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Familial Conquest vs Controlling Conquest (1-0-4)

Catbowtie

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Alternative Assumptions
Speed Equalized
Makima's State of Mind is altered: Makima views Asa as a legitimate threat
Battle takes place within 1000 meters of the Behemoth Airship
Combatants are 500 meters apart
Asa has Momo Yozakura's body
Asa is in Taiyo's Body
Makima's Telekinesis is High 7-C
Makima is given her Possible Contracts
Asa has Prior Knowledge: The number of Devil Hunter Safety members under Makima's Leadership, and Makima's favorite food
Makima has Prior Knowledge: That Asa has the body of Momo, that Momo is inert, and the function of Momo's Blooming: Dreams
Otherwise, Standard Battle Assumptions


CombatantsVotes
Asa@Catbowtie
Makima
Inconclusive@Jackof_noTrades068, @Hiiilt, @Arkenis, @Shadowslash125
 
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To be honest you don't need to alter Makima's mindset since Chizakura blood gives him strong mental resistances already but I digress

What must be gotten out of the way is how does Makima and her public safety devil hunters defend against Abeyance? Since this is Asa's opening move in every circumstance and he really likes spamming this. Speed is equalized sure, but Asa can just look at them and have it grow on her and even if he just shoots it out from his feet its got Kilometers of range. So even if Makima evades it, I really doubt her minions can.
Makima's TK is a non factor cause of the LS and AP gap so Asa doesn't have to worry about that. A real problem for Asa is that since its not mentioned which level of regen / resurrect she has in the OP. She has mid high regeneration. Asa's void overwhelms the regen of those who can come back from being destroyed on the cellular level and need biological incineration (dust or vapor) to truly kill them. But thats the issue, Void won't be able to kill a mid-high cause mid-highs come back from that. So Asa's gameplan will have to be trying to restrain Makima forever. Unless its fine for me to say raw AP would allow a cherry blossom fang explosion to destroy Makima down to a molecular level so she doesn't come back but that idk. Abeyance is pretty good for that for just sealing / ko'ing her forever though. Another option could be using pierce and simply leaving the bone spikes stuck in, Makima doesn't have the LS or the AP to get out of that I think. Even though It will not kill.
Idk if Dreams would be enough to entirely brainwash Makima, if it is I guess it'd be smart for Asa to lure the battle into the ship, likely even grab Makima and teleport inside and let Momo's hax send her to dream land or whatever.
Coming back to Makima's minions though, Asa really is likely to annihilate them with Void or Abeyance. If he really gets annoyed. Drops his 7-B+ meteor on the battle field to get rid of all of them. Which could reduce it back to a 1 on 1.
And ofc Hell BFR has a shot at still taking out Asa but I'll wait for CSM supporters to inform me more on her options (also wait what would knowledge on Makima's favorite food help with lmao)
 
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This fight is incredibly close, and whoever wins does it with Extreme Difficulty. Let's get to the facts.

Asa objectively dogwalks Public Safety Devil Hunters. The only Devil Hunters that could survive a confrontation with Asa are ones with Intangibility (Prinz, Beam) or ones with extraordinarily defensive abilities (Santa Claus). Everyone else dies with very little difficulty on Asa's end.

Makima's ability to Teleport on any place on Earth is a great advantage (Interdimensional Range). Asa can't do anything to Makima without Makima taking the initiative to approach Asa herself, period. If Makima wills it, Asa wouldn't see her even in his last moments, if he ever does die. At 500 Meters, Makima ****s right on off to the Freedom Tower and tries to TK crush Asa

The most critical part of this battle is the interaction between Asa and Makima when she uses Clairvoyance. In all instances of this fight, it will almost always end up being a race to Momo's body. Because of Clairvoyance, Makima can read Asa's mind, going through his memories and learning things such as his name, information on Blooming, the Behemoth, and Momo Yozakura. However, Asa, because of his own Telepathy, will be alerted to the fact that Makima is reading his mind and eject her out. Whatever information Makima could gleam in that time is a deciding factor whether she can defeat Asa or not. She could learn something that is completely useless like Asa's tendency to give people food, or learn something essentially game-changing like knowing Momo Yozakura is enabling Asa's Type 8 Immortality and the location of Momo Yozakura. She could also learn smaller tidbits of stuff, like what Blooming is and who Taiyo is.

Between Asa knowing that Makima knows his Type 8 Immortality, and Makima knowing that Asa knows that, it's a matter of "can the Public Safety Devil Hunters and Makima destroy Momo's body?"

This is not easy to answer. Makima may not know Momo's name to perform her Death Ritual. Maybe she could from her Clairvoyance, but she would be trading off other information to do so. Makima can't have all of her cakes and eat it. She can't know Momo's name, his location, where the Behemoth is, about all of Asa's Bloomings, and his abilities, AND that Dreams can work on anyone who enters the Behemoth, all in one sitting, because Asa would eject her from his mind at top-speed. Makima would have to rely on sending her minions to the Behemoth, but then again, characters with Intangibility like Beam can simply get mogged because none of them know what Abeyance is and that it's Thought-based.

There is also a chance for Makima to get instantly mogged by Abeyance or Dreams if she enters the Behemoth herself, but Makima rarely walks into a location completely blind. But it can happen if she's confident that a airship couldn't possibly pose a mortal threat.

Meanwhile, Asa would basically be playing real life Doom Slayer with how many people he has to mow down. How Asa manages his stamina and how long he can stay diligent for is something that should be discussed, because even stomping on ants can be tiring if you've been at it for hours.

I think this is a solid Inconclusive match. Asa has win conditions in using Abeyance or Dreams on Makima, with Abeyance being a guaranteed victory anytime Asa sees Makima. Makima has win conditions in destroying Momo's body and then tiring out Asa by throwing fodder at him, BFR'ing (this is available at any time), or Haxing him out with Devil Contracts.


