Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[Maniaunavailable]

Here is one approach I’ve considered:

The baseline physical world already encompasses various physical and mathematical laws—such as 11-dimensional, String Theory and Hilbert Space theory—along with the Many-Worlds Interpretation or Parallel Universe theory. My idea is that Alice utilizes these quantum theories as the very laws of Wonderland to expand the physical world itself.

Even if that direct expansion doesn't apply, we still have the structure of the "Emanation World," which contains the physical world

On top of that, there is the additional expansion into the "Hidden Phase" which transcends the concepts of dimensions, space, and time.

These are the upgrade paths I have in mind, but what direction do you envision for further upgrades?
If you let me know your thoughts, I can provide the necessary source excerpts in their original raw text.

this sounds good to me

 

[Alsotime]

lol literally nothing posted above disproves the canonical fact Toaru only has one timeline/universe, and the mental out manga literally just went in depth about something that was already heavily debated anyway

 

[Piamma]

lol literally nothing posted above disproves the canonical fact Toaru only has one timeline/universe, and the mental out manga literally just went in depth about something that was already heavily debated anyway

Are you ignoring the text from New Testament Volume 13 that I posted?

First, why don't you show me exactly where in the lore it is explicitly stated that the Toaru cosmology consists of a "one universe"?

「……、できない。できっこない。だって、並行世界というのは――」 "That's impossible. Because, parallel worlds are—"

「並行する世界が無限にある訳じゃない」 "It doesn't mean that parallel worlds exist infinitely."

"Impossible, because parallel worlds are..." "Yes, it is true that they cannot exist infinitely."

Regarding this specific passage, js06 clearly mistranslated it to imply that parallel worlds "do not exist," which is a distortion.

Kamachi's original intent explains that there is a single timeline (a proper time axis), and parallel worlds are created as branches resulting from events or divergences within that timeline. You can think of it as a concept very similar to the "Sacred Timeline" in Marvel.

The reason I cited the Virtual-On side story is that it provides the best example illustrating this exact mechanic. May I ask why you interpreted that as offering no refutation to the single universe theory?

If the Toaru cosmology were truly a single universe as you claim, the original text should have read, "Parallel worlds do not exist," or "Parallel worlds cannot exist," rather than saying, "It doesn't mean that they exist infinitely."

Am I wrong?

 

[korea1234]

lol literally nothing posted above disproves the canonical fact Toaru only has one timeline/universe, and the mental out manga literally just went in depth about something that was already heavily debated anyway

Kamishiro did not say there are no multiverses; he said there are not an infinite number of multiverses. Simply put, multiverses exist, but their number is not infinite.

 

[Alsotime]

What other universes are there then? Virtual On is none canonical. You’re trying to use a non canon story’s explicitly non canon version of the series cosmology and apply it to the main series

「……、できない。できっこない。だって、並行世界というのは――」 "That's impossible. Because, parallel worlds are—"

「並行する世界が無限にある訳じゃない」 "It doesn't mean that parallel worlds exist infinitely."

"Impossible, because parallel worlds are..." "Yes, it is true that they cannot exist infinitely."

Regarding this specific passage, js06 clearly mistranslated it to imply that parallel worlds "do not exist," which is a distortion.

Kamachi's original intent explains that there is a single timeline (a proper time axis), .

the translation you’re referring to literally says the same thing lol.

“My right hand is a collection of such dreams. I believe its name was…yes, World Rejecter.”
“You can’t. You can’t possibly. Parallel worlds don’t-…”
“Yes, the world is ultimately a straight line like the rubber string nailed onto pachinko machines. There is no infinite expanse of parallel worlds. But at the same time, the world is a rubber string. It can stretch or contract like time or space. The world we know has a surprising amount of waste. It’s like using only ten frames when using sixty fps film. No one will notice if you stick some subliminal footage in using two or three of the leftover frames. This is what you wished for, isn’t it? You Magic Gods wished for this even though you knew it could never come true. You checked the farthest reaches of the universe and all of the piled-up phases and you realized there was nothing new left. But if it was possible, you wished to leave behind this troublesome world and spread your wings in a new world no one else knows of.”

May I ask why you interpreted that as offering no refutation to the single universe theory?

The entire premise of the magic god problem is that they literally couldn’t find another universe. Besides Kamisato’s explanation still wouldn’t mean there “finite other worlds” when the world he’s telling Nephysts of is just ANOTHER pocket dimension. Explicitly a part of the universe that exists in unseen space, as per the explanation given.

There is one universe. That universe is made up of phases, which are finite and varying in size.

Othinus destroyed “infinite worlds” is her having recreated the world during the infinite hells she pu Touma through, she’s never destroyed multiple universes at once.

The world rejected world explicitly isn’t a parallel universe. It’s just the universe at a different frequency, etc.

Lastly even if the tangram is canon [Which it isn’t by the way, which is the entire premise of the die story which is a non canonical crossover, where parallel worlds exist to justify said crossover] no on would scale to it because the magic gods range is explicitly just this one universe.

That is all

For reference one last time. The concept of not just infinite, but any amount of parallel worlds(as in other universes, not phases, not the times othinus recreated the world, but as in another universe period), at all, that the other magic gods could scale to. Is debunked, permanently by this statements, which quite literally means the tangram couldn't be a thing canonically, at all

You Magic Gods wished for this even though you knew it could never come true. You checked the farthest reaches of the universe and all of the piled-up phases and you realized there was nothing new left. But if it was possible, you wished to leave behind this troublesome world and spread your wings in a new world no one else knows of.”

All you've done is try to make js06 seem like his mistranslated one sentence, and completely ignored the literal meaning of the next paragraph which quite literally explains why there are no other universes at all.

The statement "there aren't infinite parallel worlds" does not mean "there are fininte parallel worlds". it is just saying, in exact words, that the universe isn't a multiverse (no many worlds interpretation) and then it goes on to say there is only one.

The Tangram CANNOT BE CANON because it literally functions on the idea that there are infinite parallel worlds.
You can't use a scaling chain of, Othinus saying she can fight the tangram

Is this the extent to which you've cloaked yourself in mystery? I am the god of magic who plucked out one eye and hung by the neck to gain wisdom! This god warns you just once. Stop your one-sided peeking from above. Sit in the same seat. Otherwise, next time I'll drag out your very essence. Tangram."

