• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Helluva Fast Downgrades (Hellaverse Tier 5 Removal)

Status
Not open for further replies.
StoneKillerz12 said:
Recently, like, very recently, it was accepted in this thread that the vast majority of Hazbin Hotel (and some Helluva Boss) characters would be getting upgraded to 5-B and then later in this thread to 5-A, due to a showing in the finale involving the Might of Lilith piercing the barrier to Heaven. At first glance, the feat does seem valid when statements involving Heaven being a "planet" are taken into account, but there are multiple issues that, from what I've seen, have yet to be addressed here. So enough yapping and let's get into those as quickly as possible, starting with the first part of the initial thread:


This is...(for the part that matters), just simply not true. The feat that we used for the longest time to get the strongest characters to 7-A (before that calc was thrown out) and is now accepted as being Low 7-C here is derived from Adam, whom is currently accepted as downscaling from Lucifer, splitting the Hazbin Hotel. It's quite clear from the scene that this was absolutely not a "casual" feat by any means. Adam was getting visibly infuriated at Lucifer toying with and mocking him, was cussing him out veraciously, and then with a bruise on his face and a bloody nose shouted as he used both of his hands to fire what is clearly a full powered blast of holy light from his hands which accomplishes this feat. It does not matter if any of the other feats beneath this are casual when the highest rated one is not. If a top-tier's highest feat is Low 7-C, then a sudden jump of orders of magnitude by at least a billion times (probably higher, but you get the point), then that absolutely qualifies any Tier 5 feats as an outlier. But anyway, this is not the sole issue with the Might of Lilith or characters scaling to it, anyway. Let's get into that now.

My main issue with this feat is that the supposed 5-A scale just inherently contradicts not only the visuals of the scene, but also the explicitly stated destructive capacity of the MoL overheating, the thing we are actually scaling the characters to. When the Might of Lilith's beam shatters the barrier and pierces through Heaven itself, barely any destruction beyond destroying the gate and knocking back Saint Peter a bit and vaguely destroying a couple of buildings is what we see. During Vox's speech in the aftermath, little to none of Heaven's major buildings are even remotely damaged and there doesn't even seem to be anyone with any major injuries either. All of this explicitly breaks our Kinetic Energy guidelines, and there have been other similar feats in other verses that have been rejected for these very reasons. But unfortunately, there's more:



The major problem here is that, again, the Overheat being anywhere near Tier 5 explicitly contradicts what the intended destructive scale would be. Let's take a look at what Carmilla, the person who designed the Might of Lilith in the first place, has to say about what would happen.


Carmilla clearly tells Vox that the Might of Lilith exploding would destroy...half of Pentagram City. Not even all of Hell as a whole, not even the entirety of Pentagram City itself. Just half of it. You really can't dismiss this as Carmilla just speaking in flowery language or dumbing it down or whatever, she is very much trying to talk Vox out of what he's doing for everyone's safety. I'm pretty sure her explaining that it would blow up literally all of Hell or at least, explode with a description significantly greater than "half of a city" to get her point across more effectively. You would not be telling a terrorist not to let a nuclear bomb off by telling them it would destroy half of a small town with it, you would tell them it would end the world. You also can't really claim Carmilla is underestimating it or doesn't know what she's talking about for obvious reasons, either. She designed this weapon and it's a consistent plot point involving her that she's one of the only people in Hell who knows how powerful Heaven is.

So...yeah. As much as it pains me to say this, this feat being anywhere near Tier 5 is just completely inconsistent with the visual scale and narratively implied scale of the Might of Lilith exploding, so at the very least, the current interpretation of this feat simply doesn't work. What I would probably suggest is instead calculating the yield of destroying half of pentagram city and only scaling characters to that. Unless there are other arguments in support of this feat that I was not aware of, I'm pretty heavily inclined to believe this feat goes against Kinetic Energy guidelines.

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:
Click to expand...
Been waiting for something like this to drop, cause honestly I haven't like the could KE calc since day one for a variety of reasons.
  • The clouds in the scene we use to quantify the feat don't seem to accurately represent what the beam is doing. They kind of just kind of just appear after the impact frames, and are expanding MUCH slower than the calc would have you believe. As a matter of fact, heaven does have clouds surrounding it, but they seem undeterred.
  • Beyond just the clouds, the MoL has little to no effect on any of the surrounding area. We only see the gate sustain significant damage and get launched like the clouds (which honestly might be a better avenue for calculating its casual power). Even when we see it used in hell, it has absolutely no explosive effect and simply tears through buildings casually.
  • The calc assume Heaven is entirely Earth-like, which isn't entirely unfounded but also probably a bit of an exaggeration.
I also agree with the idea that the scaling for the MoL doesn't make sense, since we currently have its casual power exceeding its overloading power. As a side note, since I don't know how or where else to bring it up, I really don't think Lucifer should scale to the whole MoL just because it is his energy which powers it. We see multiple times that the siphoning of his power to use the machine significantly harms and weakens him, implying that the amount of energy it can exert far exceeds what he can ordinarily do on his own. So, if we DO go through with this change and make the overlords scale to their shared power stopping the overloading MoL, he should simply upscale the overlords and be listed "at most" as powerful as the machine's maximum output.
 
