Undertale: The big part of the series of big revisions, featuring Tier 1 and other things (Part 3/4)

[Eden_Warlock99]

This doesn't respond actually anything I said so we can conclude here. I already established my reasons. The staff can vote whatever they want.

You didn't really address the several timelines being under a singular spacetime continuum thing that sans brings up. Any thoughts on that?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Sometimes I forget my own args which would've easily solved a lot of debates if said them earlier, my shitty memory strikes again

But yeah good point.

 

[Mommyleona]

︎ ︎●︎✌︎❍︎☜︎ ☝︎✌︎︎❄︎☜︎☼︎ ☞︎⚐︎☼︎ ☜︎✞︎☜︎☼︎✡︎❄︎☟︎︎■︎☝︎ (I agree)

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

You didn't really address the several timelines being under a singular spacetime continuum thing that sans brings up. Any thoughts on that?

That dialogue doesn’t indicate that all timelines are under a single timeline.

A large distortion in space-time had just occured.
The flow of time has been jumping around chaotically... stopping, then moving about again...
And then suddenly, everything comes to an end.

What it means is that the timeline/flow of time is jumping from one side to another for a unspecified reason associated with the player. That was the interpretation of the text previously, but now there is an attempt to use the Japanese scans to obscure the syntax and try to give it a different connotation than what the statement originally conveyed.

That statement itself is intentionally vague and inconclusive meant to emphasize the mystery behind the character.

We don’t know what it means by “suddenly everything comes to an end,” because if this referred to the RESET itself, then it wouldn’t make sense for Sans to have "reports" in the first place. Those reports would be lost with the RESET (and clearly, Sans's statement refers to the past, meaning it happened before the fight against him, which further undermines the idea that this is about resets).

This is even more questionable because Sans says the same lines even if you do the Genocide run as your first route and never die (so no RESET occurs), and considering how meticulous Toby is with route differences, this raises concerns.

Therefore, there is no conclusive evidence that there is a higher temporal dimension in UT.

 

[StrymULTRA]

What it means is that the timeline/flow of time is jumping from one side to another for a unspecified reason associated with the player. That was the interpretation of the text previously, but now there is an attempt to use the Japanese scans to obscure the syntax and try to give it a different connotation than what the statement originally conveyed.

Is this an attempt to say that the Japanese version cannot be used to give more interpretation to the og text? Because it can indeed be used as an expansion of lines that otherwise are left vague.

That statement itself is intentionally vague and inconclusive meant to emphasize the mystery behind the character.

Not really? You're just isolating a specific piece of evidence to make it sound vague, when everything supports the idea that timelines spawn in a single flow of time.

As I mentioned above already, these are pieces of evidence that together make up why the SAVE File works as a higher temporal dimension, which would also explain the specific on how the Game World acts as a container of the timelines beneath it.

Like I'd agree that just the Sans statement isn't enough for Tier 1, but everything else like how the SAVE exists regardless of the timeline you end in or how the SAVE still counts the time passed after the destruction of the timeline, it makes me strongly believe that the Game World acts as something superior to the timelines that it contains.

This is even more questionable because Sans says the same lines even if you do the Genocide run as your first route and never die (so no RESET occurs), and considering how meticulous Toby is with route differences, this raises concerns.

No it doesn't? Sans simply loses his memories just like Flowey and Frisk do because of the TRUE RESET being used, the game is just restored at fabric settings, just like it was at the first playthough.

 

[Diamond_Drone]

This is even more questionable because Sans says the same lines even if you do the Genocide run as your first route and never die (so no RESET occurs), and considering how meticulous Toby is with route differences, this raises concerns.

That's because the Anomaly is Flowey and likely the 6 previous humans. Flowey tells you how he used the Saves and Resets to see everything the world had to offer moments before you fight Sans in the Geno Route. Frisk's actions don't really matter because there were people before them who had the same powers.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Is this an attempt to say that the Japanese version cannot be used to give more interpretation to the og text? Because it can indeed be used as an expansion of lines that otherwise are left vague.

Both texts say exactly the same thing; the only thing that changes is the sentence structure because Japanese and English structure sentences in completely different ways.

There is no "expansion" or additional context.

