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Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

This is the grammar of gradation (climax and anticlimax) that Kamachi frequently uses.

Anticlimax (decreasing scale): All Phases -> All Dimensions -> All Elements.

Climax (increasing scale): Earth -> Universe -> World.


If the 'World' were merely a single universe as you claim, there would be no reason to use that grammatical structure at all.
Universe there is more than likely referring to physical space and the observable universe.

World is the above + Phases.

It's also very interesting that the anti-climax one has Phases as the highest, higher than even dimensions, but we know that cutting dimensions allows you to reach the most fundamental of Phases the kill its Guardian Angel.

I.e trying to argue there is some linear growth of powerscaling tiers just doesn't fit what Kamachi is telling us here.


As far as I know, even if a story's plot isn't canon, its setting can still be canon. Isn't that the case with To Aru as well?
Kinda, we just have to wait until the Goddess of the Ace vs Queen novel is brought up in canon.


1. The Rubber-band Theory requires a 'countless' number of parallel worlds, not an 'infinite' one. You initially claimed it needed an infinite number of parallel universes, but you changed your tune only after I brought the source text. Of course, you never presented any text yourself.
Regarding this, I've also got this quote from the PSP game.

時間は一本道だ。

過去も現在も未来もつながっている。パラレルワールドとは、多くの世界があるのではない。時間というゴムヒモを、パチンコ台のように無数の釘を打った合の、「どこの釘」に引っかけていくか、という事でしかない

Time is a one-way street. The past, present, and future are connected. Parallel worlds do not mean that there are many worlds; rather, it is the rubber band of time that can be caught on countless nails, like on a pinball machine. It is all about which nail to catch on.



Toaru Majutsu no Index (PSP game)
Here it's very clear that while there are countless possible paths and theoretical parallel worlds, there's a single rubber band of time that will catch to one of the multiple options of nails.

And, for the purposes of tiering, the parallel worlds have to exist and characters need to be able to interact with them.

Now, what do you think takes precedence? Virtual-On or the PSP game? This could change a lot.

Indeed, I am pretty sure that some of the quotes from Virtual On also refer to the parallel worlds as paths rather than solidified existences, tho I don’t know much about Virtual On stuff, so could you send the quotes that explain this aspect? Are all the possibilities real concurrent existences in there?


It suddenly occurred to me—what do you think of the Aleisters with 1,083,028,670 possibilities?
Magic bullshit that the author never really expanded upon.
 
Universe there is more than likely referring to physical space and the observable universe.

World is the above + Phases.

It's also very interesting that the anti-climax one has Phases as the highest, higher than even dimensions, but we know that cutting dimensions allows you to reach the most fundamental of Phases the kill its Guardian Angel.

I.e trying to argue there is some linear growth of powerscaling tiers just doesn't fit what Kamachi is telling us here.

I agree with your first point. Basically, the "Universe" refers to the material universe governed by physical and mathematical laws.

However, I believe your second point is slightly mistaken. Before considering that Curtana cuts all dimensions, we need to remember the source of its power. It draws from the power of 'Heaven' (Angel Force), which belongs to the highest tier even among the Major Phases in the Index worldview. Within the UK, it creates an extreme spiritual status capable of partially drawing out the power of Archangel Michael (The One Like God).

Since the physical world itself is introduced as merely one single Phase, "Dimensions"—which are objects included as sub-category laws within that physical world—cannot structurally be superior to Phases. Dimensions do not exist outside of physical and mathematical laws, right? In fact, the description of Curtana cutting dimensions perfectly matches the description of Euclidean geometry.

Regarding the "Rubber Band Theory" of parallel worlds, let's look at the text:

「時間は一本道だ。 過去も現在も未来もつながっている。パラレルワールドとは、多くの世界があるのではない。時間というゴムヒモを、パチンコ台のように無数の釘を打った合の、「どこの釘」に引っかけていくか、という事でしかない」

As you pointed out, the statements have indeed fluctuated. However, looking at the accuracy and timeline: the PSP game was released in 2011, while the Virtual-On collaboration was in 2018. Kamachi started to concretely define Phases, Quantum Theory, and the structure of the World only after the mid-New Testament series.

In other words, in NT 13, Virtual-On, and the Queen & Ace, the stance is "Parallel worlds are not infinite, but they do exist." This contrasts with the older PSP game's stance of "They do not exist."

As I mentioned above, I interpreted the phrase "Time is a one-way street (時間は一本道だ)" to mean there is only one "Canonical Timeline"—much like the 'Sacred Timeline' in Marvel. Usually, this cannot be interfered with.

But we know of exceptions within the story:

Magic Gods: Who treat concepts like space and time as lower-tier elements they can manipulate.
Angels: Who exist outside the timeline.
Aleister: Who actually manifested his own possibilities.

Therefore, my conclusion to your question is:
Parallel worlds do exist, and certain transcendent beings can indeed interact with them.
 
However, I believe your second point is slightly mistaken. Before considering that Curtana cuts all dimensions, we need to remember the source of its power. It draws from the power of 'Heaven' (Angel Force), which belongs to the highest tier even among the Major Phases in the Index worldview. Within the UK, it creates an extreme spiritual status capable of partially drawing out the power of Archangel Michael (The One Like God).
First, I don't like the idea that there are "Major Phases".

Pure World is the foundation, New World and Hidden World are the weird ones, Human World is the baseline one, all the others are simply religious Phases and I dislike the idea of there being "major" and "minor" ones given this isn't really established in canon.

Since the physical world itself is introduced as merely one single Phase, "Dimensions"—which are objects included as sub-category laws within that physical world—cannot structurally be superior to Phases. Dimensions do not exist outside of physical and mathematical laws, right? In fact, the description of Curtana cutting dimensions perfectly matches the description of Euclidean geometry.
No, this is just wrong.

Dimensions are never regarded as exclusive to the Human World Phase, indeed, if they were then Curtana wouldn't be able to cut the Pure World by using them, that just wouldn't work.

No one is claiming that the dimensions are superior tho, for a pretty simple reason: those who control phases are given the power to alter the rules of reality, which includes messing with spacetime (i.e dimensions), but Phases still exist inside of this framework of dimensions.

As you pointed out, the statements have indeed fluctuated. However, looking at the accuracy and timeline: the PSP game was released in 2011, while the Virtual-On collaboration was in 2018. Kamachi started to concretely define Phases, Quantum Theory, and the structure of the World only after the mid-New Testament series.
Bro, we don't use Virtual-On stuff. As I said in the other post, Ace vs Queen can be used as soon as Salina is introduced to the main series.

And truth be told, Kamachi didn't start shit, these topics have barely been addressed after their introduction.

Phases barely received new info after NT9, the Rubber Band was barely, if ever, brought up again after the Kamisato saga concluded.

Also, for God's sake, if we had more than one universe don't you that at this point we'd have gotten at least one quote saying it? Like, you really think that something that is never explicitly brought up in canon and is only ever used when parody, crossover stuff needs a reason to is the factual undeniable truth of how the series cosmology work?

Bro, 99% of the plot of MGs becomes stupid the moment you add a second universe.

Othinus entire plot, battle with Touma and final decision revolves around one simple fact: there's only one of each Phase at a time, and she had to choose between hers and Touma's.

Honestly, it just doesn't feel like we are reading the same series whenever I get into this debate with someone.

As I mentioned above, I interpreted the phrase "Time is a one-way street (時間は一本道だ)" to mean there is only one "Canonical Timeline"—much like the 'Sacred Timeline' in Marvel. Usually, this cannot be interfered with.
Difference is that in the MCU we know that there are multiple universes and the Sacred Timeline included more than one.

Here you're using non canon stuff (while simultaneously arguing that the manga aren't canon, which is crazy to me) to try to prove the existence of multiple universes.

What you're saying here could be, but not until we get actual evidence that there are multiple ones, time and the universe are constantly regarded as a single path, a singular existence, throughout the entirety of the series.

Yeah bro, these can be adjusted to work in a multiverse, but they don't work in its favor when a multiverse is dubious to exist to begin with.


Magic Gods: Who treat concepts like space and time as lower-tier elements they can manipulate.
The guys who explicitly couldn't create two universes, which is a core point for Othinus.


Angels: Who exist outside the timeline.
They don't exist outside of the timeline, they exist outside of fate, that's different.


Aleister: Who actually manifested his own possibilities.
Through bullshit magic, it's never ever implied he summoned them from other universes or whatever. As I said before, this is magic bullshitery that was never expanded upon.

Therefore, my conclusion to your question is:
Parallel worlds do exist, and certain transcendent beings can indeed interact with them.
None of your examples prove this, the main one says the exact opposite, no quote whatsoever in the entire canon says there are multiple universes.
 
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If those are really compactified, how we treat the cross-section between dimensions?
To be decided.

ITEM6 may be the best bet at getting more info about this in the near future, if it talks about Aihana and the timeline more in depth.
 
I was exaggerating, but what's manifesting here? Is it a wall of energy?
There was no light, sound, color, or shape. But the brown girl sensed something – an
unseen, unknowable field of oppressive density – appear between the two of them.

Anna Kingsford did not use flashy special attacks.

She took the common magic and ceremonies that even the beginners were sick and tired
of and she honed them past the limit.

No more than that. But no one else could achieve this, so it allowed her to overwhelm all
others.

It even let her gather up and harness the immorality, tragedy, and misfortune found all
throughout this incomplete world.

“What did you do?”

If I refined power at my full 💪, it would destroy the ⚙ parts. So I emit all the
excess energy outside my body, which makes it easier for ‘nonexistent things’ to manifest.
Think of it like how ⬆-ing the humidity with a humidifier makes it easier for frost to form
on the glass.”

is this TK against supernatural entities? Some vague application of holy manip?
“Adonai Melekh Ne’eman.”

Anna Kingsford crossed herself.

That was all.

Some self-styled specialists might scoff and say that wasn’t even a spell. In Christian regions, people even prayed before meals, so crossing oneself was a mystical act known even to elementary school children.

But a true expert did not neglect the fundamentals.

By mastering them to the extreme, they could elevate every spell they knew to deadly levels.

The amorphous silhouette of reddish white and sludgy black was blown straight back up just before contacting her. Afterwards, it slithered away as if to avoid Kingsford. Almost like a slug that had finally realized it had leapt at a pile of purifying salt.

Does anyone know what realm Kingsford was residing in before Aleister reanimated her? Was she in a net she had prepared similar to the one for Aleister?
 
Thank you for this.

Side note, are we allowed to dicuss the series or like fanfics in this thread as well or only things pertaining to the pages?
There's no rule against discussing fan fiction here, but it may turn the thread into a mess given the focus here is discussing canon.