Greatsage13th said:
What @Chritin brought up does have some merit to it. What does everyone else think?
Click to expand...
Don't really care about arguing about the KE thing(It does have a decent point but I'm neutral overall) but my primary argument against Lucifer's scaling is that he was mostly unbothered doing the feat originally for the MoL, and was only exhausted after it was being constantly fired for like ten minutes straight.

The low-end is there for him for a reason. For it to fire it takes about twenty seconds, so divide by 20, or fourty for the main MoL feat...

Think of Lucifer as a big battery. he can do split second bursts all day, but if you put strain on it constantly it's gonna fizzle out. It's an anti-feat against him having Superhuman stamina if anything, and lo and behold, he doesn't.
 
DaReaperMan said:
Don't really care about arguing about the KE thing(It does have a decent point but I'm neutral overall) but my primary argument against Lucifer's scaling is that he was mostly unbothered doing the feat originally for the MoL, and was only exhausted after it was being constantly fired for like ten minutes straight.

The low-end is there for him for a reason. For it to fire it takes about twenty seconds, so divide by 20, or fourty for the main MoL feat...

Think of Lucifer as a big battery. he can do split second bursts all day, but if you put strain on it constantly it's gonna fizzle out. It's an anti-feat against him having Superhuman stamina if anything, and lo and behold, he doesn't.
Click to expand...
I mean he still commented how it did not feel good exerting that much energy. He still got hurt, even if it wasn't completely disabling like when Vox was repeatedly firing it at Alastor.

Honestly, my point is more so that if Lucifer doesn't scale to a charged output of the machine, then there is less of a reliance for us to use a feat off of its firing. It's much better to use the way more consistent feat of the overlords stopping its overheating.
 
Chritin said:
I mean he still commented how it did not feel good exerting that much energy. He still got hurt, even if it wasn't completely disabling like when Vox was repeatedly firing it at Alastor.
Click to expand...
He literally said it was "bad tickle" to him. Come on. Little kids can tickle adults, wouldn't mean adults can't scale to those kids or that kids can scale to adults.
Chritin said:
Honestly, my point is more so that if Lucifer doesn't scale to a charged output of the machine, then there is less of a reliance for us to use a feat off of its firing.
Click to expand...
Just because something is convenient doesn't make it right though.
 
Chritin said:
I mean he still commented how it did not feel good exerting that much energy. He still got hurt, even if it wasn't completely disabling like when Vox was repeatedly firing it at Alastor.

Honestly, my point is more so that if Lucifer doesn't scale to a charged output of the machine, then there is less of a reliance for us to use a feat off of its firing. It's much better to use the way more consistent feat of the overlords stopping its overheating.
Click to expand...
He referred to the first shot as a bad tingle. Not exactly what you'd call an adverse effect.

Said tingle happened across over FOURTY SECONDS. Don't believe me? Agnaa already did the math and fed me which number he'd like used for Lucifer in DMs, which was 40.46 seconds. So yes, this is straight up a stamina problem for Lucifer, not a stats problem for him.

There's a reason him fully scaling to the blast is under a "Possibly" anyways.
 
I'm going to write one last long reply, but I'm too lazy. Regarding what Christin said, he's minimally right, but mostly wrong.
 
DaReaperMan said:
He referred to the first shot as a bad tingle. Not exactly what you'd call an adverse effect.
Click to expand...
I can not stress this enough, that is quite literally an adverse effect. It hurt, and I don't see why we are arguing this.

DaReaperMan said:
Said tingle happened across over FOURTY SECONDS. Don't believe me? Agnaa already did the math and fed me which number he'd like used for Lucifer in DMs, which was 40.46 seconds. So yes, this is straight up a stamina problem for Lucifer, not a stats problem for him.

There's a reason him fully scaling to the blast is under a "Possibly" anyways.
Click to expand...
Honestly with regard to a timeframe, I don't know why you are going with 40 seconds for the timeframe for when it STARTS to hurt. He says it actually starts to hurt him IMMEDIATELY after saying it tickles, not after the machine id done firing.
 
