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Yes, but I think that we should let @Elizio33 evaluate the suggested DeMatteis cosmology merger first.
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Marvel cosmology revision (Update and merging J.M. DeMatteis and main one)
- Thread starter Progrev228
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Wouldn't that make any being that exists within the multiverse High Outer? Just byproxy of existing in the multiverse
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Likely yes, since conscience of single being can duplicate structure of multiverse. And bigger than lesser hierarchy\microverse wich have same structure.
But this for another thread since we decided to firstly megre cosmologies and then do tiering.
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When is the cosmology merge going to happen? I’m seriously so excited, I’m about to scream.
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Hmm. I think we need to be careful if we want to merge DeMatteis' cosmology with the main cosmology, because Marvel's cosmology has evolved a lot over the years and characters like Oblivion are not the same as they were back then. The Oblivion Void is no longer truly infinite, because Eternity has taken so much space from him that he could no longer house his sister, Death, and Oblivion can be killed apparently, as he was slaughtered by Hadad. Heck, even the One Above All can be corrupted or absorbed now. Yes, the Storm comics (2025) indirectly canonized the encounter between Thanos, Adam Warlock, and the One Above All in Jim Starlin comics.
A merger would be possible, but caution is necessary, that's all.
A merger would be possible, but caution is necessary, that's all.
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UUUUGH. I hate those Storm comics and how badly they damaged the cosmology.
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Yeah me too and the Hulk Comics doesn't help either.
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I don't like them at all either. They act like a wild bull in a porcelain shop, and also seem to be written as a deliberate anti-Thor troll-fic.
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Well, it was vaguely referenced at least, and that was not Starlin's worst final story in which Thanos illogically replace Above-All-Others.
I think that is seems too incompatible personally.
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I wouldn't say it's anti-Thor (he doesn't really appear in the series tbh), but it butchers the cosmologyI don't like them at all either. They act like a wild bull in a porcelain shop, and also seem to be written as a deliberate anti-Thor troll-fic.
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It seems to go out of its way to belittle Thor or his substitute Beta-Ray-Bill. Since Thor is a million years old and is fighting the elder gods, Hadad had to inexplicably be a billion years old and vastly superior to all the elder gods; since Thor defeated the multiverse-devouring Black Winter, that feat had to be belittled by making multiple "Black Winters" minions of Hadad; Beta-Ray-Bill was offhandedly beaten by Hadad; Thor's hammer was shown shattered in the Rogue Storm comicbook while ironically stating "the greatest god who ever lived", etc.
The writer definitely seems to have a massive chip on his shoulder that drives him to strive to not just wank Storm to ridiculous extremes, but belittle Thor as much as he can get away with in combination.
The writer definitely seems to have a massive chip on his shoulder that drives him to strive to not just wank Storm to ridiculous extremes, but belittle Thor as much as he can get away with in combination.
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This kind of story reflects a major problem with Marvel and DC Comics: they always want to go bigger, with so-called epic grandeur, major cosmic villains, and a cosmology upheaval or change, involving well known entities like Oblivion or the One Above All just to highlight the threat of another being. When it's well written, it can be good, but when it's not, it's simply messy.I don't like them at all either. They act like a wild bull in a porcelain shop, and also seem to be written as a deliberate anti-Thor troll-fic.
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Hm. I do agree we need to be careful consistency wise with the merge. From what I've constantly read of DeMatteis' Comics:
So, with all of that, the biggest issue that can't easily be explained away is the Fallen Stars/Men of Lineage/Divine Creator... We'll need to discuss those more. Everything else can be put into the cosmology just fine.
- I would say the description of the Multiverse can remain the same, as well as the possible worlds, as Marvel goes into that concept a few times.
- Eternity being portrayed as above Duality should stay. It lines right back up with him being superior to In-Betweener outright, who is the most blatant example of a Logical Contradiction/Self-Referential Paradox of Everything/Nothing I think a comic could realistically portray in that manner.