I was exaggerating, but what's manifesting here? Is it a wall of energy?
Yeah, seems to be a result of her mana getting really dense around her body.

is this TK against supernatural entities? Some vague application of holy manip?
Seems to be a mix of holy manipulation and generic TK, hard to say if it's exclusively an anti-supernatural spell and wouldn't affect other targets.

From what I saw, the fiery snow also didn't reach Kingsford, so it definitely can affect more than supernatural beings, said snow is still a magical hellish force tho.

Meh
 
To be decided.

ITEM6 may be the best bet at getting more info about this in the near future, if it talks about Aihana and the timeline more in depth.
Yeah, I heard that Aihana's esper power involves timeline or that they are some timeline observer.
 
Its been a longtime since I dropped this series. How high does cosmology scale this time? Is it still 11D?
 
First, I don't like the idea that there are "Major Phases".

Pure World is the foundation, New World and Hidden World are the weird ones, Human World is the baseline one, all the others are simply religious Phases and I dislike the idea of there being "major" and "minor" ones given this isn't really established in canon.

You said you didn't like categorizing Phases into Major and Minor, but Phases are clearly comprised of numerous religions and mythologies, and the evident difference in their scale is undeniable. Even within the series, haven't we seen distinctions like the "Four Great Religions" or clear hierarchies being established?

No, this is just wrong.

Dimensions are never regarded as exclusive to the Human World Phase, indeed, if they were then Curtana wouldn't be able to cut the Pure World by using them, that just wouldn't work.

No one is claiming that the dimensions are superior tho, for a pretty simple reason: those who control phases are given the power to alter the rules of reality, which includes messing with spacetime (i.e dimensions), but Phases still exist inside of this framework of dimensions.

And what on earth is the connection between Curtana cutting the Pure World and dimensions not belonging to the physical world? You are deeply mistaken about something: Pure World = Physical World. They are not two different things.

You asked me in which series another universe appeared, right? I’ll ask you the same thing. In which series and when did a dimension other than the Euclidean geometric dimension ever appear? Judging by the description of Curtana and everything else, no dimension other than that one has ever been shown.

Could you please provide even a single line of text or evidence stating that Phases exist inside dimensions?

Bro, we don't use Virtual-On stuff. As I said in the other post, Ace vs Queen can be used as soon as Salina is introduced to the main series.

And truth be told, Kamachi didn't start shit, these topics have barely been addressed after their introduction.

Phases barely received new info after NT9, the Rubber Band was barely, if ever, brought up again after the Kamisato saga concluded.

Also, for God's sake, if we had more than one universe don't you that at this point we'd have gotten at least one quote saying it? Like, you really think that something that is never explicitly brought up in canon and is only ever used when parody, crossover stuff needs a reason to is the factual undeniable truth of how the series cosmology work?

Bro, 99% of the plot of MGs becomes stupid the moment you add a second universe.

Othinus entire plot, battle with Touma and final decision revolves around one simple fact: there's only one of each Phase at a time, and she had to choose between hers and Touma's.

Honestly, it just doesn't feel like we are reading the same series whenever I get into this debate with someone.

The most baffling part is why you refuse to use the Virtual-On related material. I truly cannot understand your attitude: you care about a manga where the author just threw out the basic framework and left the detailed depiction to outsiders, yet you ignore the author's direct involvement in this.

You guys are disregarding the part explaining the theory within Index—not just the additional settings of Virtual-On—simply because you claim it serves as the definitive proof of existence, even though these are the author's own words.

Am I wrong? If the author stated that "everything fits perfectly except for one specific element," that basically means the setting itself can be maintained identically in the main story as well.

Bro, 99% of the plot of MGs becomes stupid the moment you add a second universe.

Othinus entire plot, battle with Touma and final decision revolves around one simple fact: there's only one of each Phase at a time, and she had to choose between hers and Touma's.

Honestly, it just doesn't feel like we are reading the same series whenever I get into this debate with someone.

And you completely misunderstand the Magic God (MG) plot.

When did only one Phase exist at a time?

Are you saying this solely based on that single line denying Othinus's parallel world theory?
No one said the manga is non-canon. And in the series, it has never once been stated that there is only one universe. If such a statement exists, please, I beg you, bring it to me.

The guys who explicitly couldn't create two universes, which is a core point for Othinus.

It was never stated that Othinus cannot create two universes.
Do not confuse "World" with "Universe."In the descriptions of the Magic Gods, "World" and "Universe" are explicitly treated as distinct concepts, and the descriptions depict an expansion from Earth to Universe, and then to World.

They don't exist outside of the timeline, they exist outside of fate, that's different.

In the case of Angels, it wasn't described as destiny either.Although the word "human" was attached as a prefix, it is explicitly stated that they are removed from time.

Through bullshit magic, it's never ever implied he summoned them from other universes or whatever. As I said before, this is magic bullshitery that was never expanded upon.

Aleister's case is the same.

"Originally, I was sealing all possibilities within a single body. But it turned out that even if there were multiple 'me's in the world, they would only conflict and I couldn't expect a cooperative stance. From then on, I had no choice but to bind all of 'me' together and fix them to a single coordinate due to my own doing."

It explicitly states that he "fixed them to a single coordinate." Then, logical reasoning dictates that originally, they were all scattered across different coordinates, right?

Also, the dialogue uses the expression of "choices that can be selected." This mirrors the description of the Pachinko analogy mentioned in NT Volume 13, where the branching point divides depending on where you place your bet.
 
You said you didn't like categorizing Phases into Major and Minor, but Phases are clearly comprised of numerous religions and mythologies, and the evident difference in their scale is undeniable. Even within the series, haven't we seen distinctions like the "Four Great Religions" or clear hierarchies being established?
It's not "undeniable" because we barely have any info on their scaling beyond their name and speculation, they're all regarded as Phases and there's never mention of any of them being smaller or bigger than the others.

What are the 4 Great Religions? I don't recall when that term was used.

And what on earth is the connection between Curtana cutting the Pure World and dimensions not belonging to the physical world? You are deeply mistaken about something: Pure World = Physical World. They are not two different things.
What?

“By passing all that power through this foundational layer, that ‘bottom’ layer can be
broken and removed. From there, all other phases will be destroyed along with this one.
Without the core, the other forces cannot maintain their revolutions.”
“It is only a possibility, but this soul was protected by Holy Guardian Angel Aiwass and
wandered within a different phase for more than a century. This is not a case of the sin
being removed. You could say that this soul belongs to somewhere other than this surface
world. Great Demon Coronzon escaped from the card table, so there is no being who can
form a pair with her. Except for this opposing factor here.”
Yes, all dimensions.
Assuming it could hit, that extraordinary power could penetrate the barrier between
worlds and kill a being lurking in a different phase…for example, Holy Guardian Angel
Aiwass who stayed in the layer of physical laws at the very bottom
.
These are just a few from NT22 and NT22R, the 3 make it explicitly clear that the Pure World and the Human Phase are distinct.

Back on topic: idk if you understood what I said, so I will repeat: dimensions exist across all Phases due to Curtana's statement, which I just gave. Phases don't transcend the dimensions nor do they exist outside them, so the climax/anti-climax stuff you were talking about isn't a linear powerscaling growth that means world = multiverse.

Could you please provide even a single line of text or evidence stating that Phases exist inside dimensions?
Curtana wouldn't be able to "kill a being lurking in a different Phase" if Phases existed outside dimensions, simple as that.


The most baffling part is why you refuse to use the Virtual-On related material. I truly cannot understand your attitude: you care about a manga where the author just threw out the basic framework and left the detailed depiction to outsiders, yet you ignore the author's direct involvement in this.

You guys are disregarding the part explaining the theory within Index—not just the additional settings of Virtual-On—simply because you claim it serves as the definitive proof of existence, even though these are the author's own words.

Am I wrong? If the author stated that "everything fits perfectly except for one specific element," that basically means the setting itself can be maintained identically in the main story as well.
Do I really need to repeat?

The Virtual On Crossover is non-canon and the cosmology elements there simply have never been brought up in canon AND HAVE CONTRADICTED IT.

That rejection takes an incredibly simple form. The power of the Tangram eternally exiles you to one of the infinitely expanding parallel worlds and you trade places with the same person in a different dimension.
The one fact we have in the series is that there aren't infinitely expanding parallel universes. There. Aren't.

The Virtual On cosmology isn't the same as the one we have in the series.

And in the absurd case it somehow was the same, it would more sense that the MGs and Alice simply didn't have control beyond the one universe/timeline because Othinus can't create parallel worlds no matter how you twist the words, it's a literal major plot point that her world and Touma's couldn't coexist.


And you completely misunderstand the Magic God (MG) plot.

When did only one Phase exist at a time?
Othinus had conceded the world to him.
She had conceded everything to him.
She had wanted to return to her original home even if it meant making an enemy of this
entire world and using the members of her own group of Gremlin. But she had cast aside
the sole method of returning there in order to save Kamijou who had been wandering
through another world just like her
Only one of each Phase can exist at a time, otherwise she could have her own world and Touma's at the same time.
Are you saying this solely based on that single line denying Othinus's parallel world theory?
No one said the manga is non-canon. And in the series, it has never once been stated that there is only one universe. If such a statement exists, please, I beg you, bring it to me.
That's a fallacy, burden is on you to prove that there is more than one universe.

My argument isn't even that "there is only 1 universe", my argument is that the MGs can't control more than 1, it doesn't matter if there are more and they're outside of the scope of what the MGs can control.


It was never stated that Othinus cannot create two universes.
Do not confuse "World" with "Universe."In the descriptions of the Magic Gods, "World" and "Universe" are explicitly treated as distinct concepts, and the descriptions depict an expansion from Earth to Universe, and then to World.
This is a cop out, world is completely dependent on context in the series and when it's talking about Othinus' and Touma's world it's definitely only talking about the Human Phase as it even references Touma wandering the world and it turning against her, there's no reason whatsoever that either of them would be concerned on how some random Phase from a religion they don't care was different.

In the case of Angels, it wasn't described as destiny either.Although the word "human" was attached as a prefix, it is explicitly stated that they are removed from time.
He felt like he’d heard that from Tsuchimikado before.
He said that God would come down to Earth at the end of the world, then decide on a
case-by-case basis who would go to heaven and who would go to hell. The results were
actually set in stone from the beginning
, so if an angel killed people imprudently, then
those results would go wrong or something.
Leaving religious notions behind, the logic was a sort of time paradox. If it killed
someone who was never originally supposed to be killed
, their children would never be
born. And then their grandchildren and their great-grandchildren—none of them would
be born. Just like how someone who uses a time machine is a transcender who can bend
history to his will, this angel, who was out of position with the history of mankind, had
the power to change mankind’s future and its ultimate end.
A transcender.
Destiny/fate aren't directly referred but this shouldn't be hard to understand: Gabriel exists outside of the predetermined path that God set for humans, that's fate, that's what "results set in stone" means and this is what Gabriel isn't bound to.

