Tier 1 Rex Salazar upgrade [ACCEPTED]

[FinePoint]

@FinePoint Kindly read the arguments from both the sides and then give a solid opinion.

I think both sides are valid.

I'd still support a 'likely' or 'possibly' Low 1-C.

A solid rating seems a bit too dubious for Firestorm's reasons.

 

[Hellformer]

I think both sides are valid.

I'd still support a 'likely' or 'possibly' Low 1-C.

A solid rating seems a bit too dubious for Firestorm's reasons.

Firestorm's reasons are quite literally assumptions without any solid evidence. It's no where explicitly stated that timestream refers to a singular space-time continuum, while on the other side, my reasons have 3-4 supporting factors, so I personally see it as a solid rating.

Could you please validate any of Firestorm's reasons? Like if they are backed up by explicit evidence, the way in which I have provided scans.

 

[Firestorm808]

Firestorm's reasons are quite literally assumptions without any solid evidence. It's no where explicitly stated that timestream refers to a singular space-time continuum and my reasons have 3-4 supporting factors, so I personally see it as a solid rating.
Could you please validate any of Firestorm's reasons? Like if they are backed up by explicit evidence, the way in which I have provided scans.

It is not an assumption that the phrase "timestream" is used alongside interactions with a single space-time continuum.

Do you have Generator Rex depicting interaction with infinite/uncountably infinite timelines?

 

[Hellformer]

It is not an assumption that the phrase "timestream" is used alongside interactions with a single space-time continuum.

Do you have Generator Rex depicting interaction with infinite/uncountably infinite timelines?

There's no need for such considering the functionality of both the structures are shown similar by 3-4 factors.

So unless you prove that timelines or even singular space-times can behave as such, then according to Occam's razor it is same as the regular timestream by default.

 

[Firestorm808]

There's no need for such considering the functionality of both the structures are shown similar by 3-4 factors.

So unless you prove that timelines or even singular space-times can behave as such, then according to Occam's razor it is same as the regular timestream by default.

Just because the phrase "timestream" is used, that doesn't mean it's taking about the entire structure.

These characters have only ever known and interacted with a small part of an uncountably infinite whole.

 

[Hellformer]

Just because the phrase "timestream" is used, that doesn't mean it's taking about the entire structure.

These characters have only ever known and interacted with a small part of an uncountably infinite whole.

The point of this thread doesn't solely rely on the term itself, but instead on the term as well as supporting factors which I've highlighted in the previous page.
So unless you prove that those supporting factors hold true for singular space-times, I wouldn't consider my interpretation ambiguous.

 

[Firestorm808]

Further staff input on this thread is appreciated:
@DarkDragonMedeus
@ActuallySpaceMan42
@Elizhaa
@AKM sama
@Theglassman12
@Imaginym
@Armorchompy
@Damage3245
@Elizio33
@Planck69

 

[Imaginym]

I don't really know GR, & while I know of it & Ben 10 (They're both good serieses.), I don't really know their cosmology, & while the OP looks simple, it seems like there's been some contention here, no? Since the thread went to 4 pages & is concerning Tier 1 matters.

Given that, especially given that staff have been called, it may be good to provide a summary/explanation of the arguments & points of debate.

 

[Hellformer]

I don't really know GR, & while I know of it & Ben 10 (They're both good serieses.), I don't really know their cosmology, & while the OP looks simple, it seems like there's been some contention here, no? Since the thread went to 4 pages & is concerning Tier 1 matters.

Given that, especially given that staff have been called, it may be good to provide a summary/explanation of the arguments & points of debate.

My initial premise (scans in the OP):

• The Meta Nanites are presented as having a higher information of space-time, matter, anti-matter, energy, gravity, etc and provides its user absolute control over everything, beyond the reach of any other character in Gen Rex who admit to be weaker and less powerful than it. The nanites can rip apart the fabric of existence.
• Van Kleiss was shown to travel in the timestream/River of time/Fabric of existence with the help of breach who became one with it (she was everywhere and everywhen in the timestream or omnipresent within it) and yet Van Kleiss considers the nanites more powerful and worthy than anyone else, therefore the absolute control extends to the timestream (which is Low 1-C)

Firestorm's reasoning:

• The Timestream is Gen Rex refers to a singular space-time continuum (no scans)
• Characters haven't shown to have knowledge of alternate timelines (uncountable number of them to be precise) therefore the meta nanites don't scale to it.

