Ben 10/Gen Rex: Metaphysical additions [Staff Vote Needed]

[Hellformer]

Wait. The Meta Nanites wouldn't be concept. To be a concept, they would have to be the concepts that govern objects, not merely control them.

Govern: to influence or control somebody/something.

White Knight: In Layman's terms It's the god code. Each of these meta-nanites have a cypher written inside, that gives them jurisdiction over different building blocks of the universe -- matter, antimatter, gravity, magnetism. With the complete code, you can control them, and through them, you control everything.

Rex: Turns out pretty far these little machines could control the very fabric of the universe but they would need a master control nanite to program all the others and tell them what to do; energy, gravity, time, space, elemental, mechanical, all the things that would make the universe run combined together they would pretty much make you a god.

All of the things mentioned, such as space, time, and elements, existed prior to the creation of the nanites, proving that the nanites do not govern them. If they do not govern or link to these elements, then whether the universe exists or not shouldn't affect the Meta Nanites, conversely, whether the Meta Nanites exist or not shouldn't affect reality either.

Yes they did but I'm not claiming that the meta nanites rule space time of the entire verse though? I'm simply limiting them to timestream which is more than Universal and hence, should suffice the standards of this wiki.

Above all, Meta Nanites aren't abstract, they are physical lil machines, unlike True Names.

I'm not claiming the machines to be abstract, White Knight says that there is a "cypher" written inside those machines which gives the user control over everything (statement is present right above).
And even then, information is by default abstract as per the wiki.

Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept, thought, or information.

 

[Reiner04]

Yes they did but I'm not claiming that the meta nanites rule space time of the entire verse though? I'm simply limiting them to timestream which is more than Universal and hence suffices the standards of this wiki.

Yeah but merely controlling is just not enough, not even close. Spacetime, matter of even rex universe existed before even meta nanites were created proving that their existence is independent of meta nanites and thus meta nanites do not govern them but merely can control them.

I'm not claiming the machines to be abstract, White Knight says that there is a "cypher" written inside those machines which gives the user control over everything (statement is present above). And even then information is by default abstract as per the wiki.

They can have info type 2 w/o being info themselves. Its just means they can manipulate information of the verse but they are not information themselves considering they are not abstract.

 

[Hellformer]

Yeah but merely controlling is just not enough, not even close. Spacetime, matter of even rex universe existed before even meta nanites were created proving that their existence is independent of meta nanites and thus meta nanites do not govern them but merely can control them.

You can have characters who can create concepts to govern the reality, regardless of its type. There's no such explicit statement which says that such a case cannot happen.

1. Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

Nothing over here says that type 1 concepts cannot be created after the object they govern, otherwise you cannot have type 1 conceptual creation at all.

They can have info type 2 w/o being info themselves. Its just means they can manipulate information of the verse but they are not information themselves considering they are not abstract.

Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information that serves as a fundamental building block of reality. This information is shown to compose reality similar to how data underlies a video game world, code defines the rules of a simulation or in a fashion equally fundamental to these examples. This may allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality.

As per Caesar, they programmed the meta nanites, which means they do fall under information.
Now the cipher is programmed in a way to control several aspects of the timestream + Rex interacts with that info mentally (not physically) which also proves that the information is abstract and not physical.

 

[Reiner04]

cannot be created after the object they govern, otherwise you cannot have type 1 conceptual creation at all.

Objects even existing prior to its supposed concept itself goes against what concepts are. Chsnges made in concept affects the object and if concept doesn't exist then object must not too, thats the type of relation object and concept has, for type 1, objects are dependent on concept and for type 2, concepts and objects, as whole, are interdependent.

As per Caesar, they programmed the meta nanites, which means they do fall under information.
Now the cipher is programmed in a way to control several aspects of the timestream + Rex interacts with those nanites mentally (not physically) which also proves that the information is abstract and not physical.

Cipher was explained as the programm that gives meta nanites power over spacetime and everything, not that cipher itself is information of everything. Both are different.