Chritin said:
I can not stress this enough, that is quite literally an adverse effect. It hurt, and I don't see why we are arguing this.

Honestly with regard to a timeframe, I don't know why you are going with 40 seconds for the timeframe for when it STARTS to hurt. He says it actually starts to hurt him IMMEDIATELY after saying it tickles, not after the machine id done firing.
Click to expand...
He said it tickles then realized it was probably a bad tickle.

If someone tickles your side, is that what you'd call an adverse effect that makes that person beat you in a fight?
 
This will be my final comment regarding CRT's response, at least for large answers. Honestly, I'm incredibly lazy about doing it, but it's better to write everything down than to keep dwelling on it later, especially since I still owe some answers. Honestly, it should have more attachments, like reference images and videos, in addition to the outlier rules themselves, but I'm lazy, I'm on my phone, and I have things to do, so it'll have to do. There might be a mistake or two, or some repetition, but I'm not going to rewrite it.

The faat they want to dismiss in question:

Firstly, regarding the vacuum of space and the comparison with Earth and Heaven.

Yes, Heaven is declared a Planet/Universe just as the moon of the pentagram is declared a Moon/Sun of Hell, which, along with the quote of 100 billion victorious souls and extinct animals, makes the planetary size completely plausible. However, this does not mean that Heaven is the same as Earth; Heaven is not just a planet, but the first place of creation, with giant halos, giant wing-shaped clouds, located in the Ring of Pride. Yes, to begin with, Heaven is in the Ring of Pride, literally being below the giant Pentagram above the Pentagram City; it is not extremely far away in outer space, it is in the Ring of Pride, above the Pentagram City.

Regarding the supposed vacuum of space, I'll have to give a brief explanation about meteoroids: "When a meteoroid, comet, or asteroid enters Earth's atmosphere at a speed typically exceeding 20 km/s (72,000 km/h), the aerodynamic heating of that object produces a beam of light, both from the bright object and from the trail of bright particles it leaves in its wake." Okay, very interesting, but what is aerodynamic heating? Well, Wikipedia also answers that: "It is the heating of a solid body produced by the passage of a fluid (such as air) over a body, such as a meteor, missile, or airplane. It is a form of forced convection in which the flow field is created by forces beyond those associated with thermal processes."

Considering these explanations, why did the Gates of Heaven, upon leaving their orbit and traveling all the way to fall into the City of the Pentagram, resemble a meteoroid, undergoing aerodynamic heating? Could it be that, perhaps by chance, logically, obviously, explicitly, there is no vacuum between Heaven and Hell, and in fact, everything is filled with air up to at least that Red Pentagram...? And when I say it's obvious, it's not just because of the physical phenomenon explained, no, it's also because the images clearly show air circulating around Paradise:

So no, there's no such thing as "but there's the vacuum of space, there can't be air, there can't be water, there can't be clouds," Heaven is not Earth, and it doesn't possess that characteristic. Just as the barometric formula doesn't work for this model either, since the amount of air in Hell/Heaven is much greater than on Earth, which would obviously affect the formula that calculates density based on altitude, in addition to gravity, since it doesn't work the way it does on Earth (if it did, Heaven would simply fall into the Ring of Pride along with the Pentagram Moon).

In short: There is no vacuum of space around Heaven, only the atmosphere of Hell. Gravity doesn't work properly, with at least up to the halos of Heaven, Heaven itself being the gravitational attractor, and beyond that, it being itself, which is explicit with the Gates falling.

Sources.

Meteoroids - https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteoroide

Aerodynamic Heating - https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquecimento_aerodinâmico

Barometric Formula - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barometric_formula#Density_equations


Secondly, regarding the supposed destruction that invalidates the KE

Starting by debunking the argument about wasted energy, no, there was no energy loss after the Shield was broken. The Might of Lilith beam collided with Heaven's shield, generating an expansion of clouds and an earthquake throughout Heaven. Then the shield broke, the beam entered Heaven, grazed the entrance gate, catapulting it out of orbit, and finally exited Heaven, generating an even larger cloud expansion. In other words, the beam showed the same level of power consistently; there was no energy loss that would justify the supposed destruction caused in Heaven. However, this not only doesn't prove that the KE is invalid, but it proves that the "main obstacle" to the KE is actually the only inconsistent thing here.