As I mentioned above already, these are pieces of evidence that together make up why the SAVE File works as a higher temporal dimension, which would also explain the specific on how the Game World acts as a container of the timelines beneath it.

I already questioned your Hyper Goner argument by proposing an alternative that is even more coherent with the in-game context of the verse. You literally have an entire section in your blog talking about how game mechanics are canon.

You know how a save function works, right? It stores specific data from the current playthrough to later "update" it on the device when using the LOAD option. This doesn’t require any higher temporal dimension, and the scans you’re using in your own blog actually support this view more than the one where you add elements that were never even mentioned in the story.

There isn't any correlation between that in-verse mechanic and the existence of whatever higher temporal axis you are arguing.

Like I'd agree that just the Sans statement isn't enough for Tier 1, but everything else like how the SAVE exists regardless of the timeline you end in or how the SAVE still counts the time passed after the destruction of the timeline, it makes me strongly believe that the Game World acts as something superior to the timelines that it contains.

"Game worlds" are simply the "structure" of the game. Why would it be a higher dimension in the first place?

If there isn’t any higher dimensional branching that creates those worlds, then there is no reason to assume that something more exists.

That’s the problem with the majority of these "hypertimelines" headcanons.

No it doesn't? Sans simply loses his memories just like Flowey and Frisk do because of the TRUE RESET being used, the game is just restored at fabric settings.

No, it doesn't what? Are you seriously lying about Sans not saying the same dialogue even if the Genocide route is your first route?

That’s incredibly dishonest, not gonna lie.

If there is any kind of RESET, then Sans shouldn’t have any "reports" about those things because everything is subjected to the reset itself.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

That's because the Anomaly is Flowey and likely the 6 previous humans. Flowey tells you how he used the Saves and Resets to see everything the world had to offer moments before you fight Sans in the Geno Route. Frisk's actions don't really matter because there were people before them who had the same powers.

Again, if that part of the dialogue is talking about RESETS then Sans shouldn't have any kind of reports about those phenomena. It's literally contradictory.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Alright. I completely disagree with the Low 1-C then.

Good point, I shall immediately concede and request closure of this CRT.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Both texts say exactly the same thing; the only thing that changes is the sentence structure because Japanese and English structure sentences in completely different ways.

There is no "expansion" or additional context.

It reinforces the core idea of a higher flow of times where the timelines get spawned in, I meant that.

I already questioned your Hyper Goner argument by proposing an alternative that is even more coherent with the in-game context of the verse. You literally have an entire section in your blog talking about how game mechanics are canon.

And I literally replied with a section of the Misconception blog that specifically targets the notion of the SAVE File merely recording your progress.

"Game worlds" are simply the "structure" of the game. Why would it be a higher dimension in the first place?

By gathering information that we get from the lore and other elements in the story?

That’s the problem with the majority of these "hypertimelines" headcanons.

It seems to me you've simply got an issue with how Hypertimelines work here in the first place. The SAVE File quite literally has the qualms of being stated to be a higher space-time with feats.

No, it doesn't what? Are you seriously lying about Sans not saying the same dialogue even if the Genocide route is your first route?

Never claimed this, just that Sans having the same dialogue regardless of the route you take isn't something that is relevant. He could have been perfectly mean DT users that predate Frisk such as Flowey and the other 6 Humans.

Again, if that part of the dialogue is talking about RESETS then Sans shouldn't have any kind of reports about those phenomena. It's literally contradictory.

Why wouldn't he lol? It's not like we're the first DT users in-universe, Flowey literally could use the SAVE right until Frisk gets in the Underground.

Good point, I shall immediately concede and request closure of this CRT.

More humbling words have never been spoken.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

It reinforces the core idea of a higher flow of times where the timelines get spawned in, I meant that.

It doesn't. I already addressed that in my previous messages.

And I literally replied with a section of the Misconception blog that specifically targets the notion of the SAVE File merely recording your progress.

This notion has some merit but completely ignores everything else that was explained in the dedicated section in the Cosmology Blog which heavily supports instead the presence of multiple timelines, like Flowey mentioning that a RESET physically takes the inhabitants of the old timeline to the new one, the déjà vus that the characters without Determination have after a RESET (which cannot happen if the old timeline gets rewritten as that'd erase the actions that these characters supposedly remember), Goner Kid reffering to the timelines where they do not exist due to these lacking the Fun event where they spawn in, or also the SAVE Point still being able to be accessed in the new timeline after a RESET.

