Removing WOG from Ben 10

[GeneralSol16]

First of all, WTF are you clowns even talking about? The Cosmology doesn't use a freaking statement that isn't a support of the support, of course you wouldn't know, you haven't even read anything at all.

It's crazy how "McDuffie's Law" (AKA the idea of "if it isn't in the show, it isn't canon") is so consistent. I think it's pretty strange how people have outright ignored it for so long

I agree with the OP, the evidence here for both rule-breaking WoG stuff and the fact that the QnA isn't canon is overwhelming

Excuse me?????

Agree with OP

It does, but the issue is that a random dude online asking how many biggatons a character can make or if they x-versal is semi-expected from the internet. The issue I'm talking about is the profiles using said statements for justifications.

Like do we actually use those quotes for any justifications or did a random person on the internet just ask the question?

Now, Fullerton's stamens inclyded things like the movies, even tho those were literally canon, being referenced huge mounts of times.

Secondly, MoA actually says something very different from them, yk,the actual creators of the show.

Thirdly, half of them ARE NOT WOG, but trivia that was released along the episodes, official, in-verse statements. Or guidebooks / series' bibles and some support evidence. The actual part of the Verse that used WoG was the Reboot, but we do not care about it

Go scan by scan,we which one are VS leading questions, remove thème and leave those aren't even social media, questions or whatever

 

[GeneralSol16]

Btw, what a way to keep those who aren't just casual watchers away from this, not tagging the Verse at all? That's low

 

[Reiner04]

Was this applied to the profiles? If so, then yeah it would.

Once again reiterating that what users ask on social media is irrelevant, unless it's been used on the profiles.

Nah they were never applied. I think its general rule here that such leading questions arent accepted here anyways, so that goes w/o saying. MC duffie was merely an author and i don't think he holds any right over canonicity of the franchise especially when duncan (creator of Ben 10) himself has made statement against it. The OP, in specific, is saying we should never take any statement of creators regarding canonicity which is pretty much only source to determine canonicity for Ben 10, as far i know.

Anyways i don't see any point in it there have never been any issue with WOG here. We have specific rules regarding them, so i disagree with going verse specific in such a non issue.

 

[ShionAH]

I have tears of joy, this is magnificent. Ben 10 found dead in a ditch

 

[Chariot190]

Btw, what a way to keep those who aren't just casual watchers away from this, not tagging the Verse at all? That's low

Or they forgot because be real, why even hide it, it's not some subtle iffy?
I'd recommend actually proving your point instead of being accusatory to OP.

 

[GeneralSol16]

Or they forgot because be real, why even hide it, it's not some subtle iffy?
I'd recommend actually proving your point instead of being accusatory to OP.

Like I did a comment above of that you quoted? Nah, don't think so

 

[Hecky2222]

Nah they were never applied. I think its general rule here that such leading questions arent accepted here anyways, so that goes w/o saying. MC duffie was merely an author and i don't think he holds any right over canonicity of the franchise especially when duncan (creator of Ben 10) himself has made statement against it. The OP, in specific, is saying we should never take any statement of creators regarding canonicity which is pretty much only source to determine canonicity for Ben 10, as far i know.

Anyways i don't see any point in it there have never been any issue with WOG here. We have specific rules regarding them, so i disagree with going verse specific in such a non issue.

Reiner stop wanking Alien Ex. He aint boundless

 

[Chariot190]

Like I did a comment above of that you quoted? Nah, don't think so

I would pray you have more to say beyond just that, and being accusatory regardless is extremely poor behavior. But hell don't take the advice and act like that ig, not like you're in a thread with two dozen mods watching it...

 

[Reiner04]

Reiner stop wanking Alien Ex. He aint boundless

I mean, even if we were to remove everything aside from the show, the entirety of it, including guidebooks, based on the logic 'if it’s not in the show, then it’s non-canon', it wouldn't matter (That claim comes from an author who doesn't even have the right to determine canonicity per our rules, especially since the creator of the show has directly spoken against it). Even if we did remove everything aside from show, it wouldn't bring any relevant change to the profiles, cosmology, etc. It would just be wrong, and nothing more.