My Rebuttal:

• The Timestream in Gen Rex is shown to have exact same properties of that in Ben 10, such as:
  • Timestream can be accessed in both the franchises by FTL time travel ability.
  • Timestream's physical description is said to be as a river of time by knowledgeable members in both the franchises.
  • Timestream in both the franchises erases a certain character who is the root cause of altering/tampering the history.
• Despite all the evidence, Firestorm disagreed so I asked him to prove if singular space-time continuums (as per his claim) share same properties as highlighted above. If not, then by Occam's razor, the easiest explaination is considered the correct one.

 

[Firestorm808]

Given that, especially given that staff have been called, it may be good to provide a summary/explanation of the arguments & points of debate.

My Stance and Observations:

• The Timestream as a whole is accepted to have uncountably infinite timelines, "rivers" if you will. Yes, Generator Rex and Ben 10 share the same cosmology. However, the scope of their interaction is drastically different.
• At the time that the Meta-Nanites were created, scientists were still unsure about parallel dimensions. If scientists had created a God Code to control the universe, I have doubts that it's sphere of influence would include those parallel dimensions/multiple timelines they are unsure of, let alone "uncountably larger" structures.
• In Generator Rex, they use the phrases "timestream" and "fabric of the universe" but the characters are only interacting with their own timeline (1 Timeline) which includes traveling from past, present, and future, of the same timeline.
• These "timestream" and "fabric of the universe" statements were made in 2013. Ben 10 Omniverse didn't use these terms to refer and depict a Low 1-C structure until 2014.
• Just because the phrase "timestream" and "fabric of the universe" are used in Generator Rex, that doesn't mean it's taking about the entire structure. The characters are not aware that such a structure truly exists.
• At this time, there are no signs of "uncountably larger" dimensions or structures being involved with the narrative of Generator Rex.
• The proposal then jumps to that the Omega Nanites can affect an uncountable number of timelines.
• I do not see enough justification to say that the Meta Nanites can affect uncountably infinite timelines based on the interaction from just one timeline.

 

[Reiner04]

I don't really know GR, & while I know of it & Ben 10 (They're both good serieses.), I don't really know their cosmology, & while the OP looks simple, it seems like there's been some contention here, no? Since the thread went to 4 pages & is concerning Tier 1 matters.

Given that, especially given that staff have been called, it may be good to provide a summary/explanation of the arguments & points of debate.

Basically, the disagreement in this thread comes down to a difference in interpretation.

While Generator Rex and Ben 10 share the same cosmology, the context differs. Unlike in Ben 10, no one in the Rex dimension has ever traveled outside their own dimension or shown awareness of the full scale of the cosmology; in fact, they haven't even visited another dimension besides their own.
Van Kleiss used the word 'Timestream' to describe how Breach had been following him across time. In Ben 10, the Timestream is a Tier 1 structure, so whenever that term is used, it refers to a Tier 1 scale. The OP is claiming the same should apply to the Rex dimension's statements regarding timestream. However, the opposition (myself and Firestorm) argues that these characters lack knowledge of the full cosmology. Therefore, we shouldn't interpret the 'Timestream' statement in the same context as the Ben 10 version as they arent shown to be aware of entirety of it.

For example, if Ben talks about the 'cosmos,' he is referring to all of existence. But when Rex refers to the 'cosmos,' he is likely only referring to his own dimension. The same logic should apply to the 'Timestream' argument.

 

[Hellformer]

• These "timestream" and "fabric of the universe" statements were made in 2013. Ben 10 Omniverse didn't use these terms to refer and depict a Low 1-C structure until 2014.

"The timestream" and "fabric of universe/space-time" were used in Paradox's debut episode, in 2008.

 

[Hellformer]

Basically, the disagreement in this thread comes down to a difference in interpretation.

While Generator Rex and Ben 10 share the same cosmology, the context differs. Unlike in Ben 10, no one in the Rex dimension has ever traveled outside their own dimension or shown awareness of the full scale of the cosmology; in fact, they haven't even visited another dimension besides their own.
Van Kleiss used the word 'Timestream' to describe how Breach had been following him across time. In Ben 10, the Timestream is a Tier 1 structure, so whenever that term is used, it refers to a Tier 1 scale. The OP is claiming the same should apply to the Rex dimension's statements regarding timestream. However, the opposition (myself and Firestorm) argues that these characters lack knowledge of the full cosmology. Therefore, we shouldn't interpret the 'Timestream' statement in the same context as the Ben 10 version as they arent shown to be aware of entirety of it.

My stance isn't just "the term exists so it should be same by default", but instead I've provided supporting reasons for both the structures behaving exactly same which is why my conclusion is meta nanites scaling to the timestream.