To be honest you don't need to alter Makima's mindset since Chizakura blood gives him strong mental resistances already but I digress
I really only did it to stop people from skimming through Asa's Profile, seeing no Mind Manipulation Res, and going "Conquest GGs"
What must be gotten out of the way is how does Makima and her public safety devil hunters defend against Abeyance? Since this is Asa's opening move in every circumstance and he really likes spamming this. Speed is equalized sure, but Asa can just look at them and have it grow on her and even if he just shoots it out from his feet its got Kilometers of range. So even if Makima evades it, I really doubt her minions can.
Makima would teleport them to Asa's location using her Portal Creation flesh halos. If you looked at the Controlled Abilities section, you would see that they have many Hax abilities that could be Victories if they hit. A big if, because Asa is going to be decimating them with Bone Danmaku or Abeyance, like you said. Really, they'd just throw themselves at Asa until Makima tells them to do something else.

How fast is Abeyance? Does it clear Kilometers of Range instantly, or does it spread to that distance overtime? Does it spawn on someone at a Kilometer's range?
Unless its fine for me to say raw AP would allow a cherry blossom fang explosion to destroy Makima down to a molecular level so she doesn't come back but that idk.
iirc, that would require like billions of AP above a person's dura to even do. I can look somewhere to see if destroying Makima down to a molecular level is possible for Asa, but most likely not.
nother option could be using pierce and simply leaving the bone spikes stuck in, Makima doesn't have the LS or the AP to get out of that I think. Even though It will not kill.
In this situation, Makima would use any of her various methods of teleportation to get out, but Makima wouldn't be near Asa for him to do this, assuming that 500 meters is ample time and far enough for Makima to lengthen the starting distance without Asa instantly mogging her with Abeyance.
Idk if Dreams would be enough to entirely brainwash Makima, if it is I guess it'd be smart for Asa to lure the battle into the ship, likely even grab Makima and teleport inside and let Momo's hax send her to dream land or whatever.
Maybe. The Behemoth has Momo, and even one guy of hundreds of Devil Hunters happening upon him and, assuming that Makima tells everyone to destroy Momo when they see him, would cut off Asa's Type 8 Immo.
Coming back to Makima's minions though, Asa really is likely to annihilate them with Void or Abeyance. If he really gets annoyed. Drops his 7-B+ meteor on the battle field to get rid of all of them. Which could reduce it back to a 1 on 1.
The meteor wouldn't be effective in destroying all of Public Safety. Portal Creation could help any number of Devil Hunters escape, and then it's right back to fighting some more. Though, the meteor would obliterate a good portion of fodder and perhaps even characters like Reze, Quanxi, Angel, or Pingtsi (not that they even matter at all lol)
 
I really only did it to stop people from skimming through Asa's Profile, seeing no Mind Manipulation Res, and going "Conquest GGs"
YKW thats entirely fair lmao
Makima would teleport them to Asa's location using her Portal Creation flesh halos. If you looked at the Controlled Abilities section, you would see that they have many Hax abilities that could be Victories if they hit. A big if, because Asa is going to be decimating them with Bone Danmaku or Abeyance, like you said. Really, they'd just throw themselves at Asa until Makima tells them to do something else.
That's the thing. Asa is a more skilled fighter than all of them, has the aoe moves to slime the vast majority of them and is smart enough to not just stand there and take hits from them. Against the weaker fiends and devil hunters he could even do something as mundane as using Binding chains to restrain them then comboing with something else immediately after. Asa's biggest worry would be if Makima opted to immediately teleport some of her goons into the behemoth, but they're all going to be victims to dreams immediately.
Taiyo's stamina is pretty good, there's more detail on it in Taiyo's Pre TS profile and Post-TS profile and well. The fact Asa can still keep fighting as a literal vapor cloud. Admittedly that state is much weaker than having a body. So I don't expect stamina to be too much of a problem

How fast is Abeyance? Does it clear Kilometers of Range instantly, or does it spread to that distance overtime? Does it spawn on someone at a Kilometer's range?
Not quite instant since Kyoichiro could react, but pretty fast compared to characters close to his speed Enveloped the surface of Teiou Island and the surface area of the behemoth in the time it took Golliath to try bite him. Taiyo also doesn't bother trying to dodge it, rather immediately starting off in true spring blooming and using his aura to blast it off before the whole dura neg component comes into play. It aint a slow creeping wave like Shigaraki's decay. It doesn't spawn at kilometers of range though or at least we don't got proof of that (cause really long ranges he keeps using waves), cases of him growing on someone such as Taiyo in chapters 160 and 231 or Momo respectively were pretty close range. At best i'd say tens of meters based on the time he Covered Momo in Abeyance exclusively and no one else. Which Asa can work with. For Void, Asa can cover this much ground even while nerfed so. Which by the way Asa can unironically use as a restraining tool on those who resist it, like he did vs TSB Taiyo. Well Makima doesn't resist she's just constantly regenerating through it, but close enough.

As a side note. How does equal speed even work when the character summons weaker slower mobs than Makima like these devil hunters. Like does Asa blitz cause Makima is faster than many of them (High hypersonic vs Supersonic+) and Asa is equalized down to Makima speed. Or are they all nerfed down to the slowest devil hunters speed?
iirc, that would require like billions of AP above a person's dura to even do. I can look somewhere to see if destroying Makima down to a molecular level is possible for Asa, but most likely not.
I see, then Asa will have to learn really fast he can't brute force kill her.
In this situation, Makima would use any of her various methods of teleportation to get out, but Makima wouldn't be near Asa for him to do this, assuming that 500 meters is ample time and far enough for Makima to lengthen the starting distance without Asa instantly mogging her with Abeyance.
That's fair to say yeah, Makima does have a tendency to retreat and let grunts do the dirty work. Asa can teleport across that 500m but Makima can too and Makima's TP range is better.
Maybe. The Behemoth has Momo, and even one guy of hundreds of Devil Hunters happening upon him and, assuming that Makima tells everyone to destroy Momo when they see him, would cut off Asa's Type 8 Immo.
Good luck to them not getting cooked by Dreams in the behemoth if she tries this. Momo's in a tube in the center of the thing. So one guy can't happen upon him, hed have to be teleported to his doorstep or try take the elevator inside. Which won't help. Makima would have to go in herself I think, but that's only if Makima feels confident she can resist dreams, but Dreams' mind manip component has a layer and it has a dream gimmick which Makima does not resist. Makima might have to try destroy the entire thing and hope momo dies by proxy (no lower body, no tube keeping him alive so he will croak eventually)

The meteor wouldn't be effective in destroying all of Public Safety. Portal Creation could help any number of Devil Hunters escape, and then it's right back to fighting some more. Though, the meteor would obliterate a good portion of fodder and perhaps even characters like Reze, Quanxi, Angel, or Pingtsi (not that they even matter at all lol)
it's true it'll mainly wipe out the bums, just that Asa can just keep making those meteors, he relies on using his TK to make it akin to Chibaku Tensei from naruto. And he did it when his bloomings were failing. So since he's starting at full power, is in Taiyo's body so he has no reason to seek out a potential host he can just bombard them like that.