 

[Lonkitt]

First of all, WTF are you clowns even talking about? The Cosmology doesn't use a freaking statement that isn't a support of the support, of course you wouldn't know, you haven't even read anything at all.

Like I did a comment above of that you quoted? Nah, don't think so

Insulting users isn't helping your case

Now, Fullerton's stamens inclyded things like the movies, even tho those were literally canon, being referenced huge mounts of times.

Something like Secret of the Omnitrix is referenced in the show. It's canon. The endless horde of WoG statements on the pages, on the other hand, are not in the show

There's a difference. You even said yourself that the movies (it's really only the movies) that get referenced in the show. Ergo, it's canon by McDuffie's Law

Secondly, MoA actually says something very different from them, yk,the actual creators of the show.

Cool statement, but it doesn't debunk anything here....

Thirdly, half of them ARE NOT WOG, but trivia that was released along the episodes, official, in-verse statements. Or guidebooks / series' bibles and some support evidence. The actual part of the Verse that used WoG was the Reboot, but we do not care about it

Go scan by scan,we which one are VS leading questions, remove thème and leave those aren't even social media, questions or whatever

Let's go over this:

• Guidebooks aren't the show
• Series bibles aren't the show and even checking them out, they're rather not up to date with the final product. Alien Force has a series bible you can find and it's pretty much early drafts. Often, series bibles are meant as pitching material to studios and producers, but not everything within them comes out. Once again, the Alien Force series bible is a great example of this, a lot of the stuff in there was scrapped from the final product. Also, the series bible is not the show.
• Why don't you care about the Reboot? It's on the verse page. Also, not caring about it doesn't make your point stronger
• Everything Amon collected is WoG. How can you say it's not...? I feel like you're ignoring a lot

You have yet to really provide an actual counter-argument here

 

[Cipher72]

Even if we did remove everything aside from show, it wouldn't bring any relevant change to the profiles, cosmology, etc.

So what's the second segment of the OP about ?

Abilities that should be removed

 

[Lonkitt]

Nah they were never applied. I think its general rule here that such leading questions arent accepted here anyways, so that goes w/o saying. MC duffie was merely an author and i don't think he holds any right over canonicity of the franchise especially when duncan (creator of Ben 10) himself has made statement against it. The OP, in specific, is saying we should never take any statement of creators regarding canonicity which is pretty much only source to determine canonicity for Ben 10, as far i know.

Anyways i don't see any point in it there have never been any issue with WOG here. We have specific rules regarding them, so i disagree with going verse specific in such a non issue.

I think brushing this off as McDuffie being one creative mind in all this is ignoring the fact that "McDuffie's Law", as shown in the OP, was carried on even after his unfortunate passing. Charlotte, for example, kept that idea, as did the other writers that the OP mentioned

Also, you didn't address WoG statements for the cosmology or abilities in the OP

 

[Hecky2222]

I mean, even if we were to remove everything aside from the show, the entirety of it, including guidebooks, based on the logic 'if it’s not in the show, then it’s non-canon', it wouldn't matter (That claim comes from an author who doesn't even have the right to determine canonicity per our rules, especially since the creator of the show has directly spoken against it). Even if we did remove everything aside from show, it wouldn't bring any relevant change to the profiles, cosmology, etc. It would just be wrong, and nothing more.

well from what i see from scans, some of the abilities rely on WoG , i don't think cosmology would suffer from it and OP didn't mention it ig?(Not 26D nuking soon). Unless that abilities can be replaced by canon show with evidence from it I am fine with changes

 

[Lonkitt]

well from what i see from scans, some of the abilities rely on WoG , i don't think cosmology would suffer from it and OP didn't mention it ig?(Not 26D nuking soon). Unless that abilities can be replaced by canon show with evidence from it I am fine with changes

The cosmology page would definitely needs some edits because of this. WoG is why each universe is considered infinite, as shown in the OP and on the cosmology page

 

[Lonkitt]

I think brushing this off as McDuffie being one creative mind in all this is ignoring the fact that "McDuffie's Law", as shown in the OP, was carried on even after his unfortunate passing. Charlotte, for example, kept that idea, as did the other writers that the OP mentioned

Also just the fact that McDuffie played a MAJOR role in writing a GIGANTIC portion of Ben 10. He was by no means a minor player in that show's direction