The beam collided with Heaven, generating a level 5 feat and another at least level 6 (the cloud expansion and the tremor). The beam leaves Paradise, generating another level 5 feat (second cloud expansion). But it supposedly only destroys a few buildings? With the tremor from the collision even being greater than the tremor of the beam when it supposedly hit Heaven, supposedly destroying a few buildings? Curiously, it seems that the only supposedly inconsistent thing in the feat is the destruction caused in Heaven itself, and not the rest that they are proposing to discard. The supposed destruction caused in Heaven is also inconsistent with the destruction caused in the Pentagram itself, where the beam extended for kilometers, destroying everything in its path.

But the reason I'm repeating "supposedly" all the time is because the only destruction the beam caused was destroying the gate, nothing more. The scene that's supposed to show the beam destroying buildings only shows it passing after destroying the gate. There's no disintegration effect used to show the beam destroying whatever it touches, much less the sound of destruction. Simply put, nothing is hit in the scene. The buildings in the background that you probably think were destroyed are still there in the background and weren't hit. Literally, the beam only ripped the gates off Heaven; it didn't destroy any buildings. I'm not trying to say that the buildings the beam hit have 5-B durability (which is possible in fiction, by the way), especially since the beam didn't hit any buildings.

[Link to YouTube video: ]

And all of this is narratively consistent. Vox never intended to destroy Heaven or kill any of Heaven's population with the attack. The attack had the clear, obvious, and explicit objective of destroying the gate of Heaven solely and exclusively, thus gaining greater support from sinners while threatening Heaven itself. "Ah, but why does he need so much energy if he's not going to destroy anything?" Could it be because there's a shield made by 6 seraphim that needs to be broken to reach the gates? Vox doesn't want, nor does he need, to destroy Heaven; he wants to have 100 billion victorious souls to serve him, he wants to reach the position of God. If he had shot right at the center of Paradise and killed a bunch of victors, the seraphim, archangels, and exorcists would automatically react to wage war, and Vox didn't yet have the full support of the population. By reaching the gates, Vox opens a passage for a possible army, threatens Paradise with MoL in the same way countries do with atomic bombs, gains popular support, and all this without even starting a war immediately.

Obviously, the fact that the gates "survived" the impact is an achievement of the gates, not an anti-feat for MoL. I don't have to explain why MoL doesn't become level 8 because the gates weren't pulverized, right? It's obvious that the gates don't have the durability of a regular gate.

"No, but there were buildings behind the Gate in the first season, they must have been destroyed." There's no way to argue with something that wasn't shown. And if any building were destroyed and a victorious angel were killed, it would be a perfect argument for Lute to start a war. If Vox had actually hit hundreds or thousands of victors, innocent souls would be directly killed, which would obviously be noticed, but nobody even thinks about that. Everyone—Sera, Emily, Lute and Abel in Heaven, the Vees, or the people at the Hazbin Hotel—only thinks about the destruction of the gate and the threat of Vox, which is what was shown.

In summary: The only thing destroyed in Heaven were the gates; nothing else was shown, mentioned, or implied to be destroyed. Vox did not intend to destroy part of Heaven by killing victors, but solely and exclusively to destroy the Shield and the Gates. Basically, it's like glancing a shot at Heaven to take down the gate.

Now, regarding simpler and smaller points to answer.

Forgive me for saying that Heaven might have greater durability because it's a fictional planet, because the supposed destruction if it existed would be inconsistent, and because it's the first place of creation (which, honestly, is totally valid). In fact, Heaven IS more resistant than usual; this is literally shown with Sir Pentious trying to drill into the ground and failing miserably.

[Link to YouTube video: ]

Furthermore, it makes sense that angelic steel is an abundant mineral on Heaven; it's the place where all the material comes from.

Regarding Adam's feat proving that level 5 feats are outliers, the calculation only calculates the minimum result, and even disregarding that, there are 2 level 5 feats, 1 level 6 feat, and a quote of at least level 6, against a level 7 feat, so meh, Adam's feat being at least small town is completely irrelevant.

Regarding the calculation being wrong, yes, it is. It uses the density of water incorrectly, it doesn't use the specific KE formula for expansion, it disregards the volume of air, and it doesn't calculate the other feats.

My problem isn't with disregarding this calculation and playing it safe, like just taking the planet-shaking feat or the quote and using the multipliers. My problem is with denying the entire feat and the possibility of KE, when it's the most coherent way to calculate it, all based on a completely justifiable narrative and logical inconsistency. That's why I disagree with CRT, even knowing the calculation is wrong.

Finally, regarding Lucifer not scaling, Vox literally kept Might of Lilith activated for several minutes, and Lucifer only started to tire of shooting when Vox pierced him with several needles to draw more power, and even then he continued shooting until he hit Emily/Alastor.