And to be clear, the comparison with a time traveler doesn't mean that they're both doing it using time shenanigans, Kamachi equated the two because the end result is the same: be able to change the line of events.


It explicitly states that he "fixed them to a single coordinate." Then, logical reasoning dictates that originally, they were all scattered across different coordinates, right?
The literal first line says that even originally they were contained inside a single body, not scattered:

"Originally, I was sealing all possibilities within a single body."

What are you talking about then? When, if ever, were they scattered?


Also, the dialogue uses the expression of "choices that can be selected." This mirrors the description of the Pachinko analogy mentioned in NT Volume 13, where the branching point divides depending on where you place your bet
Yes? They can be selected but only the one you actually choose ever comes to exist, the others don't exist in parallel.

Aleister has the power to magically spawn secondary possibilities of himself, burden is on you to prove he somehow gathered them from different universes that exist parallel to the main one.
 
What are the 4 Great Religions? I don't recall when that term was used.
Dáinsleif was said to end the world, but it was still a magic sword made to be wielded by human hands. Even if it could create an embodiment of symbols of evil or sin, it could not perfectly and purely summon one of the top-ranked gods of one of the world’s four largest religions. There were said to be ten different avatars, but summoning a chaotic and indistinguishable amalgam for a few seconds had been the limit of that sword.

NT10 Chapter 14: V.S. “The Blacksmith Who Releases the Magic Sword”. // Round_05.
So basically Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism.

Anyways, what is this a convo about, canonicity/cosmology?
 
Anyways, what is this a convo about, canonicity/cosmology?
Cosmology yes, I'd say the canoniticy debate is mostly a tangent.

To sum up: Mental Out manga confirmed the eleven dimensions are actually compact string theory dimensions, which aren't valid VSBW scaling.

We are discussing what to do after this and what possible new tiers we have.

Its been a longtime since I dropped this series. How high does cosmology scale this time? Is it still 11D?
Not for long now, 11D won't last much longer.
 
half-assed repository for rosicrucian allegories kamachi hasn't concluded
“Alchemy, particularly that of late Zurich, is an imitator of a subject called Hermeticism.
In general, though, people know it as more like...something to turn lead into gold or to
synthesize an elixir of immortality.”
to link Hermetic alchemy to Theosophy and Rosicrucianism:
At first glance, the Rosicrucian and the Golden seemed like wholly different types of magic
cabal, but they were linked deep down. Or rather, the Golden cabal’s initial 0=0
ceremonies drew strongly on Egyptian mythology and the members would then go on to
learn tarot and tattva. Once a member reached the 5=6 level, the Rosicrucian name began
to appear unhidden in the ceremonies. How did it end up like that? All three of the
founding members, including Westcott and Mathers, were magicians with a Rosicrucian
foundation.

[...]

The same was true of Kingsford who was Mathers and Westcott’s teacher and was said to
have laid the groundwork for the Golden cabal’s creation. She had had her own cabal, but
she originally belonged to the Theosophical Society, a gathering of Kabbalah experts,
psychics, and Rosicrucians. Thus, their magic techniques and ideology had their roots in
the rosy cross – in Christian Rosencreutz.
Zurich-style alchemy follows Jung's philosophy via his psychological studies in Zurich, Switzerland
In fact, the goal of Ars Magna wasn’t to create gold or make an immortal elixir. It was
really only something like humans being an incomplete version of God, so if a human
was to train and become “complete”, then he could become a god. Obviously that all
sounds like a mess of cultic hubbub, but as you can see the term “God” in there, you can
tell that Christian culture got mixed into alchemy.

In the story itself, the spell Aureolus used that made everything in his head become
reality was closer to the Zurich style of alchemy. This mixed the original alchemy with
the psychology of Carl Jung; “doing alchemy in your head” is the gist of it.
Spiritual/mental alchemy of the aforementioned Ars Magna (Great Work) is shared with gnosticism and Level 6
“That is the term for one who is not a god yet reaches the will of the heavens. Our goal is
something beyond Level 5. We humans do not understand the truth of this world.
However, that makes things simple. If someone who has a status above that of a human
appeared, that person would be able to understand God’s response.”

[...]

They claimed that humans were gods in the process of being purified, so they could gain
the bodies of gods and freely use the techniques of God by training themselves. They
were the first mavericks of the Christian Church and they were even considered
dangerous by the Apostle John.

It was known as Gnosticism.

“Ars Magna,” Himegami muttered while touching the large cross at her chest.

The man who had once used alchemy to reach Ars Magna had likely belonged to that
ideology. After all, Ars Magna of alchemy was not the technique of turning lead to gold.

It was the technique of sublimating a human soul that had been dulled like lead into an
angel’s soul that was like gold.

Gnosticism was popular among those who strayed from the proper path in the occult
because it involved usurping the power of God. Regardless of the differences in how they
thought, humans all wanted to reach the same place.
IB is a panacea for what Hermeticists consider to be the greatest disease, ignorance. Very idyllic, wonder if Kamachi will portray it or have touma oppose its necessity
The legendary Rosicrucian cabal had not been pursuing anything as trivial as eternal life.
“That is one of the few goals held by the old-style Rosicrucian magic cabal. It generally
refers to an all-purpose medicine. While I thought about it, I started thinking that might
be the role of your right hand.”

“My hand is...a medicine?”

[...]

“The macro universe and the micro human body are mutually linked. That is a common
understanding between the Golden and the Rosen. ...So to use a broader interpretation,
creating a medicine that works on humans would also be able to heal the world.
“The microcosm and macrocosm are always linked. So anything that can be done in an individual human body can also be done in the world as a whole. For example, the magicians who serve the rose believe they can create a medicine to heal the world’s sickness in the same way ordinary medicines can heal human sickness.”
“That wonder drug can also describe the Rosicrucian experts. If it is necessary to heal the
world, they will shatter their glass coffin and travel the outside world, but once their goal
is complete, they will return to wherever they came from. I thought what came from your
right arm might be similar.”
CRC valued IB as dispelling normal illusions that Rosicrucianism wants to cure, not just supernatural ones.
“If this old man only had that…if my hand only possessed that one supernatural power…”

“This old man wouldn’t have had to wander for 400 years! I could have destroyed the illusion of the rose and the cross back theeeeeeeeeeeeeeen!!!”
Rosicrucians are a panacea with the goal of providing education as a medicine itself
The cabal’s goal was
to heal the “illnesses” of the people and of the world and they would not hesitate to work
without compensation to accomplish that.

Thus, they knew a lot about the traditional methods of gathering and mixing medicines.
Illnesses of the people are self-explanatory, but what are illnesses of the world? The most
common theory is that the illnesses plaguing the world can be eradicated by guiding
human society with proper knowledge and correcting the mistaken beliefs that lead to
war, pollution, and overuse of resources. In other words, the cabal’s magicians themselves
function as the medicine.
But if you will permit some speculation, his desire to provide dreams to the people has
some overlap with the Rosicrucian plan to eliminate the world’s diseases by optimizing
imperfect human society with intellectuals used as a medicine that spreads education, so
it may be worth seeing if he has reached an understanding with that cabal.
The goal of the Rosicrucian magic cabal was to use mystical magical knowledge to
eliminate the world’s sickness and restore it to a healthy state, just like a person took
medicine to heal their illness.
The Rosicrucians claimed a few different goals, but one of them was to tear down the old
monarchies and create a nation ruled by philosophers.
He had healed individual people and ultimately attempted to fight the sickness infecting
the entire world, from its philosophies to its nations.
That silver young man had many legends told of him, but he was an alchemist at heart.
He used alchemy as a starting point for all of his miracles, from the artificial life within
the crystal to the red elixir.
CRC calls touma the panacea
“I wondered what trump card you would rely on in the end, but all you did was break the
glass container? That one normally sleeps within his coffin, but he naturally awakens
when he locates the disease plaguing this world and returns to his coffin once he is no
longer needed. Producing the world-healing elixir is all well and good, but how long can
you last like this? Given the rate of blood loss, I would guess 10 minutes at the mo-”
Rosicrucianism entails transforming yourself into a more enlightened being through the unification of opposites (beheaded king/queen in the chemical wedding) that Sprengel wished to see Touma perform with KnT in his chrysalis.
“That does more than just let the bug grow from larva to adult. Inside the hard pupa, the
larva destroys its own muscles and organs and uses that to create its adult form. You could
say they are remaking their old self into a new self. Aiwass, surely you can tell what this is
a metaphor for.”

“The acquisition of a new self. The goal of joining a magic cabal is to overcome the
judgment of death and obtain the light of God.

“You judge your old self and gain a new self.”

“Let’s watch, Aiwass. The One who Purifies God and Slays Demons has appeared. What
will he destroy and what will he create within his chrysalis? I hope it will more than
surpass my expectations.”
“Surely you don’t think there’s nothing more to that than a colorful shell for you to control,
Kamijou Touma.”

People could not necessarily see every part of themselves. Even in the field of magic,
people were warned that they had to follow certain steps to achieve a proper
understanding or else they would lose control and do things they never imagined when
they attempted to follow the Sephiroth to purify their soul.
“Black, white, yellow, and red. It is a cycle of the four stages: death, bonding, fermentation,
and rebirth.”
First of all, the sand magic being used on LA was Citrinitas. It was the third stage of the
four said to create the red stone in the Rose tradition.
And when the crawling woman crumbled into a pile of sand, a round object appeared. It
was about the size of a clenched fist, it was transparent, and it jiggled like jelly. Something
like a partially-formed baby bird was curled up within. It was covered by black feathers
and soaked with red blood.
But it did not look like a living thing.
It lacked the glow of life or the grotesqueness of death, so it was not even a dead thing
preserved in formaldehyde. No matter how real it looked, it may have been like a wax food
sample.
“The beheaded king and queen are dissolved, two types of bonds are used to form the egg,
and the egg is buried in the sand to ferment.”
Kamijou did not understand a word of what Othinus was talking about.
“Citrinitas is a term found in one of the three sacred Rosicrucian texts. Through
conversions to black, white, yellow, and red, an expert void of worldly desire can acquire
the supreme stone. Citrinitas is the yellowing stage and it refers to the act of burying it in
sand so it can ‘ferment’.” Othinus sighed. “Once something has died and decomposed, it
undergoes a beneficial transformation underground, giving it new value.
“Citrinitas. Fermentation. Ruler of the 3rd Stage.” Othinus snorted and crossed her legs
atop Kamijou’s shoulder. “Or to put it another way, you were a magician who could never
reach the 4th Stage and complete the process. The black, white, yellow, and red are the
four stages needed to achieve ultimate wisdom, but did you know that the Rose’s
teachings say most any magic user can complete the 3rd Stage, but they fail to fully control
the bird born in the fourth and final stage? Their worldly desires distract them, so they
lose sight of the item’s essence on that very last step.”