This part is completely irrelevant to my argument.

This interpretation would also make Sans' statement about multiple timelines stopping and starting nonsensical, given that not only he wouldn't see any new timeline being started despite using the plural, as the only one would just be reset over and over, but also ignores that the statement hints to the fact that the old timeline "stops" to make the new timeline "start" in its place. In fact, it should be reminded that stopping does not equate to destroying, as a driver does not cause the destruction of their car when they stop its motor to turn it off, for example.

This part is also irrelevant to my argument.

Last, but not least, that Sans' statement is taken out of context, as he meant more that these timelines are "consumed" due to Frisk not giving them a chance to progress because of their abuse of LOADs and RESETs, rather than literally deleting them.

Okay???

This is total cherry picking as even this ignores everything else that was brought in support to the notion of timelines needing to still physically exist. Going to mention it again, characters who lack Determination like Flowey, despite not truly remembering, still experience déjà vus after RESETs, heavily implying that the previous actions still exist in the previous timelines, same with Flowey stating that everyone gets ripped apart from the previous timeline to go in the new one, which supports even more the idea of Frisk literally leaving behind their old SAVE Point in the previous timeline.

I’ve never said nor questioned that other timelines actually exist. This part of the argument doesn’t attack at all the idea that the SAVE function simply stores data from the timeline where it’s used, and then applies that same data to another timeline.

In summary, strawman.

By the information we have, it's far more likely than not that the SAVE Point would just be totally erased if it's just the same timeline, as the old version of the timeline would be gone in this case, with both the actions made in it and the last SAVE Point being also gone as a result, which would make Frisk unable to go back there, something that is not the case as shown above.

I've never argued this either. So what did you refute exactly?

By gathering information that we get from the lore and other elements in the story?

Holy circular argument.

It seems to me you've simply got an issue with how Hypertimelines work here in the first place. The SAVE File quite literally has the qualms of being stated to be a higher space-time with feats.

Never stated. The strategy of ignoring everything I say it's not a good one yk.

Never claimed this, just that Sans having the same dialogue regardless of the route you take isn't something that is relevant. He could have been perfectly mean DT users that predate Frisk such as Flowey and the other 6 Humans.

It is relevant what? It literally debunks the notion that he is talking about RESET done by the player, so that mean the entire basis of your Low 1-C argument falls apart.

Why wouldn't he lol? It's not like we're the first DT users in-universe, Flowey literally could use the SAVE right until Frisk gets in the Underground.

Acausality type 4 reports chat

 

[StrymULTRA]

It doesn't. I already addressed that in my previous messages.

I'll just start to ignore all the "I already debunked that prior" that do not not really target what I am really saying.

This part of the argument doesn’t attack at all the idea that the SAVE function simply stores data from the timeline where it’s used, and then applies that same data to another timeline.

In summary, strawman.

If that is your argument, then I'll just call it a headcanon. You're basically enforcing something that just isn't supported from the source material, especially given that you cannot store data from a timeline that doesn't exist anymore.

Holy circular argument.

This also isn't an argument, what?

Never stated. The strategy of ignoring everything I say it's not a good one yk.

"never stated", literally is called that in the blog that you're spamming a bunch of "it's not because I say so"

It is relevant what? It literally debunks the notion that he is talking about RESET done by the player, so that mean the entire basis of your Low 1-C argument falls apart.

Acausality type 4 reports chat

Literally how does it debunk it? Sans himself has no memories about LOADs and RESETs for one, and second it's not like the SAVE File magically changes on a fundamental level simply because we can use it unlike Flowey.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Agree with everything

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I'll just start to ignore all the "I already debunked that prior" that do not not really target what I am really saying.

If that is your argument, then I'll just call it a headcanon. You're basically enforcing something that just isn't supported from the source material, especially given that you cannot store data from a timeline that doesn't exist anymore.

This also isn't an argument, what?