Then that tangram can control and create infinite universes

(Contact? Is there a way for humans to control god? Would that make you into something like an almighty esper with control over the entire world instead of just fire or water or something?)

——On the other hand, the Tangram has something like a will of its own, so even if you do contact it, it will reject you if you are not accepted.

(If something like that went berserk, well, I can see how that would end badly. So does this Tangram god have a mind of its own?)

——That rejection takes an incredibly simple form. The power of the Tangram eternally exiles you to one of the infinitely expanding parallel worlds

To then infer Othinus can control infinite universes.

Not if in the same post you acknowledge another magic god, who actually knows more about the cosmology, agreeing with Kamisato that infinite parallel worlds don't exist. It's a very contradiction, and it only exists when you use a non canonical thing(the tangram) with a none canon statement or promotional statement for said non canonical crossover novel (othinus statement) with actual lore (the kamisato and nephthys convo)

The bottomline is the tangram is literally a non canon crossover with another franchise. It would never have a bearing on canon even if it wasn't contradicted, which it absolutely is. Also this quote

At first, I thought I should build a world that strictly follows the worldview of Virtual-On (and the more I did that, the more material I had to use). However, when Watari-san saw the plot I had come up with, he told me to split it into two pieces and put more of my own ideas(toaru) into it. I don't know how to describe how I felt at that time, but it was a really big shock, and I realized that this work was different from what I usually do.

Doesn't mean that it's canonically to the cosmology of toaru. It means that he tried to make the two match. Which is why he made a infinite universe anyway, because all he had to do was handwave some of his universes actual mechanics to make it make sense. This is a non canonical amalgamation

 

[Piamma]

For reference one last time. The concept of not just infinite, but any amount of parallel worlds(as in other universes, not phases, not the times othinus recreated the world, but as in another universe period), at all, that the other magic gods could scale to. Is debunked, permanently by this statements, which quite literally means the tangram couldn't be a thing canonically, at all
All you've done is try to make js06 seem like his mistranslated one sentence, and completely ignored the literal meaning of the next paragraph which quite literally explains why there are no other universes at all.

The statement "there aren't infinite parallel worlds" does not mean "there are fininte parallel worlds". it is just saying, in exact words, that the universe isn't a multiverse (no many worlds interpretation) and then it goes on to say there is only one.

"That quote doesn't mean parallel worlds are impossible. You are completely misunderstanding the source material.

'You knew it would never come true, yet you still wished for it, "Magic Gods." You investigated the ends of the universe and all overlapping phases, knowing full well there was nothing new left. Even so, [you thought], "If such a thing were possible, I want to cast aside all the troublesome mundane things... and spread my wings in a new world no one knows about."'

This passage signifies that even though the Magic Gods investigated the ends of the universe and all Phases, realizing nothing new existed there, they still wished for something more.

Where in that text does it state there is only 'one universe'? Stop making up your own narrative.

The core point is that in the conversation with Kamisato, the Magic Gods never actually denied the existence of parallel worlds."

If there's a passage stating there is 'only a single universe,' why don't you bring the original Japanese text?

I own the original copies of all the books and even uploaded that very page, yet I can't find that statement anywhere.

Are you trying to claim there is 'only one universe' just because the text mentioned 'the ends of the universe'?

 

[Piamma]

All you've done is try to make js06 seem like his mistranslated one sentence, and completely ignored the literal meaning of the next paragraph which quite literally explains why there are no other universes at all.

Parallel worlds don’t-…”
"I am explaining that the very premise that 'parallel worlds do not exist' in their conversation is false, precisely because JS06 completely mistranslated the key sentence.

That translation treats it as a complete negation, implying parallel worlds simply don't exist.

However, if you look at the original Japanese text '並行世界というのは――' (As for parallel worlds...), Nephthys begins the sentence, and Kamisato completes the thought not by saying they don't exist, but by confirming: 'Yeah, that's right. They don't exist infinitely.'

He is not saying they 'do not exist' period. You are concluding there is only a 'single universe' based on a flawed assumption derived from that mistranslated 'don't.' That line of reasoning is completely dead wrong. Is that so hard to understand?"

if this site has a translation check team, do you want me to hand over the raw text directly so we can ask them who is right?

 

[Piamma]

Not if in the same post you acknowledge another magic god, who actually knows more about the cosmology, agreeing with Kamisato that infinite parallel worlds don't exist. It's a very contradiction, and it only exists when you use a non canonical thing(the tangram) with a none canon statement or promotional statement for said non canonical crossover novel (othinus statement) with actual lore (the kamisato and nephthys convo)

It is true that for the Tangram to exist, infinite parallel worlds must exist.

You claimed this contradicts the Index lore, but that aspect has already been sufficiently explained in the side story.

According to the text: 'Furthermore, regarding the latter, a report by Academy City's investigation team states that "the Blue Stalker cannot be explained without acknowledging the existence of parallel worlds." The report speculated, "Is there a reverse side to the surface of the string?" or "Is the string actually made of a collection of countless threads?"'

The report essentially says that to account for the 'Blue Stalker,' we must acknowledge the general parallel world theory—not just our 'Rubber Band Theory.'

This leads to the assumption that the Virtual-On collaboration takes place in a specific instance where the general parallel universe theory (infinite parallel worlds) is uniquely applicable, implying that the main Index timeline strictly follows the Rubber Band Theory.

And here is the explanation of the Rubber Band Theory provided in that very work:

'The Rubber Band Theory states that while there is only one world, various parallel worlds are newly created by diverting at different points. It is similar to driving pegs into a pinball or pachinko machine and running a rubber band through them; even if the band stretches in all directions, it forms a single path. This is akin to saying history is singular but can be manipulated freely.'

It means that while the fundamental world is one, it forms multiple paths like a pachinko machine, effectively creating various new parallel worlds.
The text clearly states that parallel worlds are created even under the Rubber Band Theory, and this description aligns perfectly with Kamisato's explanation in New Testament Volume 13.

In other words, your claim of a strictly 'single universe' is nonsense that has already been debunked right here.

 

[Alsotime]

This passage signifies that even though the Magic Gods investigated the ends of the universe and all Phases, realizing nothing new existed there, they still wished for something more.

Where in that text does it state there is only 'one universe'? Stop making up your own narrative.

