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Helluva Fast Downgrades (Hellaverse Tier 5 Removal)

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Wasn't 8-B+ Shok.wav just from him flying to help his daddy anyways, i.e. so casual that I can cry? I don't think that it can be limiting factor.

I wonder if we should even argue about this here though, since OP doesn't offer any substitutions to 5-A and is just "nah nuke it", so idk if it'll even go to Tier 7 or 9 anyways. And Low 7-C Alastor calc is kinda unaccepted rn, technically.
 
Wasn't 8-B+ Shok.wav just from him flying to help his daddy anyways, i.e. so casual that I can cry? I don't think that it can be limiting factor.

I wonder if we should even argue about this here though, since OP doesn't offer any substitutions to 5-A and is just "nah nuke it", so idk if it'll even go to Tier 7 or 9 anyways. And Low 7-C Alastor calc is kinda unaccepted rn, technically.
Shouldn't be hard to get it accepted. The only reason it was removed was due to someone thinking that AL didn't cause it for some reason. But that's old news. 1 crt and its back.
 
Wasn't 8-B+ Shok.wav just from him flying to help his daddy anyways, i.e. so casual that I can cry? I don't think that it can be limiting factor.
Shok.wav is 100% Vox-level and those guys scale to no one else, so it's less a limiting factor and more that there's no link in the first place
I wonder if we should even argue about this here though, since OP doesn't offer any substitutions to 5-A and is just "nah nuke it"
We got an accepted MoL calc, so that Ig

The scaling stuff is definitely derailing tho
 
That's for 100% Demon Form Vox. There's quite a MASSIVE difference between that and S1 Vox. Gigantic even.
Still not even a 20x difference lmfao
Yeah, by ripping their souls or whatever, which he can't do to people he don't own.
Oh, so Alastor has SI good enough to make any old Overlord who've been around for centuries and have egos to back it up just give it up cause they lost once?

Funny how this extreme SI is never implied before, during, or since, huh?
That's why Alastor doesn't have Soul Manip on his page?
Oh you sweet summer child, this is simply the only explanation possible for this conundrum.
Like almost EVERYTHING Alastor does, even the tentacle that Sir Pentious survived. Weird, ain't it?
Pentious didn't, he revived. The Overlords Alastor gutted didn't.
Also as much as Alastor denies it, they've been friends for years. Kinda a huge difference doing that to a rando and to someone like that.
Eden. Vox died in the early 1950s. They were friends for less than a year.
Like please, the Overlords thought LUCIFER beat Alastor when they heard the news, they were surprised it was Vox, this is not someone who has gone toe-to-toe with Al lol
I didn't say "Base Vox~FP Alastor", I said "Base Vox<<Casual, maybe slightly annoyed FP Alastor".
 
Shok.wav is 100% Vox-level and those guys scale to no one else, so it's less a limiting factor and more that there's no link in the first place

We got an accepted MoL calc, so that Ig

The scaling stuff is definitely derailing tho
This is literally all about scaling. Don't pull a murder drones pls. That page still makes me sick to look at...
 
Wasn't 8-B+ Shok.wav just from him flying to help his daddy anyways, i.e. so casual that I can cry? I don't think that it can be limiting factor.

I wonder if we should even argue about this here though, since OP doesn't offer any substitutions to 5-A and is just "nah nuke it", so idk if it'll even go to Tier 7 or 9 anyways. And Low 7-C Alastor calc is kinda unaccepted rn, technically.
I'm fine with High 6-C, I already said this. 6-C for the Overlords who scale to it, 7-B for everyone else.
 
Like what I said to OrangeGuy, no, because the basis of that Tier 2's scaling is not based off of that explosion. In the case of that Tier 2, the explosion would be scaled to that level specifically because we have other pieces of evidence to scale that Tier 2 to Tier 2. It could also just not be a full power feat for the Tier 2 either. If you could prove it was, and someone survived it while also fighting that Tier 2, then that's just how scaling works.