The ouroboros image in nt10 signifies the alchemical process for the philosopher's stone starting from the prima materia which could be visualized by ot22's dragon eating a lesser manifestation of the invisible dragon
5Vd9fXg.png

Kamijou Touma used his own power to crush that invisible something.
A different power appeared above that great power that had gathered around Kamijou’s
shoulder. That other power seemed to open up a large mouth and swallow up the first
power.
The circular result was a lot like a snake swallowing its own tail.
if you know of any more pls let me know
 
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Cosmology yes, I'd say the canoniticy debate is mostly a tangent.

To sum up: Mental Out manga confirmed the eleven dimensions are actually compact string theory dimensions, which aren't valid VSBW scaling.

We are discussing what to do after this and what possible new tiers we have.
Yea, that Mental Out chapter is pretty damning on the dimensional front. Without the Teleport dimensions being valid size, I think Curtana only gets to 'at least 5D' via direct statements alone. Since both are incompatible, the only way to reconcile is:
a) Multiple dimensional theories are simultaneously true somehow. (We have Superstring Theory (Teleporters) and Curtana's dimensions, which afaik don't follow any real world model in the series)
b) There are at least two sets of dimensions in the verse.
 

To retrieve Lilith from another Phase and provide her with a vessel of flesh... Who possesses both the skill to surely grasp that thread-like chance and the strong will to protect her from the world's malice to the very end?
I read Lilith's structure before she was born and evacuated her to another Phase. Lilith dies immediately after birth.
Speaking only of possibilities... this soul was protected by the Holy Guardian Angel Aiwass and has wandered inside other Phases for actually over 100 years.
It pours massive power into the layer that became the foundation of the whole world to forcibly break it. All Phases are overlapped with each other. But even the gods of mythology cannot sustain their existence with that alone. Neither Heaven nor Hell can exist independently. If the lowest, foundational part is destroyed, the 'floor' falls out.

The Pure World = The Layer of Physical Science = The Fundamental Foundation = The Material World.
You keep strangely using the term 'Phase of the Human World' all by yourself, but neither I nor Kamachi have ever used such a strange expression. What on earth do you mean by the 'Phase of the Human World'? Are you referring to the Material World as the 'Phase of the Human World'?

I see. Coronzon is not in the 'Qliphoth' but a wanderer inside the 'Sephiroth,' a demon and at the same time a gatekeeper who does not fall from the tree. That was it; she is squeezing out power not by the laws of Olam Asiyah (Material World) but by Olam Beriah (World of Creation)! Hmm, interesting!! With this, I might receive something more than just a participation award or an effort award!!
Wielding magic shakes this world little by little, and the sparks caused by the collision of invisible, overlapping Phases sometimes rage enough to take human lives. The culprit of the tragedy that drove Aleister Crowley onto the path of Shura. Bringing that down to this low-dimensional Material World and giving it form with my power is exactly what this is.
But that is clearly an existence outside the Material World. It is still translucent now, but soon it will become completely fixed to this world, to this Phase
Whether it's Tartarus, Niflheim, the Eight Great Hells, or Yomi, 'this world and the next' are nothing more than 'Phases' overlapped on top of the Physical World. It's just that once you step in, you can never return to the standard Physical World, that's all.

The expression that they are overlapped on the lowest layer appears identically for both the Physical World and the Material World. Therefore, the Physical World = the Material World = the Pure Science Layer. All three are the same thing, just expressed differently by Kamachi.

urtana wouldn't be able to "kill a being lurking in a different Phase" if Phases existed outside dimensions, simple as that.

That sword is the ultimate spiritual armament that completely rules the land of the UK—composed of 3 factions and 4 regions—and within the country, it can partially draw out the power of the Archangel 'Michael (The One Like God).'
That is nothing more than your conjecture. Whether Phases exist inside or outside of dimensions, and whether Curtana can kill an existence of a Phase in another dimension, are separate issues.
Curtana's power is fundamentally the power of Michael, belonging to the Phase of Heaven.
If it is correct that a Phase is a higher-order concept than a Dimension, then there is no logical fallacy in using that higher power to sever a lower Dimension.

The Virtual On Crossover is non-canon and the cosmology elements there simply have never been brought up in canon AND HAVE CONTRADICTED IT.
The description of the rubber string in the setting actually appeared in the main series, and I'm saying this because it sounds like you're refusing to admit even that fact.

You make it sound as if the Rubber String Theory was modified just to integrate the existence of Tangram or Virtual-On. However, the people saying those things are just ordinary scientists living in Academy City.
They are inhabitants unique to the Index universe, and what they are discussing is merely the 'Rubber String Parallel World Theory'—one of the parallel world theories within their own world (the Index universe). At the same time, they are also mentioning the Many-Worlds Interpretation.
You keep conflating the Rubber String Parallel World Theory with the Many-Worlds Interpretation (where infinite multiverses actually exist), but I’m telling you, they are distinct concepts.

This is a cop out, world is completely dependent on context in the series and when it's talking about Othinus' and Touma's world it's definitely only talking about the Human Phase as it even references Touma wandering the world and it turning against her, there's no reason whatsoever that either of them would be concerned on how some random Phase from a religion they don't care was different.

That is absolute nonsense. Where on earth was it stated that only one Phase can exist at a time?

"That is just a meaningless story to tell someone who knows the results from the start—ah, excuse me, to someone who just sees. Anyway, once the true nature was revealed, Coronzon's side couldn't stop either. The Ceremony of Mo'aher. It was an attempt to destroy the Physical World, the very bottom of the bottom that serves as the foundation for all mythologies, and flush all Phases down a giant drain."

The structure consists of the Physical World—the layer of pure physical science—serving as the base, with countless religious and mythological Phases piled up layer by layer on top of it.

"Originally, this world didn't spring from nothing. Christianity, Buddhism, Celtic, Indian, Shinto, Inca, Aztec, Greek, Roman... and Norse. Countless religions have placed countless 'Phases' over the world, layer after layer, like thin veils or filters. Heaven, Hell, the Underworld, the Pure Land, Yomi, the Subterranean World, Mount Olympus, the Fairy Island, Nirai Kanai, Asgard, and many others. In any case, the world you have seen until now is a scene viewed through multicolored sheets of cellophane."

And Magic Gods are existences capable of destroying all those Phases, and they have actually done so.

"Call me a God. And what I did was simple. I frequently produced new filters to make the world look different and applied them to the world. That's why the world looks like it has changed. Because it takes less effort than destroying everything one by one and recreating them one by one."

It is true that the hundreds of billions of worlds like Alpha, Beta, and Omega were simply Othinus overlaying Phases to make them look new, just as you said.

"Destroying the world is simple. You just have to kill me or destroy the 'Lance' that controls the power. Either act is impossible for a human body, but it is worth the challenge. Either way, you will fail, and it will be impossible to take everything from me. However, you might be able to create an impact just enough to cause a slight noise. With that, this fake world with its crude 'Phase' inserted will be blown to smithereens. You might be able to return just one of those 'ugly and twisted worlds' you believe in to nothingness."

Kamachi clearly uses the plural form here. He says "one of the worlds."

In other words. Therefore. The moment that 'Lance' was thrown from Othinus's hand. The world was shattered to pieces.

Time returns. Kamijo once again recognized the space expanding. As if matching the 'Lance' launched with tremendous force, space itself seemed to split open, and the 'Happy World' was shattered to pieces. That momentum, like a raging wave, the fragments of the world rushing in like a tsunami, created a shape like one giant lance. Chewing up and destroying the walls of countless Phases, it transformed into a vortex of lethal weapons like sharp glass shards and shot forward as if to swallow the pitiful targets all at once. Everything was overturned. A pitch-black labyrinth where the buds of possibility were exterminated revealed itself.

Also, in the case of Gungnir as well, it is described in the plural form as "countless Phases."

Because it takes less effort than destroying everything one by one and recreating them one by one.
This is just a repetition of what was said before. Destroying everything was bothersome, but this time, since the goal was simply killing without the need to break Kamijou's heart, she just destroyed absolutely everything with maximum power.

".....Othinus, and Kamijou Touma, were mistaken about just one thing. They thought that world of darkness was 'the end of this world.' They thought the place where everything was destroyed and nothing remained was that pitch-black despair. However, in reality, it was different. One more layer... existencing uniformly as if a thin film was stretched over it, yet without a single flaw... a 'Phase' that no one could know and no one could destroy existed. A black world. A place even Magic God Othinus couldn't break."

Actually, in New Testament Volume 10 mentioned later, it states that Othinus's black labyrinth, where all buds of possibility were exterminated, is a place where everything was destroyed except for Kamijo and Othinus. The only exception aside from those two was the Hidden World.

Therefore, Othinus's black labyrinth is the state where all religions, mythologies, and layers of the material world that existed in the world at that time were all destroyed.

Just looking at this, your statement that only a single Phase can exist has already been debunked long ago, hasn't it?

"Context" and "subtext" are merely secondary interpretations made by readers based on the text. The fundamental interpretation must be based on the original text itself.

It would be one thing if we were talking about dialogue containing personal bias—like Kakine Teitoku being confident he could beat Accelerator, or Thor claiming Othinus surpassed human imagination of omnipotence. But what grounds are there to deny a section where the omniscient narrator explains the current situation of the story?

Are you claiming that "since it was unfolded only for the human world, the mythological Phases must have been intact"? That is your conjecture, not the text.

The text clearly mentions that hundreds of billions of Phases are overlapped as the structure of the world, and the author explicitly described from an omniscient perspective that the world itself was destroyed by Othinus.

Are you the author?
Or are you just someone ignoring the author's words to claim your argument is correct?
Answer me.
 
Yea, that Mental Out chapter is pretty damning on the dimensional front. Without the Teleport dimensions being valid size, I think Curtana only gets to 'at least 5D' via direct statements alone. Since both are incompatible, the only way to reconcile is:
a) Multiple dimensional theories are simultaneously true somehow. (We have Superstring Theory (Teleporters) and Curtana's dimensions, which afaik don't follow any real world model in the series)
b) There are at least two sets of dimensions in the verse.

Since the author only provides the basic story framework for both the Mental Out and Railgun comics and is not heavily involved in the detailed depictions, they cannot be directly applied to the narration of the main novels.

Does a description of 'compacted dimensions' exist in even a single line of the main novel series?

“Did you know? If you sever a three-dimensional material, its cross-section becomes two-dimensional. If you sever a two-dimensional material, its cross-section appears in the form of one dimension.”

“Similarly, if you sever a higher-dimensional material or space different from this three-dimensional one, the cross-section is output into the world in a three-dimensional form. Consequently, the debris material of such cross-sections is exposed.”