OH MY GOD

The more is another world. When Kamisato asks them if they wish for another world and then he goes on a tangent on how they literally searched through the entire cosmology for more but couldn’t find it. But then offers them something like “another world” in world rejecter. Thats literal confirmation that other worlds don’t exist

is true that for the Tangram to exist, infinite parallel worlds must exist.

You claimed this contradicts the Index lore, but that aspect has already been sufficiently explained in the side story.

According to the text: 'Furthermore, regarding the latter, a report by Academy City's investigation team states that "the Blue Stalker cannot be explained without acknowledging the existence of parallel worlds." The report speculated, "Is there a reverse side to the surface of the string?" or "Is the string actually made of a collection of countless threads?"'

THIS ISN'T CANON. stop mentioning it, full stop, it will never be acknowledged by the wiki.

 

[Piamma]

OH MY GOD

The more is another world. When Kamisato asks them if they wish for another world and then he goes on a tangent on how they literally searched through the entire cosmology for more but couldn’t find it. But then offers them something like “another world” in world rejecter. Thats literal confirmation that other worlds don’t exist

THIS ISN'T CANON. stop mentioning it, full stop, it will never be acknowledged by the wiki.

The text implies they wanted something that transcends the universe and all Phases, not just 'another single universe.'

Why are you distorting the author's words when you can't even read Japanese? So, would you care to bring me the specific part that states there is only a 'single universe'?

The Rubber Band Theory is not a setting unique to Virtual-On; the description is identical and applies equally to the main series. There is no reason for it not to be accepted.

You are denying solid evidence just to insist that there is only one universe, so let me give you even more.

'Things like the Earth, the universe, and the world are nothing more than a giant balloon. And a Magic God is a cactus in a flowerpot swaying on top of that balloon. It would confuse anyone. Once you know of their existence... you can never relax for 24 hours, wondering when that whimsical flowerpot might roll in.'

'In other words, you don't need to manipulate all Phases, all dimensions, and all elements just to distort the scenery. A magician who manipulates just one thing, carbon, can do it easily.'

This is the grammar of gradation (climax and anticlimax) that Kamachi frequently uses.

Anticlimax (decreasing scale): All Phases -> All Dimensions -> All Elements.

Climax (increasing scale): Earth -> Universe -> World.

If the 'World' were merely a single universe as you claim, there would be no reason to use that grammatical structure at all.

Furthermore, Kamachi is an author who strictly distinguishes between 'Universe' and 'World' and uses them differently depending on the context.

'You can't say that standing in the center is merely the result of your voluntary actions overlapping with some coincidence. What if someone egged you on and set you up? Yes, the very bastards who can destroy the definition of the incomprehensible scale known as the World with a single finger.'

Magic Gods are beings that destroy the definition of the incomprehensible scale known as the 'World' with a single finger.

Are you still going to claim that there is only a single universe after this?

 

[korea1234]

THIS ISN'T CANON. stop mentioning it, full stop, it will never be acknowledged by the wiki.

If what you say is true, then the mental out manga isn't canon either, so you shouldn't mention it.

 

[Alsotime]

If what you say is true, then the mental out manga isn't canon either, so you shouldn't mention it.

What are you going on aboout?

The Mental Out manga is a canon set even that happened in the timeline. The Virtual On Crossover is a non canon crossover.
The Mental Out manga also literally doesn't contradict canon, like the tanagram would

The Rubber Band Theory is not a setting unique to Virtual-On; the description is identical and applies equally to the main series. There is no reason for it not to be accepted.

We take the theory we see in the verse as it is explained in the verse. We don't take the expanded upon version that adds things that literally contradict the setting. Notice how you still can't reconile the whole, infinite parallel worlds tanagram statement with the whole "there isn't an infinite expanse of parallel worlds" Kamisato conversation?

Anticlimax (decreasing scale): All Phases -> All Dimensions -> All Elements.

Climax (increasing scale): Earth -> Universe -> World.

Right. The World, as a whole. Only has finite phases, 11 dimensions, and one timeline/universe.

Furthermore, Kamachi is an author who strictly distinguishes between 'Universe' and 'World' and uses them differently depending on the context.

Exactly, case by case basis. In this context, of the kamisato explaination. The world, as a whole, only has one universe, which is there problem

 

[korea1234]

I apologize for that part.

But you have to understand, that Railgun editor often makes absurd claims via anonymous Q&As (Marshmallow). He has said things like Uiharu could defeat the #1 and #2 Level 5s, or that Mugino would be Magic God-tier if she reached a 0-dimensional singularity.

My point is: since the person in charge ignores the original author and lacks credibility, any specific technical details found in those manga should be disregarded unless they are properly established in the main series.

If you search for it, you'll find it, but let's take a look anyway.
I am not denying the fundamental lore that the 11 dimensions are based on String Theory.
My point is that you cannot use the Mental Out manga—specifically that "ant analogy" depicting them as compressed dimensions—as valid evidence.
This is because when you compare it to how Curtana's dimensions are depicted in the main series, they are not compressed dimensions.

@Alsotime

 

[korea1234]

What are you going on aboout?

The Mental Out manga is a canon set even that happened in the timeline. The Virtual On Crossover is a non canon crossover.
The Mental Out manga also literally doesn't contradict canon, like the tanagram would

Please check the comment I just posted.

 

[Piamma]

Exactly, case by case basis. In this context, of the kamisato explaination. The world, as a whole, only has one universe, which is there problem

I have the full text in front of me. Point out exactly where you see that claims.None of the expressions you mentioned—like 'one universe,' 'single universe,' or '宇宙一個'—exist in the text at all.
Stop stubbornly insisting on something that isn't true.
If you keep this up, let's just submit it to the site's verification team for an official check.
Are you afraid to do that?

 

[Piamma]

Right. The World, as a whole. Only has finite phases, 11 dimensions, and one timeline/universe.

'timeline' does not equate to a single universe.Please, if you have any relevant source text, bring it out.
Did Marvel's 'Sacred Timeline' being a single line mean it was a single universe?
The same principle applies here.

 

[Alsotime]

I have the full text in front of me. Point out exactly where you see that claims.None of the expressions you mentioned—like 'one universe,' 'single universe,' or '宇宙一個'—exist in the text at all.

This is the problem.
You read "There are no infinite worlds" and go, "See there aren't infinite worlds, but there are other worlds" that second part is an inference.