 

[Hecky2222]

The cosmology page would definitely needs some edits because of this. WoG is why each universe is considered infinite, as shown in the OP and on the cosmology page

After rereading the cosmology page, I still don't see a major downgrade for cosmology itself still

 

[GeneralSol16]

Something like Secret of the Omnitrix is referenced in the show. It's canon. The endless horde of WoG statements on the pages, on the other hand, are not in the show

There's a difference. You even said yourself that the movies (it's really only the movies) that get referenced in the show. Ergo, it's canon by McDuffie's Law

Alien Swarm, Secret of the Omnitrix and Destruir All Aliens are among those "if not in the series, not canon"z even tho these are clearly canon, proving how poor her knowledge is about the topic.

Cool statement, but it doesn't debunk anything here....

Are you serious? Literally a heavier author going against a lesser author, like fr

Let's go over this:

• Guidebooks aren't the show
• Series bibles aren't the show and even checking them out, they're rather not up to date with the final product.

Not only he has ZERO authority over it, but it is not either.

• Alien Force has a series bible you can find and it's pretty much early drafts. Often, series bibles are meant as pitching material to studios and producers, but not everything within them comes out. Once again, the Alien Force series bible is a great example of this, a lot of the stuff in there was scrapped from the final product. Also, the series bible is not the show.

Eh? Everything mentioned in the show vines from it, literally just ******* read it.

• Why don't you care about the Reboot? It's on the verse page. Also, not caring about it doesn't make your point stronger
• Everything Amon collected is WoG. How can you say it's not...? I feel like you're ignoring a lot

The reboot is a whole different mess that doesn't affect Ben Prime as it follows different rules

 

[Reiner04]

So what's the second segment of the OP about ?

relevant.

I think brushing this off as McDuffie being one creative mind in all this is ignoring the fact that "McDuffie's Law", as shown in the OP, was carried on even after his unfortunate passing. Charlotte, for example, kept that idea, as did the other writers that the OP mentioned

Also, you didn't address WoG statements for the cosmology or abilities in the OP

McDuffie married comic book and television writer Charlotte Fullerton in 2009.[11].

She is his wife so i am not surprised.

The cosmology page would definitely needs some edits because of this. WoG is why each universe is considered infinite, as shown in the OP and on the cosmology page

Universe being infinite, nullvoid being infinite comes from the novel adaption of the show episodes 1:1 with novel just adding some extra info about places.

Ben 10 - Universe Size High 3-A Proposal (Accepted)

Thanks to @Reiner and Guruguru for finding these sources and scans. Proposal: Universes and dimensions of Ben 10 should be upgraded to High 3-A from 3-A. We can discuss what feats are affected by this in a different thread. Reasoning: Novelizations of the episodes from a prominent show writer...

vsbattles.com

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Crazy how a thread can be FRA chained by mods while some of us are still sleeping LMAO

Anyways I don’t have an opinion on if this goes through or not, though I see the merits in not allowing WoG for the verse. However I have a couple questions:

1. Would Pop-Up Trivia count for this? iirc Derrick J. Wyatt once said that Omniverse incorporated any of the trivia they were aware of into the show (such as Ben and Kai getting together and being married in the future) or something along those lines, so I feel like anything not contradicted by later series changes could still be used as supporting evidence for stuff.
2. How much evidence would you need to prove a statement is true in the series? For example the statement that Ultimate Kevin has every alien isn’t confirmed in the series, but based on what we’re told and shown it’s the most reasonable assumption to make.

(Pardon the lack of scans or anything, I’ve not long woken up)

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Crazy how a thread can be FRA chained by mods while some of us are still sleeping LMAO

Anyways I don’t have an opinion on if this goes through or not, though I see the merits in not allowing WoG for the verse. However I have a couple questions:

1. Would Pop-Up Trivia count for this? iirc Derrick J. Wyatt once said that Omniverse incorporated any of the trivia they were aware of into the show (such as Ben and Kai getting together and being married in the future) or something along those lines, so I feel like anything not contradicted by later series changes could still be used as supporting evidence for stuff.
2. How much evidence would you need to prove a statement is true in the series? For example the statement that Ultimate Kevin has every alien isn’t confirmed in the series, but based on what we’re told and shown it’s the most reasonable assumption to make.