“Though, strictly speaking, this cuts through all dimensions existing at these coordinates simultaneously, regardless of whether they are high or low dimensions. It seems that among the cross-sectional materials that appear, the only ones we can perceive are ‘those appearing in the three-dimensional world.’”

Is it perhaps the result of severing a dimension again on top of the debris material created by severing a dimension?

The description of dimensions used for Curtana is a depiction based on Euclidean geometry.
And this is the same for the description of Aleister's Windowless Building in New Testament Volume 18, where the expression 'Euclidean geometry' is explicitly used.

If, as you claim, the dimensions shown in Mental Out are compacted dimensions, then that must be treated as separate from the dimensions spoken of regarding Curtana.

The setting of 'compacted dimensions' does not even appear in the main story.
The dimensions explained regarding Curtana are Euclidean dimensions, and Euclidean geometry dimensions do not use strange settings like compacted dimensions.
 
Since the author only provides the basic story framework for both the Mental Out and Railgun comics and is not heavily involved in the detailed depictions, they cannot be directly applied to the narration of the main novels.

Does a description of 'compacted dimensions' exist in even a single line of the main novel series?
This distinction doesn't matter on the wiki in regards to canonicity. An easy example is Boruto and DBS in relation to Naruto and DB.

No, the main novels don't discuss size at all, so technically this is not contradictory information as far as Teleportation goes. The 'folding space' mechanics are new though. Previously we assumed M-Theory because it's a theory that deals with 11D, but there is no directly stated theory in the novels. Then Curtana introduces dimensional debris, so extra dimensions must be larger than the small dimensions assumed in Superstring Theory/M-Theory. It also introduces the common fictional "dimensions are both large enough that you should be able to see and touch them and impossible to interact with normally" aka magic.
TLDR: The science theory descriptions were vague enough you could neatly treat them both as the same thing before the MO chapter.
Is it perhaps the result of severing a dimension again on top of the debris material created by severing a dimension?

The description of dimensions used for Curtana is a depiction based on Euclidean geometry.
And this is the same for the description of Aleister's Windowless Building in New Testament Volume 18, where the expression 'Euclidean geometry' is explicitly used.

If, as you claim, the dimensions shown in Mental Out are compacted dimensions, then that must be treated as separate from the dimensions spoken of regarding Curtana.

The setting of 'compacted dimensions' does not even appear in the main story.
The dimensions explained regarding Curtana are Euclidean dimensions, and Euclidean geometry dimensions do not use strange settings like compacted dimensions.
Windowless building uses non-Euclidean iirc. (Nomer for impossible/incomprehensible geometry) I don't recall the word Euclidean being used with Curtana's dimensions, but I agree its description is incompatible with MO.
 
The Pure World = The Layer of Physical Science = The Fundamental Foundation = The Material World.
You keep strangely using the term 'Phase of the Human World' all by yourself, but neither I nor Kamachi have ever used such a strange expression. What on earth do you mean by the 'Phase of the Human World'? Are you referring to the Material World as the 'Phase of the Human World'?
It doesn't have a canon name, but yes, that's what I am referring to when I say "Human Phase".

But no, the "Human Phase" isn't the Pure World, read the other quotes I sent if you disagree with the Lilith one, Coronzon EXPLICITLY differentiates the phase she is in and the one she was aiming to destroy (i.e the Pure World).

“By passing all that power through this foundational layer, that ‘bottom’ layer can be
broken and removed. From there, all other phases will be destroyed along with this one.
Without the core, the other forces cannot maintain their revolutions.”
"From there" refers to the foundational, bottom layer, "this one" refers to the phase Coronzon is currently in, that being the Human Phase.

This is one of the few times both Phases are actually talked about simultaneously and it's clear that they aren't the same.

The other one being the Curtana one which I also sent, where Aiwass, the one being we know exists in the Pure World, is used as example of a being from ANOTHER PHASE, do you need a statement saying Aiwass is from the Pure World as well?


That is nothing more than your conjecture. Whether Phases exist inside or outside of dimensions, and whether Curtana can kill an existence of a Phase in another dimension, are separate issues.
Curtana's power is fundamentally the power of Michael, belonging to the Phase of Heaven.
If it is correct that a Phase is a higher-order concept than a Dimension, then there is no logical fallacy in using that higher power to sever a lower Dimension
First, Phases exist inside of the framework of dimensions, if they didn't they wouldn't collide with one another nor would Curtana be able to cut beings in other Phases.

Second, they aren't separate issues, because there isn't "another dimension", Toaru explicitly uses dimensions as movement axis rather than the "higher dimensional worlds" we see everywhere (Marvel and DC for example), the only way Curtana can slice through different Phases is if the Phases exist inside of the framework because it's power is only to cut "higher and lower dimensions".

This talk about "higher order" and "lower dimensions" is giving me mad SMT and Fate vibes, that's just not how the Toaru cosmology operates. Anyway, the Pure World isn't a lower Dimension, it's a different Phase (all Phases, as far as we can prove, have 3D beings), Michael being a Phasic being gives no authority towards different Phases (much less the Pure World) nor dimensions in general.

Also, are you really ignoring that Curtana also receives power from the UK? Do I have to remind you that the strongest spell in the verse was created using UK as a power source?


The description of the rubber string in the setting actually appeared in the main series, and I'm saying this because it sounds like you're refusing to admit even that fact.
Yes? The problem is that in the main series the rubber band theory is NEVER used to justify the existence of parallel worlds.

You make it sound as if the Rubber String Theory was modified just to integrate the existence of Tangram or Virtual-On. However, the people saying those things are just ordinary scientists living in Academy City.
Because it was, the entire deal there is that the rubber band theory was failing to explain the Virtual-On stuff (Blue Stalker, Tangram, etc) so the characters start to propose alterations without dropping the rubber band analogy.

They are inhabitants unique to the Index universe, and what they are discussing is merely the 'Rubber String Parallel World Theory'—one of the parallel world theories within their own world (the Index universe). At the same time, they are also mentioning the Many-Worlds Interpretation.
You keep conflating the Rubber String Parallel World Theory with the Many-Worlds Interpretation (where infinite multiverses actually exist), but I’m telling you, they are distinct concepts.
Calling the Rubber Band theory the RB Parallel World theory seems pretty useless to me, the entire base that the theory operates on is that from the multiple paths history could follow, it ultimately only follows a single one and the other ones don't come to be.

And I don't get why you're explaining that RBT and MWI aren't the same, could you point out when I conflated the two?


That is absolute nonsense. Where on earth was it stated that only one Phase can exist at a time?
"Nonsense", everything I said there was in reference from this quote from NT9:


She had wanted to return to her original home even if it meant making an enemy of this
entire world and using the members of her own group of Gremlin. But she had cast aside
the sole method of returning there in order to save Kamijou who had been wandering
through another world just like her. He did not know what change of heart had led to that,
but the result told him everything he needed to know. After everything had ended,
something had to have happened
I had already sent this before but I will try to explain what's going on:

Othinus made so many Phase Shifts to her world that she couldn't revert them anymore.

She wanted to revert the world (with the current one being Touma's) back to her original world.

At the end of NT9, she faces the choice of bringing Touma's world back or bringing her own world back, she brings Touma's.

Nothing of this would happen if her Original World and Touma's World, which the quote above clearly explains is talking about the Human World/Phase, not the totality of existence, could exist side by side.

Not even just this, the series frequently points out how each Phase is a collection of multiple interpretations, each interpretation of Hell, Heaven and whatever else would be its own Phase if more than one of each could exist at the same time, like, c'mon bro.

I will answer the rest later, so don't reply to this one just yet, from where does this quote come from tho?

"That is just a meaningless story to tell someone who knows the results from the start—ah, excuse me, to someone who just sees. Anyway, once the true nature was revealed, Coronzon's side couldn't stop either. The Ceremony of Mo'aher. It was an attempt to destroy the Physical World, the very bottom of the bottom that serves as the foundation for all mythologies, and flush all Phases down a giant drain."
 
Nah, I won't wait, wtf?

Just looking at this, your statement that only a single Phase can exist has already been debunked long ago, hasn't it?
Bro, actually READ WHAT I SAID:

Othinus entire plot, battle with Touma and final decision revolves around one simple fact: there's only one of each Phase at a time, and she had to choose between hers and Touma's.

ONE

OF

EACH

I didn't ever say that there is ONLY ONE PHASE, I said that there aren't multiple of a same Phase existing simultaneously, there's is only one Heaven, one Human Phase, one Pure World, etc.


Are you the author?
Or are you just someone ignoring the author's words to claim your argument is correct?
Answer me.
You're the one ignoring what I am saying.

Holy ****.
 
The higher dimensions of To Aru are compactified, or in other words, too small to qualify for tiering.




The links above are evidence of that.
ngl these statements come from senior who was frozen a long time so that info is likely outdated and it doesn't really fit into how esp teleportation works since there was a statement that esper teleportation is related to schrödingers cat instead of what is implied in mental out (string theory) which is way more consistent with the power system itself



this is the scan


so im not sure how valid that explanation is from senior
 
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ngl these statements come from senior who was frozen a long time so that info is likely outdated
This is just wrong

First because AC is way ahead of us so whatever they knew when Senior was roaming is still on par with what we know today.

Second because Kamino doesn't deny anything of what she said and it's never at any point even implied to be an unreliable description.

and it doesn't really fit into how esp teleportation works since there was a statement that esper teleportation is related to schrödingers cat instead of what is implied in mental out (string theory) which is way more consistent with the power system itself



this is the scan


so im not sure how valid that explanation is from senior

I don't think they actually contradict each other? Your scan doesn't talk about the nature or scale of the dimensions.

Indeed, Quantum stuff mainly talks about the smallest units such as particles and quarks, that the 11 dimensions have been stated to be related to quantum theories in the novels straight up corroborates the idea that they are compact dimensions.
 
First because AC is way ahead of us so whatever they knew when Senior was roaming is still on par with what we know today.

does our world has esp powers ? no

im reffering to the delevoment of esp power not the general knowlege of quantum physics

Second because Kamino doesn't deny anything of what she said

why should she deny it she already lied about her ability in earlier chapters to hide the nature of her power ( even that explaination doesn't fit the description of what we saw in the actual explanation later either considering the third dimensional objects would not fit into a compact dimension the size lower than an atom even if she miscalcs its a self contradictory )

and it's never at any point even implied to be an unreliable description.

its not really consitent with the esps of the main series at all

from the explaination given it is closer to thor's ability or an wormhole than actual esp teleportation that we saw in index or railgun

but still mental out is still contiuing so things might change im just saying that we shouldn't blindly trust a statement with this much that doesn't fit within the cosmology that was build up to (like it doesn't push the already existing matter apart to fit the object being teleported because it just folds the world and sends the object to the destination or see below) especially from a character who was frozen for a long time

I don't think they actually contradict each other? Your scan doesn't talk about the nature or scale of the dimensions.
it does since schrödingers cat doesn't let the world fold onto each other and don't work under just 11 Dimension considering how possibilitys are handled within the AIM field as seen in in OT 6

Indeed, Quantum stuff mainly talks about the smallest units such as particles and quarks, that the 11 dimensions have been stated to be related to quantum theories in the novels straight up corroborates the idea that they are compact dimensions.
being related to quantum mechanics doesn't inherently mean the dimensions are compact infact the curtana being able to cut accels AIM field/reflection (it also spefically says cordinates of his barrier) and produce a spatial fragment debunks that notion that these spatial dimensions are quantum sized
 
does our world has esp powers ? no
?