If i have a room, and go, there aren't infinite balls in there, that's not me saying "There are multiple balls they just aren't infinite" that me saying exactly, "there aren't infinite balls"

When Curtana has a statement that it can cut through all whole number dimensions for example. That'ts not Kamachi saying there are infinite dimensions corresponding to each whole number. We take that statement with the multitude of statements that there are 11 dimensions, and then we form the coherent conclusion "Curtana can cut through all 11 dimensions"

You want explicit denial. You want me to have a scene where it goes "There is no parallel world" and if I idon't provide it, you use that as evidence for their being other worlds, but that evidence literally doesn't exist. We take what the story has shown us only, and go from there.

So what has the story shown us?

Well there's one universe. This universe is altered by religious phases that are nebulous in size. It exists in one timeline, which can be stretched to have hidden spaces (Like the new world Kamisato sends people too. Still apart of the movie (one timeline), just put in at a different frame so no one in the main frames of the film can interact with it.

That's it, until you can provide coherent, actual, canon evidence. You're point makes no sense

I apologize for that part.

But you have to understand, that Railgun editor often makes absurd claims via anonymous Q&As (Marshmallow). He has said things like Uiharu could defeat the #1 and #2 Level 5s, or that Mugino would be Magic God-tier if she reached a 0-dimensional singularity.

My point is: since the person in charge ignores the original author and lacks credibility, any specific technical details found in those manga should be disregarded unless they are properly established in the main series.

Right, but these are tweets vs whats in the actual spinoffs. In the actual spinoffs, nothing is contradicted. The Mental Out explanation isn't contradicting canon at all, it literally is explaining the 11dimensional theory teleportation has always worked on, in canon

 

[Piamma]

This is the problem.
You read "There are no infinite worlds" and go, "See there aren't infinite worlds, but there are other worlds" that second part is an inference.

If i have a room, and go, there aren't infinite balls in there, that's not me saying "There are multiple balls they just aren't infinite" that me saying exactly, "there aren't infinite balls"

When Curtana has a statement that it can cut through all whole number dimensions for example. That'ts not Kamachi saying there are infinite dimensions corresponding to each whole number. We take that statement with the multitude of statements that there are 11 dimensions, and then we form the coherent conclusion "Curtana can cut through all 11 dimensions"

You want explicit denial. You want me to have a scene where it goes "There is no parallel world" and if I idon't provide it, you use that as evidence for their being other worlds, but that evidence literally doesn't exist. We take what the story has shown us only, and go from there.

So what has the story shown us?

Well there's one universe. This universe is altered by religious phases that are nebulous in size. It exists in one timeline, which can be stretched to have hidden spaces (Like the new world Kamisato sends people too. Still apart of the movie (one timeline), just put in at a different frame so no one in the main frames of the film can interact with it.

That's it, until you can provide coherent, actual, canon evidence. You're point makes no sense

Fine. You insisted that parallel worlds don't exist, right?

'Also, this story is fiction located far outside the possibilities of the rubber-band parallel world theory, in a world where those two have not yet appeared among the countless existing other worlds. It has absolutely no relation to real people or organizations.'
This is directly from Kamachi's writing in the Ace Misaka Mikoto vs. Queen Shokuhou Misaki side story.

It literally says 'rubber-band parallel world theory.' How can you read that and say there are no parallel worlds?

Kamachi consistently mentions 'pachinko' and 'rubber bands' across Virtual-On, the side stories, and New Testament Vol. 13 to establish the existence of parallel worlds in the lore.
If you're going to deny all of that, the burden of proof is on you. Show me a single line that says there is 'only one universe.' That's the only logical way to refute this.

 

[Piamma]

When Curtana has a statement that it can cut through all whole number dimensions for example. That'ts not Kamachi saying there are infinite dimensions corresponding to each whole number. We take that statement with the multitude of statements that there are 11 dimensions, and then we form the coherent conclusion "Curtana can cut through all 11 dimensions"

You want explicit denial. You want me to have a scene where it goes "There is no parallel world" and if I idon't provide it, you use that as evidence for their being other worlds, but that evidence literally doesn't exist. We take what the story has shown us only, and go from there.

So what has the story shown us?

Well there's one universe. This universe is altered by religious phases that are nebulous in size. It exists in one timeline, which can be stretched to have hidden spaces (Like the new world Kamisato sends people too. Still apart of the movie (one timeline), just put in at a different frame so no one in the main frames of the film can interact with it.

That's it, until you can provide coherent, actual, canon evidence. You're point makes no sense

Stop trying to conflate this with the Curtana case; the situation is entirely different.

Regarding Curtana, it was vaguely stated as 'all integer dimensions.' Since Superstring Theory involves 11 dimensions and that's as far as the series has gone, let's assume the limit is the 11th dimension. Even if that point is debatable, the current topic is distinct.

Here, the definitions of 'world' and 'universe' are fundamentally different. The text discusses parallel world theory and does not deny its existence—it simply asserts that the number of parallel worlds is finite.

regarding your claim that Tangram's existence creates a contradiction: The parallel world theory needed for Tangram is the general theory, not the Rubber-band theory.

Kamachi only allowed both to coexist in the side story for the sake of the plot. In the main canon, however, strictly the Rubber-band Parallel World Theory applies.

Thus, the Magic Gods saying parallel worlds aren't infinite contradicts nothing.

 

[Alsotime]

Fine. You insisted that parallel worlds don't exist, right?


It literally says 'rubber-band parallel world theory.' How can you read that and say there are no parallel worlds?

Another, non canon story. Do you have any, canon stories or no?

 

[Piamma]

"To be sure, everything this time is outlandish, but I paid close attention to the setting and timeline so that—if you accept just one thing, the existence of the Reincarnation Goddess Sarina Garitina—it can fit into the chronology of the main Index series. Of course, that 'one thing' might be the most difficult part."

You keep spouting nonsense, insisting that an official side story written by Kamachi is 'non-canon' just to make your point work.

But as you can see, the author explicitly stated that he carefully designed the setting and timeline so it could fit into the main series, provided we acknowledge the Goddess's existence.

I get that you are desperate to lock this down as a 'single universe.'However, I am providing raw source material from both the main series and the side stories.