This fight is incredibly close, and whoever wins does it with Extreme Difficulty. Let's get to the facts.

Asa objectively dogwalks Public Safety Devil Hunters. The only Devil Hunters that could survive a confrontation with Asa are ones with Intangibility (Prinz, Beam) or ones with extraordinarily defensive abilities (Santa Claus). Everyone else dies with very little difficulty on Asa's end.

Makima's ability to Teleport on any place on Earth is a great advantage (Interdimensional Range). Asa can't do anything to Makima without Makima taking the initiative to approach Asa herself, period. If Makima wills it, Asa wouldn't see her even in his last moments, if he ever does die. At 500 Meters, Makima ****s right on off to the Freedom Tower and tries to TK crush Asa

The most critical part of this battle is the interaction between Asa and Makima when she uses Clairvoyance. In all instances of this fight, it will almost always end up being a race to Momo's body. Because of Clairvoyance, Makima can read Asa's mind, going through his memories and learning things such as his name, information on Blooming, the Behemoth, and Momo Yozakura. However, Asa, because of his own Telepathy, will be alerted to the fact that Makima is reading his mind and eject her out. Whatever information Makima could gleam in that time is a deciding factor whether she can defeat Asa or not. She could learn something that is completely useless like Asa's tendency to give people food, or learn something essentially game-changing like knowing Momo Yozakura is enabling Asa's Type 8 Immortality and the location of Momo Yozakura. She could also learn smaller tidbits of stuff, like what Blooming is and who Taiyo is.

Between Asa knowing that Makima knows his Type 8 Immortality, and Makima knowing that Asa knows that, it's a matter of "can the Public Safety Devil Hunters and Makima destroy Momo's body?"

This is not easy to answer. Makima may not know Momo's name to perform her Death Ritual. Maybe she could from her Clairvoyance, but she would be trading off other information to do so. Makima can't have all of her cakes and eat it. She can't know Momo's name, his location, where the Behemoth is, about all of Asa's Bloomings, and his abilities, AND that Dreams can work on anyone who enters the Behemoth, all in one sitting, because Asa would eject her from his mind at top-speed. Makima would have to rely on sending her minions to the Behemoth, but then again, characters with Intangibility like Beam can simply get mogged because none of them know what Abeyance is and that it's Thought-based.

There is also a chance for Makima to get instantly mogged by Abeyance or Dreams if she enters the Behemoth herself, but Makima rarely walks into a location completely blind. But it can happen if she's confident that a airship couldn't possibly pose a mortal threat.

Meanwhile, Asa would basically be playing real life Doom Slayer with how many people he has to mow down. How Asa manages his stamina and how long he can stay diligent for is something that should be discussed, because even stomping on ants can be tiring if you've been at it for hours.

I think this is a solid Inconclusive match. Asa has win conditions in using Abeyance or Dreams on Makima, with Abeyance being a guaranteed victory anytime Asa sees Makima. Makima has win conditions in destroying Momo's body and then tiring out Asa by throwing fodder at him, BFR'ing (this is available at any time), or Haxing him out with Devil Contracts.
This is a really good analysis, I think specifically Makima needs to learn of the existence of almost all those critical components you mentioned for a smooth victory to be possible in the ways you have described. (TK crushing is def not working on him though given the stats gap and Asa unironically has stronger TK)
May need to be reminded on CSM's BFR since its been a while since I read Part 1 and 2. Like is it that hand that grabs you and pulls you into hell? Cause Asa would TP out of that thing.
If it gets to the point where Asa has killed all her minions essentially and she's forced at least to somewhat present herself, she may get defeated fast head on as you have explained with Abeyance, Void, Pierce etc. Also his air manip and aikido knowledge to attack reflect most gimmicks the devil hunters could launch at him, melee and projectile.

By the way, something else that is spawn on target Asa could use is severance. He could draw a circle in the air and Makima's leg could be spatially divided, so she can't regen cause she wasn't really damaged. But this kinda needs them to be in mid range at least I think. He could use it to perma incap if he just keeps doing it to her various joints and body parts. But he doesn't use severance super often
 
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Good luck to them not getting cooked by Dreams in the behemoth if she tries this. Momo's in a tube in the center of the thing. So one guy can't happen upon him, hed have to be teleported to his doorstep or try take the elevator inside. Which won't help. Makima would have to go in herself I think, but that's only if Makima feels confident she can resist dreams, but Dreams' mind manip component has a layer and it has a dream gimmick which Makima does not resist. Makima might have to try destroy the entire thing and hope momo dies by proxy (no lower body, no tube keeping him alive so he will croak eventually)
i'm not familiar with the yozakura family manga so i could be wrong but would using the hell devil to send everyone inside it to hell (like santa did to everyone inside the convenience store) work or do they have some way to come back/resist it?
May need to be reminded on CSM's BFR since its been a while since I read Part 1 and 2. Like is it that hand that grabs you and pulls you into hell? Cause Asa would TP out of that thing.
it doesn't require touch, the hell devil kinda just waves/puts his hand in your general direction to teleport you there
 
i'm not familiar with the yozakura family manga so i could be wrong but would using the hell devil to send everyone inside it to hell (like santa did to everyone inside the convenience store) work or do they have some way to come back/resist it?
That’d be a pretty smart way to deal with Momo actually. Tbh I didn’t think of that.
My only concern would be if Santa needs to be somewhat inside the building like he was for the convenience store? If so then Santa just gets mind haxed and lulled once he’s inside since Dreams is noted in its justifications as Instant. So Santa’s just wasted for nothing.
If not and Santa can just look at the behemoth cut his heart out and send Momo there, then it’ll work.
Asa’s type 8 will still work until Momo actually dies in hell but Momo wouldn’t last long for obvious reasons.
Asa can’t bring him back either since he doesn’t have interdimensional range anywhere.

it doesn't require touch, the hell devil kinda just waves/puts his hand in your general direction to teleport you there
Then Hell BFR is a usable wincon.
Asa could avoid this given Le Skill or whatever to just move the instant that hand spawns. But he’d need to figure out how the Hell devil even works before concluding such. Which he won’t cause he has no way to extract that information.
 