 

[Hellformer]

Objects even existing prior to its supposed concept itself goes against what concepts are. Chsnges made in concept affects the object and if concept doesn't exist then object must not too, thats the type of relation object and concept has, for type of, objects are dependent on concept and for type 2, concepts and objects, as whole, are interdependent.

You're repeating the same thing but I've asked you where exactly is that stated in the explaination of type 1 concepts (I've quoted the entire explanation. Otherwise type 1 conceptual creation shouldn't even exist.

Cipher was explained as the programm that gives meta nanites power over spacetime and everything, not that cipher itself is information of everything. Both are different.

White Knight: In Layman's terms It's the god code. Each of these meta-nanites have a cypher written inside, that gives them jurisdiction over different building blocks of the universe

Cypher itself gives control over building blocks of the universe sooooo

 

[Reiner04]

Youre repeating the same thing but I've asked you where exactly is that stated in the explaination of type 1 concepts. Otherwise type 1 conceptual creation shouldn't even exist.

To shape something you must exist with or prior to it. Meta nanites didn't shape or created anything. They merely control it.

These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself.

Cypher itself gives control over building blocks of the universe sooooo

Well, thus they have info manp type 2.

These characters can manipulate information that serves as a fundamental building block of reality.

 

[Hellformer]

To shape something you must exist with or prior to it. Meta nanites didn't shape or created anything. They merely control it.

To Shape: to influence the way in which something develops; to cause something to have a particular form or nature.

The nanites grants jurisdiction and complete control over everything.
Even then, that does not answer my question. I asked you to prove this from wiki.

You're repeating the same thing but I've asked you where exactly is that stated in the explaination of type 1 concepts (I've quoted the entire explanation. Otherwise type 1 conceptual creation shouldn't even exist.

Well, thus they have info manp type 2.

If a concept controls a certain thing, it is labelled as concept of that thing. Similarly if an information controls something, such as, if a specific nanite controls gravity, it has information of gravity. That's basic understanding of metaphysical aspects. If you want, you can confirm it from a knowledgeable staff by tagging him/her.

 

[Hellformer]

During the original Nanite Project, the project scientists accidentally discovered the Dominion Code.
@Reiner04

 

[Hellformer]

Currently I'm traveling, which is why I gave the wiki statement instead of clip. But the meta nanites were discovered, not created so what's your stance now?

 

[Reiner04]

The nanites grants jurisdiction and complete control over everything.
Even then, that does not answer my question. I asked you to prove this from wiki.

To shape when pulled from dictionary that doesn't have any context of what is being talked about can mean myraid of things, after all its just a word. But in the context of definition of concept it specifically talking about the abstract that defines its object in its entirety, whzt property it has, what function does it serves, etc. Its more than merely controlling them. Its the object's everything. Like how DT explained here:
Post in thread 'Concept must necessarily be a Quiddity' https://vsbattles.com/threads/concept-must-necessarily-be-a-quiddity.183350/post-7278722

Hope this one clarifies.

If a concept controls a certain thing, it is labelled as concept of that thing. Similarly if an information controls something, such as, if a specific nanite controls gravity, it has information of gravity. That's basic understanding of metaphysical aspects. If you want, you can confirm it from a knowledgeable staff by tagging him/her.

Concept do not control something, they govern and define them, like circleness for circle, however, that also doesn't mean concept cannot control its objects but thats not a criteria. To control and manipulate concept itself is called conceptual manipulation.

 

[Hellformer]

To shape when pulled from dictionary that doesn't have any context of what is being talked about can mean myraid of things, after all its just a word. But in the context of definition of concept it specifically talking about the abstract that defines its object in its entirety, whzt property it has, what function does it serves, etc. Its more than merely controlling them. Its the object's everything. Like how DT explained here:
Post in thread 'Concept must necessarily be a Quiddity' https://vsbattles.com/threads/concept-must-necessarily-be-a-quiddity.183350/post-7278722

Hope this one clarifies.