Meanwhile, the best you can offer is a line from Kamisato.And even that line never once mentions 'a single universe'—that interpretation is purely your own delusion.

Is there really any reason for me to keep engaging with you?I think it's better to let others see this conversation and judge for themselves.

 

[korea1234]

Another, non canon story. Do you have any, canon stories or no?

Ace Misaka Mikoto vs Queen Shokuhou Misaki!!

Ace Misaka Mikoto vs Queen Shokuhou Misaki!! (エース御坂美琴対クイーン食蜂操祈!!, Ace Misaka Mikoto vs Queen Shokuhou Misaki!!?), formally known as Toaru Majutsu no Index Gaiden: Ace Misaka Mikoto vs Queen Shokuhou Misaki!! (とある魔術の禁書目録外伝　エース御坂美琴対クイーン食蜂操祈!!, Toaru Majutsu no Index Gaiden: Ace Misaka Mikoto vs...

toarumajutsunoindex.fandom.com

It says the author wrote the novel themselves, and it's not even a crossover, so why is it not canon?

 

[Alsotime]

It's a know fact that the Ace of Tokiwadai vs Queen Misaki Shokuhou spinoff is literally a parody, literally the story itself acknowledges the things that are happening shouldn't be possible.

The catastrophe we all knew was coming has finally happened.

Academy City’s #3 – Railgun Misaka Mikoto.

Academy City’s #5 – Mental Out Shokuhou Misaki.

Those special girls are two of the seven Level 5s among the city’s 2.3 million residents and they stand at the peak of prestigious Tokiwadai Middle School.

Do they even need a reason?

In a way, this confrontation may have been inevitable.

This is a true direct clash between Level 5s, where rules, manners, morals, and taboos are meaningless.

They will settle this once and for all, even if it means destroying the world as we know it.

Both Level 5s will draw on their full specs with no concern for what happens to anyone else.

When the #3 and the #5 wield their full power against each other with no restraint or mercy, who will ultimately win?

There is only one way to find out.

Who will remain standing at the conclusion of this death match between Tokiwadai girls!!??

Now, then.

Ultra-destructive Misaka Mikoto had abandoned her humanity to become a lightning goddess with a glimpse of outer space showing through her body, but her thoughts were actually quite calm.

She had experienced this before, but her mind had a tendency to turn inwards while in lighting goddess mode.

And a question had occurred to her.

First of all, it was strange she had such free control of the lightning goddess. It hadn’t been so simple last time.

And furthermore…

(When is this happening timeline-wise?)

The most obvious thing out of place was Shokuhou Misaki’s Exterior. After it was nearly discovered during the Daihaseisai incident, the #5 had decided it would be too much of a pain to continue hiding it and managing it, so she had personally destroyed and abandoned it.

So was this before that?

But that didn’t work either. This included things that clearly happened after the Daihaseisai. For example, Kazakiri Hyouka may have fit in that part of the timeline, but the uncontrollable Fuse Kazakiri and the golden angel Kazakiri had come later – the latter during World War Three. At the very least, Tokiwadai hadn’t still been wearing their summer uniforms when those things happened.

This led to a simple conclusion: this Academy City couldn’t be real.

(Would the safest bet be a virtual reality? Academy City’s tech is supposed to be 20 or 30 years ahead of the outside world, so I could see that tech existing here. That would explain why Shokuhou has no qualms about destroying everything in her rampage. Even she wouldn’t take it this far otherwise.

Him making a write off "oh this takes place in some other parallel world" is literally just an excuse for the setting, quite literally nothing from this spoof is canon. It's a fun joke spinoff that lets him explore the full possibilties of Misaki's and Misaka's powers

 

[Piamma]

Another, non canon story. Do you have any, canon stories or no?

It's a know fact that the Ace of Tokiwadai vs Queen Misaki Shokuhou spinoff is literally a parody, literally the story itself acknowledges the things that are happening shouldn't be possible.

'If you accept just one thing, the existence of the Reincarnation Goddess Sarina Garitina, I paid close attention to the setting and timeline so it can be inserted into the main Index chronology.'

Are you just blatantly ignoring the author's statement that implies all other settings work fine as long as you accept the Goddess?

That statement means the exact opposite of what you think: excluding the Goddess, all the basic settings of the main Index series are adopted exactly as they are.

Who do you think you are? The author?

 

[Alsotime]

Are you just blatantly ignoring the author's statement that implies all other settings work fine as long as you accept the Goddess?

That statement means the exact opposite of what you think: excluding the Goddess, all the basic settings of the main Index series are adopted exactly as they are.

Who do you think you are? The author?

Right. He's making cosmological adjustments so that if you squint the story makes sense. It's the exact same thing he did with the tangram.

"Here's this spinoff story, here's this crossover. It uhm, works on parallel world theory, which can be handwaved to fit the setting."

The actual canon setting, without handwaving though, literally says it's not possible.

Like you are taking "I tried my best to make this fit as close to canon as possible" to "all the explanations here are canon" if it just fit canon, he wouldn't have to "try super hard to make it fit"

 

[Piamma]

Right. He's making cosmological adjustments so that if you squint the story makes sense. It's the exact same thing he did with the tangram.

"Here's this spinoff story, here's this crossover. It uhm, works on parallel world theory, which can be handwaved to fit the setting."

The actual canon setting, without handwaving though, literally says it's not possible.

"Far outside the possibilities of the rubber-band parallel world theory, among the countless existing other worlds..."

What Kamachi adjusted here is specifically the part about "countless existing other worlds" (referring to the Many-Worlds Theory—where numerous distinct worlds exist from the start, such as a universe using Chakra or a world with space civilizations, etc.).

He did not touch the Rubber-band Parallel World Theory at all; he adopted it exactly as it appears in the main series.

The Many-Worlds Theory and the Rubber-band Parallel World Theory are clearly distinct concepts, and I have pointed this out to you multiple times.

 

[Alsotime]

What Kamachi adjusted here is specifically the part about "countless existing other worlds" (referring to the Many-Worlds Theory—where numerous distinct worlds exist from the start, such as a universe using Chakra or a world with space civilizations, etc.).

He did not touch the Rubber-band Parallel World Theory at all; he adopted it exactly as it appears in the main series.

The Many-Worlds Theory and the Rubber-band Parallel World Theory are clearly distinct concepts, and I have pointed this out to you multiple times.