That’d be a pretty smart way to deal with Momo actually. Tbh I didn’t think of that.
My only concern would be if Santa needs to be somewhat inside the building like he was for the convenience store? If so then Santa just gets mind haxed and lulled once he’s inside since Dreams is noted in its justifications as Instant. So Santa’s just wasted for nothing.
santa is the woman and she was outside of the convenience store when she used it
 
That's the thing. Asa is a more skilled fighter than all of them, has the aoe moves to slime the vast majority of them and is smart enough to not just stand there and take hits from them. Against the weaker fiends and devil hunters he could even do something as mundane as using Binding chains to restrain them then comboing with something else immediately after.
Absolutely. However, this would undoubtedly lead to Makima, because of her shared senses, learning about Asa's abilities, which would be important because she could better avoid Asa's Victory conditions. Makima will very well parse information from Asa by testing the range of his abilities (by commanding her minions to stand at range and attack him) and what combat applicable abilities Asa uses (by throwing minions at him until he reveals something new).
Asa's biggest worry would be if Makima opted to immediately teleport some of her goons into the behemoth, but they're all going to be victims to dreams immediately.
This is also another interesting situation.

We know how Dreams work and we know that Makima can read the minds and memories of her minions. Asa is certainly permanently incapacitating anyone who walks into the Behemoth. Even more, it would effectively be an informational dead zone for Makima because of Asa's ability to block out outsiders from rousing a person affected by Dreams. Of course, Makima does know how Dreams works, but she couldn't foresee any of her minions walking into the airship and instantly getting mogged. It would be very likely for Makima to put two and two together (through trial and error by just throwing minions into the Behemoth) and realize that Dreams somehow instantly works on anyone who goes into the Behemoth.

Moreover, Asa can turn Makima's own minions against her. Not only would Dreams prevent Makima's interference, but also entirely negate the effects of Conquest. Asa has a great chance to learn a lot of information on Makima, but it depends on if Asa talks to any of the minions, or characters like Quanxi, Reze, Aki, etc.

Meanwhile, how she handles the Behemoth's Passive Dream infliction is quite equivocal. She could use undead zombies to walk into the Behemoth, but its possible that Dreams could work on zombies. I don't know. They don't have a mind per say. They're dead people. They don't have a consciousness for Dreams to target, if I'm not mistaken. Makima can have zombies walk around the Behemoth to try to find Momo, but it's doubtful they'd make any meaningful progress compared to characters like Beam or Prinzi that can phase through the ground and walls to find Momo. Of course, if Makima decides to use Beam or Prinzi, they get mogged by Dreams, and they might even divulge information on Makima depending on what Asa does.

The Behemoth is certainly a hard nut to crack for Makima.
Taiyo's stamina is pretty good, there's more detail on it in Taiyo's Pre TS profile and Post-TS profile and well. The fact Asa can still keep fighting as a literal vapor cloud. Admittedly that state is much weaker than having a body. So I don't expect stamina to be too much of a problem
I'm speaking more about Asa's Energy exertion. From what I saw, he can easily exert himself for 10 minutes straight, and with Taiyo's body, possibly for 8 hours? Blooming is upwards of 10 minutes, so that would be Asa's Triumph card in any dire situation.
Which Asa can work with. For Void, Asa can cover this much ground even while nerfed so. Which by the way Asa can unironically use as a restraining tool on those who resist it, like he did vs TSB Taiyo. Well Makima doesn't resist she's just constantly regenerating through it, but close enough.
This wouldn't be anything meaningful to Makima. Teleportation or Intangibility will break her free. But this mogs Public Safety lol
As a side note. How does equal speed even work when the character summons weaker slower mobs than Makima like these devil hunters. Like does Asa blitz cause Makima is faster than many of them (High hypersonic vs Supersonic+) and Asa is equalized down to Makima speed. Or are they all nerfed down to the slowest devil hunters speed?
idk but knowing how summons and minions work in vsb, its likely the devil hunters' speeds get raised to Makima's
Good luck to them not getting cooked by Dreams in the behemoth if she tries this. Momo's in a tube in the center of the thing. So one guy can't happen upon him, hed have to be teleported to his doorstep or try take the elevator inside. Which won't help. Makima would have to go in herself I think, but that's only if Makima feels confident she can resist dreams, but Dreams' mind manip component has a layer and it has a dream gimmick which Makima does not resist. Makima might have to try destroy the entire thing and hope momo dies by proxy (no lower body, no tube keeping him alive so he will croak eventually)
Makima wouldn't ever enter into the Behemoth. She has Prior Knowledge on Dreams, and if she learns additional information that anyone who enters into the Behemoth gets instantly hit with Dreams, then she will never willingly walk into that trap. Makima would only ever walk into the Behemoth if she didn't already know from her minions that Dreams automatically triggers on anyone inside of the Behemoth.

And I agree with you on Makima just trying to destroy the entire thing. She lost contact with the Devil Hunters or Fiends she sent into the Behemoth. She knows she can't enter the Behemoth without something happening to her. She'll most likely opt to BFR Asa through the Hell Devil or try blow the entire place up, which most likely won't happen if Asa is any measure of protective over the Behemoth. I reckon he could simply encase the entire thing in Abeyance and wait it out.
May need to be reminded on CSM's BFR since its been a while since I read Part 1 and 2. Like is it that hand that grabs you and pulls you into hell? Cause Asa would TP out of that thing.
A bunch of Devil Hunters sacrifice themselves to summon the Hell Devil, which travels to Asa's location and summons Doors that has hands that stretch out and BFR Asa to Hell.