She is describing how the dimensions themselves work, not esper powers.

im reffering to the delevoment of esp power not the general knowlege of quantum physics
What? I am really lost here, the only relevant part of what Senior said rn is her description of what are dimensions, what are you talking about if not that?


why should she deny it she already lied about her ability in earlier chapters to hide the nature of her power ( even that explaination doesn't fit the description of what we saw in the actual explanation later either considering the third dimensional objects would not fit into a compact dimension the size lower than an atom even if she miscalcs its a self contradictory )
First because she's not hiding her power at that point, the entire point of an info dump is to explain what a character can do, Kamino herself agrees with it as soon as Senior concludes, there's no reason whatsoever for what she said to be wrong, especially because Kamino's powers aren't even relevant to the parts that concern us, again, she was explaining how the dimensions themselves work and there's no reason for her to he wrong about these.

Second, there's no such thing as "fit into a compact dimension", it's not a subatomic sized place that you enter, it's a direction normally only accessible to super small things.

its not really consitent with the esps of the main series at all

from the explaination given it is closer to thor's ability or an wormhole than actual esp teleportation that we saw in index or railgun
How is it different from the "main series" espers to begin with? Can you explain what has changed at all in a practical sense?

Thor literally moves the planet, he isn't using teleportation at all, how is it similar to teleporters?

Why are you bringing wormholes up as well? Yeah, both are a form of teleportation, is that the similarity?


but still mental out is still contiuing so things might change im just saying that we shouldn't blindly trust a statement with this much that doesn't fit within the cosmology that was build up to (like it doesn't push the already existing matter apart to fit the object being teleported because it just folds the world and sends the object to the destination or see below) especially from a character who was frozen for a long time
First, no one is blindly trusting anything, if we were then the H1C rating would already be gone, the problem is acting like the new info is wrong (as you and others have been doing) when in the worst case scenario it would be a retcon, as it is the most recent explaination.

Trying to invalidate the canonicity of the manga or Senior's knowledge is just cope, crazy amounts of cope indeed.

Second, Senior never says that the matter teleported doesn't push the existing in the target space, like, wtf? She never addresses the side effects of teleportation at all, she only explains the mechanics.



it does since schrödingers cat doesn't let the world fold onto each other and don't work under just 11 Dimension considering how possibilitys are handled within the AIM field as seen in in OT 6
The origami part of Senior's explanation is obviously the fictional bullshit that is used to give Espers the ability to teleport, so it really doesn't change anything.

Like, this is no different from what Kamachi did with Coronzon and New World, he took an IRL concept and added a fictional mechanic to it, IRL travelling at near light speeds doesn't let you enter a temporally-disyncronized version of our universe.


being related to quantum mechanics doesn't inherently mean
I said it corroborates, not that it inherently means it, nice strawman.

In case you missed, abd you clearly did, the very first posts in this discussion concluded that it makes more sense that Curtana and Espers are talking about different dimensions.
 
@MrOMG

Still don't know what guidebook this is from
学園都市究極の目的とされるSYSTEM。 「神ならぬ 身にて天上の意思に辿り着くもの」という言葉通りに解釈 し、真理に到達する第一歩として人間を超える=「レベル6」 を生み出すことを目標とする研究者も多い。しかし「超能 力者(レベル5)」をさらに超えた高みは、通常の能力開 発では到達できないところにある。そのため、人体に大き な負担のかかる能力体結晶を用いた木原をはじめ、非人道 的な試みがなされているのだ。その一方で、小萌先生のよ うに能力者の6割を占める「無能力者(レベル0)」にこ そSYSTEM到達へのカギがあると考える者も少なから ず存在する。いずれにせよ、SYSTEM自体、全く未知 のものであり、レベル6の創造すらもそこに至る第一歩にし か過ぎないことだけは確かである。
Japanese wiki:
科学者である木原幻生テレスティーナの発言によれば、
絶対能力者(レベル6)と同一視されているようだ。
幻生やテレスティーナは、能力体結晶の完成により道を開こうとしていた。
また、別方面では一方通行を利用した絶対能力進化(レベル6シフト)実験などが計画されている。
ただし解説書によれば、「レベル6の創造すらも、SYSTEMへと至る第一歩に過ぎない」らしく、
アレイスターも「レベル6の先にあるもの」を目指しているという旨の発言をしている。
On Level 6 being one step into SYSTEM

Edit:
TUfSGyD.png

🤔
 
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?

She is describing how the dimensions themselves work, not esper powers.
the theory which the esp power is based on and its functions

What? I am really lost here, the only relevant part of what Senior said rn is her description of what are dimensions, what are you talking about if not that?
same as the above

First because she's not hiding her power at that point, the entire point of an info dump is to explain what a character can do, Kamino herself agrees with it as soon as Senior concludes, there's no reason whatsoever for what she said to be wrong,
she only says that she isn't good at teleporting herself which isn't agreeing with her on the dimensions

especially because Kamino's powers aren't even relevant to the parts that concern us, again, she was explaining how the dimensions themselves work and there's no reason for her to he wrong about these.

its relevant
Second, there's no such thing as "fit into a compact dimension", it's not a subatomic sized place that you enter, it's a direction normally only accessible to super small things.
bruh the distance in that dimension is the shortest thats why they use it which already implies size it still doesn't answer anything considering the world folds to the shortest distance which is 11D and then travel from there to the 3D coordinate which again that passage is smaller than an atom


How is it different from the "main series" espers to begin with? Can you explain what has changed at all in a practical sense?
main line teleporters teleport themselveles and don't fold the world while kamino does it and move the world to create a smallest distance to move there are also the previous stuff like overlapping and not disanigrating or nothing happening when shirai fails her calculation of the teleportation

Thor literally moves the planet, he isn't using teleportation at all, how is it similar to teleporters?

being descriped as a perfect mode of awaki's ability and also is exaclty what kamino's ability does aka manipulate the world to move

Why are you bringing wormholes up as well? Yeah, both are a form of teleportation, is that the similarity?

folding space

First, no one is blindly trusting anything, if we were then the H1C rating would already be gone, the problem is acting like the new info is wrong (as you and others have been doing) when in the worst case scenario it would be a retcon, as it is the most recent explaination.

Trying to invalidate the canonicity of the manga or Senior's knowledge is just cope, crazy amounts of cope indeed.

Second, Senior never says that the matter teleported doesn't push the existing in the target space, like, wtf? She never addresses the side effects of teleportation at all, she only explains the mechanics.
its already gone its just a matter of time someone makes a crt of this

not an argument

still this explanation doesn't explain how the push works from a small direction in particulare the overlap or the side effect kamino has. your missing the point of what i said

this explaination it adds more inconsistencys than answers and straight up condradicts what is build up within toaru

The origami part of Senior's explanation is obviously the fictional bullshit that is used to give Espers the ability to teleport, so it really doesn't change anything.

Like, this is no different from what Kamachi did with Coronzon and New World, he took an IRL concept and added a fictional mechanic to it, IRL travelling at near light speeds doesn't let you enter a temporally-disyncronized version of our universe.
it does because it completly redefines the basis of teleportation and makes it closer to thors ability which kamachi directly descriped to be not teleportation
I said it corroborates, not that it inherently means it, nice strawman.
the the 11 dimensions being related to quantum theory and being corroborated into the novel doesn't mean it supports compact dimensions not every theory within quantum physics uses small dimensions especially when the curtana directly disproves that notion by cutting aim fields

In case you missed, abd you clearly did, the very first posts in this discussion concluded that it makes more sense that Curtana and Espers are talking about different dimensions.
and yet the curtana cuts that dimension and acts like the one which the curtana cuts instead of compact dimensions also it spefically says "quantum theories related to schrödingers" it spefically talks about the theories from schrödigers not super string theory/ M theory

another interpretation of this whole scene is that kamino's ability is fundementally diffrent from regular esp teleportation considering personal reality's are their own set of reality with diffrent rules which would be better considering the problems i already layed out instead it being the standard for all teleporters
 
the theory which the esp power is based on and its functions
I am not sure if this is what you meant, but I want to correct that, in-verse, what she is describing isn't a theory, but a confirmed aspect of the universe as they're using it for the esper powers.

Irl 11D is a theory, in Toaru it's been tested and proved to exist.


she only says that she isn't good at teleporting herself which isn't agreeing with her on the dimensions
Be fr, she doesn't even imply Senior got anything wrong, it doesn't even make sense for her to not know what dimensions are.


bruh the distance in that dimension is the shortest thats why they use it which already implies size it still doesn't answer anything considering the world folds to the shortest distance which is 11D and then travel from there to the 3D coordinate which again that passage is smaller than an atom
It's not size in sense of a damn atom-sized place that you enter and exit at another location, the esper teleporters are about directions and perspective, dimensions aren’t objects so they don't have volume.

There's no passage whatsoever either, idk what you're about.


main line teleporters teleport themselveles and don't fold the world while kamino does it and move the world to create a smallest distance to move there are also the previous stuff like overlapping and not disanigrating or nothing happening when shirai fails her calculation of the teleportation
Kamino isn't a teleporter to begin with, as Senior explained, Kamino is an 11D manipulator, teleportation is a sub-application in her case, so whatever she does not fitting what teleporters can do doesn’t matter because of this.


folding space
Okay and what does it actually mean to the discussion? Again, the only part that actually matters is the scale of the dimensions.

being descriped as a perfect mode of awaki's ability and also is exaclty what kamino's ability does aka manipulate the world to move
Kamino and other teleporters use space, Thor messes with the planet's rotation. Calling both "world" is wrong when we know the difference.

Also, what was described as a "perfect mode of awaki"?

its already gone its just a matter of time someone makes a crt of this
Any CRT on this topic will be closed by a mod until the arc ends, it's a verse wide change and a topic that delves into the standards of the wiki for dimensional scaling, we aren’t rushing this because some random mf can't wait.


not an argument
The cope part? Wasn't an argument, it was a statement.

