this

 

[God_of_perversion]

Disagree,
AP≠DC, and the explosion wouldn't have been a normal one, it's a bare minimum pulverizing, at best vaporizing energy that, due to how circles work, still had hell wide range. All that material being pulverized can still get close to planetary results and would still somewhat scale overlords.

Also, the beam being OVERCHARGED means it scales to its own planetary value(obviously). Y'know, the one that had a shockwave larger than a planet? The same one that should probably get planetary just of that DC? It also fits in with angels expanding the universe better and other statements made.

If you want to downgrade the feat, get a different and accepted calc, because the last time someone tried dunking on hazbin, they actually corrected the feat to large planetary.

I don't even disagree with scaling overlord physicals less, but their magic literally HAD to be that strong, Stolas is pretty similar in that regard.

Downgrade physicals all you want dude, I wouldn't care if that's what this was, but people like Alastor still have reasons to scale to Adam and everyone apparently can scale to Emily. Make arguments that have some sense.

This also suports the OPs argument,if the near 50× weaker beam had a planetary level range/DC than why would the 50× stronger overcharged explosion have dozens of thousands of times weaker ranger/DC?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Bet.

It would be really funny. But you gotta do like 5 calcs for Alastor vs Vox.

You kinda of just suported the ops argument tbh,if the near 50× stronger beam only had energy to destroy half a city it suports the fact that the near 50× weaker beam wasn't truly 5A.And in this case "AP isn't DC" doesn't apply since thats not how the wiki treats explosions like this

In other words "I like this one feat over this other feaaaat!"

"Please ignore that this other feat is a statement and isnt on-screen, no wait--"

Feats>Statements.

 

[God_of_perversion]

It would be really funny. But you gotta do like 5 calcs for Alastor vs Vox.

In other words "I like this one feat over this other feaaaat!"

"Please ignore that this other feat is a statement and isnt on-screen, no wait--"

Feats>Statements.

Holy circular reasoning

 

[DaReaperMan]

Holy circular reasoning

We have one feat on-screen, the other feat is a statement. I'll wait for your non-statement-only Might of Lilith please. Because there is only one, and it's tier 5.

 

[God_of_perversion]

Oh yeah btw the wiki doesn't allow contradictions like that for scaling so a 5A attack becoming 50× stronger but being stated to not even be city level wouldn't be allowed,unless of course you can prove that statement doesn't come from á valid source but considering that wasn't your go too argument i doubt you can prove that