I think, along with the example currently used for concepts, it's more to the point to say they are "property givers". A concept makes all things participating in it have a property (this property could of course just be "the property to be a tree" for the concepts of trees)

The meta nanites have shown to alter the property of thing that they manipulate. For example Xanubian with temporal nanite could stop and rewind time. The natural property of time is to flow in one direction, but he could rewind it around him which changes its ordinary property.
This is textbook CM as per DT himself so what else do you need?

Concept do not control something, they govern and define them, like circleness for circle, however, that also doesn't mean concept cannot control its objects but thats not a criteria. To control and manipulate concept itself is called conceptual manipulation.

Bruh at this point its just repetition, already gone through the exact same argument over here.

 

[Reiner04]

The meta nanites have shown to alter the property of thing that they manipulate. For example Xanubian with temporal nanite could stop and rewind time. The natural property of time is to flow, but he could rewind it around him which changes its ordinary property.

Property givers and Property has difference. If manipulating Time or flow of it was concept manp, All time manipulators must have had it on profiles. Circle is the property of object, you can make circle square by cutting it doesn't mean you have concept manp, you have to manipulate Circleness itself to get concept manp.

Bruh at this point its just repetition, already gone through the exact same argument over here.

None of them honestly answers what i am asking for, so i am trying to explain what concepts are and what not. Meta nanites only merely controls the objects not govern or define or shape them.

 

[Reiner04]

Property givers and Property has difference. If manipulating Time or flow of it was concept manp, All time manipulators must have had it on profiles. Circle is the property of object, you can make circle square by cutting it doesn't mean you have concept manp, you have to manipulate Circleness itself to get concept manp.

Also to add on. Meta Nanite is not a property giver, atleast that must be clear now given time had property of time, circle had property of circle even before Meta Nanite was created. You have to exist prior or before the object to give its property and define it.

 

[Hellformer]

Property givers and Property has difference. If manipulating Time or flow of it was concept manp, All time manipulators must have had it on profiles. Circle is the property of object, you can make circle square by cutting it doesn't mean you have concept manp, you have to manipulate Circleness itself to get concept manp.

That's exactly where you aren't understanding.
Controlling time = Time Manipulation
Controlling time via an abstraction that is Universal and independent = Type 1 concept.

None of them honestly answers what i am asking for, so i am trying to explain what concepts are and what not. Meta nanites only merely controls the objects not govern or define or shape them.

Bruh I've already explained it. Sorry but you don't seem to have a good understanding on what concepts are (not saying I'm an expert). But I would rely on other knowledgeable staffs instead.

 

[Reiner04]

Bruh I've already explained it. Sorry but you don't seem to have a good understanding on what concepts are (not saying I'm an expert). But I would rely on other knowledgeable staffs instead.

Alr i suppose, I have to disagree with Meta nanites being conceptual and Alpha rune being Type 1 concept.

 

[Hellformer]

Will wait for knowledgeable staffs by then

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Shouldn't Fundamental Forces are Conceptual Type 1 or 2?
It shape/govern that the universe/timestream:

Turns out pretty far these little machines could control the very fabric of the universe but they would need a master control nanite program all the others and tell them what to do: energy, gravity, time, space, elemental, mechanical, all the things that would make the universe run combined together they would pretty much make you a god

In Layman's terms It's the god code. Each of these meta-nanites have a cypher written inside, that gives them jurisdiction over different building blocks of the universe--matter, antimatter, gravity, magnetism... With the complete code, you can control them, and through them, you control everything.

Manipulate it, can cause the control over the universe itself:

In Layman's terms It's the god code. Each of these meta-nanites have a cypher written inside, that gives them jurisdiction over different building blocks of the universe--matter, antimatter, gravity, magnetism... With the complete code, you can control them, and through them, you control everything.

It exists before the universe/timestream, as it's created the universe/timestream.

Shouldn't this make Fundamental Forces are Conceptual Type 2?

 

[Hellformer]

Shouldn't Fundamental Forces are Conceptual Type 1 or 2?
It shape/govern that the universe/timestream:


Manipulate it, can cause the control over the universe itself:

It exists before the universe/timestream, as it's created the universe/timestream.