I will say now that the Hell Devil BFR strat isn't a guaranteed Victory. If Asa is in the Behemoth. It gets hit with Dreams. Asa can prevent BFR by standing in the Behemoth, or encasing the doors in Abeyance, or by using Void, or doing literally anything he already was doing.
By the way, something else that is spawn on target Asa could use is severance. He could draw a circle in the air and Makima's leg could be spatially divided, so she can't regen cause she wasn't really damaged. But this kinda needs them to be in mid range at least I think. He could use it to perma incap if he just keeps doing it to her various joints and body parts. But he doesn't use severance super often
The only real counter Makima has to this is Future Sight. She would see Asa carving her leg off and jump out of the way to dodge it.
 
Absolutely. However, this would undoubtedly lead to Makima, because of her shared senses, learning about Asa's abilities, which would be important because she could better avoid Asa's Victory conditions. Makima will very well parse information from Asa by testing the range of his abilities (by commanding her minions to stand at range and attack him) and what combat applicable abilities Asa uses (by throwing minions at him until he reveals something new).
That's fair to say. Although while Makima's senses are really good for herself. So she may know where Asa is. Asa's Stealth Mastery could stop the devil hunters she's looking through from tracking him any moment he's not directly in their line of sight. Minor note to add cause Makima could just share what she is observing or smelling with her minions I think.

This is also another interesting situation.

We know how Dreams work and we know that Makima can read the minds and memories of her minions. Asa is certainly permanently incapacitating anyone who walks into the Behemoth. Even more, it would effectively be an informational dead zone for Makima because of Asa's ability to block out outsiders from rousing a person affected by Dreams. Of course, Makima does know how Dreams works, but she couldn't foresee any of her minions walking into the airship and instantly getting mogged. It would be very likely for Makima to put two and two together (through trial and error by just throwing minions into the Behemoth) and realize that Dreams somehow instantly works on anyone who goes into the Behemoth.
Depends on if she figures out the behemoth has no defense systems besides Communications Jamming and Dreams tbh. She might think they got annihilated by a trap of some sort since from her POV they'd just walk in and her link gets cut / it goes black. So this is a bit up to chance.
Moreover, Asa can turn Makima's own minions against her. Not only would Dreams prevent Makima's interference, but also entirely negate the effects of Conquest. Asa has a great chance to learn a lot of information on Makima, but it depends on if Asa talks to any of the minions, or characters like Quanxi, Reze, Aki, etc.
Given Asa can use his telepathy to talk to Hulang while he was in active combat with Taiyo Yozakura and does try to have conversation with those he fights (Such as Vs. Kyoichiro and Vs. Shinzo) I think this is likely to occur. While it wouldn't break Makima's conquest Asa could even use telepathy to talk to them. Their mind controlled Makima infatuated states would respond but its worth something and I don't know if Makima can boot out telepathy the way Asa can.

Meanwhile, how she handles the Behemoth's Passive Dream infliction is quite equivocal. She could use undead zombies to walk into the Behemoth, but its possible that Dreams could work on zombies. I don't know. They don't have a mind per say. They're dead people. They don't have a consciousness for Dreams to target, if I'm not mistaken. Makima can have zombies walk around the Behemoth to try to find Momo, but it's doubtful they'd make any meaningful progress compared to characters like Beam or Prinzi that can phase through the ground and walls to find Momo. Of course, if Makima decides to use Beam or Prinzi, they get mogged by Dreams, and they might even divulge information on Makima depending on what Asa does.

The Behemoth is certainly a hard nut to crack for Makima.
That's all pretty true yeah. Unironically I feel like if zombies get sent in it would take a long while to search the behemoth cause its got hundreds of floors and has a 450m diameter and they may not even know the directions as goofy as it sounds. Which means the fight would proceed for a while unimpeded.

I'm speaking more about Asa's Energy exertion. From what I saw, he can easily exert himself for 10 minutes straight, and with Taiyo's body, possibly for 8 hours? Blooming is upwards of 10 minutes, so that would be Asa's Triumph card in any dire situation.
Oh, energy exertion. Well for that Taiyo does upscale from Pre-Timeskip Gold Rank spies like Shinzo who can exert himself for 3 hours and how the other Yozakura's including even their physically weakest member fought Kyoichiro for 5 hours straight and can go a month without sleeping (granted playing video games but not sleeping gotta count for something).
Blooming itself isn't 10 minutes, True Spring Blooming is, unless that was just a typo. Base Blooming seems to just not have any energy exertion issues at all. Taiyo before the timeskip once got sick and his blooming was active for an entire school day (~6 hours). He wasn't getting tired from it being stuck on, he was just extremely worried about controlling his super strength and kept breaking things.
But yeah, I mean if there's somehow a few fiends still around being a pest, he can use True Spring Blooming and vaporize them with his 5km range Cherry Blossom Fang Blast. Although I think Asa can hold off from using it really well since even in base his arsenal is vast and frankly raw power alone doesn't matter vs Makima when he already has so much raw power he can stone wall through her generic AP moves like TK.

This wouldn't be anything meaningful to Makima. Teleportation or Intangibility will break her free. But this mogs Public Safety lol
Yeah its mainly good for wiping out public safely they kinda can't do anything if they see a black deconstruction tsunami coming for them lmao

idk but knowing how summons and minions work in vsb, its likely the devil hunters' speeds get raised to Makima's
Well thats weird so for now i'll operate under the assumption they get bumped up to Makima speed cause highkey if they arent equalized then they're all worthless besides the few close to Makima speed like Santa Claus.

Makima wouldn't ever enter into the Behemoth. She has Prior Knowledge on Dreams, and if she learns additional information that anyone who enters into the Behemoth gets instantly hit with Dreams, then she will never willingly walk into that trap. Makima would only ever walk into the Behemoth if she didn't already know from her minions that Dreams automatically triggers on anyone inside of the Behemoth.