It's not the same here because the basis for the Tier 5 scaling is specifically hingent upon itself; the kinetic energy of the blast being fired. If the Might of Lilith had previous concrete scaling outside of its biggest feat that provided evidence for it being Tier 5, then we wouldn't need to be talking about the visual contradictions. But when the scaling is specifically hingent upon something which violates KE guidelines (not simply AP =/= DC), it's very much safe to bring up that what we use to scale the blast is inconsistent with we measure its yield to be.
The AP =/= DC guideline applies even with tier 5. Characters are not mandatory to pull Tier 5 lvls of destruction or KE feats just to scale
 
You guys should probably stop derailing and focus on the main issue rn.
If you unblocked me on Discord, I'd be more than willing to discuss it with you to see if we can find common ground.

I know this is definitely off-topic, but I do apologize for the fiasco back on the MegaMan X Fandom server. I misjudged the situation and did not read the argument completely, it was very much not right of me to assume you were in the wrong for being abrasive. I have no real room to talk either given how many times I've been in that position with other people even on that server and eventually this thread.
 
That wasn't my point. I mean stop talking about other stuff and reply to the main arguments from OP.
I did, its dumb, but if majority says YAY, I can't do nuthin (and Al will still be tier 7)
To be quite honest, I'm just too lazy lol. That and I don't feel like updating it every hour or so.
Which is why it should be tracked, otherwise the people who agree get drowned out and mods don't see the current vote and where it leans
 
If you unblocked me on Discord, I'd be more than willing to discuss it with you to see if we can find common ground.
I mentioned that my internet isn't working and probably wouldn't for 3 more days, and I suck at texting/arguing on phone, so I probably wouldn't be on discord for a while.
I know this is definitely off-topic, but I do apologize for the fiasco back on the MegaMan X Fandom server. I misjudged the situation and did not read the argument completely, it was very much not right of me to assume you were in the wrong for being abrasive. I have no real room to talk either given how many times I've been in that position with other people even on that server and eventually this thread.
No worries, we can talk that later. I also apologize for just immediately blocking you.
 
Still not even a 20x difference lmfao
???
Regular Vox and the other Overbums are going to be 9-A, 100% Vox is going to be 8-B. You get me now?
Oh, so Alastor has SI good enough to make any old Overlord who've been around for centuries and have egos to back it up just give it up cause they lost once?
Torture. Just like torturing them.
Or you know what? His whole shtick is that he's a deal maker, you can't see any universe where he doesn't a pull fast one on them lol
Oh you sweet summer child, this is simply the only explanation possible for this conundrum.
Go ahead. Give me one.
Pentious didn't, he revived. The Overlords Alastor gutted didn't.
Low-Godly regen negation for Alastor! That's the only explanation duh
Eden. Vox died in the early 1950s. They were friends for less than a year.
This changes so much, damn. Like obviously murdering someone you've been friends with for 2 years, no that's impossible. But only 1 year? That's a cakewalk lol
I didn't say "Base Vox~FP Alastor", I said "Base Vox<<Casual, maybe slightly annoyed FP Alastor".
You know why the Adam and Alastor downscaling works? Cause we actually see Alastor make Adam feel pain, even if it's minor, it's still pain.

You know what we don't see? Vox doing ANYTHING to Alastor, ANYTHING AT ALL.
It's downscaling ENTIRELY carried "Well he SHOULDN'T be that much weaker" Not a single shred of evidence. And that's why it's a HORRIBLE idea.
 
???
Regular Vox and the other Overbums are going to be 9-A, 100% Vox is going to be 8-B. You get me now?
Ah, I see, so you forget that Weakened Alastor took damage beyond getting punched in a weak point in the Al vs Vees fight, and felt the need to dodge Vox teleporting onto him.