Y'all see a downgrade and want to remove the manga from the canon or make up stuff about a Level 5 having wrong knowledge about physics.

still this explanation doesn't explain how the push works from a small direction in particulare the overlap or the side effect kamino has. your missing the point of what i said
That does not matter at all.

Esper powers can do whatever bullshit Kamachi is in the mood to create, what matters here is the nature of the dimensions they're using.

this explaination it adds more inconsistencys than answers and straight up condradicts what is build up within toaru
We barely have any extensive, technical description of the dimensions in the novels.

If we had then this discussion pretty much wouldn't exist to begin with.

it does because it completly redefines the basis of teleportation and makes it closer to thors ability which kamachi directly descriped to be not teleportation
It's not close to Thor's ability, his ability isn't even teleport for God's sake, it's high speed movement.

Trying to find a similarity by oversimplifying both as "manipulate the world to go from point A to point B" is wrong in all possible levels.

the the 11 dimensions being related to quantum theory and being corroborated into the novel doesn't mean it supports compact dimensions not every theory within quantum physics uses small dimensions especially when the curtana directly disproves that notion by cutting aim fields
First, not every quantum physics theory uses compact dimensions IRL because compact dimensions are themselves a theory IRL, as I said above, in Toaru they've got proof that they are real already, so obviously they will pop up more when dealing with small scale stuff (quantum physics).

Second, why are you bringing AIM fields up? What do they have to do with dimensions? I saw you brought up the IND before but it really doesn't have a place in this discussion yet, its connection to the 11th dimension was hinted at in Mental Out but we have no info about how tied they are so far.

Also, again, everyone so far has agreed Curtana uses different types of dimensions, so she shouldn't be part of this discussion either.


and yet the curtana cuts that dimension
What do you mean by "that dimension"?


compact dimensions also it spefically says "quantum theories related to schrödingers" it spefically talks about the theories from schrödigers not super string theory/ M theory
It also says "mostly" meaning it's not exclusive to stuff related to Schrödinger.


another interpretation of this whole scene is that kamino's ability is fundementally diffrent from regular esp teleportation considering personal reality's are their own set of reality with diffrent rules which would be better considering the problems i already layed out instead it being the standard for all teleporters
...

The esper powers don't matter whatsoever for this discussion.
 
I am not sure if this is what you meant, but I want to correct that, in-verse, what she is describing isn't a theory, but a confirmed aspect of the universe as they're using it for the esper powers.

Irl 11D is a theory, in Toaru it's been tested and proved to exist.
can you show me where exactly its proven since most things i showed disproves that they are compact

Be fr, she doesn't even imply Senior got anything wrong, it doesn't even make sense for her to not know what dimensions are.
this ties to my previous comment

It's not size in sense of a damn atom-sized place that you enter and exit at another location, the esper teleporters are about directions and perspective, dimensions aren’t objects so they don't have volume.

There's no passage whatsoever either, idk what you're about.
are we serious right now
Kamino isn't a teleporter to begin with, as Senior explained, Kamino is an 11D manipulator, teleportation is a sub-application in her case, so whatever she does not fitting what teleporters can do doesn’t matter because of this.

it matters

that annilation comes directly when she fails to teleport something and the 11D is spefically for the theory of teleportation

Okay and what does it actually mean to the discussion? Again, the only part that actually matters is the scale of the dimensions.
its the application of the dimension

Kamino and other teleporters use space, Thor messes with the planet's rotation. Calling both "world" is wrong when we know the difference.

Also, what was described as a "perfect mode of awaki"?
the point is the world moves instead of the character


here is what kamachi said in the afterword about almighty thor's ability
Any CRT on this topic will be closed by a mod until the arc ends, it's a verse wide change and a topic that delves into the standards of the wiki for dimensional scaling, we aren’t rushing this because some random mf can't wait.
sure

That does not matter at all.

Esper powers can do whatever bullshit Kamachi is in the mood to create, what matters here is the nature of the dimensions they're using.
esp teleportation works on that nature tho its inherently connected

your adressing nothing with that

its contradicting how the verse used the dimensions in the case of teleportation its fails completely on how the mechanics work and nature

them being small or "directions" causes to much contradictions within the series
We barely have any extensive, technical description of the dimensions in the novels.

If we had then this discussion pretty much wouldn't exist to begin with.
so we ignore

curtana

every time esp teleportation happend and how its descriped

the overlap of teleportation

miyama shaei's ability of forsight which uses the third dimensional framework and was able to be changed via shirai's teleportation

accel being able of reflecting 11D teleportation

and so much more

the series overall had hints and some explaination on how the dimensions worked and well senior's explaination threw a wrench into all of this
It's not close to Thor's ability, his ability isn't even teleport for God's sake, it's high speed movement.

Trying to find a similarity by oversimplifying both as "manipulate the world to go from point A to point B" is wrong in all possible levels.
your the only one who is oversimplifying it

first its not just high speed movement

second both litearlly use that concept even the NT 10 afterword statement supports my argument as awaki could do something similare if she was perfect

but now using mental out this statement and how thor's ability being spefically descriped to not be teleportation would be useless because every teleport esper would fold the world and "move" there (even awaki)

this should hammer down the problems this explaination causes here

First, not every quantum physics theory uses compact dimensions IRL because compact dimensions are themselves a theory IRL, as I said above, in Toaru they've got proof that they are real already, so obviously they will pop up more when dealing with small scale stuff (quantum physics).
prove that compact dimensions exist except from that one statement in mental out

Second, why are you bringing AIM fields up? What do they have to do with dimensions? I saw you brought up the IND before but it really doesn't have a place in this discussion yet, its connection to the 11th dimension was hinted at in Mental Out but we have no info about how tied they are so far.
curtana cutting AIM fields proves that these are higher spatial dimension like the ones that are explained in OT 18 and there are still the problems that i laid out here if they were 11 (see below)
it does since schrödingers cat doesn't let the world fold onto each other and don't work under just 11 Dimension considering how possibilitys are handled within the AIM field as seen in in OT 6
Also, again, everyone so far has agreed Curtana uses different types of dimensions, so she shouldn't be part of this discussion either.
NT 22R disproves that notion

this is a bandwagon fallacy

having multiple people agree on this doesn't negate counter evidence
What do you mean by "that dimension"?
AIM fields/personal reality
It also says "mostly" meaning it's not exclusive to stuff related to Schrödinger.

yet schrödinger is in the foreground clearly reffering to that instead of string theory

it doesn't make sense that this statement is reffering to string theory here
...

The esper powers don't matter whatsoever for this discussion.
they do matter how do you gonna prove the compact dimensions or any prove of 11D without esp ?

its directly tied to it
 
can you show me where exactly its proven since most things i showed disproves that they are compact
Read what I said again.

The compact part has nothing to do with it.

???????????

Again, literally everyone has agreed that Curtana and Espers are using different dimensions.

The first scan also literally says "dimensions of the smallest perspective", they are movement axis that are available, normally, to super small things, but Espers can use them due to being literally reality warpers, it's not something that'd be possible otherwise.


it matters

that annilation comes directly when she fails to teleport something and the 11D is spefically for the theory of teleportation
No, her powers are different, so the consequences being different doesn't mean anything, i.e it doesn't matter.

And again, nothing in the entire chapter or any subsequent ones has even implied her description of dimensions is inaccurate in the slightest.


its the application of the dimensions
This isn't helping the discussion to progress.


the point is the world moves instead of the character
That's not a point because "world" is a completely different thing in the two instances, you're making a false equivalence, drop this.

here is what kamachi said in the afterword about almighty thor's ability
And how does this add anything to the discussion? Even that quote says they'd be "similar" not "the same", you're desperately trying to make these parallels that just won't mean anything to the discussion.

so we ignore

curtana
Holy ****, how can the Toaru fandom be all the same?

For the 10th time, Curtana is using different types of dimensions, the two don't fit together.


every time esp teleportation happend and how its descriped
Which hasn't change in the slightest, Kuroko also appears in Mental Out, did her powers change in any perceptible way?


the overlap of teleportation
Wasn't ever brought up in Mental Out iirc.


miyama shaei's ability of forsight which uses the third dimensional framework and was able to be changed via shirai's teleportation
??????

The teleportation is still 11D, wtf has changed in relation to Shaei?


accel being able of reflecting 11D teleportation
Which is basically bullshit that's never given much detail, so that he retains his spot as the unbeatable #1 esper, regardless of which route you go for the teleporters, given that Teleportation is meant to be instantaneous, literally 0 time lag.

But like Shaei, this interaction isn’t affected at all by what kind of dimension is being used (this one even more so given, again, it's bullshit).


the series overall had hints and some explaination on how the dimensions worked and well senior's explaination threw a wrench into all of this
"Hints" aren't helping us here, either you give a fundamental description about what dimensions the espers are using from the novels or this is just pointless.


first its not just high speed movement
Oh?

What is it then? Please explain what Thor does outside of moving the world around him
second both litearlly use that concept even the NT 10 afterword statement supports my argument as awaki could do something similare if she was perfect
Again, "similar" doesn't mean "the same" and... do I have to repeat that this has no impact in the discussion at hand?


but now using mental out this statement and how thor's ability being spefically descriped to not be teleportation would be useless because every teleport esper would fold the world and "move" there (even awaki)
Which is bullshit because, again, "world" doesn't mean the same in these two powers and a big part about Almighty is the sheer scale it operates at.


prove that compact dimensions exist except from that one statement in mental out
First, burden is on you to prove that esper teleporters use large dimensions.

Second, I will do that the same day you provide a recent, high detail explanation of esper dimensions from the novels.


curtana cutting AIM fields proves that these are higher spatial dimension like the ones that are explained in OT 18 and there are still the problems that i laid out here if they were 11 (see below)
What?

AIM fields aren't higher dimensional.

Besides, Curtana cuts anything that is occupying its target coordinates, this doesn't even make sense.


NT 22R disproves that notion

this is a bandwagon fallacy

having multiple people agree on this doesn't negate counter evidence
Bruh.

NT22R proves nothing.

There's no counter evidence, everything you've provided so far is tangential at best.


AIM fields/personal reality
If you really want to make this claim, I'd say to wait until MO is completed, given the foreshadow of the IND earlier in the manga.


yet schrödinger is in the foreground clearly reffering to that instead of string theory

it doesn't make sense that this statement is reffering to string theory here
Yeah, cause the strings are still theories in Toaru, 11D and Schrödinger's Cat (possibly other things from him as well, idk) have been already weaponized in Toaru by the espers, it makes sense that further research would be done and connections between the two would come up, which makes even more sense when 11D is referring to compact dimensions that start to appear the smaller you go.

Like, Esper themselves are about manipulating the microscopic to affect the macroscopic, it doesn't even fit for Teleporters to be using Large Dimensions, that's what Holistic Espers would do.


they do matter how do you gonna prove the compact dimensions or any prove of 11D without esp ?

its directly tied to it
Tied doesn't mean the same.