- The Nexus encompassing all of creation also should stay, that's a consistent plot point even in recent comics. Nothing really contradicts that. Same with the Nexus being described in contradiction/paradox, that's explicitly how Thanos describes it when confronting In-Betweener as the union of Master Order/Lord Chaos, which unfortunately the Thanos comics are still canon, they are directly referenced even in current time.
- Universe encompassing All of Duality ? Again, covered with In-Betweener, so that should be fine.
So, with all of that, the biggest issue that can't easily be explained away is the Fallen Stars/Men of Lineage/Divine Creator... We'll need to discuss those more. Everything else can be put into the cosmology just fine.
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Minor Bump
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I remember that during the thread where Wanda was upgraded to H 1-A, it was because she defeated the true form of The Griever, which was confirmed in multiple interviews, including a very clear confirmation from the writer himself.
But then some website admins and parts of the fanbase argued against it, saying they don’t judge based on the writer’s statements, but on what “makes sense” within the story. They even claimed they were smarter than Marvel writers and more knowledgeable than Al Ewing. So my question is: why isn’t that same reasoning being applied here?
Because if anything, this is exactly the case where that logic should be used—especially since Storm’s comic completely wrecks the cosmology on a massive level. Honestly, I think we need to separate things properly. The high-tier cosmology that J.M. wrote exists outside of The Mystery, which is likely why no one has really touched it again—it’s simply too large in scale. And that actually lines up with the idea that TOAA cannot perceive beings that exist above him.
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Doesn't wiki already ignores stuff like avengers: beyond? I don't why not also ignore storm comic, consider how many problems it have. And as I already wrote, Dematteis scaling is a mess which I don't know how got accepted.
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Yep it's sad to see how oblivion has been downgraded over the years but if the merge occurs he has to be number 2 after the divine creator of course.
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Yes, but unfortunately I fear that Oblivion and even the One Above All are no longer treated as before. It's heavily implied that there might be forces above the One Above All, with stories such as Infinity Final, Hulk (2025), Defenders Beyond.
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If we merge oblivion can have an unconscious mind of God key. The one above all can just stay as he is. Scier, Cleito, Fallen stars, young Franklin Richards and Job Burke are above the one above all.
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The dematteis scaling is actually sound. Problems ensue when try to fit it in mainline continuity of which is radically different. But a merge can be done.
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The best thing to do, if a merger is possible, is to retain only the elements that are sufficiently consistent with the mainline continuity.
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Well, please carefully consider if this is truly a good idea, and exactly how we should apply it in that case.
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Dematteis have same hierarchies as other Marvel writers, well he obliviously writes more about worlds within worlds and dreams within dreams than other writers but his ideas and concepts still used by knowledgeable writers like Al Ewing and Dan Slott. It just Goofy Dematteis scaling wrong, which as I understand it, was accepted.
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I remember Ultima once saying that she didn’t really see much impact from Marvel getting downgraded. It was probably in one of Goofy’s threads or something, before she disappeared for good.Well, please carefully consider if this is truly a good idea, and exactly how we should apply it in that case.
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I’m just saying that the downgrade turned out to be the complete opposite of what Ultima wrote, because the characters—and the cosmology as a whole—ended up being weakened on a totally different level, like night and day.
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I think before cosmology split it was better than now. multiversal abstracts being High 1-A (in my opinion) make more sense
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One of these days I might just redo Goofy's upgrade thread, unless Ultima ever gets around to reopening and concluding it
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So is merge accepted or what? I don't see any reason why this should continue, considering that Goofy left the wiki and most Marvel supporters against split.
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Ultima will work in a Dark Tower Cosmology revision, IIRC.
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Just an update: right now, Steve the current Scarlet Witch solo writer is bringing Nemesis, a character originally created by J.M., back as the villain in her solo run. That alone already makes it pretty clear there was never any cosmology split to begin with, not even once, unless it was explicitly stated.
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