After all, one of your main anti-feats was Husk being threatened by guns and using cover, was it not? 8-B scales to the rest of the Overlords too! They just downscale from a feat that came from literally moving. So they just scale to the number directly.
Torture. Just like torturing them.
Rando sinners can be torn apart and regenerate from it while maybe slightly bothered. Torture does not work in hell.
Or you know what? His whole shtick is that he's a deal maker, you can't see any universe where he doesn't a pull fast one on them lol
You know, you hark on me for not a lick of proof, then ya do shit like this. Pick one.
Go ahead. Give me one.
That Alastor can soulfuck people when they're injured. AKA, who have lost to him
Low-Godly regen negation for Alastor! That's the only explanation duh
Except we have Pentious coming back after dying, so that does not apply.
This changes so much, damn. Like obviously murdering someone you've been friends with for 2 years, no that's impossible. But only 1 year? That's a cakewalk lol
And someone Alastor went on the minute-long roast not even 5 seconds before for thinking they were friends.

The minute someone shows Alastor weakness, he will exploit the **** out of it and view them with utter contempt. He's shown this many times.
You know why the Adam and Alastor downscaling works? Cause we actually see Alastor make Adam feel pain, even if it's minor, it's still pain.

You know what we don't see? Vox doing ANYTHING to Alastor, ANYTHING AT ALL.
It's downscaling ENTIRELY carried "Well he SHOULDN'T be that much weaker" Not a single shred of evidence. And that's why it's a HORRIBLE idea.
Oh, so when YOU make wild assumptions, it's fine, but when I do it its a "Horrible Idea".
 
Not needed, this is different case since this is about KE of the metal ball doing no destruction, here we are measuring blast's AP via side KE effects, and the blast should've wasted most of its energy on shield and KE anyways.
As for the explosion...
Not what I said. I said that natural explosions...
Notice how it is about natural explosions, not the ones caused by supernatural means.
Please tell me what other interpretation the phrase "it will blow" implies other than it exploding.
When did I argue against this lmao.
And as I said above, the reason those explosions are even that tier at all is specifically due to its size. The only reason those explosions are 8-A and Low 7-C respectively is specifically because of us measuring their size and inputting that radius into an explosive formula. Your basis is that the yield of those explosions can be multiple times higher than the radius of destruction they extend to, yet you don't scale these explosions any higher than what is specifically derived from their size. Also, the latter "Low 7-C" explosion was rejected like, several months ago lmao.
Calcs are, once again, mere estimates. And as me and Reaper told you, we don't know what type of destruction would it cause. Frag, pulv, vap, atomization, worse?

Also as Reaper and DeadlyMonarchSmth (sorry but name is long) noted long time ago, Carmilla didn't know a flipping Lucifer would source it. So she surely didn't know how powerful it would be, thus further making it extreme lowball.
Cool, so surely you can show me an example of an accepted calculation on this wiki where the energy produced by an explosion is scaled billions of times higher than the yield the explosion itself was calculated at, yes?
Yeah, Pyrope has 9-B explosions yet he himself is High 8-C via chainscaling. Mind blowing, isn't it?
No, not "my logic" whatsoever. I told you already multiple times that it did destroy Buildings, just not any major ones let alone most of them.
If we go by your logic and assume it's all MoL can do, then Vox is stupid since it can barely destroy buildings, while Неаven is a planet larger than Hell with its 100B inhabitants.

But in reality, it just wasted most of its AP on shield and KE feat.
Yes, in the case of definitions on Google, which can absolutely be wrong.
I guess Oxford Languages is unreliable source because... uh... some rando on VSBW said so.
Yes! This is exactly what my point is. If real world physics shouldn't matter when it comes to talking about feats in fiction, then it should not matter when we try to calculate them either
Good luck making staff discussion threads that nukes every single calculation ever because 99.99999999999999999% of fiction gives zero stuff to Einstein's theory of relativity!
Not what my point was. The point is that authors would only be "stupid" under the objectively fan-made assumption that the blast was 5-B
No, it's stupid because it shows going through the center of the planet but then it doesn't.
It is. You're rejecting the idea that an explosion cannot produce billions of times greater energy than what the size of it predicts its yield to be by stating that "This is fiction, who cares what physics has to say!"
Calcs are mere low-end estimates, this is why I'm rejecting stuff.