Regardless, both require infinite parallel worlds which explicitly don't exist in the setting

 

[Piamma]

Regardless, both require infinite parallel worlds which explicitly don't exist in the setting

It has never once been mentioned that the Rubber-band Parallel World Theory needs an infinite number of parallel universes.
If you claim otherwise, show me the proof right now.

 

[Alsotime]

It has never once been mentioned that the Rubber-band Parallel World Theory needs an infinite number of parallel universes.

Here are all the quotes, that explain the tangram. Since apparently I have to debunk non canon now.

One of the theories proposed by the Board of Directors is a parallel world, but this cannot be explained using our leading theory in which history acts like a rubber string.

The rubber string theory states that there is only one world and various parallel worlds are newly created when an alternate turn is taken at a branch. We picture it like placing pegs on a pinball or pachinko machine and passing the rubber string across the board so that it forms a single path even as the pegs bend it every which way, so it is much more like saying there is only one history and that it can be freely manipulated.

On the other hand, explaining the Blue Stalker requires a theory in which there are multiple worlds that exist literally parallel to each other.

The rubber string theory exists along a single line of history, but if we view that history as a flat rubber string, perhaps there is actually a bundle of countless strings. Or perhaps there is a reverse side to it like a storage tape.

This results in infinite paths

The Plajiner bud is demonstrating behavior very different from that of the original girl loved by the Tangram, but this too must be one option among the infinitely-branching "paths".

That the tangram is the center of

His eyelids trembled and his lips twisted, but he wanted even the tiniest shred of data now!!

——The Tangram is an existence that can be called the central point of all things.

(Is it talking about an observer who views the entire world? Sounds like someone important.)

——It is a single existence, yet it simultaneously holds alibis in all parallel worlds.

(To put it in terms of the quantum theory used in esper development, is this some ridiculous being that shares all results of the different "ifs" that are influenced by observation? If it can choose the individual outcomes, then it's sounding something like a god.)

——Successfully contacting it will place the entire world in the palm of your hand. You will be able to manipulate time, causality, destiny, and all such unreachable things.

Just to clarify again. This theory always results in infinite worlds

“It’s useless. The Tangram is the highest being that binds all dimensions together, but it also chooses who can contact it. Those who are rejected are repelled and vanish into one of the infinite parallel worlds. And they are swapped out by someone from that world. You are not qualified. As far as I know, only the Plajiner girl has ever accomplished that.”

NOW HERE IS CANON.
I'll use raws since you care more about that.

"Heikō suru sekai ga mugen ni aru wake janai"

“There are not an infinite number of parallel worlds.”

Here's the rest of what he says.

“Yes, the world is ultimately a straight line like the rubber string nailed onto pachinko machines. There is no infinite expanse of parallel worlds. But at the same time, the world is a rubber string. It can stretch or contract like time or space. The world we know has a surprising amount of waste. It’s like using only ten frames when using sixty fps film. No one will notice if you stick some subliminal footage in using two or three of the leftover frames. This is what you wished for, isn’t it? You Magic Gods wished for this even though you knew it could never come true. You checked the farthest reaches of the universe and all of the piled-up phases and you realized there was nothing new left. But if it was possible, you wished to leave behind this troublesome world and spread your wings in a new world no one else knows of.”

These differences can not be reconiled

This statement

The rubber string theory states that there is only one world and various parallel worlds are newly created when an alternate turn is taken at a branch. We picture it like placing pegs on a pinball or pachinko machine and passing the rubber string across the board so that it forms a single path even as the pegs bend it every which way, so it is much more like saying there is only one history and that it can be freely manipulated.

Is not the same as this one at all

“Yes, the world is ultimately a straight line like the rubber string nailed onto pachinko machines. There is no infinite expanse of parallel worlds. But at the same time, the world is a rubber string. It can stretch or contract like time or space

They literally directly contradict each other

 

[korea1234]

It's a know fact that the Ace of Tokiwadai vs Queen Misaki Shokuhou spinoff is literally a parody, literally the story itself acknowledges the things that are happening shouldn't be possible.


Him making a write off "oh this takes place in some other parallel world" is literally just an excuse for the setting, quite literally nothing from this spoof is canon. It's a fun joke spinoff that lets him explore the full possibilties of Misaki's and Misaka's powers

As far as I know, even if a story's plot isn't canon, its setting can still be canon. Isn't that the case with To Aru as well?


----------------

"Right, it is like stretching a rubber band across a pachinko board filled with nails; in the end, it is just a single line.

-----------------------------

In fact, the rubber band theory was even discussed in ‘To Aru NT Volume 13’.

 

[Alsotime]

As far as I know, even if a story's plot isn't canon, its setting can still be canon. Isn't that the case with To Aru as well?

No

In fact, the rubber band theory was even discussed in ‘To Aru NT Volume 13’.

The rubber band theory in canon doesn't create a parallel world every time the rubber band (timeline) is stretched. The rubber band theory in Virutal On is merging Hugh Everitt's many world interpretation with toaru rubber band theory. That's literally it.

When the rubber band (timeline) is stretched in canon. You try to find parts of it that's not used. It's finiite but it's quite big so you can sneak things in it.

There is no infinite expanse of parallel worlds. But at the same time, the world is a rubber string. It can stretch or contract like time or space. The world we know has a surprising amount of waste. It’s like using only ten frames when using sixty fps film. No one will notice if you stick some subliminal footage in using two or three of the leftover frames.

Virtual On's version is the opposite. If you alter anything, a parallel world is made immediately

The rubber string theory states that there is only one world and various parallel worlds are newly created when an alternate turn is taken at a branch.

 

[korea1234]

No

The rubber band theory in canon doesn't create a parallel world every time the rubber band (timeline) is stretched. The rubber band theory in Virutal On is merging Hugh Everitt's many world interpretation with toaru rubber band theory. That's literally it.

I'm not talking about Virtual On, but Ace Misaka Mikoto vs. Queen Shokuhou Misaki.

 

[Alsotime]

I'm not talking about Virtual On, but Ace Misaka Mikoto vs. Queen Shokuhou Misaki.

Oh. Well the point still stands, it quite literally doesn't fit canon, and the "parallel world" reason is just an excuse to have a non canon story.