 

[Firestorm808]

"The timestream" and "fabric of universe/space-time" were used in Paradox's debut episode, in 2008.

The point is that the Generator Rex Characters saying these phrases have no in-universe knowledge or context of the uncountably infinite timelines for this to be implied meaning of their statements.

Yes or no? Do either Rex Salazar, Van Kleiss, Doc Holiday, or White Knight know about the many timelines existing?

My stance isn't just "the term exists so it should be same by default", but instead I've provided supporting reasons for both the structures behaving exactly same which is why my conclusion is meta nanites scaling to the timestream.

Break this down for us step by step. What do you mean by structures behaving the same, so they scale?

 

[Hellformer]

The point is that the Generator Rex Characters saying these phrases have no in-universe knowledge or context of the uncountably infinite timelines for this to be implied meaning of their statements.

Yes or no? Do either Rex Salazar, Van Kleiss, Doc Holiday, or White Knight know about the many timelines existing?

I've already explained previously why that logic is flawed, but let's take another example. So Paradox in his debut episode explains that he has been criss crossing the timestream for dozens of times.
Now the question arises, would you consider the timestream in his statement as the one we already know, or purposely assume it to be limited to Ben's Dimension just because it was not described as a larger tree of uncountably infinite timelines?

It's quite obvious that his statement would mean the timestream that we know of, the author intent for the word Timestream has been very explicit in Ben 10, and considering the authors are almost same (Joe Kelly, Duncan, etc), you can't assume timestream in Gen Rex to be something else, unless there exists solid evidence for such.

Break this down for us step by step. What do you mean by structures behaving the same, so they scale?

Did that in the last page and even summarised it for Imaginym, in this very page.

• The Timestream in Gen Rex is shown to have exact same properties of that in Ben 10, such as:
  • Timestream can be accessed in both the franchises by FTL time travel ability.
  • Timestream's physical description is said to be as a river of time by knowledgeable members in both the franchises.
  • Timestream in both the franchises erases a certain character who is the root cause of altering/tampering the history.

@Imaginym Just to mention something more, the authors of Ben 10 and GR are somewhat common, and the term timestream has always been explicit in Ben 10, without any second meaning. So to assume that it means different, just because the concept of alternate timelines wasn't talked about in the series, seems to be a misinterpretation of author intent and purposely trying to make things complex.

 

[Hellformer]

Before I close this for a minute, I should write this:

The Ben 10 series and Secret Saturdays are in the same universe, and the same things are mentioned in both series. Why wouldn't the same be true for the Gen Rex series, which shares the same cosmology even though they aren't in the same universe?

Secret Saturdays also features Animo and Hex. Are we saying it's not the one from Ben 10, for example?

Galvan Prime was mentioned. Are we saying it's not the Galvan Prime from Ben 10, but something else?

Simply put, there's a statement that says the Omnitrix provides protection against nanites. If the terms in Rex's series don't apply to Ben 10, what nanite is being mentioned here?

According to the Man of Action Panel 2012 , they say that Ben must have brought nanites with him when he returned to his own universe. I found it on the wiki. At what point do they say this? They didn't mention it.

So it is very likely that the same timestream will be present in both series.

These points are very useful as well, if we go on applying the same logic to Secret Saturdays which shares the same universe with Ben 10, then things turn out to be too confusing and would eventually sound hypocritical.
@Imaginym @FinePoint

 

[Firestorm808]

I've already explained previously why that logic is flawed

I'll take that as a "no" to my question, then. So we agree that Rex Salazar, Van Kleiss, Doc Holiday, or White Knight do not have in-universe knowledge about all of space-time.

So Paradox in his debut episode explains that he has been criss crossing the timestream for dozens of times.
Now the question arises, would you consider the timestream in his statement as the one we already know, or purposely assume it to be limited to Ben's Dimension just because it was not described as a larger tree of uncountably infinite timelines?

The key difference for Paradox's statements is that he's a reliable source on the topic. He's spent many years learning about all of space-time. The Generator Rex characters are not reliable sources on the topic of all of space-time.

• The Timestream in Gen Rex is shown to have exact same properties of that in Ben 10, such as:
  • Timestream can be accessed in both the franchises by FTL time travel ability.
  • Timestream's physical description is said to be as a river of time by knowledgeable members in both the franchises.
  • Timestream in both the franchises erases a certain character who is the root cause of altering/tampering the history.