To summarize even further: Since the only unique and exceptional thing is the supposed destruction caused in Heaven, and this destruction is completely justifiable narratively and logically, in my opinion, the 3 feats involving Might of Lilith hitting Heaven are completely usable.👍😃

Edit - For any strange speech, blame Google Translate.
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
6914Vqe.png
VRju8jB.png

It replicated the same Tier 5 cloud split after breaking the shield.
Click to expand...
How are we arguing this isn't planetary? the actual shockwave itself is literally bigger than a planet by such a ridiculous margin, even if this CRT (somehow) gets accepted, no one would take Luci being at most only High 6-C seriously with a blatant feat like this one
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Tbf most writers don't realize how heavy clouds are
Click to expand...
Genuinely don't even care about the clouds, just the 2 shockwaves before, after, and the beam literally being multiple times longer than a planet make me not take this CRT seriously, I get having gripes with scaling all the mid tiers to it and not selectively, but nuking an at least moon level feat for the guy who has multiple higher implications is really weird.

Then again, I do have the option to just not use that value in off site debates so whatever, I just don't want his page to get the Murder Drones treatment
 
I'll make myself alluded because I asked the question, so.

OiEuSouDuvi said:
Considering these explanations, why did the Gates of Heaven, upon leaving their orbit and traveling all the way to fall into the City of the Pentagram, resemble a meteoroid, undergoing aerodynamic heating? Could it be that, perhaps by chance, logically, obviously, explicitly, there is no vacuum between Heaven and Hell, and in fact, everything is filled with air up to at least that Red Pentagram...?
Click to expand...
No.

Like, is this to say that there's air between heaven and hell because an object that left heaven light on fire remained as such all the way throught? Then no, sounds pretty much like a stretch.

(Bump I guess)
 
Monkey_Dunno said:
I'll make myself alluded because I asked the question, so.


No.

Like, is this to say that there's air between heaven and hell because an object that left heaven light on fire remained as such all the way throught? Then no, sounds pretty much like a stretch.

(Bump I guess)
Click to expand...
Um... you know how fire works, right? Shit needs oxygen. What does space not have?
 
DaReaperMan said:
Um... you know how fire works, right? Shit needs oxygen. What does space not have?
Click to expand...
So the only logical explanation of fiction that visually represents shooting stars or meteors light in fire in space is that such cosmologies have air in their vacuums? Nice to know.
 
Monkey_Dunno said:
So the only logical explanation of fiction that visually represents shooting stars
Click to expand...
...You...

Okay do you know even the bare ******* basics of the shit you bring up? Shooting Stars are literally small pieces of rock or dust that go fast into our atmosphere, get lit up like a christmas tree, and evaporate. Real life isn't Terraria.
Monkey_Dunno said:
or meteors light in fire in space is that such cosmologies have air in their vacuums? Nice to know.
Click to expand...
Meteors lighting on fire in space is genuinely incoherent for the same reason I just brought up. If it happened more than once, sure, but we don't even know how far Heaven and Hell are from eachother usually lmfao
 
DaReaperMan said:
...You...

Okay do you know even the bare ******* basics of the shit you bring up? Shooting Stars are literally small pieces of rock or dust that go fast into our atmosphere, get lit up like a christmas tree, and evaporate.
Click to expand...

Monkey_Dunno said:
So the only logical explanation of fiction that visually represents shooting stars or meteors light in fire in space is that such cosmologies have air in their vacuums?
Click to expand...

DaReaperMan said:
Meteors lighting on fire in space is genuinely incoherent for the same reason I just brought up. If it happened more than once, sure, but we don't even know how far Heaven and Hell are from eachother usually lmfao
Click to expand...
Let me make it simplier. How do characters talk in space in fiction?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

TugiaTheNarrator
Hazbin Hotel Downgrade
Replies
6
Views
611
Mythic381
Mythic381
Anonymous_Learner
  • Locked
Hellaverse Mega CRT (Concluded and Applied)
4 5 6
Replies
232
Views
15K
OmenISTIRED
OmenISTIRED
StrymULTRA
  • Locked
An archangel's fall - Massive Adam downgrades (Hazbin Hotel)
2 3
Replies
113
Views
7K
StrymULTRA
StrymULTRA
Eden_Warlock99
  • Locked
The Short Awaited Hazbin Hotel Season 2 Downgrade (Part 1. "The only way I know how… SONG!”)
6 7 8
Replies
314
Views
21K
Eden_Warlock99
Eden_Warlock99
StoneKillerz12
Hazbin Hotel Minor Downgrade: Not So Bright After All
2
Replies
66
Views
4K
Mythic381
Mythic381
Back
Top