 

[Piamma]

No

The rubber band theory in canon doesn't create a parallel world every time the rubber band (timeline) is stretched. The rubber band theory in Virutal On is merging Hugh Everitt's many world interpretation with toaru rubber band theory. That's literally it.

When the rubber band (timeline) is stretched in canon. You try to find parts of it that's not used. It's finiite but it's quite big so you can sneak things in it.

Virtual On's version is the opposite. If you alter anything, a parallel world is made immediately

It seems you fundamentally lack the ability to distinguish between 'infinite' and 'countless.'

'The rubber string theory exists along a single line of history, but if we view that history as a flat rubber string, perhaps there is actually a bundle of countless strings. Or perhaps there is a reverse side to it like a storage tape.'

Read the text properly.It clearly says 'countless.' Where exactly does it say 'infinite' in that text?

This actually aligns perfectly with the statement in New Testament Volume 13 that the worlds are not infinite.

I told you already, didn't I?That is merely an infinite parallel universe theory adapted specifically to justify the existence of Tangram.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the Rubber-band Theory.

Fundamentally, the Rubber-band Theory only specifies that the worlds are not infinite.You are arbitrarily swapping 'countless' with 'infinite' and confusing the two meanings.

To explain the Blue Stalker, you literally need a separate theory where multiple worlds exist parallel to each other.The concepts used to explain Blue Stalker and Tangram are the 'Many-Worlds Interpretation' and traditional parallel world theories.The parallel universe theory adopted by the main Index series is the Rubber-band Parallel World Theory.

The two are clearly different. Do not confuse them.

 

[Alsotime]

It seems you fundamentally lack the ability to distinguish between 'infinite' and 'countless.'

'The rubber string theory exists along a single line of history, but if we view that history as a flat rubber string, perhaps there is actually a bundle of countless strings. Or perhaps there is a reverse side to it like a storage tape.'

Read the text properly.It clearly says 'countless.' Where exactly does it say 'infinite' in that text?

This actually aligns perfectly with the statement in New Testament Volume 13 that the worlds are not infinite.

I told you already, didn't I?That is merely an infinite parallel universe theory adapted specifically to justify the existence of Tangram.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the Rubber-band Theory.

Fundamentally, the Rubber-band Theory only specifies that the worlds are not infinite.You are arbitrarily swapping 'countless' with 'infinite' and confusing the two meanings.

To explain the Blue Stalker, you literally need a separate theory where multiple worlds exist parallel to each other.The concepts used to explain Blue Stalker and Tangram are the 'Many-Worlds Interpretation' and traditional parallel world theories.The parallel universe theory adopted by the main Index series is the Rubber-band Parallel World Theory.

The two are clearly different. Do not confuse them.

One that wasn't posted in my quote but anyways. Here's the problem.
Here is the quote we get in canon, mind you.

“Yes, the world is ultimately a straight line like the rubber string nailed onto pachinko machines. There is no infinite expanse of parallel worlds. But at the same time, the world is a rubber string. It can stretch or contract like time or space. The world we know has a surprising amount of waste. It’s like using only ten frames when using sixty fps film. No one will notice if you stick some subliminal footage in using two or three of the leftover frames. This is what you wished for, isn’t it? You Magic Gods wished for this even though you knew it could never come true. You checked the farthest reaches of the universe and all of the piled-up phases and you realized there was nothing new left. But if it was possible, you wished to leave behind this troublesome world and spread your wings in a new world no one else knows of.”

There is no statement of the rubber band making a new world everytime something happens, at all. The whole premise fundamentally doesn't even make sense. If it made new worlds, why were the magic gods even suprised about world rejecter's world existing in this one timeline? Why didn't she interuppt him in go "Oh well, everytime I contrast the timeline, I make another universe" no. She's stunned that even the frames can be used.

Now here is the explanation from the non canon game, which changes the explanation.

The Blue Stalker uses technology from a system entirely different from ours and has widely permeated Academy City’s center stage via Virtual-On. (We made a few different attempts to artificially end that trend, but they all ended in failure. For details, refer to the report on that issue.) We doubt all of this popped up overnight by coincidence, so the Blue Stalker must have been involved in some way.

One of the theories proposed by the Board of Directors is a parallel world, but this cannot be explained using our leading theory in which history acts like a rubber string.

The rubber string theory states that there is only one world and various parallel worlds are newly created when an alternate turn is taken at a branch. We picture it like placing pegs on a pinball or pachinko machine and passing the rubber string across the board so that it forms a single path even as the pegs bend it every which way, so it is much more like saying there is only one history and that it can be freely manipulated.

On the other hand, explaining the Blue Stalker requires a theory in which there are multiple worlds that exist literally parallel to each other.

The rubber string theory exists along a single line of history, but if we view that history as a flat rubber string, perhaps there is actually a bundle of countless strings. Or perhaps there is a reverse side to it like a storage tape.

That is enough discussion of theories and philosophy for now, but the point is that the Blue Stalker surpasses all of that.

He comes from a world where what we call Virtual-On is perfectly normal.

In this non canon universe, there rubber band theory has parallel worlds get created when something happens, and it still doesn't agree with the idea that the tangram requires to work, but the tangram works off the second one. So in this non canon story, the rubber string theory isn't even true.

So. finally, until you can like post canonical evidence of parallel worlds from the actual story or officially canon mangas, or anything. I don't agree with your point, and it's not supported by canon lol
Kamisato's whole gimmick of do you wish for another world, wouldn't even be met with disagreement from Nephyts.

 

[Piamma]

There is no statement of the rubber band making a new world everytime something happens, at all. The whole premise fundamentally doesn't even make sense. If it made new worlds, why were the magic gods even suprised about world rejecter's world existing in this one timeline? Why didn't she interuppt him in go "Oh well, everytime I contrast the timeline, I make another universe" no. She's stunned that even the frames can be used.

Don't try to turn this into an emotional argument.

The Magic Gods were shocked because a 'New World' (World Rejecter) existed despite their complete knowledge of the universe and all mythological and religious Phases.They were not surprised because it exists on a 'single timeline.'

If you have any text supporting your claim, bring it right now.

It doesn't matter whether you admit it or not.I have already presented sufficient evidence and source materials.Meanwhile, you still haven't provided a shred of proof for a 'single universe' and are just beating around the bush.

The final judgment will be made by others and the CRT.