And I agree with you on Makima just trying to destroy the entire thing. She lost contact with the Devil Hunters or Fiends she sent into the Behemoth. She knows she can't enter the Behemoth without something happening to her. She'll most likely opt to BFR Asa through the Hell Devil or try blow the entire place up, which most likely won't happen if Asa is any measure of protective over the Behemoth. I reckon he could simply encase the entire thing in Abeyance and wait it out
Yeah that makes sense, blowing the whole thing up Asa aint letting happen and Abeyance working as a protective shell for the thing would be pretty easy since Asa's initial Abeyance wave is going to cover the entire Behemoth at this range anyway given the scan I sent earlier. Makima's TK is only High 7-C so bang spam is just gonna tickle the abeyance.
A bunch of Devil Hunters sacrifice themselves to summon the Hell Devil, which travels to Asa's location and summons Doors that has hands that stretch out and BFR Asa to Hell.

I will say now that the Hell Devil BFR strat isn't a guaranteed Victory. If Asa is in the Behemoth. It gets hit with Dreams. Asa can prevent BFR by standing in the Behemoth, or encasing the doors in Abeyance, or by using Void, or doing literally anything he already was doing.
Ngl I forgot that Asa can honestly just attack that hand or blocking it. The hell devil is still a devil so it can still be damaged. If he tags it with void, the deconstruction spreads until there's next to nothing left for it to cut away at, so it may even kill the rest of the hell devil which would remove Makima's BFR entirely?

The only real counter Makima has to this is Future Sight. She would see Asa carving her leg off and jump out of the way to dodge it.
True, just that Aki is among the most fragile of her controlled minions no? He might actually die so fast that Asa doesn't know he already killed him unless Makima goes out of her way to keep him in the back line observing the fight with his eyes. But then Asa would wonder "why is this one not charging me like everyone else" and directly go after him or even drop a meteor. After which she basically cant do anything to defend severance. Esp if Asa spams it on her. Since Asa views it as a great way to non lethally beat someone and he didn't spam it on Taiyo cause he was trying to gauge how good Taiyo would be as a future host and thus wanted a longer fight

Essentially how I'm looking at it, Makima's most reliable wincon is trying to BFR Momo who's inside the behemoth and not Asa himself, and after that try to extract the info that can allow her to use that weird death ritual. Maybe hope Santa Claus' Doll gimmick can off guard Asa in all the chaos (this is admittedly unlikely). Or Cosmo if she can last long enough without being killed as collateral. Makima must also basically avoid getting close to Asa in this fight since he actually has methods to subdue her without killing her. While for Asa, if Makima gets into even tens of meters of the guy, severance and abeyance can both beat her. Even the stuff Makima can teleport out of like void or pierce spikes does give Asa a brief moment to try a combo move. Like restrain with void, then grow abeyance on it. Severance on a leg, void the other limbs, while she's regrowing grab her and teleport her into the behemoth himself to let dreams do the work.

Might be leaning towards Asa on my end ngl. Even though it'd be high-extreme diff. Cause Asa shouldn't take too long wiping out Makima's small army (besides Santa with her weird invulnerability but Abeyance gg even if there is a dark spot. And the intangible characters), and for every kill Makima's list of options will get worse and worse. And I'm not the most sure how she really turns it around if she starts losing momentum so to speak. However Makima also has a bunch of options but hers rely more on information retrieval and keeping her most valuable minions alive. Asa’s wincons don’t rely on information retrieval and if he can really mow down Makima’s forces to just her he should have this.
 
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Makima's TK is a non factor cause of the LS and AP gap so Asa doesn't have to worry about that. A real problem for Asa is that since its not mentioned which level of regen / resurrect she has in the OP. She has mid high regeneration. Asa's void overwhelms the regen of those who can come back from being destroyed on the cellular level and need biological incineration (dust or vapor) to truly kill them. But thats the issue, Void won't be able to kill a mid-high cause mid-highs come back from that. So Asa's gameplan will have to be trying to restrain Makima forever. Unless its fine for me to say raw AP would allow a cherry blossom fang explosion to destroy Makima down to a molecular level so she doesn't come back but that idk. Abeyance is pretty good for that for just sealing / ko'ing her forever though. Another option could be using pierce and simply leaving the bone spikes stuck in, Makima doesn't have the LS or the AP to get out of that I think. Even though It will not kill.
Her regen doesn't matter really, she should still be able to come back via the harm/death put onto other citizens or could just teleport away.

A bunch of Devil Hunters sacrifice themselves to summon the Hell Devil, which travels to Asa's location and summons Doors that has hands that stretch out and BFR Asa to Hell.

I will say now that the Hell Devil BFR strat isn't a guaranteed Victory. If Asa is in the Behemoth. It gets hit with Dreams. Asa can prevent BFR by standing in the Behemoth, or encasing the doors in Abeyance, or by using Void, or doing literally anything he already was doing.
It's just an arm coming through right? How does the Dreams effect that?

Essentially how I'm looking at it, Makima's most reliable wincon is trying to BFR Momo who's inside the behemoth and not Asa himself, and after that try to extract the info that can allow her to use that weird death ritual. Maybe hope Santa Claus' Doll gimmick can off guard Asa in all the chaos (this is admittedly unlikely). Or Cosmo if she can last long enough without being killed as collateral. Makima must also basically avoid getting close to Asa in this fight since he actually has methods to subdue her without killing her. While for Asa, if Makima gets into even tens of meters of the guy, severance and abeyance can both beat her. Even the stuff Makima can teleport out of like void or pierce spikes does give Asa a brief moment to try a combo move. Like restrain with void, then grow abeyance on it. Severance on a leg, void the other limbs, while she's regrowing grab her and teleport her into the behemoth himself to let dreams do the work.
Makima's able to control or make deals with devils. If she starts getting her fiends and devils killed, she can make a deal with new devils like the primals or make a deal with America to unleash GD on the Behemoth
 
Her regen doesn't matter really, she should still be able to come back via the harm/death put onto other citizens or could just teleport away.
Resurrect matters a whole lot because it tells us what severity of damage Makima can resurrect from. Destroying at a molecular level mogs tf out of Makima no question. Everything else I agree with tho
It's just an arm coming through right? How does the Dreams effect that?
I'm speaking more on the Hell Devil just pulling up like it did against Pochita. On this? tbf idk.
 
It's just an arm coming through right? How does the Dreams effect that?
Adding some two sense, the arm does come through a portal. It would need the portal to spawn inside the ship for it to work. But one could say the Dreams mind control fumes would flood into hell where the main body is but that’s a bit of speculation ngl.