This gives no distinction between the uncountable structure as a whole vs an individual part of that structure. What you provide here can just as easily apply to just one timeline of the whole structure.

A person capable of leaving, changing, or having "river" analogies of their individual timelines has no bearing on the uncountable whole of the structure.

 

[Hellformer]

I'll take that as a "no" to my question, then. So we agree that Rex Salazar, Van Kleiss, Doc Holiday, or White Knight do not have in-universe knowledge about all of space-time.

Repeating the same topic doesn't mean it's a no or smth. I've explained why the timestream doesn't have any 2nd meaning

The key difference for Paradox's statements is that he's a reliable source on the topic. He's spent many years learning about all of space-time. The Generator Rex characters are not reliable sources on the topic of all of space-time.

You're still hinging on the point of GR characters being extremely unreliable when timestream doesn't have a 2nd meaning. Even then, "All of space-time" doesn't include all of timestream it includes the space-times of other universes as well which Paradox is aware of while GR characters are aware of the space-time of their own timestream. So I'm not claiming that GR characters are super intelligent of the all encompassing Omniversal Force, but instead only limited to the timestream which you view as something extremely stretched despite not being very impressive as compared to the entire cosmology.

This gives no distinction between the uncountable structure as a whole vs an individual part of that structure. What you provide here can just as easily apply to just one timeline of the whole structure.

A person capable of leaving, changing, or having "river" analogies of their individual timelines has no bearing on the uncountable whole of the structure.

That's what I'm asking you for, kindly prove how timelines share the same properties as the timestream. You haven't provided single evidence for that.

 

[Firestorm808]

That's what I'm asking you for, kindly prove how timelines share the same properties as the timestream. You haven't provided single evidence for that.

Uncountable Infinite Timelines make-up the Timestream Structure, no?

 

[Jag50]

My thing in this so far is that between you two, Hellformer is the only one that's been providing scans of the individuals canons for his point.

 

[FinePoint]

These points are very useful as well, if we go on applying the same logic to Secret Saturdays which shares the same universe with Ben 10, then things turn out to be too confusing and would eventually sound hypocritical.

I don't speak Spanish.

 

[Reiner04]

My thing in this so far is that between you two, Hellformer is the only one that's been providing scans of the individuals canons for his point.

Providing scans is not the only thing necessary for an argument, the relevance of those scans is just as important. I have always been aware of Van Kleiss's Timestream statement, but considering how little interaction the Rex dimension has with other dimensions, actually none (with one exception), their statements regarding the cosmos, timestream, or universes aren't as credible as those from Ben 10. If they were shown awareness of greater cosmos then sure.

 

[Jag50]

Providing scans is not the only thing necessary for an argument, the relevance of those scans is just as important. I have always been aware of Van Kleiss's Timestream statement, but considering how little interaction the Rex dimension has with other dimensions, actually none (with one exception), their statements regarding the cosmos, timestream, or universes aren't as credible as those from Ben 10. If they were shown awareness of greater cosmos then sure.

Wasn't a plot point of Heroes United that Rex's brother casually found an unnamed dimension (The Null Void) and tossed Alpha inside of it as if it was a casual thing for him?

 

[Jag50]

HuI don't speak Spanish.

Huh?

 

[FinePoint]

Huh?

One of the scans is in Spanish with no translation.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Wasn't a plot point of Heroes United that Rex's brother casually found an unnamed dimension (The Null Void) and tossed Alpha inside of it as if it was a casual thing for him?

You remember correctly. Rex's brother, Cezar, was able to open a portal to NullVoid. So these characters are aware of the existence of Ben's dimension.

These points are very useful as well, if we go on applying the same logic to Secret Saturdays which shares the same universe with Ben 10, then things turn out to be too confusing and would eventually sound hypocritical.

Since there isn't a character in the SS series who influences the cosmology, it shouldn't be a problem.

I've started making profiles for The Secret Saturdays, by the way.

 

[Jag50]

You remember correctly. Rex's brother, Cezar, was able to open a portal to NullVoid. So these characters are aware of the existence of Ben's dimension.

Since there isn't a character in the SS series who influences the cosmology, it shouldn't be a problem.

I've started making profiles for The Secret Saturdays, by the way.

Okay because I'm pretty sure Caesar is very much aware of varying dimensions and is single handedly the smartest character in the series to a cartoonish degree.

Even Van Kleiss, who is the prime talking point of this revision, falls short of what Caesar just blatantly knows.

 

[Reiner04]

Wasn't a plot point of Heroes United that Rex's brother casually found an unnamed dimension (The Null Void) and tossed Alpha inside of it as if it was a casual thing for him?