Nobody here is gonna downgrade a character for him showing destruction far less than he has AP for. Otherwise, we would always accept the lowest calc possible (which would usually be around Tier 10-9).
They didn't write Superman last time I checked lol. So who even bothers to care.
The power source is irrelevant, it's still ultimately a machine exploding.
No, it's relevant? Normal explosions get their source from pure physics mechanics, this takes its source, i.e. ALL OF ITS FUNCTIONING, explicitly from the supernatural entity, so...?
You mean the guy who supposedly scales equivalently to the person who made that scar, the guy who everyone tells Alastor he was no match for?
Where did I tell you that they are equivalent LMAO, you're just saying stuff I never stated
being angry =/= bloodlusted
Being mad =/= not holding back
this-shit-so-ass-v0-olqfa3zhplwc1.jpeg

I don't care at all about Invincible, but there's a bloody difference having your face obliterated and lake of blood around it versus enduring the attacks and straight up standing and being able to talk after them.
 
Ah, I see, so you forget that Weakened Alastor took damage beyond getting punched in a weak point in the Al vs Vees fight, and felt the need to dodge Vox teleporting onto him.

After all, one of your main anti-feats was Husk being threatened by guns and using cover, was it not? 8-B scales to the rest of the Overlords too! They just downscale from a feat that came from literally moving. So they just scale to the number directly.
Yeah, cause the fight where Alastor is ACTING and TRYING to lose, is a GREAT indicator of his power =]

Oh also he was in his Demon Form when he was fighting 100% Vox. Which we accept as being stronger than his base. So sad.
Rando sinners can be torn apart and regenerate from it while maybe slightly bothered. Torture does not work in hell.
They still feel pain???
That Alastor can soulfuck people when they're injured. AKA, who have lost to him
And the evidence for that? And why it only works on someone who's injured? And why it couldn't have been with a deal? And why he doesn't have Soul Manip on his profile?
Except we have Pentious coming back after dying, so that does not apply.
It has a turn on and off switch, duh.
And someone Alastor went on the minute-long roast not even 5 seconds before for thinking they were friends.
And that proves he'd murder him willy-nilly? Really?
Oh, so when YOU make wild assumptions, it's fine, but when I do it its a "Horrible Idea".

So you admit it's a wild assumption
 
And the evidence for that? And why it only works on someone who's injured? And why it couldn't have been with a deal? And why he doesn't have Soul Manip on his profile?
"Your screams will make for a satisfying broadcast" and we know he does it via "tearing soul apart" from Husk line. It couldn't be with a deal since who the heck will gladly accept being repeatedly tortured for years with no way to escape lmao. It isn't added because I didn't do Alastor CRT yet.
 
"Your screams will make for a satisfying broadcast" and we know he does it via "tearing soul apart" from Husk line. It couldn't be with a deal since who the heck will gladly accept being repeatedly tortured for years with no way to escape lmao. It isn't added because I didn't do Alastor CRT yet.
He could've used sneaky word-play in the deal, but yeah. You convinced me. Good Job!

Still doesn't mean anything for regular Vox tho
 
Yeah, cause the fight where Alastor is ACTING and TRYING to lose, is a GREAT indicator of his power =]
Being casual does not mean your durability is lowered. He purposely made mistakes, like creeping off in Shadow form, and eventually, when he thought enough was done and he was pinned for a second time, he went for a deal.

W!Alastor>Base Vox, yeah, but it's not such a difference to where he cannot be harmed.
Oh also he was in his Demon Form when he was fighting 100% Vox. Which we accept as being stronger than his base. So sad.
And yet, Alastor was not torn apart in base when fighting Shok.wav, even when he was caught.
They still feel pain???
Alastor>>>Getting ripped to shreds or digested. I know some people have a fetish for that kind of thing but jeez.
And the evidence for that? And why it only works on someone who's injured?
Orange ninja'd me
It has a turn on and off switch, duh.
I'm going to strangle you with rainbows.
And that proves he'd murder him willy-nilly? Really?
Alastor literally threatened Husk with death for slightly annoying him. Eden. Mate. this is a character who basically does whatever he wants and only stopped because he got a reality check by ****** angel.
So you admit it's a wild assumption
It is one that has some form of legit backing using other instances in the series. Could probably drop it to possibly TBH. Spitballing here.
 