(Pardon the lack of scans or anything, I’ve not long woken up)

Morning

 

[Lonkitt]

She is his wife so i am not surprised.

Wife or not, she had creative control. Please don't downplay her word here because of her marriage

(Side note, that was INCREDIBLY disrespectful of you to say Reiner, wtf)

Universe being infinite, nullvoid being infinite comes from the novel adaption of the show episodes 1:1 with novel just adding some extra info about places.

Ben 10 - Universe Size High 3-A Proposal (Accepted)

Thanks to @Reiner and Guruguru for finding these sources and scans. Proposal: Universes and dimensions of Ben 10 should be upgraded to High 3-A from 3-A. We can discuss what feats are affected by this in a different thread. Reasoning: Novelizations of the episodes from a prominent show writer...

vsbattles.com

The novel isn't the show, and ergo, wouldn't be considered canon by McDuffie's Law

 

[Reiner04]

The novel isn't the show, and ergo, wouldn't be considered canon by McDuffie's Law

Thats some weird law considering how our rules don't allow authors to have a say over canonicity of entire franchise atm but ig if thats what determined about this thread.

 

[Lonkitt]

Thats some weird law considering how our rules don't allow authors to have a say over canonicity of entire franchise atm but ig if thats what determined about this thread.

Different rules for different verses. This isn't new by any means, verses have different rules on the wiki based on what those with authority in the franchise say about them

Something like DMC considers lots of side material to be canon. They're not very subtle about it. Ben 10, on the other hand, has multiple writers saying "if it's not in the show, it isn't canon". Heck, Charlotte even said that about the books, comic books, and video games and shown in the video in the OP. The very same side content she wrote. She says they're non-canon

Deciding to go "Let's use WoG, oh but not the statements where they say only the show is canon" is cherrypicking. It's very strange how some people will bring up show writers as back up for canon, but when those writers say the side stuff isn't canon, people are conveniently ignoring it

 

[Hecky2222]

Heck,

I am here, mister.

 

[Reiner04]

After rereading the cosmology page, I still don't see a major downgrade for cosmology itself still

Major one's are definitely not there. None scales to cosmology anyways aside from one species.

Different rules for different verses.

If there is a reason for verse specifics rules. If not then:

Author approval alone does not confer canonical status upon adaptations. Such material is considered part of the primary continuity only when the creator or rights holders explicitly confirm its integration into, or priority over, the original timeline—for instance, through statements verifying that specific events, scenes, or elements genuinely occur within it (e.g., "These scenes originate from material in my notes that was omitted from the initial release but belongs in the core story.") Mere involvement, minor supervision, general praise, or characterizations of the work as a "faithful adaptation" remain insufficient to establish new content as official canon; all determinations continue to be made on a case-by-case basis, with these criteria serving as guidelines rather than an exhaustive standard.

 

[Lonkitt]

If there is a reason for verse specifics rules. If not then:

Just because there's not verse specific rules doesn't mean there can't/won't ever be. That's a rather disingenuous stance to take here, especially since there should be rules put in place here given what the OP has shared

Keep in mind, this isn't even a case of the writers going "it's not in the final product, but it's in the core story". It's the writers going "yeah, that ain't canon. Only the show is canon"

 

[Hecky2222]

Major one's are definitely not there. None scales to cosmology anyways aside from one species.

Well, removing one WoG wouldn't downscale 1B. They need better args anyway if they want to axe 1B stuff. Regardless, Alien Ex is still Tier 0 cuz you said so

 

[Chariot190]

Major one's are definitely not there. None scales to cosmology anyways aside from one species.

If there is a reason for verse specifics rules. If not then:

If that is for the anime canon bullshit thread, bit of a misuse going on there. Context obviously matters and a slew of verses have that.

 

[GeneralSol16]

Different rules for different verses. This isn't new by any means, verses have different rules on the wiki based on what those with authority in the franchise say about them

Something like DMC considers lots of side material to be canon. They're not very subtle about it. Ben 10, on the other hand, has multiple writers saying "if it's not in the show, it isn't canon". Heck, Charlotte even said that about the books, comic books, and video games and shown in the video in the OP. The very same side content she wrote. She says they're non-canon

Deciding to go "Let's use WoG, oh but not the statements where they say only the show is canon" is cherrypicking. It's very strange how some people will bring up show writers as back up for canon, but when those writers say the side stuff isn't canon, people are conveniently ignoring it

Those statements not only refer to their blog opinions, but they contradict each other.