That is why I mentioned 'except once' in my post. He created a gun that closely resembles the Null Void gun but isn't exactly the same, it creates a spacetime rift to send objects from his dimension to another. As admitted throughout the episode, controlling the destination is not easy, which is why it was stated they would never meet again. While a device like that is no longer a major feat in Ben’s universe, it remains the peak of interdimensional interaction for the Rex universe. This is basically negligible compared to the scale of greater cosmology. That is the whole point, there is little to no notable interaction between the Rex dimension and the greater cosmology to find timestream like statement from Rex's dimension been given the same context as Ben's dimension.

 

[Reiner04]

Since there isn't a character in the SS series who influences the cosmology, it shouldn't be a problem.

I've started making profiles for The Secret Saturdays, by the way.

We, since always, don't take statements of characters seriously who has not shown expertise in the areas they are making statements on or atleast unless their statements has been supported by different casts consistently.

Wiki's official Example:

Option 2: The person is an educated wizard who has been researching this character and experimenting on him with his most destructive magic. In this case, the source is more reliable, but still not completely believable. He is stated to be invincible. In truth, he is only invincible in comparison to whatever this wizard could dish out. A low fantasy "indestructible" is our city-block level.

 

[Jag50]

That is why I mentioned 'except once' in my post. He created a gun that closely resembles the Null Void gun but isn't exactly the same, it creates a spacetime rift to send objects from his dimension to another. As admitted throughout the episode, controlling the destination is not easy, which is why it was stated they would never meet again. While a device like that is no longer a major feat in Ben’s universe, it remains the peak of interdimensional interaction for the Rex universe. This is basically negligible compared to the scale of greater cosmology. That is the whole point, there is little to no notable interaction between the Rex dimension and the greater cosmology to find timestream like statement from Rex's dimension been given the same context as Ben's dimension.

 

[Reiner04]

Device is different, not the dimensional disruptor and the point i stated in my previous quote. This is the peak of interdimensional interaction in Rex's dimension. Not even outside of universe but merely few dimensions.

 

[Jag50]

That's weird. Does this site delete stuff sometimes because I didn't do that.

 

[Reiner04]

That's weird. Does this site delete stuff sometimes because I didn't do that.

Could be some glitch. I undeleted yer post.

 

[Imaginym]

Pardon my asking, please, but do we have a vote tally for the opening post?

I think both sides are valid.

I'd still support a 'likely' or 'possibly' Low 1-C.

A solid rating seems a bit too dubious for Firestorm's reasons.

I'm kind of the same. Not sure which to support or oppose.

 

[Hellformer]

Uncountable Infinite Timelines make-up the Timestream Structure, no?

Yes they do

Pardon my asking, please, but do we have a vote tally for the opening post?

I'm kind of the same. Not sure which to support or oppose.

Agree: @Imaginym @FinePoint (Both for a likely rating)
Disagree: @Firestorm808 @Reiner04
Neutral: None

 

[Hellformer]

My thing in this so far is that between you two, Hellformer is the only one that's been providing scans of the individuals canons for his point.

Not just scans, it's also about assuming extremely high end interpretations to be true, like the meaning of timestream capping at Low 2-C dimension when the authors of both the shows are somewhat common, who have always used the term in an explicit manner.

 

[Firestorm808]

My thing in this so far is that between you two, Hellformer is the only one that's been providing scans of the individuals canons for his point.

We aren't debating canon.

We are examining if the interpretations of the provided scans and what not are logical conclusions.

None of my arguments require scans because I'm crossexamining the logic of the proposal.

 

[Firestorm808]

Not just scans, it's also about assuming extremely high end interpretations to be true, like the meaning of timestream capping at Low 2-C dimension when the authors of both the shows are somewhat common, who have always used the term in an explicit manner.

What are you talking about?

Aren't you the one proposing that the high end Low 1-C interpretation of the statements to be true?

Low 2-C is the conservative interpretation.

 

[Hellformer]

What are you talking about?

Aren't you the one proposing that the high end Low 1-C interpretation of the statements to be true?

Low 2-C is the conservative interpretation.

By "High-End", I don't mean higher end scaling or higher tier. What I really mean is a non sensical assumption of a certain term which the authors have never used in a way in which you're thinking. So overall what the implication of my statement was that I'm going with what's consistent with the common property of the said structure along with author intent, instead of high end assumptions.

 

[ABSOLUTE-ABSTRACT-KING]

The thing we are calling Low 2-C is timeline, not timestream