Makima's able to control or make deals with devils. If she starts getting her fiends and devils killed, she can make a deal with new devils like the primals or make a deal with America to unleash GD on the Behemoth
Is it in character for Makima to make new contracts on the spot with such powerful devils? I don’t remember her making new contracts on the spot in her fight with Pochita even after she jokingly said beating him would be unwinnable. (may just be bad memory).
Plus those devils like the Gun devil and other primals aren’t on Makima’s profile so I think it’d count as “outside help” rather than viable summons she’s allowed to pull out.
 
I'm speaking more on the Hell Devil just pulling up like it did against Pochita. On this? tbf idk.
the reason the hell devil appeared physically like that against pochita was because it was ordered to kill and then send makima to hell, if it's just ordered to bfr someone it doesn't show its body
Makima's able to control or make deals with devils. If she starts getting her fiends and devils killed, she can make a deal with new devils like the primals or make a deal with America to unleash GD on the Behemoth
idt any primal would work with her (darkness wants her dead, falling is already being controlled by someone else, aging doesn't seem to have interest in anyone besides pochita and they're all too strong for her to force into contracts using conquest)

the gun devil is also probably not an option bc she already has bang on her profile which is an ability she gains after defeating the gun devil and turning it into a fiend

the only way i can see her getting more ppl to control and use against asa is by turning the devil hunters he kills into zombies or using santa to turn passerbys into dolls
Is it in character for Makima to make new contracts on the spot with such powerful devils? I don’t remember her making new contracts on the spot in her fight with Pochita even after she jokingly said beating him would be unwinnable. (may just be bad memory).
the only times she did this that i can think of is the time she made a contract with the hell devil to escape darkness and when she forced angel & aki to give all of themselves to her but, like you said, devils that aren't on her profile probably count as outside help
Ngl I forgot that Asa can honestly just attack that hand or blocking it. The hell devil is still a devil so it can still be damaged. If he tags it with void, the deconstruction spreads until there's next to nothing left for it to cut away at, so it may even kill the rest of the hell devil which would remove Makima's BFR entirely?
probably not, pochita blitzed and slaughtered the hell devil on their first encounter and it still managed to send him to hell (and it won't even show its real body unless ordered to kill its target)
Adding some two sense, the arm does come through a portal. It would need the portal to spawn inside the ship for it to work.
not rll, it can just spawn above the ship
True, just that Aki is among the most fragile of her controlled minions no? He might actually die so fast that Asa doesn't know he already killed him unless Makima goes out of her way to keep him in the back line observing the fight with his eyes.
makima can use the abilities of those she controls on herself even after they're dead so even if asa kills aki it won't remove makima's future sight
 
probably not, pochita blitzed and slaughtered the hell devil on their first encounter and it still managed to send him to hell (and it won't even show its real body unless ordered to kill its target)
If Asa can tear its arm to shreds with one of his bloomings and it'd still teleport him away, then it seems BFR is a guaranteed win con for her. Although she doesn't start off asap with this. Although could Asa like unironically just block it by spawning Abeyance rocks on the Hell Devil's door to stop it from even coming out? If not tbh that may be enough to warrant an incon since they both got good wincons.
not rll, it can just spawn above the ship
I just mentioned that to answer how Dreams could affect the hell devil. The minimum requirement would be if it chose to be inside the ship. So yeah no dice if it spawns above instead.
makima can use the abilities of those she controls on herself even after they're dead so even if asa kills aki it won't remove makima's future sight
Even if she can. I must ask these questions before I cast a vote. Is Aki's precognition even constantly active for her (esp since in that scan she is consciously choosing to use Angel's powers)? Since Makima got caught off guard by Denji which led to her defeat. If it was on and she didn't need to look at him to see that chainsaw slash and just got a vision in her head, she still could've dodged even without recognizing the scent. Or instead is it simply something she must consciously activate? Next its based seeing with your right eye, so if Asa sends an attack out of the view of her right eye like severance slicing both her ankles so long as she isn't looking right at the ground (she would just be seeing a few seconds in the future of Asa drawing circles in the air with his finger for seemingly no reason)? Would the precog just not help in that case? Or am I mistaken?
 
Even if she can. I must ask these questions before I cast a vote. Is Aki's precognition even constantly active for her (esp since in that scan she is consciously choosing to use Angel's powers)?
she has to choose to use it however as op already put her in a state of mind where she sees asa as a threat she'd start with it like she did against the gun devil
Since Makima got caught off guard by Denji which led to her defeat. If it was on and she didn't need to look at him to see that chainsaw slash and just got a vision in her head, she still could've dodged even without recognizing the scent.
that's bc she looked down on denji to the point she wanted to beat him only with her bare hands (which is why she didn't bother using any of her other devils or even her telekinesis on him)

she wouldn't lower her guard like that against asa
Next its based seeing with your right eye, so if Asa sends an attack out of the view of her right eye like severance slicing both her ankles so long as she isn't looking right at the ground (she would just be seeing a few seconds in the future of Asa drawing circles in the air with his finger for seemingly no reason)? Would the precog just not help in that case? Or am I mistaken?
the future devil can use his abilities in 2 ways, the first one is by showing a few seconds into the future and the other is by showing a vision of its user being killed even when they're not trying to use his abilities

so while the first method wouldn't help the second one def should (aki was even able to block an attack from quanxi with it but i'm not sure if he had his back turned or not)
 
she has to choose to use it however as op already put her in a state of mind where she sees asa as a threat she'd start with it like she did against the gun devil
First time Altering Makima’s mindset to stop Conquest from working is actually more beneficial to her than the opponent lmao.
that's bc she looked down on denji to the point she wanted to beat him only with her bare hands (which is why she didn't bother using any of her other devils or even her telekinesis on him)

she wouldn't lower her guard like that against asa
yeah that makes sense. plus Asa would tear into her army akin to how Pochita did so she would understand she has to get creative and use her whole arsenal to win

the future devil can use his abilities in 2 ways, the first one is by showing a few seconds into the future and the other is by showing a vision of its user being killed even when they're not trying to use his abilities

so while the first method wouldn't help the second one def should (aki was even able to block an attack from quanxi with it but i'm not sure if he had his back turned or not)
Showing a vision of her death wouldn’t be super helpful since Asa’s wincons actually don’t involve killing Makima but perma incapacitation as noted earlier in the thread.
I mean Asa could try to kill her 100 million times since Void can constantly eat away at someone but idk if being constantly deconstructed would count as an additional damage transfer / death per second even ignoring how inefficient that is. Plus Makima could teleport out of being swarmed by void and rip off the part that has it still duplicating and spreading on her. or when she’s reduced to dust she’d come back and the void would be gone)
That second form of Future sight would just help for Asa’s initial attacks where he tries to kill her and realizes he can’t. But even the first form of right eye future sight will be a pain for Asa to deal with (even though it ain’t foolproof/unbeatable since it’s only a few seconds) and will help Makima coordinate public safety better against him.