Once again, she saying that the movies of all things aren't canon proves she knows shit about the topic.

 

[Reiner04]

If that is for the anime canon bullshit thread, bit of a misuse going on there. Context obviously matters and a slew of verses have that.

I did said "If there is reason for verse specifics rule", Ben 10 already have other medias established as canon by Duncan (who is creator of Ben 10), and general rule of canonicity is explicitly stated on the canonicity page, i do think some verses can differ from general rule but i don't find any reason convincing enough for Ben 10 to be one.

 

[Lonkitt]

Those statements not only refer to their blog opinions, but they contradict each other.

Once again, she saying that the movies of all things aren't canon proves she knows shit about the topic.

It's never once said those statements just refer to blog opinions. That is an outright lie

No....? She's saying if it's not in the show, it isn't canon. Secret of the Omnitrix, like I brought up before but you ignored, is referenced in the show, and hence canon. So no, she's not wrong. She knows what she's talking about

Also, you're saying Charlotte "doesn't know shit" about the topic, despite the fact she's been a major writing for much of Ben 10's lifespan

If she truly doesn't know as much as you think so does, then it seems weird for supporters of the verse to use the stuff she's writing for the show as canon. You can't have it both ways man, either she's a reliable source or she """doesn't know shit"""

 

[Chariot190]

Those statements not only refer to their blog opinions, but they contradict each other.

As opposed to... Their twitter opinions?

Once again, she saying that the movies of all things aren't canon proves she knows shit about the topic.

If you're saying an author doesn't know shit, what makes any of their other statements different? They're clearly not reliable according to you, right?

 

[Reiner04]

If you're saying an author doesn't know shit, what makes any of their other statements different? They're clearly not reliable according to you, right?

I am not sure if we are using any of MC duffie statement on the profiles honestly.

 

[Lonkitt]

I am not sure if we are using any of MC duffie statement on the profiles honestly.

They are tho? The OP has gone over these things? I mean, here's just one example from Alien X's profile. Again just ONE example, there's plenty more

 

[Reiner04]

They are tho? The OP has gone over these things? I mean, here's just one example from Alien X's profile. Again just ONE example, there's plenty more

Yeah thats why i said not sure since i don't usually see his statements being brought up in threads, but i am p sure there aren't many aside from few.

 

[GeneralSol16]

As opposed to... Their twitter opinions?.

That "Twitter account" is the actual creator's,lmao

And no, it goes against the shoe itself.

If you're saying an author doesn't know shit, what makes any of their other statements different? They're clearly not reliable according to you, right?

I don't care about their WoGs I said I was against removing everything that isn't a WoG.

 

[Chariot190]

That "Twitter account" is the actual creator's,lmao

I'm aware. Unfortunately consistency, their own standards, and so much more play a role and yet it seems like you're very much cherrypicking on when and where a line needs to be drawn and the vast majority haven't actually been scrutinized properly even ignoring the whole canonicity debacle, also, I would highly recommend discussing shit without that tone if you want to be taken seriously.

 

[Lonkitt]

Yeah thats why i said not sure since i don't usually see his statements being brought up in threads, but i am p sure there aren't many aside from few.

Why are we talking about statements in threads? Do we have pages on threads? We're talking about statements on wiki pages

Charlotte didn't even say they're non-canon here. She just said "if it isn't in the show, it isn't canon". She's just repeating the canon rule

Alien Swarm has references within the show, but Destroy All Aliens doesn't

Make of that what you will

 

[Reiner04]

That "Twitter account" is the actual creator's,lmao

And no, it goes against the shoe itself.

Notice how she mentions MC duffie in every canonicity related statement and proceeds to says i believe it too. Definitely an opinion of her own regarding canonicity she believes in cause of her husband.

And yeah, those movies are canon since they directly had referenced in the show.

 

[Hecky2222]

If we hypothetically let non WoG statements stay FRA, what would be removed and what would stay