"never stated", literally is called that in the blog that you're spamming a bunch of "it's not because I say so"


Literally how does it debunk it? Sans himself has no memories about LOADs and RESETs for one, and second it's not like the SAVE File magically changes on a fundamental level simply because we can use it unlike Flowey.

Yeah we can conclude. Let's wait for staff members.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Ngl, after reading through the blogs and this thread, I don't think Low 1-C is valid. ExcelsisBerny's arguments make more sense to me than the Low 1-C supporters. Everything else seems fine to me tho.

 

[Hecky2222]

Everything seems fine except for Low 1C. ExcelsisBerny makes sense here to me

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

L1C? Give more explanation or info for that
Everything else is fine
Ngl the whole blog looks like it was thrown together very quickly but I agree w everything except L1C

 

[StrymULTRA]

L1C? Give more explanation or info for that

What exactly do you need? I tried to make it as clear as possible.

Ngl the whole blog looks like it was thrown together very quickly but I agree w everything except L1C

It's something that was in the plans from quite the months lol

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

What exactly do you need? I tried to make it as clear as possible.

More info on the timeline , and how Hypergoner state was devouring timelines and such. Explain sans info better. He's observant and knows of them but he doesn't remember them exactly , Deja vu
Mention frisk/chara more. They're very aware of the resets too , via save code from geno run

It's something that was in the plans from quite the months lol

I figured, Undertale is not a game to quote on quote rush each run has a lot of content and context that the last run never tells you about. I've watched DT gameplay and it's the exact same.

 

[StrymULTRA]

More info on the timeline , and how Hypergoner state was devouring timelines and such. Explain sans info better. He's observant and knows of them but he doesn't remember them exactly , Deja vu

I really think you gotta re-read it more carefully because everything got evidence (aka YT clips/Imgur albums) linked to it.

The entire deal about timelines was explained in already the current blog we use for the verse and has been expanded a bit in the new one. Hyper Goner is same, everything is already clear in the new blog, and all the possible refutes against the notion of LOADs/RESETs generating more timelines and Hyper Goner destroying the timeline have all been countered in the blog made for debunks (all about things that were argued for the verse both here and outside for years, not just here).

Mention frisk/chara more. They're very aware of the resets too , via save code from geno run

This already was elaborated in the section dedicated to Chara's end of genocide feat.

 

[BoastJr]

When will you pit them against Hoyoverse and Woody

They are starving for a matchup in Low 1C

 

[StrymULTRA]

When will you pit them against Hoyoverse and Woody

They are starving for a matchup in Low 1C

Frisk needing the ABSOLUTE PEAK of their sheer Determination to even being able to fight a cowboy toy.

 

[SnakesCity]

Frisk needing the ABSOLUTE PEAK of their sheer Determination to even being able to fight a cowboy toy.

Friend inside me

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

When will you pit them against Hoyoverse and Woody

They are starving for a matchup in Low 1C

Chara going band for band against a literal toy+all the deltarune friend theory memes would be a funny matchup
Heh, I was thinking of a KH matchup against Low 1-C Frisk (if this goes through) could be "fun" because their matchups are lacking and Sora also has a being bring him back to life, similarly to frisk, but then remembered that KH's Keyblade users (supposedly) have multiple layers of EE and EE resistance so putting them against Mr. "Friend inside me" is good enough for me

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Anti Low 1-C just got FRA trained
I guess that’s an ironic karma on UT fandom for FRA training Sans MUs

 

[StrymULTRA]

Anti Low 1-C just got FRA trained
I guess that’s an ironic karma on UT fandom for FRA training Sans MUs

Is the usage of the word "karma" on purpose lol

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Is the usage of the word "karma" on purpose lol

Yes. Yes it is.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

agree, you also should add agreements and disagreements

 

[StrymULTRA]

agree, you also should add agreements and disagreements

Only staff members do matter though. Plus we have just 1 vote rn.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Only staff members do matter though. Plus we have just 1 vote rn.

I know, but as we already have 1 we should add it imo

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

I really think you gotta re-read it more carefully because everything got evidence (aka YT clips/Imgur albums) linked to it.

The entire deal about timelines was explained in already the current blog we use for the verse and has been expanded a bit in the new one. Hyper Goner is same, everything is already clear in the new blog, and all the possible refutes against the notion of LOADs/RESETs generating more timelines and Hyper Goner destroying the timeline have all been countered in the blog made for debunks (all about things that were argued for the verse both here and outside for years, not just here).