Shouldn't this make Fundamental Forces are Conceptual Type 2?

The cyphers that control the aspects of timestream are textbook type 1 concepts.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

The cyphers that control the aspects of timestream are textbook type 1 concepts.

I'm better sure fundamental aspects should be also Type 2 concepts.

 

[Hellformer]

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[Hellformer]

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[Hellformer]

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[Hellformer]

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[ABSOLUTE-ABSTRACT-KING]

Why Ben 10 upgrades/ additions turn dead while downgrades/ removals get concluded immediately?

 

[Hellformer]

Why Ben 10 upgrades/ additions turn dead while downgrades/ removals get concluded immediately?

If it were a downgrade CRT, it would've been spammed with "Agree FRA" by staffs who I wouldn't even call.

 

[SomebodyData]

Yes they did but I'm not claiming that the meta nanites rule space time of the entire verse though? I'm simply limiting them to timestream which is more than Universal and hence, should suffice the standards of this wiki.

I mean yes, but the way it’s being framed is clearly a cop out using the standards of the wiki to hide an obvious issue here.

If you’re trying to limit the concepts to the timestream because they clearly don’t precede what they’re supposed to be concepts of when you take the whole cosmology into account, you’re just hiding a clear and extreme contradiction.

If it were a downgrade CRT, it would've been spammed with "Agree FRA" by staffs who I wouldn't even call.

So much to unpack with what you just said. If you’re trying to only get people who would agree with you, including staff, onto the thread - that’s just manipulating the agreement system the wiki has, intentionally or not.

 

[Hellformer]

I mean yes, but the way it’s being framed is clearly a cop out using the standards of the wiki to hide an obvious issue here.

If you’re trying to limit the concepts to the timestream because they clearly don’t precede what they’re supposed to be concepts of when you take the whole cosmology into account, you’re just hiding a clear and extreme contradiction.

That argument stems from Reiner assuming that Meta nanites were created (I myself assumed he's correct), but I've cleared it up by proving that they were discovered. After which he didn't raise that issue.
Please do let me know your exact vote so that I consider it accordingly.

So much to unpack with what you just said. If you’re trying to only get people who would agree with you, including staff, onto the thread - that’s just manipulating the agreement system the wiki has, intentionally or not.

I'm not forcing anyone to agree, just saying what I've seen in CRTs as long as I've been active on this site. Downgrade CRTs of certain verses "generally" seems to get FRA trained with staffs, while the upgrade/addition related CRTs take months to get accepted. Hope you understand the intent.

 

[SomebodyData]

That argument stems from Reiner assuming that Meta nanites were created (I myself assumed he's correct), but I've cleared it up by proving that they were discovered. After which he didn't raise that issue.
Please do let me know your exact vote so that I consider it accordingly.

Fair enough, if they were merely discovered at that point, then there isn’t any problem here. I’m in agreement with the revisions.

I'm not forcing anyone to agree, just saying what I've seen in CRTs as long as I've been active on this site. Downgrade CRTs of certain verses "generally" seems to get FRA trained with staffs, while the upgrade/addition related CRTs take months to get accepted. Hope you understand the intent.

Alright, if that’s what you intended to say.

 

[Hellformer]

Fair enough, if they were merely discovered at that point, then there isn’t any problem here. I’m in agreement with the revisions.



Alright, if that’s what you intended to say.

Thank you very much

 

[Hellformer]

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[Hellformer]

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[Hellformer]

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[ABSOLUTE-ABSTRACT-KING]

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[Hellformer]

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[SomebodyData]

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Any staff member you think is knowledgeable about the verse(s) or topic you want me to ping?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Any staff member you think is knowledgeable about the verse(s) or topic you want me to ping?

The knowledgeable and supporter staff for the verse are @Reiner04 and @Firestorm808

 

[Hellformer]

Any staff member you think is knowledgeable about the verse(s) or topic you want me to ping?

Firestorm (knowledgeable on verse) and Planck69 would work.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Firestorm808 and @Planck69 ; when either of you guys are free that would be greatly appreciated