 

[Piamma]

One that wasn't posted in my quote but anyways. Here's the problem.
Here is the quote we get in canon, mind you.

There is no statement of the rubber band making a new world everytime something happens, at all. The whole premise fundamentally doesn't even make sense. If it made new worlds, why were the magic gods even suprised about world rejecter's world existing in this one timeline? Why didn't she interuppt him in go "Oh well, everytime I contrast the timeline, I make another universe" no. She's stunned that even the frames can be used.

Now here is the explanation from the non canon game, which changes the explanation.

In this non canon universe, there rubber band theory has parallel worlds get created when something happens, and it still doesn't agree with the idea that the tangram requires to work, but the tangram works off the second one. So in this non canon story, the rubber string theory isn't even true.

So. finally, until you can like post canonical evidence of parallel worlds from the actual story or officially canon mangas, or anything. I don't agree with your point, and it's not supported by canon lol
Kamisato's whole gimmick of do you wish for another world, wouldn't even be met with disagreement from Nephyts.

To summarize the points you failed to refute and failed to provide evidence for:

1. The Rubber-band Theory requires a 'countless' number of parallel worlds, not an 'infinite' one. You initially claimed it needed an infinite number of parallel universes, but you changed your tune only after I brought the source text. Of course, you never presented any text yourself.

2. The claim that 'only a single universe exists.' I have repeatedly asked you to bring the source text for this, but you never have. Am I wrong? In Index, 'World' and 'Universe' are used distinctly. I explained that Magic Gods are beings capable of destroying the 'World'—a much vaster scope—with a snap of their fingers.

Do you actually have any evidence to refute this? I told you time and again to bring the text, but it seems you haven't brought it even once.

At this point, what is the use of me talking to you any further? It would be better to just let others judge this quickly.

If anyone wants to create a new CRT or has questions, please leave them here.

 

[Alsotime]

Don't try to turn this into an emotional argument.

The Magic Gods were shocked because a 'New World' (World Rejecter) existed despite their complete knowledge of the universe and all mythological and religious Phases.They were not surprised because it exists on a 'single timeline.'

If you have any text supporting your claim, bring it right now.

What do you mean emotional argument?
This paragraph alone makes it very clear other worlds don't really exist in this setting.

She was smiling. “Heh…heh heh. It’ll finally be over. I’ll finally be freed. I…I…!! Nephthys, this is amazing! I…ahh…I’ve never felt so relieved!! Ah ha ha ha ha!!” Something inside her was clearly absorbed, the size of her body visibly shrank, and she became nothing but the external skin. But that was what made it so strange. It was just like how certain wasps numbed their prey’s nerves before feasting on them. The mismatch between the external phenomenon and the bliss in her mind released a joyful voice from the girl. “A new world.” The brown-haired boy readily spoke while crushing Niang-Niang like a milk carton. “My right hand is a collection of such dreams. I believe its name was…yes, World Rejecter.”

to which she responds the thing you keep saying is mistranslated.

「……、できない。できっこない。だって、並行世界というのは――」 "That's impossible. Because, parallel worlds are—"

「並行する世界が無限にある訳じゃない」 "It doesn't mean that parallel worlds exist infinitely."

and he finished with this.

“Yes, the world is ultimately a straight line like the rubber string nailed onto pachinko machines. There is no infinite expanse of parallel worlds. But at the same time, the world is a rubber string. It can stretch or contract like time or space. The world we know has a surprising amount of waste. It’s like using only ten frames when using sixty fps film. No one will notice if you stick some subliminal footage in using two or three of the leftover frames. This is what you wished for, isn’t it? You Magic Gods wished for this even though you knew it could never come true. You checked the farthest reaches of the universe and all of the piled-up phases and you realized there was nothing new left. But if it was possible, you wished to leave behind this troublesome world and spread your wings in a new world no one else knows of.”

like this very clearly means parallel worlds aren't a thing

 

[korea1234]

Oh. Well the point still stands, it quite literally doesn't fit canon, and the "parallel world" reason is just an excuse to have a non canon story.

It suddenly occurred to me—what do you think of the Aleisters with 1,083,028,670 possibilities?

 

[XDragnoir]

Sorry for the wait.

I apologize for that part.

But you have to understand, that Railgun editor often makes absurd claims via anonymous Q&As (Marshmallow). He has said things like Uiharu could defeat the #1 and #2 Level 5s, or that Mugino would be Magic God-tier if she reached a 0-dimensional singularity.

My point is: since the person in charge ignores the original author and lacks credibility, any specific technical details found in those manga should be disregarded unless they are properly established in the main series.

No, I understand that perfectly, you have to understand we don't take everything the authors says at face value, especially in cases where it talks about who would win stuff and stuff said outside of the source material, again, there's a hierarchy of statements, contradictions can be ignored.

As you mentioned, there is a possibility that the two concepts are different. Therefore, you still cannot apply that dimensional scaling to the entire series based solely on the depiction of compressed dimensions in Mental Out.

What are you trying to say here? This just doesn't line up.

Here is one approach I’ve considered:

The baseline physical world already encompasses various physical and mathematical laws—such as 11-dimensional, String Theory and Hilbert Space theory—along with the Many-Worlds Interpretation or Parallel Universe theory. My idea is that Alice utilizes these quantum theories as the very laws of Wonderland to expand the physical world itself.

Has Hilbert Space ever been brought up in the series or are we going full headcanon now? Why is Alice even a part of this discussion.

On top of that, there is the additional expansion into the "Hidden Phase" which transcends the concepts of dimensions, space, and time.

When was it stated that the Hidden Phase "transcends space and time"? The raws actually say that?

Because simply being a void isn't worth anything and given the Hidden Phase is still a Phase, I really doubt it has any actual form of transcendence.

And I am well aware of the quote saying the Hidden Phase doesn't have the concepts of time and space, but that's different from what you're claiming.

These are the upgrade paths I have in mind, but what direction do you envision for further upgrades?

Just give me the raws and translation for the Curtana stuff, including the NT22R one about killing Aiwass.

That will be an all or nothing.

Even if that direct expansion doesn't apply, we still have the structure of the "Emanation World," which contains the physical world

Also, this one has barely any info so far, it just doesn't help in any way.

Four Worlds stuff even has anti-feats rn before even getting any feats to sustain any kind of high tier upgrade for it.