This already was elaborated in the section dedicated to Chara's end of genocide feat.

Ok
I re-read and it all checks out
It's been long since I even touched Undertale so I lowk forgot some stuff, and rereading everything in blog helped my ahh remember stuff
Neutral leaning towards agree,
Still following thread

 

[Kellex]

I agree for reasons above. Btw nice Agnes Tachyon pfp.

 

[ZephyrArts]

Super truth Nova
Agree

 

[Justlol230]

Alright, pause.

Most of this relies on the JP translation, because "Toby knows Japanese since 2018 and can speak with JP people fluently enough, and also worked closely with the folk in the translation team" (e.g. the line saying Asriel will "destroy" the timeline instead of purge). I find this kinda ironic since most people do the inverse with things translated from CN or JP, with the argument being "most of those being inaccurate" despite a lot of them being officially endorsed by the creators themselves (e.g. Honkai).

I think we need to be more consistent. If we insist on using the Japanese translation for an originally English game, then we can use the English translation for most other non-EN verses. Otherwise, we need to stick with the original English version of the game.

Originally, in Undertale, Asriel says he  purges the timeline, which is more "cleaning" than "destroying".

The issue is the Japanese Translation was released... in 2017. As far as I remember from one of the wikis used for proof...

Even back in 2018-19 he managed to still hold conversations in full japanese with influent japanese developers like ZUN (translated highlights of the interview), Masahiro Sakurai, and in more recent times also Shigesato Itoi.
Toby worked with Hololive quite the times, a first example being Amane Kanata, who he worked with on the lyrics for a song called "Fallen Wing", something he said directly himself on Famitsu. The next is Honshou Marine, who he also worked on a song called "Dead Ma'am's Chest".
Speaking of Marine, she revealed that Toby has DM'd her revealing that Flowey's japanese "that's a wonderful idea" was actually his voice (check here if you wanna hear yourself). And this isn't even the only case. In fact, Toby said that he voices his own characters, with Jevil being one of the most prominent cases as his voiced sentences, both in English and Japanese, have the same voice.

NONE of these should apply, since it's from 2018-2019.

So I disagree.

 

[Justlol230]

I'd also like to add the date of "Toby practicing Japanese daily" being from 2019.

AFTER the translation was already released. We don't know how long he's been practicing it daily, and it could be during or only after the JP translation was being made/released.

 

[SnakesCity]

Originally, in Undertale, Asriel says he  purges the timeline, which is more "cleaning" than "destroying".

This is semantics.

I think we need to be more consistent. If we insist on using the Japanese translation for an originally English game, then we can use the English translation for most other non-EN verses. Otherwise, we need to stick with the original English version of the game.

If you had bothered to read it The OP and specifically the blog discussing canon already went over this, english is still the primary language and has priority when discussing the game but the JP translation can still be used to glean additional context or information, you're portraying the OP's argument dishonestly.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

I think we need to be more consistent. If we insist on using the Japanese translation for an originally English game, then we can use the English translation for most other non-EN verses. Otherwise, we need to stick with the original English version of the game.

OP already went through this

 

[Justlol230]

This is semantics.

If you had bothered to read it The OP and specifically the blog discussing canon already went over this, english is still the primary language and has priority when discussing the game but the JP translation can still be used to gleam additional context or information, you're portraying the OP's argument dishonestly.

This is semantics, and y'all are also using it. I don't see why it can't be used for a debunk either.

JP translation is already said to not be perfect, and trying to use it to gleam higher interpretations in a language that does not hold the original, truest intent of the story from the language it comes from means we either also have to use the English translations for other verses who are from other languages, or we simply don't use the not original JP translation.

And I've already addressed that all the confirmation of Toby knowing Japanese is after the translation was already uploaded. You didn't address this, you just went "go read the arguments again lol" instead of actually explaining.

 

[Justlol230]

OP already went through this

And I'm saying that trying to use it isn't correct. We did went over this, I disagree.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

It doesn't really matter, to be honest. Whatever language you use, there still isn’t any higher temporal dimension.