So given all that I’ll be voting Inconclusive for the points listed above tbh. This match goes both ways.
 
I'll vote Makima on the off chance she decides to go to drastic routes and make deals with other devils, so far I don't see her dying in permanent ways due to prior knowledge and the way her immo works.
 
Not trying to argue with you, but
Makima on the off chance she decides to go to drastic routes and make deals with other devils
It’s unknown what possible contracts Makima could theoretically make to defeat Asa. It can be conceded that Makima could make a contract similar to Santa Claus, but in the same vein Makima could just…not make effective contracts. As in, Makima just throws stuff at the wall to see what works. She could make a contract stipulating that Asa must be killed in trade for the lives of other people, but then Makima doesn’t have access to any type of Death Manipulation, so it’d naturally have to be done through AP, and Asa is already as strong as characters later in the series. Or she could try to throw people into a blender and spam contracts with the Zombie Devil

All this to say that banking on an ambiguous, ill defined win condition like “She just makes a contract to win” is kinda…y’know. Cosmo is RIGHT there btw (unironically Asa can counter this by pushing out Cosmo out of his mind before she Mind Haxes if she decides to yap like she did against Santa Claus)
I don't see her dying in permanent ways due to prior knowledge
Asa doesn’t necessarily need to kill Makima to win. Using Dreams to mog or Abeyance to petrify Makima outside in are valid win conditions. Merely knowing an ability exists does not stop Makima from being hit by it, especially when she lacks other essential information (like where Momo is and how Dreams is activated) and that said ability is thought-based or triggers automatically when she steps into the Behemoth.
 
Not trying to argue with you, but

It’s unknown what possible contracts Makima could theoretically make to defeat Asa. It can be conceded that Makima could make a contract similar to Santa Claus, but in the same vein Makima could just…not make effective contracts. As in, Makima just throws stuff at the wall to see what works. She could make a contract stipulating that Asa must be killed in trade for the lives of other people, but then Makima doesn’t have access to any type of Death Manipulation, so it’d naturally have to be done through AP, and Asa is already as strong as characters later in the series. Or she could try to throw people into a blender and spam contracts with the Zombie Devil

All this to say that banking on an ambiguous, ill defined win condition like “She just makes a contract to win” is kinda…y’know. Cosmo is RIGHT there btw (unironically Asa can counter this by pushing out Cosmo out of his mind before she Mind Haxes if she decides to yap like she did against Santa Claus)

Asa doesn’t necessarily need to kill Makima to win. Using Dreams to mog or Abeyance to petrify Makima outside in are valid win conditions. Merely knowing an ability exists does not stop Makima from being hit by it, especially when she lacks other essential information (like where Momo is and how Dreams is activated) and that said ability is thought-based or triggers automatically when she steps into the Behemoth.
She could have Aging age manip him, he has no immo 1 after all. She could have Aging bfr him with a point like he did to Yoru. Have FD incap him mentally. Already brought up Hell BFR too. Cosmo might work too I don't disagree. I don't think Makima really gets incapped by that or petrified. Why wouldn't that get redirected?
 
Why wouldn't that get redirected?
Because It does not kill you and is meant to non-lethally beat the enemy, Asa petrified Momo Yozakura with Abeyance and left him like that for 5 years.
Same would go for his severance spatial hax which divides someone's body without actually physically cutting them.
 
Inb4 Arkenis says something like “Petrification exists in CSM, so Makima should be able to redirect being petrified”
 
She could have Aging age manip him, he has no immo 1 after all.
Hey Jack, does Asa still have his longevity in Taiyo’s body? I would assume not, but maybe the effects of the pills get transferred over?
She could have Aging bfr him with a point like he did to Yoru.
This is not something Makima could or will do. Aging is off doing his own thing and doesn’t gaf about Makima and Makima herself has never once contacted Aging for the purposes of helping her in a fight. Not that Aging would even accept anyways.
FD incap him mentally
Depends on how it works because Asa can always eject someone from his mind.
 
Outside Influence: None. No characters of either verse, aside from those participating in the battle, may influence the outcome of the battle in any way. That means they may not join the fight, grant buffs, create shields, provide information etc. Exceptions are things like blessings, calling upon some higher entities' power for a spell, summoning familiars to battle for them, having another character as equipment, or more generally spoken the things which are listed on the profile as part of a character's own powers and abilities.
making new contracts with primals def counts as outside help
 
Was going to say that too, but I wanted to give CSM the benefit of the doubt.
 
Hey Jack, does Asa still have his longevity in Taiyo’s body? I would assume not, but maybe the effects of the pills get transferred over?
Longevity is still maintained in Taiyo’s body
Asa in his original body was 300 years old and didn’t look a day over his mid 20’s actually
It’s the whole reason he stole Taiyo’s body, cause Taiyo could resist the negative affects of Tsubomi’s blood which made him need the pills. Essentially making him ‘truly immortal’ so to speak.
Even if Asa was aged tbh I doubt it’d be noticeable

Tsubomi Yozakura who has the same longevity still looks like a 14 year old 300 years later.

The only ability that got worse / weaker was Asa’s type 8 when going from his own body to Taiyo’s and that wasn’t the body transfers fault as explained on the profile.
 
TRUE

To put it more precisely, I’m taking about Thought-based Death Hax and not Angel’s Death Hax, because good luck getting anywhere within a hundred meters of Asa without Abeyance or Void ripping Public Safety apart, swords included.
 
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