What matters is the size of the cosmology, how characters interact with said cosmology doesn't matter until the first is settled.
 
Read what I said again.

The compact part has nothing to do with it.
what the entire disscussion is these dimensions are compact/small or not

your the one who claimed that it is been proven to exist in toaru

ngl these statements come from senior who was frozen a long time so that info is likely outdated and it doesn't really fit into how esp teleportation works since there was a statement that esper teleportation is related to schrödingers cat instead of what is implied in mental out (string theory) which is way more consistent with the power system itself
this is the topic

i know 11D exists but the entire compact thing doesn't make sense when we look at the entire series

???????????

Again, literally everyone has agreed that Curtana and Espers are using different dimensions.

The first scan also literally says "dimensions of the smallest perspective", they are movement axis that are available, normally, to super small things,
because thats the smallest distance and "super small" things also have a size because it says the smaller you go the more dimensions you see

not that the dimension has no size or volume

but Espers can use them due to being literally reality warpers, it's not something that'd be possible otherwise.

the theory explictly says that they use that shortend distance after the world got folded not that they ignore it

No, her powers are different, so the consequences being different doesn't mean anything, i.e it doesn't matter.

bruh it explicitly happends when she uses teleportation them being diffrent natures doesn't mean anything when both use 11D

And again, nothing in the entire chapter or any subsequent ones has even implied her description of dimensions is inaccurate in the slightest.


that ignores alot

That's not a point because "world" is a completely different thing in the two instances, you're making a false equivalence, drop this.
world in that comparision is relevant because its reffering to the thing they move instead of themselves for thor its the planet or using that one statment arguably the phase they in and for teleporters its space/spatial dimensions. your completly ignoring the point of my argument besides that statement says "similar" it doesn't need to have be the same "world" the functions would be still the same

thats like saying esp doesn't have micro and marco similare to the septhiroth because mirco and marco use something else (mirco and marco on the septhiroth is reffering to the human body and the spheres) both still have the functions of micro and marco despite using two diffrent medium's

also your own scan later implies that it reffers more than just the planet as it talks about othinus and her ability to create worlds (which is obviously not planets but phases which would contain those dimension)

And how does this add anything to the discussion? Even that quote says they'd be "similar" not "the same", you're desperately trying to make these parallels that just won't mean anything to the discussion.
it would be similare function wise if awaki would be perfect

it adds that teleporters don't move the world instead they move themselves for teleportation except for a theoratical awaki that mastered her ability

Holy ****, how can the Toaru fandom be all the same?

For the 10th time, Curtana is using different types of dimensions, the two don't fit together.
then why was curtana to be able to cut it if they don't fit ?
Which hasn't change in the slightest, Kuroko also appears in Mental Out, did her powers change in any perceptible way?
no thats why kamino is a odd one and if that theory (string theory) applied to all teleporters it would be the same but they didn't this leads to two conclusions

1: kamino's ability is contradicting or the theory is inaccurate

2: every esp uses diffrent laws that are unique to each other and use diffrent types of dimensions (which was other suggestion that you denied )

Wasn't ever brought up in Mental Out iirc.
the overlap litearlly happend also explain how the overlap can accur when using small dimensions this is important because its one of the mechanics of dimensions

??????

The teleportation is still 11D, wtf has changed in relation to Shaei?
point is that shaei's calcs use the third dimensional framework and makes predictions that are impossible to prevent from the third dimension so if the 11 dimension was "smaller" or just "perspective" then the overwrite wouldn't happen due it being still within 3 dimensional framework in size which is contradicting of what happend in india poker

Which is basically bullshit that's never given much detail, so that he retains his spot as the unbeatable #1 esper, regardless of which route you go

But like Shaei, this interaction isn’t affected at all by what kind of dimension is being used (this one even more so given, again, it's bullshit).
it shows that teleportation uses vectors which need magnitude which is size or lenght it directly shows that these dimensions are "places" with size also your argument privor doesn't make sense if they skip the passage though reality warping then there would be no vector for accel to reflect to begin with (he can't reflect non vector attacts btw as stated in NT 3) because they would just be there without traveling through something

the theory atleast explains how accelerator could reflect something but saying they skip that passage with reality warping is complete nonsense it was never stated that they skipped it it spefically reffers to teleportation folding the world and moving through that folded space


regardless of which route you go for the teleporters, given that Teleportation is meant to be instantaneous, literally 0 time lag.
how is teleportation instant with senior's explaination

"Hints" aren't helping us here, either you give a fundamental description about what dimensions the espers are using from the novels or this is just pointless.
i already gave enough

the only evidence for compact dimensions is senior's explaination
Oh?

What is it then? Please explain what Thor does outside of moving the world around him
that scan goes against that its just high speed movement its the world puts him in a position where he can win against his opponent

thor himself doesn't need to move to change his position and the LN supports it as he is no more than a normal human if he would move that fast himself he would be torn apart

its not teleportation in that sense that he skips space its instead the coordinates reajust itself via rotation and reality warping (its not just spinning the planet since how can he go "under" the train by just spinning the planet)
Again, "similar" doesn't mean "the same" and... do I have to repeat that this has no impact in the discussion at hand?
the reason why its called similare because one uses teleportation and one does not but the teleporter can use a methode to do the same which is what we see in mental out with the general theory of teleportation (moving the world itself instead of themselves)
Which is bullshit because, again, "world" doesn't mean the same in these two powers and a big part about Almighty is the sheer scale it operates at.
what would be "world" in context of the teleporters then ?

having diffrent words for "world" doesn't change the fact that the methodes are the same as explained earlier "world" is just the medium they move instead of themseleves

First, burden is on you to prove that esper teleporters use large dimensions.

Second, I will do that the same day you provide a recent, high detail explanation of esper dimensions from the novels.

already proven due how the overlap contradicts the entire theory that the dimensions are small and more

there is also how touma was able bring things back from teleportation which wouldn't really work if the world was folded via teleportation this is same phenomenon
that happends when touma negated the slicing and returned the dimension that was sliced back (teleporters bring the objects into higher dimensions while curtana cuts the higher dimension and brings those fragments into the lower dimensions ) or uiharu's explaination which ironically has more supporting evidence than what senior stated considering that seniors explaination uses excpliticly a "tunnel" aka a folded space for teleportation or how teleporters can enter the windowless building which surpasses euclid and is easily a higher dimension by ignoring the three dimensions

you don't need a high detail explaination of how dimensions work when the series shows it directly

What?

AIM fields aren't higher dimensional.
AIM fields are quantum structures tied to their personal reality if they use esp powers the AIM follows like when a fire ball is fired so even kuruko's teleportation results in AIM being there where she teleports which we see in jailbreaker (althrough the end result of aim being there because tsurigane can only see 3 dimensions)

it wouldn't make sense that AIM doesn't have higher dimensional function considering teleportation functions on 11D and need are conceptualized within the personal reality which AIM fields are the outline of that reality and also the fact that accel is able to reflect it
Besides, Curtana cuts anything that is occupying its target coordinates, this doesn't even make sense.
yeah but that doesn't change the fact that his barrier was cut which goes up to atleast to 11D

Bruh.

NT22R proves nothing.

There's no counter evidence, everything you've provided so far is tangential at best.
curtana cuts aim fields and aiwass so yeah "proves nothing"

Yeah, cause the strings are still theories in Toaru, 11D and Schrödinger's Cat (possibly other things from him as well, idk) have been already weaponized in Toaru by the espers, it makes sense that further research would be done and connections between the two would come up, which makes even more sense when 11D is referring to compact dimensions that start to appear the smaller you go.
that would make sense if that statement from senior was written before this one but no

nothing implies in that statement that it talks about string theory
Like, Esper themselves are about manipulating the microscopic to affect the macroscopic, it doesn't even fit for Teleporters to be using Large Dimensions, that's what Holistic Espers would do.
thats completely ignoring the functions of whats happening by holoism its using the marco to change micro so by using planetary destruction they could make changes in the quantum world this does not translate into teleportation by any means

personal reality brings out their own reality which causes changes on the quantum to affect the physical world but quantum physics isn't neccerely just being small it can go also in higher spatial dimensions that are not compact like hilbert space within MWI or RS2 so saying that large dimensions don't fit there is false

Tied doesn't mean the same.

What matters is the size of the cosmology, how characters interact with said cosmology doesn't matter until the first is settled.
then have fun trying to proof compact dimensions without the help of teleporters or kamino's ability✌️😭
 
@MrOMG

Still don't know what guidebook this is from

Japanese wiki:

On Level 6 being one step into SYSTEM

Edit:
TUfSGyD.png

🤔
It's from Railgun guidebook
 
Can we admit Aleister, Niang-Niang, and Coronzon have fate manipulation from actual sparks yet? Like it's directly told to us that Aleister grabs the sparks that already exist in the world and redirects it. Hell it was a central character trait that he redirects it to himself so that it doesn't harm anyone else when he uses magic and that he could have saved his daughter's life if he developed the spell sooner.
“Gah...bah!? Are you saying you’ve constructed a way to gather together the unpredictable
sparks and spray so you can target and fire it!?”
“Do not act so surprised by what is no more than a lightning rod. And it is limited to the
magic that I launch myself. But if I had completed this spell one hundred years earlier, I
might have been able to show some kindness to an innocent baby.”
“You are familiar with magic recoil, aren’t you? That is the spray created by the
collisions between phases. I am not like Mathers or Westcott. When I contain that recoil
in my body instead of allowing the sparks to escape to elsewhere in the real world, you
have to expect something like this.”

“...”

“Don’t give me that look. This is the joyous proof that my power is not being a nuisance
to anyone else.”
According to Kamachi, anyone would realize what was happening when they see Niang-Niang use the word "sparks".
When she ran forward, the fanned-out weapons restlessly clanked together, sending
disconcerting sparks everywhere. It was like the electrodes of a stun gun but different.
Anyone who had pursued the system of magic to this point would realize what was
happening when they heard the word “sparks”.
Niang-Niang uses the sparks that Aleister hates.
“Magic God Niang-Niang...”
“I’m here to play, Aleister.”
That monster grinned while making a weapon out of the sparks and spray that the silver
girl loathed more than anything else.

Coronzon gives the sparks that exist a physical form and ensures death at the "fundamental level of destiny."
“Magic usage causes slight fluctuations in this world and the collisions between the unseen overlapping phases produce sparks which can at times be deadly. They are the source of the tragedy that sent Aleister Crowley down his path of carnage. What you see now is the result of my power bringing them down to this lower physical world and giving them form,” explained Coronzon, enjoying herself.
“The surface-level destruction is a mere trifle. Contact that and you will die. I am not talking about the surface-level shock or destruction. It will ensure your death at the more fundamental level of destiny.”
 
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