Charlie's voice actress ≠ Vivziepop, which contradicts the series, and according to the wiki (too lazy to check) Vivziepop herself has said in an interview that she has many things to say about heaven, including how she would deal with the population increase for the series, which wouldn't make sense if a voice actress revealed it out of the blue, but in this case I can't confirm.
 
Being casual does not mean your durability is lowered.
Remember all the damage they inflicted on him was, what? Attacking his open wound and scratching his cheek?
he was pinned for a second time
Again he was acting the whole fight, that includes the 1v1 he had with Vox off-screen.
And yet, Alastor was not torn apart in base when fighting Shok.wav, even when he was caught.
He was still in his Demon Form? There's no scaling between his Demon Form and his base.
Alastor literally threatened Husk with death for slightly annoying him. Eden. Mate. this is a character who basically does whatever he wants and only stopped because he got a reality check by ****** angel.
He doesn't like Husk. He's made that pretty obvious.

He's done nothing to Mimzy despite her insulting him several times, and apparently didn't respect Vox enough (Or at least that's what he says) to have him on his broadcast.
 
Remember all the damage they inflicted on him was, what? Attacking his open wound and scratching his cheek?
Attacking an open wound, stunning him with wires and electricity(accepted, BTW), and scratching him on the cheek.
Again he was acting the whole fight, that includes the 1v1 he had with Vox off-screen.
I recommend a class change to Warrior, because you clearly didn't read the part where I said "Making mistakes" and "thought enough was done".
He was still in his Demon Form? There's no scaling between his Demon Form and his base.
1e3379c8425e.png

looks base to me
He doesn't like Husk. He's made that pretty obvious.

He's done nothing to Mimzy despite her insulting him several times, and apparently didn't respect Vox enough (Or at least that's what he says) to have him on his broadcast.
Mimzy is someone he knew before Hell. She's a weird situation.

As for the Vox part, he said "a satisfying broadcast.", Implying he'd have done it anyways.
 
He doesn't like Husk. He's made that pretty obvious.

He's done nothing to Mimzy despite her insulting him several times, and apparently didn't respect Vox enough (Or at least that's what he says) to have him on his broadcast.
I will say this:
But even without that, Mimzy insulted him while Husk straight up offended him in most hurting place: his lack of actual freedom, so...
 
I will say this:

But even without that, Mimzy insulted him while Husk straight up offended him in most hurting place: his lack of actual freedom, so...
Like I've said before, Alastor doesn't like Vox because Vox is everything Alastor doesn't like about himself... But it's also why Alastor tolerated Vox, because they were so alike.
 
Attacking an open wound, stunning him with wires and electricity(accepted, BTW), and scratching him on the cheek.
Electricity is pseudo-dura neg so you can discount it.
1e3379c8425e.png

looks base to me
He detransforms after the blast hits Emily, yeah.
This is how he looks when Emily frees him, that's his Demon Form.
NJEeHdL.png


But imagine the scaling if this was legit and everyone became 8-B from downscaling from downscaling from downscaling? Good thing that's not the case.
Mimzy is someone he knew before Hell. She's a weird situation.

As for the Vox part, he said "a satisfying broadcast.", Implying he'd have done it anyways.
Case in point, he's been friends with Vox for a while too, so yeah

Also not really, no. If he wanted to make him into a broadcast before, there was genuinely nothing stopping Al from doing so.
 
Jesus ******* Christ.
Is HH in this wiki cursed to get 5+ Pages?
So...
Uh.
Is Hazbin gonna be 9-A or something? :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure:
 
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